Thoughts of a Dying Athiest

But naother thing is that Good and Bad are just a point of view, so whom ever is controlling what happens when you die, they choose if your life was lived the right way, so saying ive been a good person, well you dont really know because good and bad are just based on our society, or there could be just nothing

-------Numbers have dehumanized us. Over breakfast coffee we read of 40,000 American dead in Vietnam. Instead of vomiting, we reach for the toast. Our morning rush through crowded streets is not to cry murder but to hit that trough before somebody else gobbles our share.----------------------------------D
alton Trumbo, 1970

 
If you believe in nothing than you will accomplish nothing is far from bullshit, it's truth. Anyone who has accomplished anything great in this world has done so because of his beliefs.

Columbus found the new world because he believed something else was out there. In the story of James Braddock (the Cinderella Man), he rose to the top because he believed in himself, and had the desire to rise from where he was at.

Believe in yourself, believe you can overcome all that comes against you, believe in God, or believe that there is no God, believe in what you are fighting for, believe in hope, but just believe in something! Reaffirm to yourself regularly why you believe or why you don't believe in something.. and be open to hear new things.

Those who have said that 'there is no god, there is no proof, end of story' How are you any different than those whom you despise? I've heard you raking on people for 'being close-minded', when how are you any different?

Sure someone may not be able to give you physical evidence that proves beyond shadow of a doubt that God exists, but can you prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that God doesn't exist? Sure it may not seem likely to you, but don't rule anything out of the question unless you have solid proof.

We know so little about this world, there are so many things that are unexplained to this day. If you only believe in what you see or what you know, then you are limiting yourself.

There's a judge in the State of Lousiana. A man in shackles approaches the bench. He is being tried for murder. His hair is scragly, and face worn. Before hearing the case, the judge immediately says the defendant is guilty. The man has the look of a murderer, but does that make him one? The judge has no solid evidence whether or not he's innocent. But the judge has his mind made up. You might think this story is pretty absurd, but tell me how it is any different than ruling out that an afterlife does or does not exist when you can not say either for sure?

Like I said, It doesn't affect me at all what you believe in. There are thousands of religions, philosophies, and beliefs; and I am interested in learning about all of them.

 
that has to be one of the deepest posts on ns evr. im pretty much speachless. fucking awesome.

"i'll nosepress your box if you lipslide my rail"

https://newschoolers.com/NS2/Forums
/ReadThread.php?cat_id=2&thread_id=16675&
start=150 ^Wisdom teeth and Constipation^

 
^that's what GD does

-Strode

Only in my sweetest dreams do my streams lack troubled waters, shallow pools full of shallow fools...
 
This is a sweet thread, lots of good comments and discussion. A few things though:

Atheists do believe in something, just not that there is a God.

Whoever said that you have to believe in God to not believe in him... what the shit are you talking about? That doesn't even make sense.

As for Apple, dude, I'm sorry, but for you to say that evolution didn't happen, thats like saying Dinosaurs didn't exist, and is just a silly belief made up by scientists.

Perhaps not all life evolved from a single cell, but think about this, if you believe that all humans came from one man and one woman, then we all come from incest. We are all mentally retarded and deformed from what the perfect first 2 humans once were (which is another cool theory). So you're contradictiong yourself there. If you say that ok, well yes Adam and Eve were the first two humans, but then God made a few more and then they had kids, well ok, but then what if there were more than one cell fronm which life evolved?

Anyways I can't imagine anyone disagreeing with some kind of evolution, even if you are a theist.

How did we learn language? DUDE, humans are SMART! How did we build a computer? God didn't send us down a blueprint of a computer from heaven. We figured it out, its that simple... If a child can learn to communicate, I think over a few thousand years, we coulde somehow manage to figure out a few simple grunts for a few simple words, like fire, and rock, and food, and family, and enemy, and danger... Its simple, we figured out how to make sounds, babies do it before they understand whats happening to them, it is instinct to make sounds... even animals can talk to each other in a very primitive way... Since you say God does not accept animals, or that they have souls, how is it that they have come to communicate and use simple tools? They used the small amount of intelligence that they have and figured it out.

 
Ghost Dragon: I thought what you meant by believing in nothing was believing that there was no higher power. Now that I see what you were saying, I can honestly say I agree 100%.

===================

fear makes it fun

Before 1954, when the United States was in the middle of the Cold War, the pledge did not include a reference to God. In adding it, members of Congress said they wanted to set the United States apart from 'godless Communists.

Member of the association agaisnt clubs
 
well, first off there is a slight difference between all of life as we know it coming from a single cell as opposed to all of one species originating from one pair of that species. the latter is far more probable, and to compare the two isn't a good comparison at all.

second, as for Adam and Eve and incest to create the human race as we know it, do you not concede that, if God managed to create the universe as we know it, he could forsee and overcome such a problem as this? i forget right now wether it is said in the bible or if i read it somewhere else, but i believe that all of the genetic material needed for the human race could have been present in adams seed and in eve too.

there are what, 6 million possibilities in alleles for that many individuals to be born from 2 parents without repeationg once? it is very possible that there be no adverse effects such as incest related illnesses in the beginning of the population of the Earth, seeing as adam had the "seed of the world" i think it was.

also, it is said in the bible that after Noah, God reduced the age of man to 10 dozen years, and allowed men to eat meat for the first time, contributing to limiting the age of humans. this could have been also by some genetic alteration to limit the age of man. and such a mutation exists today, called pregoria, where those who have it age extraordinarily fast, and usually die at around 13 years of age. the average life expectancy today is 75 years, around there. thats a 5 time decrease. so you cannot put such a ;utation beyond God, who i believe created the World. im sure he could troubleshoot incest if he could create the world as we know it.

as to defend apple: he did not say evolution did not happen, he said that the level of evolution known as macro evolution could not have happended at all, which is a quite proven thing. micro evolution, or natural selection, is proven and verified, and concordant with the idea that all genetic info is present in the beginning to allow adaptation and change, which contributes or not to the survival of the species. that leads back to adam for us and to the original creatures for the rest of animal species.

also, dinosaurs are proven, because there is fact for them, the fossils they left behind. macro evolution has never been proven, nor shown to be possible in factual instances: there is no concrete physical proof for it, as scientists so reproach creationists for having no concrete proof ourselves.

and as for language: what is intelligence? it implies more than chance right? language is not proof for evolution at all, rather for intelligence, something that by definition cannot be created out of chance. where there is chance, there is no intelligence. surely you concede that somethiong as intricate and complex as language does not have its place in chaos and disorder? because that is what evolution is: a random process, with no plan whatsoever. if there is a planning, then it is not evolution anymore. and something that is lucky guessing on an occurences behalf cannot create intelligence, only intelligence can create intelligence.

to finish, God made us in his own image. that is not to say that he has hands and a uvula like us, but we have Godly behavior: we can create things. we are intelligence. we can tell right from wrong. we can love and have compassion. in that sense we are similar to God. and so we create. God did not give us blueprints for a computer like you said. but he made us with an intelligence that permits such thing to be created. however, we are not God, because we cannot create out of nothing.

but the fact that we are made in Gods image is shown in the fact that we can create sophisticated things, and we have emotions and feelings that other animals do not have (though some behavior is similar).

so end rant. hope there aren't that many typos. im off to bed.

- Patty

*NS Skateboarders* Vas y il l'a cassé!

the previous might have been pure genious, but it wasn't my intention. sorry. that's why i put in all those typos...
 
^ what do you know about God? Personally, I was raised in a fairly religous family and this is one of the reasons why I am no longer religous. Whenever I asked someone else about god, all I got was broad, half-assed answers. A god never responded to any prayers (that what the church told me to do) and I have seen no evidence of such a being myself. Thats why personally, I reject the idea of a higher being. Sure there are religous texts such as the bible, but what does that tell us? Not a whole lot and definitely nothing concrete. This is why I put my faith in science. It has explained things such as weather and gravity, things VERY few creationists would argue against. But when science proposed an idea (evolution) which conflicted with their religion, they say it never happend or it is impossible.

Who knows, if I'm wrong and go to hell (or whatever you say exists after death) it really don't bother me. I'm going to TRY to explain all life's intricacies by whatever I seems most logical to me.

 
I know that his idea has been the cause of more war in our history than anything else. I know that his idea has helped millions upon millions of people show compassion for those who are less fortunate than they are. I know his idea has created fellowship among people and brought them together in a way that very few other things could do. I know that his idea has helped millions and millions of people come to terms with difficulties in thier own life, be it death or family problems or drug addictions. Is this not proof enough of his existance? even if his existance is only in the minds of the people who belive in him, God is obviously there. But it all goes back to what i was saying befor about religion being a cutural myth designed to make us feel better and more secure in our lives.

Its the same as the theroy of evolution. Its a theory which exists in the minds of people, and has been scientificly disproven. This means that evolution is just an Idea which some people turn to when they cant answer the big questions in life any other way.

And to those who said what i said about atheists was stupid and doesnt make sence. Why is it that atheists define them selves as "not belving in god" Why do you need to say that if god doesnt not exist? If you only say that "we come by chance and are part of nature" fine. But by saying you dont believe in god you are only perpetuating his idea.

Like a virgin on promnight!

-Thom Savery

please pardon the cacography

.C.C.R..P.P.P.

'naahhmahhnahh

hahhh ... i mean ... the weekend of monday'

"go down to the bottom bunk and finish yourself"

"I may be the last to cross the finish line, but at least im in the first race - pun intended"

 
If science is invalid and cannot prove evolution, how can science then disprove evolution?

Also, there have been millions of people who haven't turned to religion to fix their problems. Because someone said a prayer and a problem was solved, doesn't prove anything. There are an infinite number of factors that could have solved the problem.

Creationist say evolution cannot be proved and atheist/evolutionist say god cannot be proven. All this means, is nothing is absolute and nothing can be proven, ever. I acknowledge that their is the possibility I could be wrong, but the way I see the world lets me put my faith in science over religion. I'm not trying to change other people views, and you should not be either. I'm just explaining how I see the world.

 
How was God created, think about that. The question about life/death/afterlife is so mind boggling that if you think to much you realize that you'll never find out until the moment you die. I really dont believe the science theorys because i dont understand how the existance was made. I guess im thinking to hard, but if the big bang really happened what created the contained universe and the explosion. Maybe the answer is to simple for humans to find and that were completley missing something right in front of us. To go along with the point of this thread, being a dying Athiest would scare the shit out of me

don't let the days go by

glycerine

 
science isnt invalid. Do a google search for "evolution disproved" if you want answers. Google is great for questions like that. althought it might mean some reading. I mean, They teach evolution to us in school as if it is a fact, but it isnt. If it was it wouldnt be called a theory.

Like a virgin on promnight!

-Thom Savery

please pardon the cacography

.C.C.R..P.P.P.

'naahhmahhnahh

hahhh ... i mean ... the weekend of monday'

"go down to the bottom bunk and finish yourself"

"I may be the last to cross the finish line, but at least im in the first race - pun intended"

 
No one can prove anything ever. This just gives you something to think about, people who go around looking for all the answers are wasting there time on earth. Dont say that people who follow a religion are wasting their time because its a choice of theirs and enriches their life. My grandmother is a hardcore catholic, but she loves it.

don't let the days go by

glycerine

 
And there are a million websites also saying they can prove evolution. Results turned up by google are by no means an authority. And to speak in a strictly scientific sense, you can never either prove nor disprove a theory. The post above mine is right, you can never know anything for certain (I said it in my last post). That makes my point every bit as valid as yours.

I have nothing against creationist, I just personally think that they are wrong (thats why I'm an atheist). Believe what you want, thats part of life.

Finally, dieing atheist isn't really that scary (at least to me). Sure it sucks that death (may) be the end, but the thought of nothingness doesn't seem all too terribly frightening (too me at least).

 
You cant disprove a theory? ok. My theory is that you are 8 years old. I base this on your assuming that i was only talking about the number of hits on google instead of some of the actuall articles listed during the search. I also base this on your lack on intrest in reading those articles.

Like a virgin on promnight!

-Thom Savery

please pardon the cacography

.C.C.R..P.P.P.

'naahhmahhnahh

hahhh ... i mean ... the weekend of monday'

"go down to the bottom bunk and finish yourself"

"I may be the last to cross the finish line, but at least im in the first race - pun intended"

 
Technically a theory is something that can't be disproved... that's why its a theory that works. What science tries to do is disprove something, when it cannot do so, it becomes a theory. Like Einstiens Theory of Relativity. No one has ever disproved it, and it is accepted, just like the theory of Evolution.

Also, how do you explain the whole man/ape issue, Apple? There are fossils! You just ignore the facts and give broad answers.

I believe there is a God, just not that he simply pointed his finger and the whole Earth was made. regardless of what you say, evolution has not been disproved by any credible scientistic organization.

The scientific community, the brightest minds of God's children have come to the conclusion that we did indeed evolve from primitive apes, and that all life as we know it evolved from simple cells. If this intelligence that God gave us allows us to come up with REAL solutions to answers, why do some of us deny it?

My opinion is something like this: "God", or whatever it is, kinda put all the ingredients into a giant universe and stirred it up a little bit in order for something to happen, one of trillions of results was us and our solar system. If God has all the powers in the universe as you claim, then why would he be so into us? We're one gazillionth of the known-universe, what are we to Him?

Religion can be ok, but if you can get past the blind faith and truly think on it, how can it be true the way we are taught?

An after life of pure bliss for eternity... does that sound a little too good to be true to anyone else?

'Be a nice person, do this do that, and you will get everything in your wildest imagination!"

I believe in being a good person and most of the ideals that most religions teach, but there shouldnt be any limitations to the way you experience life.

 
"IF" God were powerful enough to create the universe, he could do anything at all, and therefore you can't argue it. Don't you see, thats like saying "Well no matter what anyone ever proves, it is wrong, because God is all-powerful and he can do anything he wants."

If I said that 4+4=8, you could say that God is all powerful and that, no, God says that 4+4 now equals 3. it doesnt have to make sense because he created the freakin universe! He's freakin amazing and can do whatever he wants...

Even if I could prove to you that 4+4=8, and the bible said that it equaled 3, you would tell me that I was wrong... This is the reason I don't like religion as we know it.

 
First of all, I made it quite clear what i belive early one. Religions are just biproducts of societies which can not understand their existance and purpose and are simply afriad of what will become of them. God exists because we have created him in our culture. God, as we know him, did not create us. But i am not saying that evolution is the true answer either. Theroy's can not be proven, yes. because thats all it is, a theory. An Idea created in the minds of people (much like the idea of god).

But theroy's can be disproven. The only theorys which stand the test of time are the ones which people can not find any way to disprove, that not to say that in the future they wont be disproved. The world was flat, Now its round. The earth was the center of the solar system, Now the sun is. Its a preception issue, and preception is a very tricky concept.

Evolution is the popular answer for science right now, but the mathamatics of evolution just dont work. It is a flawed theory. Maybe its partly right, but it is just the best guess that we have to scientificly explain our existance, but it isnt correct and true. Like several people have said, No one really knows how we got here, or why we got here and very few people actually belive that we dont have some kinda of purpose. Its not comforting to think that were were just a chance mistake that can be whiped out just as easliy as we were created. God gives the comfort that we need.

People always ask "if god made everything, then who made god" and the answer to that is simple. We made god. Thats all there is too it. He is a projection of ourselves in an ideal cultural sence. We created an afterlife our of fear. But just because we created them, doesnt make them any less real. Again, its a preception thing. If I dream about a monster, is not that monster real in my dream? Do i not get the adrenaline rush and feel the fear which i would feel were I to meet the monster while i was awake? That monster is real to me, even though its just created in my mind.

Someone said earlier that we can not creat from nothing like god can, But i beg to differ. We can creat from nothing. is not this post a product of my mind, created from nothing and comunicated to you using symbols so you can understand it?

If you wanna get really far out there, which i dont, but am going to anyways because its a fun idea to entertain, We are greater than god because we created him.

But I think that I have suitably gone offtopic and started to think crazy thoughts... sooo stoping now.

Like a virgin on promnight!

-Thom Savery

please pardon the cacography

.C.C.R..P.P.P.

'naahhmahhnahh

hahhh ... i mean ... the weekend of monday'

"go down to the bottom bunk and finish yourself"

"I may be the last to cross the finish line, but at least im in the first race - pun intended"

 
Exactly!! if you think to hard about this subject you'll go insane. Its the never ending question, just when you think you've gotten close you couldnt be more far away. I could be talking crazy cause ive been smoking all day after finals and tommorows my last day of school.

don't let the days go by

glycerine

 
Ok yeah, I totally agree with you on all of that stuff about God and everything. And its true macro-evolution will probably never be proven beyond a doubt, but it makes more sense than God shooting lightning out of his fingers, and then voila: Man.

But what about all the humanoid fossils they've found, tens of thousands of years old, somewhere between man and ape? Isn't that proof of some kind of evolution? And they are pretty certain types of dinosaurs evolved into birds.

I definatley agree you could go crazy if you think about this stuff too much.

Here's another crazy thought... What if this isnt even our real life? What if its like some kind of crazy virtual reality game that we are playing thousands of years in the future. I mean look at how far games have come since Pong, and that was only a few decades ago. In a thousand years games would be so amazing and so emersive, who knows! I know its pretty 'out there', but every once in a while its fun to think about stuff like that.

 
^sometimes i donvince myself that my "life" is just a dream i'm having. one of those really long realistic dreams that you wake up from and can't believe they were dreams and not reality. and then i get freaked out.

-Lauren
 
ONe thing about htis thread really bothers me. Allright, Im an athiest I suppose, but I woudl believe in something if I had a reason to, but whatever thats besides the point.

I really dont like it, and dont think it is truly believing or what god wants, when people say that they believe in god because they have a higher chance of being right and going to heaven. That's not believing, thats just being rediclous. Goign to churhc and saying I believe in god because my chance of goign to heaven is higher is not cool. If you dont have the faith to truly believe, then dont say you believe.

-Michael Lifshitz-dfpJibberishradical
 
as the bishops said during the crusades when they were about to kill over 20 000 people in a town because the "heathan" cathars (sp?) looked exactly like good christians and they couldnt tell who was bad and who was good... "God will know his own".

But on to nine_milla_k.... Yah, it lends alot of credibility to the theory of evolution to have these missing links, and ofcouse people could just say "well god created them for us to find" and who knows, maybe god is a practical joker... thats besides the point. Im not saying something like evolution didnt happen, i dont know that it didnt. Im simply saying that evolution as the theory states it is actually not a possibilitly. Something like it might have occourd, but lets do a comparison, because i have already made the comparison between our creative capibilities and gods... The computer you are using right now. What are the chances of something so complex and sophisticated occouring naturaly? With internet conection and all, Even if it had the time to evolve its self the probility is so small....If we did not create it, it would have never created its self. The same can be said of us. We are infinatly more complex than a computer, Yet after a few million years, we went from a microscopic cell to what we are now with out any outside intervention? If thats the case, i should by more lottery tickets cause I am damn lucky...

At this point, who knows, Maybe Douglas Adams had it right when he wrote that were are simply part of a computer program designed to find the question to the ultimate answer of 42. Personaly, I like to think of my life as a dream, just like Thisangelicrage does. Ill wake up one day to another life, maybe getting ready to go to school, maybe about to go camping, maybe ill wake up to a crying child that is my own. If this is all a dream, then maybe every night when I go to sleep i create relaties inside of my mind no less real to me than the world we are all in right now, and to who ever my character is in that reality, this life i live now is a sort of afterlife.

I dont like to think of this as a virtural reality game though, simply because i kinda hope that technology never gets to advanced just for entertainment pourpouses. A world so lost in technology wouldnt be any place that i would want to be living. Again, this brings me back to anxieties. A personal anxiety of mine is that we will become too dependent on technology that we do not understand and if civilization colapsed, we could not maintain and then would become helpless. It makes me fell better to not accept that this is a video game being played by some 12 yearold. When you start to think about really abstract consepts like this, it is really improtant to keep a good hold on who you realy are. how you feel. and what this perception of reality has to offer you.

On a side note, someone at somepoint said somthing about reancarnation, which is an intresting concept. Because in the most scietific sence, we are all reancarnated as something else, weather its part of a worm eating our body, or a blade of grass, the physical matter of our bodies is absorbed by the world and recycled. Who knows, Maybe 5% of your body has been someone elses body before. A literal reancarnation. I wish i knew how to spell that word.

Like a virgin on promnight!

-Thom Savery

please pardon the cacography

.C.C.R..P.P.P.

'naahhmahhnahh

hahhh ... i mean ... the weekend of monday'

"go down to the bottom bunk and finish yourself"

"I may be the last to cross the finish line, but at least im in the first race - pun intended"

 
after reading a lot of your posts thom, i at least think that there is some kind of paradox in what you are saying. now, i haven.t been very alert lately, but i seem to think that you aren't following your own logic.

in the quoted post, you say, and i agree, that we are far more complex than a computer, and that it is an impossibility for a computer to be made out of its components (like carbon ans silicon) by pure utter chance. it implies design. and since we are by far more complicated than a computer, we would imply design.

as i have said before, intelligence spawns intelligence, complex spawns complex, and for a random occurence that has no trigger to do such things is impossible. i think you would consider us as intelligent, right? our self awareness and phylosophical thoughts show intelligence as we know it. and such intelligence, unless we ourselves are eternal, must have come from an intelligent design, as such random change from bacteria to ourselves cannot produce it.

so so far we agree i think, that we imply a design. but then you say that God is a figment of our imagination. i don't follow you from here. if he truely is a just a concept in our mind, then how do you explain a very obvious design in our being? i understand that Gods presence and his concept resides in our mind, but does that make it an invention on our behalf? or is it genetic, since all humans grasp the supernatural and can comprehend a God on our limited human knowledge? because so far, if we are the product of evolution or such a natural occurence, what need be to have a superior being? and i do not believe that God serves only as a moral compass, because many people can show kindness without any kind of God.

i think i will post this, from st anslem:

''Therefore, Lord, you who give knowledge of the faith, give me as much knowledge as you know to be fitting for me, because you are as we believe and that which we believe. And indeed we believe you are something greater than which cannot be thought. Or is there no such kind of thing, for 'the fool said in his heart, 'there is no God'' (Ps. 13:1, 52:1)? But certainly that same fool, having heard what I just said, 'something greater than which cannot be thought,' understands what he heard, and what he understands is in his thought, even if he does not think it exists. For it is one thing for something to exist in a person's thought and quite another for the person to think that thing exists. For when a painter thinks ahead to what he will paint, he has that picture in his thought, but he does not yet think it exists, because he has not done it yet. Once he has painted it he has it in his thought and thinks it exists because he has done it. Thus even the fool is compelled to grant that something greater than which cannot be thought exists in thought, because he understands what he hears, and whatever is understood exists in thought. And certainly that greater than which cannot be understood cannot exist only in thought, for if it exists only in thought it could also be thought of as existing in reality as well, which is greater. If, therefore, that than which greater cannot be thought exists in thought alone, then that than which greater cannot be thought turns out to be that than which something greater actually can be thought, but that is obviously impossible. Therefore something than which greater cannot be thought undoubtedly exists both in thought and in reality.''

-St. Anselm

this i think makes a good case for our mind not creating a God. because if he doesn't exist, why would we have a concept of him, if we are just animals on the same scale as all others? and this is basicaly saying that a God, which is greater than anything, cannot be greater then anything if he does not exist in reality. this does not mean that santa claus exists becausse we can imagine him. for him to be real he has to have some impact on the world. and since God is greater then everything, he must exist to be the greatest thing ever. coupled with the obvious signs of design, this shows he has an influence on the world and therefore is the greates possible thing.

i do not know how logical my premises have been. and for the originator of the thread, when i say "if" in a question, most often it is rhetorical, and implies that it is true, or untrue, according to the context.

so thom i am just wondering about wether youa re following your own logic to its conclusion, many times such paths or argument and logical conclusion have brought many a philospher to faith in a God (most recently a leading man in atheistic philosophy, forget his name.), and rarely the other way.

as for fossil evidence of a link between man and apes, there is only evidence when interpreted throught the evolutionnary link lens. same for the birds and dinosaur thing. rarely, if you look closely, does it actually point in the evolutionnary way, take this for example, i have quoted it before:

Birds

A bird’s wings are made of feathers. A feather is a marvel of light weight engineering. Though light, it is very wind-resistant. This is because there is a clever system of barbs and barbules. Each barb of a feather is visible to the naked eye and comes off the main stem. What is not generally realized is that on either side of the barb are further tiny barbules which can only be seen under a microscope. These are of different types, depending on whether they are coming from one side of the barb or the other. On one side of the barb, ridged barbules will emerge, while on the other side, the barbules will have hooks. Thus, the hooks coming out of one barb will connect with ridges reaching in the opposite direction from a neighboring barb. The hooks and ridges act like “velcro,� but go one stage further, since the ridges allow a sliding joint, and there is thus an ingenious mechanism for keeping the surface flexible and yet in-tact.

The next time you see a flight feather on the ground, remem ber it is a marvel of lightweight, flexible, aerodynamic engineering. Reptile scales have no hint of such complicated machinery. Stahl has freely admitted, “No fossil structure transitional between scale and feather is known, and recent investigators are unwilling to found a theory on pure speculation.�

There is no genetic information within reptile scales to allow such a unique device as the sliding joint of a feather to be made. The tortuous route suggested by some of small “advantaged mutations� to scales leads to clumsy structures which are, in fact, a disadvantage to the creature. Not until all the hook and ridge structure is in place is there any advantage, even as a vane for catching insects! Unless one invokes some “thinking ahead� planning, [Mommy Nature making selections?] there is no way that chance mutations could produce the “idea� of the cross- linking of the barbules to make a connecting lattice. Even if the chance mutation of a ridge/hook occurs in two of the barbules, there is no mechanism for translating this “advantage� to the rest of the structure. This is a classic case of irreducible complexity which is not consistent with slow evolutionary changes, but quite consistent with the notion of design.

But that is not all. Even if one had the feather, the delicate lattice structure would soon become frayed, unless there was also oil to lubricate the sliding joint made by the hooked and ridged barbules. Most of us realize that once the barbs of a feather have been separated, it is difficult to make them come back together.The feather becomes easily frayed in the absence of oil, which a bird provides from its preening gland at the base of its spine. Some of this oil is put on its beak and spread throughout the feathers, which for a water bird also gives waterproofing of its surface (thus, water slides off a duck’s back). Without the oil the feathers are useless, so even if a supposed land-dwelling dinosaur got as far as wafting a wing, it would be no use after a few hours!

As one might expect, however, the story does not end there either, for a bird can fly only because it also has an exceedingly light bone structure, which is achieved by the bones being hollow. Many birds maintain skeleton strength by cross members within the hol low bones. Such an arrangement began to be used in the middle of this century for aircraft wings and is termed the “Warren’s truss arrangement.� Large birds, such as an eagle or a vulture, would sim ply break into pieces in midair if there were some supposed halfway stage in their skeletal development where they had not yet “developed� such cross members in their bones.

i blieve there is plenty of proof for a bible God, a Creator God. and that seems to follow apples logic, up to the invention of God, which his "invention" really just proof of his existence, like you have said thom, over and over...

don't know if this helps, but hey.

- Patty

*NS Skateboarders* Vas y il l'a cassé!

the previous might have been pure genious, but it wasn't my intention. sorry. that's why i put in all those typos...
 
Speaking in strictly scientific terms, You can NEVER disprove a theory (nor prove it). Ask any competent person of some science background and they will tell you this is how science works. The best we can do is either recognize the theory as probally correct. Hhave you ever heard of Lemarckian Thoery of Evolution? We are ALMOST 100% sure its incorrect, but in science nothing is definite so therefore we cannot disprove it. As for evolution there is a ton of evidence to support it, but we can only recognize it as a theory. Nothing is absolute, not even mathematics.

 
actually, you can disprove a theory, if its logic and scinetific accuracy is doubtful. disproving in the sense of it no longer being scientific, and relegated to a faith, or a dogma, but not a scientific premise.

the leaps of faith involved in the evolution theory, and that of the big bang for that matter, though with some foundation grounded in observation, are just too big to keep calling it scientific. the galapagos islands? only a laboratory for natural selection, a loss of genetic info, and not a creation of info, like evolution would suggest, demonstrated by the tortoises, on 4 seperate occasions on 4 seperate islands, that have developped a "saddle" shell to reach higher foods by allowing them to strech their necks further. evolution cannot have produce the EXACT same modification on 4 seperate occasions. this is by natural selection, where genetic info is transferred by the strongest animal that has a modification in its genes favorising its survival as opposed to another. when the other animals without that mod die, then the gene pool is reduced, not widened. this is consistent with God creating all animals with the necessary alleles to adapt and populate the earth and not with the evolution of a species into another animal through mutations that make the gene pool bigger by creating new things in the animal. all of the information was there before. how else than by a design?

i mean, science is observation. the only thing humans can do is observe. we can only understand how something works, and then make an educated guess of how it came to be. but we cannot know how it came to be. when you say science, it means observe, reproducing the observation until something is "proven" by observation. but you cannot know how it came to be. its a logical fallacy in the evolution theory. as for me and numerous others, i see Gods design in the world, in my classmates and in the forests. this is observation, which is the only way to prove something: to observe it. science has yet to come up with any intermediate species for anything, and have not found any living animals today that are in a stage of macro evolution. they haven't. they have not observed any of it. just interpreted it through a lens of what they want to find.

so in that sense, i think you can disprove, or at least invalidate any theory, if it does not have the observation (read:science) behind it.

- Patty

*NS Skateboarders* Vas y il l'a cassé!

the previous might have been pure genious, but it wasn't my intention. sorry. that's why i put in all those typos...
 
^Yes, there are theories which we don't accept. For these theories the evidence seems to invalidate the theory like you said. However, to prove something means that thing (theory) is absolute. There cannot be any exceptions. In this extremely complex world, there are always exceptions and people are always discovering (observing) new things.

People use the word prove loosely, saying things such as "so and so theory has been disproven." However in science, they admit that nothing is absolutely proven. Although there may be a seemingly infinite amount of evidence, science recognizes that things go on we cannot observe and that more evidence may arise at later time. So science may accept a theory as true or untrue, however they will never say it has been (dis)proven, because that makes it absolute.

 
So you really are 8? and the earth really is flat? and not only is it flat but we are at the center of the universe? and zeus really is pouring buckets of water from olympus right now?

patty, my friend, You probaly do find alot of illogical conclusions in my posts because i dont know why my conclusions are. This, as it turns out, is a great thread for putting ones own thoughts down. I know that there is contridiction in what im saying. But i still hold strong to my belife that god is a creation of our own minds.

But it is all an issue of preceptiion. You used santa clause as your example. We created him from nothing, so he does not exist. right? not entirly. Ask any 5 year old who brings them presents on christmas morning and they will look at you like your an idiot and say "Santa brings me toys if iv been a good boy". To that child, Santa is real. He exists. He is fat and jolly and likes milk and cookies. But how is this possible if we created him? We know he doesnt really exist, yet this child is steadfast in his belife that he does. Of couse, it helps that we manifest his existance by giving presents to children and filling stalkings and going along with the myth, But is not that exactly what we do with god? We see things so complex and we couldnt have concived them and we automaticly assume that it had to be god. Of course, if we were a greek from BC450, just 450 years prior ot jesus, we would look at the world and atribute things to a number of diffrent gods, The first humans would have sprung from the teeth of a dragon planted in the dirt and when it rained zeus would pour buckets of watter down for our feirlds to drink. If we were women would would partake in rituals for bacchus by getting drunk, dancing to the point of hystaria and hunting down wild animals with our bare hans (who we belived to be the god Bacchus him self) and eat the raw flesh and drink the blood... sound familiar? It should. This is the baises of comunion as we know it.

So, if the greeks, who would have been created by our god who created everything, didnt even know have a concept of his existance, why is it that we are suddenly aware of the almightys devine plan and power? Its preception.

I know im not doing a good job of explaining this preception issue though... its really hard to get a solid grasp on it. Its really an issue of Fact vs. Truth. The facts are that god created us, or that we evolved from some kinda goo. But the truth is neither of those things. We just can not precive the truth so we creat some facts to put in its place that will last till we decided that our facts are incorect and we create new ones. I guess what im saying is that it wasnt a god as we know it who created everything, and we didnt evolve, but something else which we currently can not precive and maybe wont ever be able to precive.

Preception is a very powerful thing. I was given this example of preception to help me understand it. So there is a snail, a dog and a Human, standing miles apart in an equalatrial triangle. In the middle of the triangle, there is an nucular explosion. The human see the blast, previces it as a nuculer explosion, quickly comes to terms with the fact he is about to die and under his breath utters "oh fuck". The dog, seeing the same explosion precives it as a threat that if he runs away from fast enough, he will be able to escape, so his last seconds of life have him running away from impending doom. The snail doesnt even notice anything our of the ordinary and continues to slime its way slong the grass and is killed shortly afterwards. One truth, Three diffrent preceptions. Maybe that makes what im trying to say a little clearer.

Like a virgin on promnight!

-Thom Savery

please pardon the cacography

.C.C.R..P.P.P.

'naahhmahhnahh

hahhh ... i mean ... the weekend of monday'

"go down to the bottom bunk and finish yourself"

"I may be the last to cross the finish line, but at least im in the first race - pun intended"

 
yea, i have that same feeling in these threads. they really help put what you believe into written form and get a grasp on them. i just felt that you were straying from your logic, which you rarely do.

i do however believe that you are mistaken in our "sudden" belief in a single creating God. the God of the bible, as we know him, was there at the beginning of time. he has always been present, and man has always had a relationship and a belief in him. he is the original God. this is true when you use the Bible as historic fact, as in the generations of men and the chronology of history according to the bible. the bible is the genealogic tree of human kind, and as a historic text it has some backing through the ages.

this means that the greek Gods were a pagan belief, another one that developped during the antiquity, but does not mean that people did not follow God. all the other people than the chosen people of isreal were coming up with their own religious beliefs, with the belief in Yahweh still going, just a closed belief.

history went on. in the book of Job you find hints to an ice age (the ices covering the earth), all the way to mesopotamia that we know today as iraq and israel. there are consistencies all the way through the bible as to historical happenings, and can be a reference book.

Then came Jesus, and the new testament. from here, according to the book of acts, the apostles started spreading the word of God to the gentilles, who need't be circumsized to be part of the Body of Christ. this is around 50 or so AD. so the belief in the Original Creator is fairly recent, but only among the whole world. the Jews of Israel (by that i mean Gods chosen people) had had a relationship since the beginning.

then came the renaissance, which sparkled a new interest in God, a return to the original plan for the Church, ie a singular relationship with God and a study of the bible, and no longer the catholic churches hierarchy and you could say tyranny of the mind of the illeterate masses.

so the belief in the Bible God is original if you take the bible as historic fact, which you should, seeing as it is one of the oldest texts if not the oldest text in human history (i think it started in moses' time, so the egyptians might have had earlier discovered texts...)

so this is no new thing.

also, santa claus is a myth perprtrated by parents, originaly to get good behavior out of their kids and to teach them that good gets good rewards. in a certain light, you could assimilate that to God and religion. except that God is an inate sense in all of us. there are stories, like that of one tibetam kid, that saw the world and did not understand it. and with no teaching whatsoever, began to believe in something higher than him. his search lead him to london, where he met a christian person, who talked to him about God. to which the tibetam kid answered along the lines of: "i have been looking for him for some time now". santa however, is a marquetting ploy by coca cola and utilized by parents to keep their kids in check for the holidays. and is not inate to anyone.

i believe that our self awareness and the simple fact that we are discussing this topic proves more than anything i can say. the fact that we are discussing it is indeniable and therefore that something other than our reason is there. because if we are challenged by questions that boggle our minds, these questions must be answered by something with a bigger intellect than us, no?

and thom, my friend, no worries. if at college level for you or high school level for me we can understand the works of the universe, then i see no more reason to go to school....

i have a hard time understanding the ways of God, but i have looked at what science offers, and i feel safe in saying, that the Bible God makes sense in every aspect, and when challenged and in doubt, God has never let me down in strenghtening my faith and my love for him and his for me when i find the answers in his Word and in other Christians.

these threads are a good way to measure up your beliefs and make some sense out of them. i hope it made sense to you.

- Patty

*NS Skateboarders* Vas y il l'a cassé!

the previous might have been pure genious, but it wasn't my intention. sorry. that's why i put in all those typos...
 
Gravity and combustion are "just" theories too. Care to disprove them?

It's really easy to deny a concept like evolution because have never seen the impact it has on us (because it requires death and long periods of time). I

t's also convenient that we deny evolution because it contradicts most traditional religious beliefs (note I said religious beliefs, not existence of GOD). There's plenty of people who think evolution is complete crap solely because it doesn't fit with their version of religion-based reality.

Since we're talking about theories, let's talk about gravity. You'll be hard pressed to find a bunch of people running around talking about how gravity doesn't exist. Yes, that was supposed funny. Why? Because they wouldn't be "running around" if there wasn't gravity...ha ha ha... a real knee slapper. :D

Anyways, that's an observation I had. I'm not taking sides here, just pointing out some human tendencies.

[/b]I spit in the face of your preachers and leaders

Spewing false dogma to their believers

A nation of fools, nothing but sheep

Their fangs in your flesh, so painful and deep

 
Actually, there are people who belive gravity to be a push, not a pull. How it works isnt important, the fact of the mater is my feet stay on the ground. I can see that. its real and experianceable, no matter what might be the cause. Its the same with evolution and with god. We are here. Thats whats important. How we got here, we dont know for certian, so we create something to fill the void, because if there is one thing that we hate, Its not knowing the answer.

and pat, who is to say that the greeks were wrong? the greeks, or for a better example, the egyptions, would have belived that the hebews and jews were wrong in their beliefs. It all goes back to what i said wayyy back in this thread about how if you arnt part of so and so's religion, your going to hell, so we are all going to some version of hell no matter what we do. Its a preception. Its almost brainwashing. Iv seen some pretty interesting stuff (although very far fetched) on how religions are just a mechanism used to control societeis. But it is all just a learned preception of reality.

Like a virgin on promnight!

-Thom Savery

please pardon the cacography

.C.C.R..P.P.P.

'naahhmahhnahh

hahhh ... i mean ... the weekend of monday'

"go down to the bottom bunk and finish yourself"

"I may be the last to cross the finish line, but at least im in the first race - pun intended"

 
You cannot prove or disprove a scientific theory. I have had a few science professors at my university explain this to me in detail. I would tend to think they would know whats up. But what do they know? The also believe in evolution so they must be a bunch of kooks.

Just a question, how did a higher being/form come into existance? If one exists, it had to stem from somewhere.

 
So how can the earth be flat and round at the same time? two facts presented as truthes, only one of them is right. Im sure we can agree on that. But i guess ill just have to wait till september when i go back to university so i can have a proff explain it to me aswell. Because i have always been taught that theorys can not be proven, but they can be proven not a possibility. I keep going back to my theory that you are 8 years old. It isnt based on sound logic and has little to no supporting evidence. Your saying your going to university proves it wrong. No 8 year olds go to university, ever. There, the theory was proven wrong.

And to answer your question, a higher being didnt have to stem from anywhere, it could have just always been around. Is it not possible that an all knowing all powerful being might exist outside the boundries of time and therefor not have a beginning or an end?

But to tell you the truth, im more confused about my beliefs now than i was when i started discussion in this thread. There just has to be some other way that we havent yet precived. not creation, not evolution-but something like evolution. I just dont know anymore.

Like a virgin on promnight!

-Thom Savery

please pardon the cacography

.C.C.R..P.P.P.

'naahhmahhnahh

hahhh ... i mean ... the weekend of monday'

"go down to the bottom bunk and finish yourself"

"I may be the last to cross the finish line, but at least im in the first race - pun intended"

 
ns-based intillectual debates are like trying to get into my pants...easy to start, and it will always leave you stunned when you find....

official NS bitch
 
alright here's how it goes

some hairy dude back in da day is hiding like a pussy in a storm, and then this lightning comes down and catches this tree on fire.

upon closer inspection, the fire kept him warm, and later this dude found out that if you cook your raw elephant dink over the fire, you don't get dieseases and die.

Then more discoveries were found, like hammers and arrows and all kinds of einstien shit. Soon, the same kinda pussy dude hiding from the storm had a lot of free time on his hands.

What to do? Who the hell cares, he can think for himself now...then he really started thinking...

Why am I here? omg are those implants? Do you think I should get a penis enlarger?

And amongst other things, this guy thought about how himself and everything else was created

Still not being the brightest neanderthal in the herd, he could only think of the easiest way out...

The same way that he made the tools, someone must have made the trees and animals and shit.

Then this docuhe got corrupted and wrote his ideas down in a little book like a thousand years later, and still thousands of years later, the same guy is believing it.

wow, that was a cool story, it should go in the nwe thread

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~***************~~~~~~~~~~~~

If it aint Gorilla, it aint Steeze

 
yea, confusion is kinda setting in.

and thom, who is to say that the egyptians were right, either?

from here, to "prove" my faith vis a vis of anyone elses, is not something i wish to do at all. however, with Jesus, the Son of God, christians have a "proof" of God and of his word being fufilled. Has any other religion had such a defining figure, the son of the God we worship? and i don't mean prophets like mohammed and demi gods like buddah.

seeing as i need to go, let me say this: no one dies for something they know to be untrue, and as eye witnesses to Jesus, his apostles died for him. they would not have died if they did not believe this to be true.

and as for mind control, well, i gave up my freedom of thought a long time ago. i sold that to fox news. ;)

- Patty

*NS Skateboarders* Vas y il l'a cassé!

the previous might have been pure genious, but it wasn't my intention. sorry. that's why i put in all those typos...
 
There is nothing scientific about your theory that I am 8 years old. And everyone knows the earth is round and we all accept that. Its just a technicality, we prove theories in a non-scientific sense all the time. Just in science, scientist are smart enough to realize that things can change or they can discover new evidence no matter how unlikely it may seem. We are pretty damn sure the earth is round and we are pretty damn sure we aren't going to find any evidence to change that, but scientist still leave some room for change (even if we are completely sure it will not change). So technically, they say you can never prove or disprove a scientific theory. However you can be 99.99999999999....% sure that something is correct or incorrect. Is my point making sense yet? We are only speaking science here, not common everyday usage of proving a theory.

 
I believe that set religion in my opinion is stupid. Ibelieve in many aspects of different religions and spirituality. I do belive that there is an almighty in some form and that there is a heaven. Besides that I think that we will all be reincarnated at one point after chilling in heaven. I also believe that if we are reincarnated we may exist on another solar system or as any animal familiar to us or not. Overall I think set religion is too conservative and people should believe in many beliefs rather than just following the same beliefs one set religion teaches. I think by believing in a variety of beliefs makes you more of an individual

 
seriously, awesome quote.

-Joel

~Phunkin Phatt Phreerider~
Capital City Rider, DFP
Silent Army

'Everybody calls me a zero. But I'm an internet hero.'
 
heres a really well made animation on the subject, just the time for the brains of the NS philosophers to relax a little...

http://www.3dluvr.com/ruairi/fiftypercentgrey/video.htm

Gravity sucks

'Weighing in at only 125 lbs, I could easily bench double my weight as a senior in H.S.; maxing out at an outstanding 245 lbs. I still had the build of a small person.' - d-loc

"I only drink on 2 occasions. When I'm thirsty, and when I'm not."
 
Good thread... bump

I'm Christian but I never go to church or pray or anything.. I just am Christian... Whenever I think about it I think it doesn't make sense to have one God create all of the universe and that all religon is based on stories passed down from generations. I think humans evolved from a single cell because the whole Adam and Eve thing makes no sense, the whole bible is just stories either made up or exaggerated.. some might be true. That's just what I think though
 
sorry to say, but i think you may have to reevaluate your belief in christianity and your being christian if that is what you believe...especially if you actually believe this :"the whole bible is just stories either made up or exaggerated..".
 
i dont believe in any higher power, but ive preatty much accepted that if there is, im going to Hell. and me and the Devil, we gonna be tight.
 
Well I'm baptised and stuff, but I never go to church or anything. I went to catholic schools and stuff like that too. I just don't find the bible very believeable, like someone wrote it and stuck it in a cave or something, someone found it and read it then a religon was based around it. Now millions of people believe in a myth pretty much.

It's like if you found Homer's Odyssey and based a religon on it.
 
read Evidence That Demands a Verdict, by Josh Mcdowell on that.

and again, sorry to say, but you're baptised? so what? that doesn't in and of itself make you a christian in any sense of the term.

being christian requires a confession of faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God, dying for your sins on the cross and being raised on the third day, which im pretty sure you don't have from what you've said, and belief in what the Bible teaches us about Christ, which you don't have, either.

being baptised as a child in no way makes you a christian, same with going to church. your faith does.
 
christianity started with Jesus Christ and the first church around 50 AD... Christianity has existed for over 1900 years man.
 
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