Vegas: The US is Not Mature Enough for Guns
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.MASSHOLE.
Active member
13841658:coolflash8 said:
He's American, and a rather well educated one at that.
coolflash8
Active member
13841693:.MASSHOLE. said:
No he isn't
.MASSHOLE.
Active member
13841705:coolflash8 said:
I've yet to see you make a logical point in this thread...He on the other hand has made many.
Whether or not you agree with them is a different story.
You're just trying to invalidate his points by claiming he isn't American. He was born in NY state, it doesn't get much more 'Murican than that.
SendyMcSendyface
Active member
Time to jump into this clusterfuck and start slingin some shit. I love guns guns. I love shooting. I fucking love the 2A. But we can't ignore the basic facts. Guns kill people. What's more, it's obvious that the USA has a problem. But the problem is not guns. It is mental health, poverty and lack of education. These all result in suicides, gang violence and mass shootings. America has a gun problem because of these things. Yes, there are always gonna be nutcases out there who desire to do harm to others. And there will always be gangs, crime, and suicide. And in the aftermath of Vegas, and every similar event, I see lots of people, mostly on the right, trying to normalize these events. And, maybe they may be normal. But just because they are normal, doesn't mean that it is right, or that we have to accept that as the norm. To use an overused quote, "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." And yes, it is time for good men to do something.
Regulating what kinds of guns people can buy, or how many is not the way to do it. Our guns are our safeguard against tryanny. But we can place controls on who can own guns. There should be a national firearm license. You should have to take a basic safety course, and have proof of stable mental health. (Plus the usual background checks and shit). This, plus improved mental health care should take care of part of the problem (suicides, mass shootings).
Gang violence and other crime is still an issue. As evidenced in Australia, the bad guys will always find ways to get guns. Making sure the good guys also have guns is a start, but just keeps the circle of violence going. Improving the education system won't shut down the gangs. But it should reduce the numbers of young dudes joining them. With less new recruits, the gangs will shrink. But this will take a while.
We can't let ourselves be caught in the cycle of useless knee-jerk reactions like California and NY, and if we want this to really stop, its gonna take work, and time. And we won't see results right away. But people won't shoot eachother or themselves if they have no reason too. And taking away their motive means the government won't take out guns. And I can sit in the backyard and blast little furry critters in peace.
**This post was edited on Oct 3rd 2017 at 11:04:27pm
Regulating what kinds of guns people can buy, or how many is not the way to do it. Our guns are our safeguard against tryanny. But we can place controls on who can own guns. There should be a national firearm license. You should have to take a basic safety course, and have proof of stable mental health. (Plus the usual background checks and shit). This, plus improved mental health care should take care of part of the problem (suicides, mass shootings).
Gang violence and other crime is still an issue. As evidenced in Australia, the bad guys will always find ways to get guns. Making sure the good guys also have guns is a start, but just keeps the circle of violence going. Improving the education system won't shut down the gangs. But it should reduce the numbers of young dudes joining them. With less new recruits, the gangs will shrink. But this will take a while.
We can't let ourselves be caught in the cycle of useless knee-jerk reactions like California and NY, and if we want this to really stop, its gonna take work, and time. And we won't see results right away. But people won't shoot eachother or themselves if they have no reason too. And taking away their motive means the government won't take out guns. And I can sit in the backyard and blast little furry critters in peace.
**This post was edited on Oct 3rd 2017 at 11:04:27pm
50Kal
Active member
Just throwing out ideas but I'm sure someone will argue them....
If you want to be considered a private gun seller you have to sell less then 15 guns a year.
If you are selling more than that you should be considered a gun dealer and be required to do a universal background checks on your clientele. Expemptions could be made for flintlock guns or single shot guns.
The idea is no one is selling large amounts of guns without a universal background check. Local folks who trust each other (to certain degree) could sell guns no problem but the random nut jobs/bad guy going to a legit gun seller would reduce as they need a full background checks.
Yes I know, "nut jobs/ bad guy would just buy illegally". But wouldn't doing something along the lines give some type of drop in the amount of mass murders?
We are currently not trying to stop every single bad person in the country, but at least trying to reduce the number of these mass killings incidents.
Is a perfect idea ...no but just trying to think of something instead of just saying "oh well"....
If you want to be considered a private gun seller you have to sell less then 15 guns a year.
If you are selling more than that you should be considered a gun dealer and be required to do a universal background checks on your clientele. Expemptions could be made for flintlock guns or single shot guns.
The idea is no one is selling large amounts of guns without a universal background check. Local folks who trust each other (to certain degree) could sell guns no problem but the random nut jobs/bad guy going to a legit gun seller would reduce as they need a full background checks.
Yes I know, "nut jobs/ bad guy would just buy illegally". But wouldn't doing something along the lines give some type of drop in the amount of mass murders?
We are currently not trying to stop every single bad person in the country, but at least trying to reduce the number of these mass killings incidents.
Is a perfect idea ...no but just trying to think of something instead of just saying "oh well"....
Casey
Active member
13841937:50Kal said:
Actually the state of Washington requires a background check on any firearm transaction as of a couple years ago. Shortly after the passage of the bill there was a military coup and authoritarian tyranny won the day. We then replaced our state Constitution with Sharia Law and increased the income tax to 100%. Thanks Obama
onenerdykid
Active member
13841645:coolflash8 said:
Bahahaha, nice try. Maybe next time try doing your homework first.
onenerdykid
Active member
13841682:.frenchy said:
If an idea is a good idea, it should be able to withstand criticism from anyone, not just those who have had the accidental fortune (or misfortune) to be born in a certain country. Besides, I'm sure you have plenty opinions about how Canada conducts its government or about Sharia Law in Saudi Arabia. Do your opinions about those matters not count simply because you weren't born in those countries? Of course not, your opinions and ideas concerning each would be true/false regardless of where you are from.
GayWolf420
Active member
If you dont think that something needs to be done then i dont know what the fuck to tell you. This goes for both regulation of guns and mental health. This cannot keep happening, and we cannot live in a fucking world where our own children and ourselves fear for their lives when they go out to in public.
I understand that this is a delicate issue for gun owners and im not saying you all need to line up and drop your guns off to the government and some shit, but just understand that honestly there should be no fucking reason animals like this should be in possesion of items that can commit massacres like this.
something needs to be done, and we all need to wake the fuck up.
I understand that this is a delicate issue for gun owners and im not saying you all need to line up and drop your guns off to the government and some shit, but just understand that honestly there should be no fucking reason animals like this should be in possesion of items that can commit massacres like this.
something needs to be done, and we all need to wake the fuck up.
.frenchy
Active member
TOAST.
Active member
13841971:TOAST. said:
And by generally for the 2A I mean i think people should be able to own guns but am in favor a tighter background checks and maybe more restrictions. (dont think this would have helped in this case). Also anything used to increase the firing rate of a semi auto should be treated the same as if buying a fully auto.
milk_man
Active member
13841955:pow_pow~ said:
Ehh maybe. When a gun is purchased 'legally' by someone but they are buying it for someone who can't legally buy it, that's illegal. But it happens so so much.. most of the time for legitimate reasons but in the inner cities I'm sure it happens with not so good of intentions from the end users..
TheDoughAbides
Active member
13842003:iFlip said:
I disagree. One asshole killed 60 people and wounded 600 others in less than half an hour. The bump stock effectively makes the rifle automatic.
13842086:.frenchy said:
Things need to change, NRA sure as fuck isn't going to support that, you cool with this shit happening all the time alex? Because somethings gotta give here, these mass shootings need to stop. I'm not saying we should ban guns, but I think 2A needs to be amended to accommodate our current society. 2A was great in 1776, not so much in 2017...
losh
Active member
Can people stop with the whole "cars kill more people but those aren't banned BS" or "lets ban McDonlds because of heart disease" arguments? I hear this so much and it is easily the most ignorant argument I think I've ever heard on the topic. When i get behind the wheel I know exactly what im signing up for, i understand i can slide off the road, or get T-boned. But you don't go to a concert with the mentality that there is a high likelihood of a fucking wackjob unloading a gun in your head, and lighting up 500+ people. Think before you speak. I love mexican food, but if mexican food was consistently violently murdering people I would probably stop eating Mexican food and start thinking about why it's happening. (I understand the Mexican food argument is kinda over simplified but you get the point). that being said, I love guns and have been shooting guns for years and never gave gun laws much thought but i do think it's time to get more serious. But like other people said i think the problem is much less about the guns, and more about controlling who can get their hands on them, along with sensible gun laws.
just my 2 sense take it for what its worth.
just my 2 sense take it for what its worth.
.frenchy
Active member
13842091:eheath said:
awh come on man i usually agree with you. NRA is the only reason we have alot of our gun rights, they really do fight for our second amendment rights. the guns used were illegal so any further gun restrictions wouldnt have done anything. please dont try and make my states gun laws any stricter. As an army active duty service member i cant even buy ammo in CT. something is wrong there, good thing my dad is buying thousands of .556 rounds for me online with his pistol permit
NRA is GOAT
13842107:.frenchy said:
Why do you or your dad need guns? Hunting rifles, hand guns and shotguns IMO aren't the problem, its the mass amount of semi-automatic rifles like AR15s that are completely useless outside of a hobby at the shooting range. Is it worth it to have a hobby that allows people to commit mass murders?
And this guy was using legal weapons with modification, as stated on many news sites. Sure, if he had fully automatic weapons, thats understandable, but I've been led to believe through many sources he acquired his guns legally.
A2 was created so that the US citizens could fight the government if they turned on them, now that its 2017, even if every citizen had an automatic weapon, the government would just bomb us with drones. The idea behind A2 is finished, its not the 18th century anymore.
.frenchy
Active member
13842110:eheath said:
Youd be surprised what the civilians could do against a tyranical government, minutemen type shit like the revolutionary war would really pack a punch. I love my AR15 and its the same thing as my m4 carbine I have in the army. My next gun is an AR-10, an ar-15 is 7.62 form pretty much (SCAR)
13842139:.frenchy said:
"I'm going to vote for people who take away my freedoms, but I'm totally going to stand in the street and overthrow the government with my AR15" - seems legit.
A lot of guns are just toys to people. Even if they respect them, lock them up etc, why do they really want some of these? It's like the super soaker of nerf gun you had as a kid. People just want to go fire off a bunch of rounds and feel cool.
God forbid anything infringes on that.
"It don't matter what happened over thurrr as long as I still got ma freedoms! Red white and blueeeee!"
profa_212
Active member
13842110:eheath said:
i mean i know plenty of people that use AR-15s for stuff other than plinking targets. Plenty of ranchers use them for coyotes and stuff. But yeah point noted. Most are just for fun, and they are very fun haha. Modifications that allow that high rate of fire should not be legal. They are just unnecessary IMO, and really have no use other than mowing down people. Would it have stopped him from making one or getting modifications like that Illegally? probably not. How hard is it to make a fertilizer bomb? same shit. Rifles are some fairly simple machines, and no matter what you outlaw modifications like these are going to be able to be made if somebody really wants to.
As for your second point, look at the middle east, they have been fucking with the US military for what? 15+ years. Yes we drop missiles on their heads like its candy, but it doesnt stop them. Lets say that 25% of the US turned on the Government, that is 81 million people. Al queda has a "core" membership of 1000ish, and they have been fucking shit for a while. ISIL has anywhere of up to 100,000. Can you imagine if they had 81 million? not to mention if they were running around chicago or new york where a missle strike on a highrise means thousands of innocents dying? Also, the US military consists of only 2ish million people total, including reserves.
Meh, civil war isn't going to happen IMO, but it is pretty interesting to think of some logistics behind it. it would be some crazy shit.
TheDoughAbides
Active member
13842139:.frenchy said:
TheDoughAbides
Active member
13842184:theabortionator said:
Sarcasm?
13842194:TheDoughAbides said:
I'm not sure
"If he didn’t have a gun, he would have found another way. He probably would have drove a truck out of his 32nd story window and right into those poor souls, killing just as many."
"And speaking of high, the 32nd floor is pretty damn high. If you dropped a penny on someone from that high up, it could penetrate their skull and they’d be dead instantly.
You can purchase a semi-automatic weapon for $1000 and illegally mod it to become fully automatic, or buy a legal attachable crank to simulate automatic fire. Throw in a tripod for stabilization and a thousand rounds of ammo and you’re at $1500. Do the math. That’s 150,000 pennies!"
milk_man
Active member
13842110:eheath said:
There are lots of hunting rifles that are semi-auto that you can buy extended mags for. He could've used a .300 winchester magnum with 10 round magazines. That round would literally kill multiple people with one bullet. Looks like a regular rifle so no one would want to ban it. Btw tons of people use ARs for coyotes, and if it's chambered in .308 you could use it for deer. Some people us .223 for deer but it's kind of a weak round....
Here's a pic of the semi auto .300 win mag that could've been way more deadly
milk_man
Active member
13842227:milk_man said:There are lots of hunting rifles that are semi-auto that you can buy extended mags for. He could've used a .300 winchester magnum with 10 round magazines. That round would literally kill multiple people with one bullet. Looks like a regular rifle so no one would want to ban it. Btw tons of people use ARs for coyotes, and if it's chambered in .308 you could use it for deer. Some people us .223 for deer but it's kind of a weak round....
Here's a pic of the semi auto .300 win mag that could've been way more deadly
Sorry I was trying to embed the link instead of the pic haha
chicken
Active member
I just don't give a shit anymore. Americans can just keep selling guns to crazy people and waiting for the next mass shooting. It's a hell of a lot easier to control guns than it is to predict who is going to lose their damn mind, buy guns, and go kill dozens of people in just seconds. You morons just can't seem to figure that out.
13842139:.frenchy said:
Look i know you're an army guy, but you can honestly say that if people revolted against the US governement they could fight them off with semi-auto machine guns. When it was 1776 and everyone has muskets, sure that was plausible. The idea of any citizens overthrowing the goverment is asinine and you know it, just another conservative excuse for A2.
How selfish can you be to support the NRA and support the purchase of a weapon like an AR10 when these weapons are causing innocent people to be killed in something like the mass shooting in las vegas? Or colorado? or florida? Your personal interest is more important than that? I'm busting your balls hard right now, but this is what its turning into. Again, I'm not saying ban all guns, but you gotta agree that something has to happen. We can't just arm every citizen, that's insane, the agenda of the NRA is to keep your toys while other use them to mow down crowds of people at a concert. Do you see what I'm saying?
13842227:milk_man said:There are lots of hunting rifles that are semi-auto that you can buy extended mags for. He could've used a .300 winchester magnum with 10 round magazines. That round would literally kill multiple people with one bullet. Looks like a regular rifle so no one would want to ban it. Btw tons of people use ARs for coyotes, and if it's chambered in .308 you could use it for deer. Some people us .223 for deer but it's kind of a weak round....
Here's a pic of the semi auto .300 win mag that could've been way more deadly
Using an AR to shoot coyotes is the most redneck, over the top excuse for owning the gun. Its a fun gun that people shoot targets and show off to their friends, that's literally the only purpose, its a pissing contest.
You're reaching a bit with the .300 rifle, and only 10 rounds, we're talking about modified AR15s with 60 round clips that unload in 5 seconds... but you know this. You could just admit we have a problem, as should every other gun lover out there maybe our country will actually move forward instead of going back. I've been one to support guns in the past, hell I'm still okay with it, but like I said to alex, something needs to happen and coming up with bullshit excuses for owning a AR isn't helping anyone but yourself.
This is obviously a very complicated and convoluted discussion, but let's at least be on the same page.
1. There seem to be a lot of posts from people getting mad at other posters for wanting to take their guns. Not a single person has said they want a blanket bans on guns or think it is the solution to this problem. The world "control" does not mean the same thing as the word "ban." The two cannot be used interchangeably.
2. Yes, a gun is a tool. Yes, a car is a tool. A gun is a tool designed to kill living animals as quickly and efficiently as possible, or at the very least to hurt them so severely they cannot hurt you back as quickly and efficiently as possible. A car is a tool designed to get you from point A to point B as quickly and efficiently as possible. A person using a gun to shoot another person is a correct usage of that tool as it was designed. A person using a car to run over another person is an incorrect usage of that tool as it was designed. Yes, cars can kill people, but don't you think there's a reason there are far, far more mass shootings than mass run-overs?
3. For those of you who believe that we shouldn't try to change gun laws to try and stop these mass shootings because people who really want to do it will find a way even if it's against the law for them to own guns, don't forget that people who commit rape do so despite it being against the law. Does that mean we should make rape legal? If you don't think so, please explain why creating laws to try and prevent rape seems like a good idea to you, but creating laws to try and prevent mass shootings does not.
1. There seem to be a lot of posts from people getting mad at other posters for wanting to take their guns. Not a single person has said they want a blanket bans on guns or think it is the solution to this problem. The world "control" does not mean the same thing as the word "ban." The two cannot be used interchangeably.
2. Yes, a gun is a tool. Yes, a car is a tool. A gun is a tool designed to kill living animals as quickly and efficiently as possible, or at the very least to hurt them so severely they cannot hurt you back as quickly and efficiently as possible. A car is a tool designed to get you from point A to point B as quickly and efficiently as possible. A person using a gun to shoot another person is a correct usage of that tool as it was designed. A person using a car to run over another person is an incorrect usage of that tool as it was designed. Yes, cars can kill people, but don't you think there's a reason there are far, far more mass shootings than mass run-overs?
3. For those of you who believe that we shouldn't try to change gun laws to try and stop these mass shootings because people who really want to do it will find a way even if it's against the law for them to own guns, don't forget that people who commit rape do so despite it being against the law. Does that mean we should make rape legal? If you don't think so, please explain why creating laws to try and prevent rape seems like a good idea to you, but creating laws to try and prevent mass shootings does not.
Clearly if everyone in the crowd was armed this wouldn't have happened. We need to arm everybody
iFlip
Active member
13842110:eheath said:
ARs are by far the best coyote hunting rifle made. For predator control there is nothing else that comes close. Semi-auto shotguns are the core part of every waterfowler's kit. For self defense situations, semi-auto handguns are what the vast majority of folks carry.
