As Men, We Need To Be Supportive of Female Progression - A Rant
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Flowbear
Member
I totally agree with this, but the reason there's such a shallow field and no progression, is that I think women aren't as competitive as men and a lot of female skiers try to just stay on top instead of pushing beyond the boundaries.
I personally have had the opportunity to teach some freestyle lessons to women interested in the sport and I've been able to create some more interest for them. But as soon as I bring up competing there's just no interest. I think women aren't getting into the competitive side just because they compare themselves so much to the men and when they see such a small group of female skiers compared to the men. I think they just get intimidated so they just never get into it.
For the higher level female athletes I think a good way to break this no progression spell would be to have more female big air and rail jam style events for the ladies. As boring to some as this sounds I think it would help a lot as right now women spend there seasons trying to perfect basic runs so they can make it through each run. But as soon as you add more big air/rail jam events I think that way of training would change and they would begin spending more time on getting bigger and better tricks which they will then add to they're slope runs. Think about it, this is how men's skiing has progressed so quickly and I think this is what women's skiing needs.
I personally have had the opportunity to teach some freestyle lessons to women interested in the sport and I've been able to create some more interest for them. But as soon as I bring up competing there's just no interest. I think women aren't getting into the competitive side just because they compare themselves so much to the men and when they see such a small group of female skiers compared to the men. I think they just get intimidated so they just never get into it.
For the higher level female athletes I think a good way to break this no progression spell would be to have more female big air and rail jam style events for the ladies. As boring to some as this sounds I think it would help a lot as right now women spend there seasons trying to perfect basic runs so they can make it through each run. But as soon as you add more big air/rail jam events I think that way of training would change and they would begin spending more time on getting bigger and better tricks which they will then add to they're slope runs. Think about it, this is how men's skiing has progressed so quickly and I think this is what women's skiing needs.
SimplyClean
Member
It still blows my mind that PROFESSIONAL women can't hold solid grabs on their tricks - which are all low rotations to begin with.
It's also sad that several male ski bums I see riding in Breck/Keystone would absolutely destroy the whole women's comp field and it's not even their "everyday" job to be progressing their skiing.
I just can't wait for Kelly to blow minds in 1-2 years - that'll hopefully spur some progression for the younger women.
It's also sad that several male ski bums I see riding in Breck/Keystone would absolutely destroy the whole women's comp field and it's not even their "everyday" job to be progressing their skiing.
I just can't wait for Kelly to blow minds in 1-2 years - that'll hopefully spur some progression for the younger women.
fresh_prince
Member
13314970:Turkelton said:
this
fresh_prince
Member
If Sarah was still alive, that article wouldn't have been written
jakeordie
Member
I don't think men "need" to be supportive of female progression, but there's no good reason for men to call women out for not being better skiers.....that Nate dude is hepped up on goofballs.
Given that Sarah was a huge inspiration and a close friend to pretty much the whole women's pro class, I think men probably underestimate the effect that her death had on progression in women's freeskiing.
Shane had a similar place in men's freeskiing, he was a huge inspiration and a close friend of pretty much the whole men's pro class. His death shut down progression in the style of skiing he was doing.
Imagine how dumb it would sound if someone called out the men's pro class for "not progressing" because they weren't jumping off 1000ft cliffs with skis and a parachute.
Given that Sarah was a huge inspiration and a close friend to pretty much the whole women's pro class, I think men probably underestimate the effect that her death had on progression in women's freeskiing.
Shane had a similar place in men's freeskiing, he was a huge inspiration and a close friend of pretty much the whole men's pro class. His death shut down progression in the style of skiing he was doing.
Imagine how dumb it would sound if someone called out the men's pro class for "not progressing" because they weren't jumping off 1000ft cliffs with skis and a parachute.
S.J.W
Active member
The level of woman's freeskiing should be a lot higher than it currently is. Look at woman's moguls, racing and aerials, the gap is a lot smaller than slope and pipe.
Why is the gap so big? Well there's no motivation in freeskiing. Look at NS. woman are generally not accepted. Additionally the hate they get from butt hurt skiers that if you were a girl you'd be pro. Well you're not, and you wouldn't be pro if you were a woman.
Why is the gap so big? Well there's no motivation in freeskiing. Look at NS. woman are generally not accepted. Additionally the hate they get from butt hurt skiers that if you were a girl you'd be pro. Well you're not, and you wouldn't be pro if you were a woman.
brookepotter
Member
hi, brooke here.
so its no secret that nate was kinda an asshole. but maybe that is exactly what women need.
i got an unnecessary amount of hate on NS when I posted my plan on putting out a women's street edit.
and guess what, it has fueled me to hit scarier urban features, and not hit handrails that are good for a girl, but just good for anyone. it basically made me progress more and work harder than i would have if those shitty comments and messages never got posted.
if ladies don't like all this hate, they should ignore it and keep skiing. but for some weird reason it has helped me progress and step up my game.
less drama, more skiing.
so its no secret that nate was kinda an asshole. but maybe that is exactly what women need.
i got an unnecessary amount of hate on NS when I posted my plan on putting out a women's street edit.
and guess what, it has fueled me to hit scarier urban features, and not hit handrails that are good for a girl, but just good for anyone. it basically made me progress more and work harder than i would have if those shitty comments and messages never got posted.
if ladies don't like all this hate, they should ignore it and keep skiing. but for some weird reason it has helped me progress and step up my game.
less drama, more skiing.
^nate^
Active member
13315218:huckcliffs said:
god you sound like such a little fuckhead.
that being said, I think there is a need for men to just back off and let women find their own girlfriends to shred with and let them discover progression on their own and in their own way. it's so much more fun and constructive for them to do it on their own rather than have the "leaders" of the sport telling them what's cool and what "needs" to be done.
Example: I just went shredding in japan for 3 weeks with 4 of my best guy friends. We had to specifically not invite one of the friend's girlfriends, even though she could have skied just fine with us and was dying to go on the trip. It was more of a "we don't want a couple on the trip" sort of thing. Anyways, she was pretty pissed, so out of her furry, she teamed up with my buddy's two sisters and shredded that Jackson storm around New Years. She buys a GoPro and they start filming each other, filming stuff THEY thought was cool. We get back from Japan and she shows us footage of just complete huckage, cliffs, booters, stupid obnoxious shit in the village etc. I thought it was awesome. Just three chicks fucking doing shit they want to do, stepping up their skiing, and not giving a fuck about what all the guys think, needing some guy to coach them or needing some little OP to write a sob story about how we should be nicer to them.
If woman's skiing wants to progress, it should do it on it's own.
FYI, all events that I know of have equal prize money for men's and women's(X Games, Dew Tour, etc..) They also do get fair media exposure, and they have a set out, simple pathway to X Games, Dew, and what not. Look at this years field at X, there was a girl who has been skiing for 2 years.. not just competing, not just park skiing, but SKIING for 2 years
casual
Active member
This thread blows. Women's skiing isn't being held back because of posts on NS.
What if it turns out that there's just a very, very small pool of women that have a true passion (enough to make the entirety of their life revolve around skiing at a high level) for spinning, flipping, and grinding rails on skis? Is that really a problem? Every time I see a woman in the park, they get props, and are usually just another park rider within a crew of park riders. I've never seen a woman a get hate or be discouraged from entering the park.
I'm sorry but if some lame, unfunny, "get back to the kitchen" joke dissuades you from FOLLOWING YOUR LIFE'S PASSION, well, what does that say about that person then?
Equal prize money for a much smaller, less competitive field simply doesn't make sense. I don't understand this mentality of everything having to be exactly equal, particularly when it is a manufactured, not at all reflective of reality "equal".
That said, I would LOVE to see a ripping urban segment from a woman, or an entire movie or whatever. I really like what Maude Raymond puts out, I like Katrina's skiing and series, and Kelly Sildaru is so fucking talented. I hope women's skiing really does continue to grow, and I hope more girls and guys flock to skiing because it's made my life one I really enjoy living. I don't give a fuck about "skiing's future", or any of these other, pointless lofty goals OP is on about. At the end of the day, we are all humans, we should be decent to one another, and respect each other, regardless of gender.
I think this thread, and the idea behind it—that it's men's job to prop women up and "encourage" them—is incredibly patronizing and frankly paternalistic. Women don't need us to make a lane for them in skiing!! INDIVIDUAL women will push skiing and grow it in an organic fashion....if the market and drive is there.
I truly find Kelly's skiing to be impressive, I watch every edit she puts out because they're GOOD! People consume content that stands out. That extends to every kind of content, not just skiing. Our attention is divided and competed for by so many disparate media outlets, it takes something special, unique, and compelling to reel us in.
If, for example, those two ladies come through and produce banging urban footy and put it together well and tastefully, people will fucking love it!!! The attention will/would be warranted, and who knows what might come next. What I'm saying is that if the product is produced and is of reasonable quality, people will fucking buy it!
What if it turns out that there's just a very, very small pool of women that have a true passion (enough to make the entirety of their life revolve around skiing at a high level) for spinning, flipping, and grinding rails on skis? Is that really a problem? Every time I see a woman in the park, they get props, and are usually just another park rider within a crew of park riders. I've never seen a woman a get hate or be discouraged from entering the park.
I'm sorry but if some lame, unfunny, "get back to the kitchen" joke dissuades you from FOLLOWING YOUR LIFE'S PASSION, well, what does that say about that person then?
Equal prize money for a much smaller, less competitive field simply doesn't make sense. I don't understand this mentality of everything having to be exactly equal, particularly when it is a manufactured, not at all reflective of reality "equal".
That said, I would LOVE to see a ripping urban segment from a woman, or an entire movie or whatever. I really like what Maude Raymond puts out, I like Katrina's skiing and series, and Kelly Sildaru is so fucking talented. I hope women's skiing really does continue to grow, and I hope more girls and guys flock to skiing because it's made my life one I really enjoy living. I don't give a fuck about "skiing's future", or any of these other, pointless lofty goals OP is on about. At the end of the day, we are all humans, we should be decent to one another, and respect each other, regardless of gender.
I think this thread, and the idea behind it—that it's men's job to prop women up and "encourage" them—is incredibly patronizing and frankly paternalistic. Women don't need us to make a lane for them in skiing!! INDIVIDUAL women will push skiing and grow it in an organic fashion....if the market and drive is there.
I truly find Kelly's skiing to be impressive, I watch every edit she puts out because they're GOOD! People consume content that stands out. That extends to every kind of content, not just skiing. Our attention is divided and competed for by so many disparate media outlets, it takes something special, unique, and compelling to reel us in.
If, for example, those two ladies come through and produce banging urban footy and put it together well and tastefully, people will fucking love it!!! The attention will/would be warranted, and who knows what might come next. What I'm saying is that if the product is produced and is of reasonable quality, people will fucking buy it!
cobra_commander
Active member
13315427:danbrown said:
understatement
fordbennett
Member
OP, how much time did you spend arguing about this? Seems fucking stupid to have spent this much time and effort on such a pointless topic
Breaking_Rad
Member
13315605:casual said:
Agree here 100%. I don't think anybody expects women's edits to be beyond crazy. They just expect them to be better than what came before it. Kelly does that. Maude does that.
So yeah, good skiing has to come first. The rolling up the windows on the jumps and the missed grabs need to be firmly in the past. Ski well, execute well, do something unique and the praise is piled on. Put out some crap-edit with sloppy rails, sloppy jumps and sloppy skiing and I don't think anybody on NS has any "higher reason" to tell you great or blow smoke up one's ass. If you are going to film it make sure it looks good. Bounce it off some skier friends before you hit "publish."
And halfpipe, shit...I don't know what to make of that for women. X-games was just lame for girls in the stunt ditch and there doesn't seem to be anybody in the pipeline to change that at all.
I do like that nobody is totally railing on slopestyle. Again, even with the depleted field and a LOT of girls out with injuries there is still hope there.
rach
Member
13314970:Turkelton said:
When I first saw this thread I knew I would inevitably spend the better half of my day arguing. When I saw the above quoted response I was originally mad, then confused, and now I am just feeling empowered. Most of you will probably never bother to read this, and that's ok. I am two weeks into a month long stay in Japan, and somewhere in the middle of this rant, I went out and storm skied overhead pow. If that doesn't make you mad, I'm sure the words below will.
1. Women have everything they want and more than men
"Women" is not a universal term. Women being women in the U.S.? Women in the snow sports industry? Women in the world? False on all accounts. Since the beginning of western civilization, women have been viewed as lesser versions of men (thanks Plato & Aristotle). There are thousands of statistics I could cite here regarding the socioeconomic status of women around the world and in the U.S. I can say from firsthand experience that women do not face the same amount of opportunity within the ski industry as men do. Society subtly discourages female athleticism constantly. For example, women are depicted in athletic advertisements a measly 12% of the time, and 81% of those ads are sexually suggestive, displaying no athletic competency. What sort of message does that send to people about women? It certainly suggests that athleticism is not a valued feminine trait. The OP mentioned Title IX, a law that prohibits federally funded institutions from discriminating on the basis of sex in any of its programs, including sporting activities. Eighty to ninety percent of these institutions are still not in compliance with Title IX as it applies to athletics, and yet they face no consequence. To pretend that anywhere in the world we are "post-sexism" is absolutely fucking nuts. Male privilege is a very real, very scary thing. The same way white privilege is. Acknowledging privilege requires that you recognize that not all of what you have has been earned, and that's fucking uncomfortable for people. I get it. The U.S. is a highly individualized country and we like to pretend that everyone faces equal opportunity and it is vastly unrealistic. For more interesting reading on privilege, you should check out Peggy McIntosh's super famous article, "White Privilege: Unpacking the Invisible Knapsack."
2. Why should we encourage them? Can't they do that? Why do we need to cheer women on?
We don't want to be coddled, sorry for the misunderstanding. Believe me, the last thing we want is praise from an ass hat like you. It's not about wanting or needing cheerleaders. We don't need you to carry us on your shoulders; just don't shove us on the ground and kick dust in our faces. For example, "Women pros are SHIT." What if I told you that everything you care about and love and work tirelessly for was absolute shit? That's not constructive. I know most of the individuals on this website don't intentionally work to stifle women's skiing. In the broader sports-media-commercial complex, there is a real systemic marginalization of women athletes. And it's not just men who participate in this marginalization, it's women too. There are many professional athletes, both men and women, who have acknowledged this and have written about it. If you have a real interest in educating yourself on the matter read some Michael Messner.
3. They all suck because they're allowed to suck and make money even though they suck
Suck relative to men? Yeah, sure. You can't ignore biological differences. But the gap is closing within elite athletics. Women's swimming and running world records are about where men's were in the 1960's, and we're improving at a much faster rate. Skiing is a very different sport, however. The risk of injury is drastically higher, and having more active testosterone is a huge advantage in adrenaline sports. Regardless, what money are you talking about? Sure, the highest profile female athletes in our sport may have contracts with a small cash stipend but I guarantee you it is NOT livable. This is also true for many male athletes in marginal sports like skiing. Whether you think they suck or not, women are working full time to get good competition results and garner attention for their sponsors, and they deserve actual salaries. Outside of skiing, full-time female athletes routinely make way less money than their male counterparts. This disparity is much worse in the U.S. than it is in other countries around the world.
3. they think being criticized is an affront on the female gender
As the OP said, criticism is welcomed when it has value. But most criticism against female skiing has no ground in fact. This thread contains some of the first factual points I have seen in the "women's skiing sucks" argument. In any case, as someone who studies gender and sport and skis full time, it is hard not to read something like this and take it personally. Valid criticism is not an affront on the female gender, but systemic discouragement is. I don't expect you to be able to understand the difference because you haven't experienced it. But know that oppression is very rarely noticed and addressed by the oppressor.
4. stick up for them while being desperate virgins
Feminism is not a "women's issue." Equalizing the socioeconomic status of men and women worldwide would benefit everyone, not just women. Giving women power does not necessitate taking it away from men, that is a grossly oversimplified view. I can't speak to the OP's sexual history, but he seems significantly less angry and insecure than you, which would suggest he has more sex. Anyways.
From here on out, I am only going to pick on your points that I disagree with. Some of the facts you stated are true, but I don't see how they work to serve your argument.
5. They are believed much more than males in any sexual crime case, in any case to be honest.
Typically I believe you are correct that women are given the benefit of the doubt in most sexual crime cases. Although, I really haven't done the research to say that with utmost confidence. Either way, the statistics regarding the amount of sexual violence incidents that go unreported is stifling. Rape is one of the most psychologically torturous events that a person can become victim to, in addition to the actual physical trauma. I don't believe that women are believed more frequently than men in general court cases. I think it is highly dependent on the audience, or the jury. Your other points regarding the legal system are some examples of ways that some men have been wronged by judicial proceedings, and I won't argue with them. Although, I would like to see some numbers to make your claims more convincing.
6. Women can be fat, ugly slobs and we have to put up with it because "muh media pressure".
Women come in a variety of different shapes and sizes. You don't have to like them all. Remember - our purpose isn't actually to make your eyes happy. You don't have to put up with anything, so I suggest you divorce your fat wife who obviously stopped having sex with you years ago. This "media pressure" is an increasing problem for men too. For more information of the subject, Jean Kilbourne has a series of documentaries that reveal her years of study on body image and the media. She is also really funny, so that's cool.
7. 100+ babies every year in the USA die from circumcision, yet there is worldwide law against FGM.
There is no worldwide law against FGM. Countries with laws or regulations against FGM include Burkina Faso, Central African Republic, Djibouti, Ghana, Great Britain, Guinea, Sudan, Sweden, and the United States. Existing laws against assault and child abuse cover FGM in Canada, France, and the United Kingdom. Most local legislation regarding FGM is ignored because it is a practice deeply rooted in the culture of many countries in the Global South. The custom has killed hundreds of thousands of women throughout the course of history. From the PATH website,
"The highest maternal and infant mortality rates are in FGM-practicing regions. The actual number of girls who die as a result of FGM is not known. However, in areas in the Sudan where antibiotics are not available, it is estimated that one-third of the girls undergoing FGM will die. Conservative estimates suggest that more than one million women in Centrafrican Republic (CAR), Egypt, and Eritrea, the only countries where such data is available, experienced adverse health effects from FGM. One quarter of women in CAR and 1/5 of women in Eritrea reported FGM-related complications. Where medical facilities are ill-equipped, emergencies arising from the practice cannot be treated. Thus, a child who develops uncontrolled bleeding or infection after FGM may die within hours."
Circumcision is an unnecessary surgery that is proven to be more dangerous than many originally thought. However, it differs from FGM on a number of points. Firstly, it is not specifically designed to prevent men from enjoying sex. That is one of the main goals of FGM. Additionally, circumcisions are typically done in regions with much more affluent healthcare, so the risks and pain associated with it are much less severe.
8. Women are positively discriminated against and will make it up ranks without being any good.
Reverse discrimination - which is the term I believe you are reaching for here, is certainly a factor in many western countries today. Affirmative action policies have had an unclear effect on the opportunities facing both men and women. But to say that undeserving women will make it up the ranks without being any good is not true in many instances. There are many deserving, qualified women who have benefitted from affirmative action programs. I am sure there are also some women who have taken advantage of them and as a result, are not deserving. However, women still face countless barriers in some industries and job positions. For example, an overwhelming majority of board directors around the world are male. There are plenty of qualified, experienced women available for these types of jobs, but they are often passed up simply because they are women, and the selection committee sees them as unworthy or not experienced enough.
9. The pay gap is due to women's choices in career. Not some evil force made by men.
I don't think you quite understand the wage gap. Women in the same job position as their male counterparts, doing the exact same work, are receiving less compensation. Women and men often pursue different careers, but why is it that those pursued by women historically receive less compensation? It is not because their work is less valuable to society or requires less education. Careers are compensated differently because jobs are associated with different genders.
10. The male is seen as disposable. Females are seen as human.
Is that why the human race is often referred to as "man?" Men are not viewed as disposable. Across the world, young boys are much more likely to receive an education than young girls, because they indeed are valued more highly in many countries. As I said before, the underlying philosophy of western culture contained the words "women are but lesser men." The implications of that statement are visible everywhere in society. You may not see it; and I guarantee it will be more pleasant for you to go on without seeing it. Once you experience the disparity, it will bother you. There is a Nobel prize winning book you should check out called, "Half the Sky." If you read that book and still agree with your statements above, I'll be surprised.
11. Do you really think men have it better in India or Afghanistan? It's a shit world out there, and guess what, women aren't the only victims
True! And if you knew anything about feminism you would know it is the study of how all types of discrimination serve systems of privilege and oppression. There are currently many oppressed men. No feminist will argue that. Feminist activism serves to disband systems of privilege and oppression, including those that negatively impact men.
So, while I can't speak for any other women, I will speak for myself when I say from the bottom of my heart;
You shut your mouth when you're talking to me.
Al Sharpton for president ya'll, I'm out.
Breaking_Rad
Member
13315936:bostonuj said:
Alana Blanchard isn't as good as Kelly Slater? Maria Sharapova isn't as good as Roger Federer? Lindsey Vonn isn't as fast as Bode Miller? Kelly Sildaru isn't as good as Henrik Harlaut? Well God Damn, that's news to me.
Earth shattering.
LOLZfajitas
Member
Honestly, if chicks want to ski park, all I ask is, I don't have to wait more than 5 min (fall and get up time) at the lift for her and she touches my wiener on the lift.
.tomskis
Member
Girls are throwing TRIPLES in women's aerial skiing. Given the ever more regular comparison of slope-style skiing and aerials, I find the physiology argument a tough one to swallow.
In general, I think the entire industry really wants to see women's skiing progress - and the girls who are pushing the boundaries are getting plenty of warm fuzzies (Kelly Sildaru, Tatum Monod, Lisa Zimmerman are the ones I love to watch ski, and for that reason). But 3 people pushing boundaries in an entire sport is always going to be slow progression. In men's freeskiing it feels like every week a different person does some different mind blowing thing that we've never seen before - from ski gods (Candide with OOTD2) to current pros (every X games big air competitor this year) and people I've never heard of before (the dude who threw the nose butter to switch frontflip).
Going back to the analogy to women's aerial skiing, that sport has a culture of pushing each other to do something bigger and better than the others, and the results are clear. Maybe there needs to be a cultural shift within women's freeskiing to push each other harder. Next time you're in the park with a chick (girls and guys), apply maximum encouragement and a liberal amount of peer pressure for her to go that little bit bigger, try that new feature, add that extra 180. Maybe more of that is needed to take women's freeskiing to the next level.
In general, I think the entire industry really wants to see women's skiing progress - and the girls who are pushing the boundaries are getting plenty of warm fuzzies (Kelly Sildaru, Tatum Monod, Lisa Zimmerman are the ones I love to watch ski, and for that reason). But 3 people pushing boundaries in an entire sport is always going to be slow progression. In men's freeskiing it feels like every week a different person does some different mind blowing thing that we've never seen before - from ski gods (Candide with OOTD2) to current pros (every X games big air competitor this year) and people I've never heard of before (the dude who threw the nose butter to switch frontflip).
Going back to the analogy to women's aerial skiing, that sport has a culture of pushing each other to do something bigger and better than the others, and the results are clear. Maybe there needs to be a cultural shift within women's freeskiing to push each other harder. Next time you're in the park with a chick (girls and guys), apply maximum encouragement and a liberal amount of peer pressure for her to go that little bit bigger, try that new feature, add that extra 180. Maybe more of that is needed to take women's freeskiing to the next level.
cobra_commander
Active member
13315888:rach said:
TLDR
13315888:rach said:
Wow where do I want to start? Maybe I'll just go point by point. (All numbering is direct response to your numbering)
1. Title IX is not only irrelevant to the current argument as freeskiing is generally not institutionalized, especially in the current argument, but Title IX is also affirmative action bullshit. Men's sports make more money than women's sports. That is an indisputable fact. Yet colleges can't have male teams without female teams that constantly lose money.
2. Wow do women's runners want to be congratulated that they are just as fast as a guy 50+ years ago? Women's professional skiers are shit. Game of SLVSH between one of the better, male, Keystone park rats and Devin Logan, I will put money on the ski bum any day of the week. Why do we have to constantly be constructive of women's skiing? Maybe they need a kick in the collective ass to actually spur development. Get a chip on your shoulder and prove us wrong instead of saying to yourself, "I got some hate on a website, now I can't try to progress today."
3. How do male skiers oppress you? At all? Are we "too aggressive when we drop"? Do we "laugh you out of the park"? I have never seen this. If you can't handle adversity, you are going to have a rough life. "Sack up" and deal with it.
4.No, feminism in principle is good, however it is the psychotic "screamer" feminists that have ruined it for everyone.
5. Don't really have a response. I read some legal statute that stated that women when seen as the accuser should be believed at all times until "proven guilty" so to speak.
6. Insulting his "wife" is ad hominem and doesn't help your argument, only makes you seem bitchy.
7. Really don't care to argue this point because it seems like Turkelton just wants to spite women.
8. This whole point of yours lacks basis. How do you know that those men aren't equally deserving if not better? They may be at the company longer, they may be more qualified, you have no numbers.
9. Lets get back to skiing. Women and men in the same job. Professional skiing. Are they doing the same work? If you consider 540s and double corks to be the same, then yes. If you, like me, don't think these are equal, then yes the wage gap makes sense.
10. "Women and children first". How is this fair to men? Are they supposed to die for the safety of women? Why not, "Men and children first". Children need fathers in their lives as well as mothers. Socially, women are seen as "more important" while fiscally, men aren't reversely discriminated against.
11. Congratulations on not being a total-hardliner raging "females are better than males" bitch.
Wow silencing other peoples ideas is really accepting and helps us move forward as a community.
rach for "Shitty Debater of the Month" y'all, please stay out.
LemmiwinksVT
Member
White Knights are the worst kind of people. I feel bad that you have so much trouble getting laid you feel the need to become a male feminist. It still won't work. I understand that it's tough living in a ski town but C'mon son.
Girls skiing is horrible and I don't want to watch it. It's not up to men to help women build their sport. If women want to progress they need to do it on their own. Yes people make fun of them, but it's because they suck.
Also, huckcliffs A.K.A "no-dick", I love how you call out Wallisch for saying the truth. That was one of the best parts of that shit documentary. Maybe you should have called out that idiot Devin Logan for talking that shit about Tanner Hall. I still can't believe she got away with that. She should't ever be allowed in another terrain park.
Girls skiing is horrible and I don't want to watch it. It's not up to men to help women build their sport. If women want to progress they need to do it on their own. Yes people make fun of them, but it's because they suck.
Also, huckcliffs A.K.A "no-dick", I love how you call out Wallisch for saying the truth. That was one of the best parts of that shit documentary. Maybe you should have called out that idiot Devin Logan for talking that shit about Tanner Hall. I still can't believe she got away with that. She should't ever be allowed in another terrain park.
LemmiwinksVT
Member
Sorry for the dub post....
I don't know any figures but I don't think there is an access of cash in freeskiing. So for you to argue that more funding and prizes should go towards women instead of the athletes who are progressing the sport and who people actually want to watch is just ridiculous. And if you can't do the math on that then I can't help you.
I don't know any figures but I don't think there is an access of cash in freeskiing. So for you to argue that more funding and prizes should go towards women instead of the athletes who are progressing the sport and who people actually want to watch is just ridiculous. And if you can't do the math on that then I can't help you.
Troy.
Active member
13316016:loganschnur said:
Only 3% of accused rapists will ever see the inside of a jail cell. (https://rainn.org/news-room/97-of-every-100-rapists-receive-no-punishment) So, no, that legal statue doesn't exist.
And I know your next point will be "oh they lied blah blah blah". Only 2% of rape accusations are false, which comes from a FBI study that I literally have on my desk, but the google machine isn't pulling it up. I'll send a picture if it comes down to it.
Go poke around on the RAINN website and learn some statistics. Sexual assault and rape are huge problems, and one of the biggest issues facing victims of sexual assault are people not believing them.
562056961108
New member
13316046:LemmiwinksVT said:
I have a bunch of things I want to say in here but I just... can't. Can't bring myself to do it.
I'll just say this.
Huckcliffs is smarter than most of the people responding to him, but is still, I think, wrong. Reading that paragraph about the different winning runs in different years, I thought, first, "huh, you know, those all kind of suck, and I'm not really seeing a ton of progression", and second, "those are just the winning runs, it's not like there are ten of even that questionable quality". There's much more to respond to in Jen's article and the OP, but I don't have the time or energy.
Turkleton's post is basically retarded and people who are applauding it are idiots, but that's fine because they're probably all teenagers who don't know any better.
Finally, the thing about how mods should remove non-constructive negativity... well, the line for what's acceptable on this website is as follows: If it's clearly sexist, then sure, happy to get rid of it. If it's "that women's pipe comp at X games sucked top to bottom", that isn't sexist, it's a (probably honestly held) opinion on the quality of the skiing.
I'll just say this.
Huckcliffs is smarter than most of the people responding to him, but is still, I think, wrong. Reading that paragraph about the different winning runs in different years, I thought, first, "huh, you know, those all kind of suck, and I'm not really seeing a ton of progression", and second, "those are just the winning runs, it's not like there are ten of even that questionable quality". There's much more to respond to in Jen's article and the OP, but I don't have the time or energy.
Turkleton's post is basically retarded and people who are applauding it are idiots, but that's fine because they're probably all teenagers who don't know any better.
Finally, the thing about how mods should remove non-constructive negativity... well, the line for what's acceptable on this website is as follows: If it's clearly sexist, then sure, happy to get rid of it. If it's "that women's pipe comp at X games sucked top to bottom", that isn't sexist, it's a (probably honestly held) opinion on the quality of the skiing.
... I mean, seriously? "do you really think men have it better in India or Afghanistan?" Yes, you fucking idiot. If only because you're less likely to be regarded as an item of property on par with cattle, or to be burned alive by your family for an insufficient dowry.
562056961108
New member
13316125:J.D. said:
Word. Thanks J.D. Appreciate your contribution. Glad to see some OG's still bouncing around in here.
Probably a good spot for me to quit this thing. I'll just say that my goal in writing all this was to shed light on something I think needs fixing (that being, the general attitude towards women in our sport). Good points were raised on both sides (particularly the point about the difference between a high level female pro and "Joe Park Skier"). Hopefully this helps all of us think a bit about our words and actions, and ultimately helps skiing, generally, progress.
It's easy, in my opinion, to let consistently negative commentary and attitudes persist, because its fairly easy to ignore things like that, particularly if the negative commentary isn't directed towards you. Groupthink plays a role here too. All said, though, we would be doing a disservice to those who this negative commentary is directed towards if we don't address it and confront it, in my opinion. I'm not saying women can't defend themselves. That's patronizing, and not my intention. I think an honest conversation about this stuff is important to promote inclusiveness, and the reason I wrote what I did.
Anyway, I'm done. Happy Friday everyone!
K-Dot.
Active member
13316066:Troy. said:
Just wondering, if they know that only 2% of rape accusations are false, how are they only putting away 3% of accused rapists? If they access to the information that can prove that they're guilty why isn't it being used? Honest question. I'm a tad confused by it.
Cyanicenine
Member
In order to understand the state of women's park skiing you only need to understand two things:
1. Numbers. Anytime someone says something about women's park skiing just replace "women" with "Jamaicans" to get the full feel of that statement. Let's try it out; "Jamaicans really need to step up their game when it comes to park skiing, it's like they're not even trying!" Sounds a little ridiculous, because it is. It's just numbers people. I was skiing park all day yesterday, did I see any other women skiers in the park? Nope.
2. Pro athletes are manufactured, not self made. If you don't understand this, read this article about a kid trying to make the NFL http://www.cnn.com/2011/LIVING/01/20/making.of.sports.superstar/. While interest on the part of the child is most definitely necessary. Most children do not have access to the thousands of dollars, as well as thousands of hours that their parents put into making the road to professional athlete possible. Pro-dom starts in childhood, the younger the better. If you weren't lucky enough to have parents with the available resources to make that dream possible, well too bad, sucks to be you, because you'll never be pro without that parenthood backing.
Daughters are far less likely to be invested in, in this way, than sons are. If you don't believe me take a look around next time you are at windells, woodward, etc and tell me what the ratio of little girls to little boys is. The road to pro is paved in hours and $$$ of parental investment. It's not because 5 year old Stephanie wasn't passionate enough or wasn't trying as hard as the boys. Surprisingly when daughters are invested in like this (see kelly sidaru) it pays off.
/Mystery solved.
1. Numbers. Anytime someone says something about women's park skiing just replace "women" with "Jamaicans" to get the full feel of that statement. Let's try it out; "Jamaicans really need to step up their game when it comes to park skiing, it's like they're not even trying!" Sounds a little ridiculous, because it is. It's just numbers people. I was skiing park all day yesterday, did I see any other women skiers in the park? Nope.
2. Pro athletes are manufactured, not self made. If you don't understand this, read this article about a kid trying to make the NFL http://www.cnn.com/2011/LIVING/01/20/making.of.sports.superstar/. While interest on the part of the child is most definitely necessary. Most children do not have access to the thousands of dollars, as well as thousands of hours that their parents put into making the road to professional athlete possible. Pro-dom starts in childhood, the younger the better. If you weren't lucky enough to have parents with the available resources to make that dream possible, well too bad, sucks to be you, because you'll never be pro without that parenthood backing.
Daughters are far less likely to be invested in, in this way, than sons are. If you don't believe me take a look around next time you are at windells, woodward, etc and tell me what the ratio of little girls to little boys is. The road to pro is paved in hours and $$$ of parental investment. It's not because 5 year old Stephanie wasn't passionate enough or wasn't trying as hard as the boys. Surprisingly when daughters are invested in like this (see kelly sidaru) it pays off.
/Mystery solved.
Troy.
Active member
13316206:K-Dot. said:
Thats a great question. Because of the way our court system is set up, its really really hard to convict someone on rape. Unless the victim went immediately to the hospital, immediately went to the police and was able to point to her attacker, its really hard to take cases to court and ultimately convict. Unfortunately, there are many cases of allegations against a rapist being made, and the police refusing to act on that information.
LemmiwinksVT
Member
13316235:Cyanicenine said:
Oh geez...mystery solved alright. You're upset girls pro skiers aren't as good as an average male park skier and instead of being like shit, we need to step our game up, you just blame someone or something other than yourselves...Shocker. Furthermore, Jamaica made it to the Olympics with a bobsledding team so your point is dumb.
Go tell some more people how you'd be a pro skier that could triple if only her parents had invested more money in her dream. Get the f**k out of here. Linking an article about some moronic parents investing thousands of dollars in their son who will prolly never play in the NFL doesn't prove a point at all. It just shows how some people waste their money.
Breaking_Rad
Member
13316151:huckcliffs said:
I honestly don't think there is any 'hate' for girl skiers. I think the hate is for bad skiing.
Outside of maybe one or two guys I don't recall seeing any hate for the last 3-4 Maude or Kelly edits. Nico Porteous was clearly the better skier in the last Kelly edit, but did anybody say - oh, she sucks? No, it was more like 'damn, those kids are good.'
It isn't so much the tricks - Maude or Kelly are doing anything totally mindblowing - but rather the overall style and quality of skiing and tricks. Even Kelly's brother Henry - kid is 7, but he rips for a 7-year old. If he was dicking around out there most people would say, "the girl is good, but you need to get his hack brother out of the edit."
I think this site has a lot of patience for people learning too. But what the site is pretty consistent on - dude or girl - is calling out bad skiing. Sometimes it is constructive, but a lot of times it is pretty harsh.
I don't see it being a guy/girl thing. That girls halfpipe event was just so ho-hum, but I think the Nate-dude calling it out brought it more hate.
Breaking_Rad
Member
Should read:
Maude or Kelly aren't doing anything totally mindblowing
Maude or Kelly aren't doing anything totally mindblowing
notspoicey
Active member
notspoicey
Active member
Why do people give a shit so much? The point is we all love skiing, so why complain? Enough with all the beef lately in this community. Haha chill the fuck out and take a look at this from a different perspective.
