562056961108
New member
Hi NS, my apologies for creating a shitstorm in advance. But we need to talk about this.
Recently, Freeskier posted an editorial from Nate Abbott on the state of womens pipe skiing (http://freeskier.com/stories/insider-outside-raw-take-2015-x-games-womens-halfpipe-final). I would encourage you read the whole thing, but the TL;DR version of that is the ladies aren't progressing, this year's X wasn't a good contest, there is no incentive to progress, the field isn't deep enough, so we should drop women's pipe in favor of a rail jam (where, he argues, there is more progression occurring).
Jen Hudak recently released a response (http://freeskier.com/stories/insider-inside-2015-x-games-womens-halfpipe) to Nate's piece. Again, I would encourage you to read the whole piece from her as well, but her TL;DR version is that yes, in fact, the field is shallow, and that limits the suspense of the competition, because their is less competitive tension among the field of athletes (i.e., standout competitors pushing each other a la Tanner/Simon). Sarah Burke's passing (along with the departure of a few other major competitors) put a severe limiter on that competitive intensity by the nature of competitor scarcity. And yet despite all that, pipe skiing has progressed markedly, should be recognized for its progression, and will continue to get better.
a direct quote from Jen:
"In the last few years, the women have progressed their technical tricks and minimizing straight-airs. My winning run in 2010 consisted of a left 900 (no-grab), tail grab, 540 mute, alley-oop 540 (no grab), mute grab, alley-oop critical, and 720 tail. Sarah Burke’s winning run in 2011 consisted of a straight air, a massive cork 9 (no grab), alley-oop, flare (no grab), other way flare (no grab), and a cork 7 (no grab). Her average amplitude was 7’9” and highest hit was 10’10”. In 2012, days after Sarah’s death, Roz Groenewoud took home gold with a 14’ straight air, right 900 safety (touch), cork left 5, right 5 safety (touch), left 720 (no grab), switch right 5 (no grab). Average amplitude was 7’2”. This past Wednesday night, we witnessed Maddie Bowman win her third consecutive gold medal with a very technical run. Starting out with a right 900 (no grab), into left 540 tail, mute grab, left cork 900 (no grab), right 720 safety, switch left 720 (no grab). Her average amplitude was 7’0” and her biggest hit was 9’5”. Not to mention the rest of the field, several of whom didn’t have a single straight air and others who executed multiple switch-hits."
Finally, she argues that the judges have rewarded consistency and a completed run instead of a massive 1080 at the bottom. Perhaps that should change (she asks somewhat rhetorically).
Jen has a point; the switch hits and the spins have gotten better, the straight airs less. The lack of perennial competitors pushing each other makes things hard to watch, as well, because there is less competitive suspense. the field isn't that deep, and the shock value for competition isn't that high. Women skiers are getting getting better and progressing! ... but not fast enough for the Nate Abbott's of the world to heap praise on them for narrowing the gap between the men and the women.
How do we fix this? How do we help women progress, deepen the competitive field, and help the sport grow? Specifically, as young men?
I've been around this site for a pretty long time (since 2002 I think). I'm a 25 year old male who lives in Colorado, and has for almost all my life. Like most of you, I'm particularly passionate about park skiing. I about lost my mind when I landed a 1080 for the first time when I was 21, something I thought I'd NEVER do. It's my favorite thing to do. The challenge and the focus it takes to love and excel at this sport is, in my humble opinion, immense.
And yet, through that long journey of getting better at park skiing with friends and family, the young women chasing that same passion have been few and far between, and hard to spot for sure. Action sports, in my observation, have always had less female participation. And it's not insignificant to note the anatomical differences between men and women (body composition and size being the most prominent) that no doubt play a contributing role to the "boys outpacing the girls." This isn't limited to skiing either; look at everything from snowboarding to tennis; there is a gap. I think the thing Nate has a problem with in skiing is the size of that gap, and how that gap is growing.
But why are there so few women chasing freeskiing as a dream? I think we, as male skiers, have something to do with it.
We (as men) aren't exactly the most inclusive bunch of folks in this sport, are we? We male skiers, in my observation, have been highly detrimental to the development and support of women's freeskiing. Over the past few years, I've observed dozens of threads and hundreds of comments on this site belittling female skiers. From the fairly unspecific "Tits or GTFO" to the highly specific derision of Maddie Bowman, Devin Logan, Roz G et. Al, and specifically around contest runs. And yet, in the same breath, we immortalize Sarah Burke for "pushing the sport so far". That dichotomy does not sit well with me. How can we champion Sarah but make fun of those who are hoping to become the next Sarah Burke? The next role model for all those young female freeskiers?
Its not limited to this site either. I've heard it on the hill too. Even the vaunted Tom Wallisch, in Vice's "Free", makes some middling commentary about the state of women's freeskiing. I don't have the exact quote, but I found his comments as a well-recognized and highly decorated professional to have particular weight. I understand the girls aren't as good as the boys, Tom, but as a leader in the sport, shouldn't you be doing your part to help these women progress, instead of making fun of them for not keeping up? I imagine you probably are... but geez man put that on camera so we can see it.
Guys, Put yourself in the shoes of a young woman who is passionate about freeskiing. Specifically, pipe skiing. And imagine you're pretty good; you may just have a shot at making it to the X-Games, your LIFELONG DREAM. You spend time on NS, and on Freeskier, and all you see is comments saying "The girls suck" and "There is no progression" and "Women's events shouldn't exist in the X-Games" blah fuckin blah. If I was a young woman taking a look at all those comments, it would definitely take a dent in my self confidence and self worth. And it might discourage other young women from pursuing the sport.
We, as young men, as skiers, should be ashamed of ourselves.
NS, at its best, is an inclusive community that brings together all these people that are passionate about skiing to help each other learn, get better, gossip, shoot the shit, and celebrate skiing over the internet. At its worst, I've seen women objectified and excluded from sharing in this awesome community, simply because they are women, or not as good as the boys, or both. That's some fedora hat wearing, gamergate-esque cowardice hiding behind a keyboard, in my opinion. We need to be better than this.
I about lost my mind when Dara Howell threw that switch 9 in Sochi to win. That was soooo sick. And people were pretty stoked on that on here. We need more of that on here and on the hill!
Here's my modest proposal:
For NS, I'm recommending the following (up for debate):
1. Mods, I would recommend you toe a harder line with the negative commentary towards women on this site. That's a start. I'm a big believer in criticism that has legs to stand on; those comments should stand. Unnecessarily harsh comments without justification should be ripped.
2. The best communities are self policing; If you see a hurtful or derisive comment towards a woman on this site that is without merit, call that coward out, and perhaps flag it for the mods.
3. If you do want to discuss this stuff, shift your tone and theme. Chastising women for not being good enough is exclusive; providing constructive commentary and support is inclusive. We all should do more of this, and not just with the ladies, but with everyone.
4. Most importantly, on the hill, do something about it. Befriend female park skiers out there. Mentor them. Help them learn new tricks. Invite them to ride with your crew. Challenge those young women to push themselves (constructively). Don't exclude them or belittle them.
As for the professionals currently out there, I'm sure there are a lot of things that can be done. These are more out of my purview, but here are a few ideas (Lets debate some more!):
- Changing contract structures to more reward trick progression in film and contests
- Increased media attention for female athletes in the sport. Title 9 exists in college sports for a reason; we should apply similar "fair exposure" principles to action sports. (This may have a more "Athlete/Model" effect, but hey, if it worked for Sarah, Lynsey Dyer, etc., maybe it will help. I worry about this one, but that's what a forum is for I guess.)
- providing more funding for training at places like Woodward, Windells, COC, with each athlete's Olympic team, inclusive of strength training and injury prevention programs.
- More AFP bronze and silver events for up and coming female skiers to compete and practice, with equal prize money for the girls, and a clear track to make it to the Dew Tour, Xgames, and Sochi (The AFP has done a great job with this already. Hats off to you guys).
- Hardware brands expanding their teams to include more women with more competitive slots in major contests available to those women.
- etc. etc.
Look, I'm calling the site, and our industry, out here a bit. I want our community to learn and improve. I am not going to engage in this thread for a while (work)... but I would hope we can have some self reflection and reasonable debate around this stuff. Ultimately, I want our sport to grow, both on the male and female side. Maybe this is a start to help it grow faster and take that progression to the next level.
Cheers.
no TL;DR for you guys
Recently, Freeskier posted an editorial from Nate Abbott on the state of womens pipe skiing (http://freeskier.com/stories/insider-outside-raw-take-2015-x-games-womens-halfpipe-final). I would encourage you read the whole thing, but the TL;DR version of that is the ladies aren't progressing, this year's X wasn't a good contest, there is no incentive to progress, the field isn't deep enough, so we should drop women's pipe in favor of a rail jam (where, he argues, there is more progression occurring).
Jen Hudak recently released a response (http://freeskier.com/stories/insider-inside-2015-x-games-womens-halfpipe) to Nate's piece. Again, I would encourage you to read the whole piece from her as well, but her TL;DR version is that yes, in fact, the field is shallow, and that limits the suspense of the competition, because their is less competitive tension among the field of athletes (i.e., standout competitors pushing each other a la Tanner/Simon). Sarah Burke's passing (along with the departure of a few other major competitors) put a severe limiter on that competitive intensity by the nature of competitor scarcity. And yet despite all that, pipe skiing has progressed markedly, should be recognized for its progression, and will continue to get better.
a direct quote from Jen:
"In the last few years, the women have progressed their technical tricks and minimizing straight-airs. My winning run in 2010 consisted of a left 900 (no-grab), tail grab, 540 mute, alley-oop 540 (no grab), mute grab, alley-oop critical, and 720 tail. Sarah Burke’s winning run in 2011 consisted of a straight air, a massive cork 9 (no grab), alley-oop, flare (no grab), other way flare (no grab), and a cork 7 (no grab). Her average amplitude was 7’9” and highest hit was 10’10”. In 2012, days after Sarah’s death, Roz Groenewoud took home gold with a 14’ straight air, right 900 safety (touch), cork left 5, right 5 safety (touch), left 720 (no grab), switch right 5 (no grab). Average amplitude was 7’2”. This past Wednesday night, we witnessed Maddie Bowman win her third consecutive gold medal with a very technical run. Starting out with a right 900 (no grab), into left 540 tail, mute grab, left cork 900 (no grab), right 720 safety, switch left 720 (no grab). Her average amplitude was 7’0” and her biggest hit was 9’5”. Not to mention the rest of the field, several of whom didn’t have a single straight air and others who executed multiple switch-hits."
Finally, she argues that the judges have rewarded consistency and a completed run instead of a massive 1080 at the bottom. Perhaps that should change (she asks somewhat rhetorically).
Jen has a point; the switch hits and the spins have gotten better, the straight airs less. The lack of perennial competitors pushing each other makes things hard to watch, as well, because there is less competitive suspense. the field isn't that deep, and the shock value for competition isn't that high. Women skiers are getting getting better and progressing! ... but not fast enough for the Nate Abbott's of the world to heap praise on them for narrowing the gap between the men and the women.
How do we fix this? How do we help women progress, deepen the competitive field, and help the sport grow? Specifically, as young men?
I've been around this site for a pretty long time (since 2002 I think). I'm a 25 year old male who lives in Colorado, and has for almost all my life. Like most of you, I'm particularly passionate about park skiing. I about lost my mind when I landed a 1080 for the first time when I was 21, something I thought I'd NEVER do. It's my favorite thing to do. The challenge and the focus it takes to love and excel at this sport is, in my humble opinion, immense.
And yet, through that long journey of getting better at park skiing with friends and family, the young women chasing that same passion have been few and far between, and hard to spot for sure. Action sports, in my observation, have always had less female participation. And it's not insignificant to note the anatomical differences between men and women (body composition and size being the most prominent) that no doubt play a contributing role to the "boys outpacing the girls." This isn't limited to skiing either; look at everything from snowboarding to tennis; there is a gap. I think the thing Nate has a problem with in skiing is the size of that gap, and how that gap is growing.
But why are there so few women chasing freeskiing as a dream? I think we, as male skiers, have something to do with it.
We (as men) aren't exactly the most inclusive bunch of folks in this sport, are we? We male skiers, in my observation, have been highly detrimental to the development and support of women's freeskiing. Over the past few years, I've observed dozens of threads and hundreds of comments on this site belittling female skiers. From the fairly unspecific "Tits or GTFO" to the highly specific derision of Maddie Bowman, Devin Logan, Roz G et. Al, and specifically around contest runs. And yet, in the same breath, we immortalize Sarah Burke for "pushing the sport so far". That dichotomy does not sit well with me. How can we champion Sarah but make fun of those who are hoping to become the next Sarah Burke? The next role model for all those young female freeskiers?
Its not limited to this site either. I've heard it on the hill too. Even the vaunted Tom Wallisch, in Vice's "Free", makes some middling commentary about the state of women's freeskiing. I don't have the exact quote, but I found his comments as a well-recognized and highly decorated professional to have particular weight. I understand the girls aren't as good as the boys, Tom, but as a leader in the sport, shouldn't you be doing your part to help these women progress, instead of making fun of them for not keeping up? I imagine you probably are... but geez man put that on camera so we can see it.
Guys, Put yourself in the shoes of a young woman who is passionate about freeskiing. Specifically, pipe skiing. And imagine you're pretty good; you may just have a shot at making it to the X-Games, your LIFELONG DREAM. You spend time on NS, and on Freeskier, and all you see is comments saying "The girls suck" and "There is no progression" and "Women's events shouldn't exist in the X-Games" blah fuckin blah. If I was a young woman taking a look at all those comments, it would definitely take a dent in my self confidence and self worth. And it might discourage other young women from pursuing the sport.
We, as young men, as skiers, should be ashamed of ourselves.
NS, at its best, is an inclusive community that brings together all these people that are passionate about skiing to help each other learn, get better, gossip, shoot the shit, and celebrate skiing over the internet. At its worst, I've seen women objectified and excluded from sharing in this awesome community, simply because they are women, or not as good as the boys, or both. That's some fedora hat wearing, gamergate-esque cowardice hiding behind a keyboard, in my opinion. We need to be better than this.
I about lost my mind when Dara Howell threw that switch 9 in Sochi to win. That was soooo sick. And people were pretty stoked on that on here. We need more of that on here and on the hill!
Here's my modest proposal:
For NS, I'm recommending the following (up for debate):
1. Mods, I would recommend you toe a harder line with the negative commentary towards women on this site. That's a start. I'm a big believer in criticism that has legs to stand on; those comments should stand. Unnecessarily harsh comments without justification should be ripped.
2. The best communities are self policing; If you see a hurtful or derisive comment towards a woman on this site that is without merit, call that coward out, and perhaps flag it for the mods.
3. If you do want to discuss this stuff, shift your tone and theme. Chastising women for not being good enough is exclusive; providing constructive commentary and support is inclusive. We all should do more of this, and not just with the ladies, but with everyone.
4. Most importantly, on the hill, do something about it. Befriend female park skiers out there. Mentor them. Help them learn new tricks. Invite them to ride with your crew. Challenge those young women to push themselves (constructively). Don't exclude them or belittle them.
As for the professionals currently out there, I'm sure there are a lot of things that can be done. These are more out of my purview, but here are a few ideas (Lets debate some more!):
- Changing contract structures to more reward trick progression in film and contests
- Increased media attention for female athletes in the sport. Title 9 exists in college sports for a reason; we should apply similar "fair exposure" principles to action sports. (This may have a more "Athlete/Model" effect, but hey, if it worked for Sarah, Lynsey Dyer, etc., maybe it will help. I worry about this one, but that's what a forum is for I guess.)
- providing more funding for training at places like Woodward, Windells, COC, with each athlete's Olympic team, inclusive of strength training and injury prevention programs.
- More AFP bronze and silver events for up and coming female skiers to compete and practice, with equal prize money for the girls, and a clear track to make it to the Dew Tour, Xgames, and Sochi (The AFP has done a great job with this already. Hats off to you guys).
- Hardware brands expanding their teams to include more women with more competitive slots in major contests available to those women.
- etc. etc.
Look, I'm calling the site, and our industry, out here a bit. I want our community to learn and improve. I am not going to engage in this thread for a while (work)... but I would hope we can have some self reflection and reasonable debate around this stuff. Ultimately, I want our sport to grow, both on the male and female side. Maybe this is a start to help it grow faster and take that progression to the next level.
Cheers.
no TL;DR for you guys
