Should Uncle Sam Tax Churches?

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http://www.dailyfinance.com/2012/08/22/should-uncle-sam-tax-churches/

I had this conversation today i think we should.

Are America's churches preventing NASA from winning the space race?

Given SpaceX's recent completion of the first-ever privately run mission to the International Space Station, and NASA's wildly improbable and spectacularly successful landing on Mars, it actually looks like we're doing OK in space. And yet, if you haven't heard, there's a new photo that's been making waves on the Interwebs lately that argues the contrary:

No one's quite certain who thought it up, but the photo's footnotes suggest it probably originated with a June column in USA Today. That column, in turn, cited University of Tampa professor Ryan Cragun, who argued that if you add up the value of all the tax exemptions religious organizations receive -- on tithes, capital gains on church assets, and so on -- the IRS probably loses $71 billion in potential revenues. In other words, enough money to pay for 28.4 "Curiosity" missions to Mars annually.

Is it true?

Lord Knows...

Maybe, maybe not. The fact that most churches in the U.S. are tax exempt (as nonprofit organizations) tends to yield inexact calculations of assets and income numbers that, even if known, still wouldn't be taxed. (So why bother?) It leads, too, to some wild-eyed guesswork among pundits.

For example, in a Huffington Post column last year, former White House staffer Jeff Schweitzer made the broad assertion that church real estate assets in America could be worth anywhere from "$300 billion to $500 billion." With state property tax rates in the U.S. averaging about 1.5%, this suggests potential "lost" property tax revenues of $7.5 billion.

As for the rest of the taxable loot, most of it comes from tithes and offerings. While not all such donations are reported or taken as tax deductions by the givers, The New York Times puts the value of charitable donations to churches in 2009 at "about" $115 billion. Taxed at a 40% combined federal and state corporate tax rate, that's another $46 billion in revenue foregone by the tax man.

Result: These two items alone bring us within spitting distance of Prof. Cragun's "$71 billion." Add in tax exemptions for capital gains, "parsonage allowances," and individual tax deductions for charitable donations, and the professor's assertion looks close to the mark.

But the question remains: If we tap this treasure trove of potential tax revenues, what then? Will we really be able to turn Mars into a space-rover parking lot?

Be Careful What You Wish For

The money's there for the taxing, no doubt. Proponents of religious tax exemptions, however, warn that if you do tax the Church, the social consequences will be dire.

Charitable institutions, by definition, spend money on charitable works. Take the money away, and the charity goes away, too -- and the government might have to step right back in and use its new tax revenues to make up the difference.

So how does this argument stand up to examination?

A 2009 study of church revenues and expenditures, conducted by NationalChristianPoll.com on behalf of Christianity Today International, found that salaries for church employees consumed approximately 38% of annual church revenues, with building maintenance eating up a further 12%. Add in a host of other expenses, though, and most churches were still able to allocate at least 17% of revenues to the categories of "ministries," "domestic missions," and "international missions," with further funds going to "Christian Education," "educational institutions," and "summer Bible school" -- all of which can broadly be defined as charitable work.

This broadly accords with a similar 2009 study reported on ChristianPost.com, which reported that on average, 14.3% of church revenues in America went toward charitable work.

Taking the more conservative of these numbers, this suggests American churches spend about $16 billion on charity. Even after you factor in spending by religious institutions from other faiths, though, the total's still nowhere near $71 billion -- and that's the real import of this research.

Two Things Are Certain: Taxes, and Death by Taxes

If the IRS were to siphon $71 billion from America's religious institutions, as Prof. Cragun (and the anonymous Internet poster-maker) urge, two effects seem certain:

First, church charitable work would be decimated. With 62% of annual tithes and offerings being diverted to the IRS, churches would be hard pressed to find funds for charity. (Government would step in to fill the gap, of course, but at the expense of at least a half-dozen of Prof. Cragun's rovers.)

Second, because after-tax income would no longer cover the bills, churches would need to seek money elsewhere to pay their expenses. Presumably, they would have to sell off church assets to raise funds. The result would be a smaller Church presence in America, and incidentally, less and less tax revenue for the IRS with each passing year.

In sum, Prof. Cragun is right that taxing the Church would generate money for the IRS -- but probably a lot less money than advocates of Church-taxation suggest, buying a lot fewer rovers than we were promised.
 
honestly, i don't give a fuck whether it's NASA, SpaceX or any other space organisations. just get the church off this fucking planet - they are not a charity, they are most definitely not non-profit; look at what it costs just to be a church member.

church is a place for people who can't be bothered to think for themselves, who feel sorry for themselves, who are scared of god and hell because people tell them to be, and for people who can't find anything real to follow in life.

space.

space is the future, we're far too late already, but at least that means we have the technology now. there are billions more possibilities for our human race to explore, and they start by exploring space.

if we want to get fucked up and stay as hating, fighting, separated nations, then keep the church. if we want to advance civilisation, people need to realise that space is the way forward.
 
yes. too many "churches" exist just to take advantage of loopholes.

and the fact that they make all this money and pay nothing is criminal. Take that money, and just to spite them, give it straight to nasa
 
Taxe the churches, and then give it to social development and environmental initiatives!!! woooo!! I think space is cool but not 974987397489743 dollers cool. Also, if were going to spend money on exploration the ocean is way cooler imo, and there's plenty'o exploring to be done there.
 
Absolutely there are some churches that take advantage of loopholes and crap like that, but not all of them. I have gone to two churches regularly (one growing up and another the past 9 or so years) and have been an active member of both. Both are completely transparent with where money goes and nothing is ever done for a profit. Of course a bunch of the money goes towards salaries (it's not that much) and building maintenance and the rest goes in to supporting programs that help others. Significant thought goes into who the church is going to support and what organizations financial support goes to. How is that any different than any other non-profit out there?
 
hahaha this is such an ridiculously ignorant post. "look what it costs to be a church member?" uhh im pretty sure that would be $0. oh and blaming the worlds problems on churches? you must be REAL informed on world events. Im pretty sure I just got trolled but oh well
 
You're the ignorant one if you honestly don't realize that the church institutions and religion as a whole, has/have a detrimental effect on the world as a whole. Look at the last 20+ years, 90% of the wars/genocides are religiously based. YOU need to look at WORLD events.
 
Tax the Catholic church!

But seriously, I wouldn't deny there are some church organizations that should be taxed; however, I'd bet that the vast majority of churches are not hoarding a bunch of money that could be taxed, but are putting it towards valuable social programs that overall benefit their communities. I think it'd be a shame to put those dollars towards the IRS, which then would have to make up for the void they've created in community programs.

I don't really believe in organized religion, but I'd say the majority of people who go to church are good people who want to help others. My parents, for instance, aren't super religious/preachy, but they go to church every sunday, but I feel like it's more for the social aspect of it. Also, it's a nondenominational congregational church so who knows, but they do a good bit of social work for the local, national, and even international community.
 
have they had some detrimental effects, of course. Have they done a lot of good things as well, of course. That is COMPLETELY besides the point though. His argument was that without religion the world would be one big happy family (bullshit)
 
Just strip them of their 501(c)(3) status. Then they can start paying property tax and everything else they are exempt from. I don't think all churches should be taxed, but far too many are breaching into the political realm. Once that happens, hammer down.
 
I can agree with you that he was wrong in the way he put his argument, but the evidence stands. The bad far far far far far out weighs the good. If organized religion never existed we would be at least a thousands years ahead in technology. The dark ages occurred all due to religion. There is hardly any good that has ever come from religion other than the little bit of money they donate which goes absolutely no where in the full aspect of things.
 
a little bit of money they donate? Its not a little bit of money. But either way, I'd personally argue that the religion is not the problem, but people exploit it for personal good. For example, I would argue that the crusades were less about spreading christianity and more about kings being greedy, something that would have occurred anyways. They used this shroud of "We're spreading christianity!" as a way to warrant killing and becoming rich. Now I would agree that in the past certain churches (mainly the catholic) have slowed technological advancements, but I also feel like today that is not the case at all (again besides the catholic church). I am pretty "religious" if you couldnt tell, but at the same time I work with stem cells. I just think that in a lot of scenarios it is less about the religion and more about people simply wanting to get their way, and using their religion as an excuse.
 
I think that any church or religious organization that does any lobbying or donates to any political campaigns, super pacs, etc. should be taxed. If you can donate to a political campaign then you damn well can pay taxes without it effecting your charity work. The other thing that annoys the shit out of me is the loop hole that I recently noticed with apartment complexes using church's to send advertisements through the mail without paying for postage.
 
Why not just stop giving hand outs there's your trillion dollars+. You guy forget without Christianity this country would not exist. The cathlic church for example only has 4 billion in its central bank which would not nearly cover the costs of taxation in the us. The church would have to sell a lot of there properties to survive the first year alone
 
The laws are Judeo Christian. Most of the founders had Judeo Christian back grounds. Manefest destiny's bases was that it is gods will that we conquer north America. Helped civilize control and assimilate the natives
 
This is a great post (I'm being serious, this isn't sarcasm). Very true about people exploiting religion. This is a lot better than your first post in this thread (sorry to sound like an asshole) but I think that most world problems/events are revolving around religion right now (have you seen the news lately? Gaza Strip?)

I'd say that you're right about people exploiting religion for personal good, but I'd also say that religion has been the cause of the majority of problems for humans. I think religion has given greedy people a means to exploit others, and I really do think we would have been much better off in our history without religion. But to each his own, I respect that you are religious and even more that you are aware of yourself and what religion has done to others.

 
quoting for lols

Isn't allowing the church to be tax-exempt a hand out?

What does the founding of this country have to do with how affairs are conducted now? Most of the founders were deists anyways, and saying that churches shouldn't be taxed because this country wouldn't exist without christianity is one of the more absurd comments you've made, which is something coming from you

 
dude, people settled america so they would be able to practice there religion freely and avoid persecution for that.
 
and if we step out of the 1600s for a moment, we realize that they can still do so...but should be forced to pay the government like literally everyone else.
 
I get that, I agree that that is correct.

I don't believe that relating that to present events is sound logic in any possible way. Early American religions are in no way similar to present day religions, early American government is in no way similar to present day US government, and early day America in general is in no way similar to present day America. So saying that because this country wouldn't exist without religion is a reason not to tax churches is very illogical. Many churches are now huge corporations-like someone above me said, how can churches give money to politics and not be taxed? Our present day churches are vastly different than the religions people practiced in the 1600s.
 
1. Tax exemption is not a hand out it is part of the tax code. Which is like me saying the government gives me a hand out because it allows me to keep 70% of my money. 2. The founding of this country dictates the affairs conducted now for the most part lawfully. 3 As a direct mayflower decendent who settled this country to escape religious persecutions, I'm saying we should not be persecuted in this country whether it be from harm or taxation
 
haha, i was proving roors point about america being founded, (or the beginning of america) having a lot to do with religion. and no they should not be forced,you obviously have no clue what alot of churches do. my church has alot of people that they have to pay and they take it in donations through the people that like the church and want to stay there. they also donate almost all of the money to starving children in africa and they help other people throughout the world and within MInneapolis etc.

now another question, should we tax organizations like Mary Joe Coeplin charities? because they happen to be a catholic organization and they have mass 3 or 4 times a day, because by definition they are a church. thats i just one example, what about churches that do homeless feeding every weekend and night time? is it because they look like a church that makes it okay to tax them? or is just because you dislike, disagree and disregard everything that religious organizations do for a community?

 
why because quakers don't have witch hunts anymore? yes i agree things have changed like catholic teachings, especially social teachings.but no, the basis of christianity is pretty much the same.
 
tell me does your pastor have a 2nd job, or does he take a salary through you because when i was a kid and i was forced to go to church he had a house right behind the church no job and 2 kids. how big is the church it prob cost over 200,000$ to make and it was most likely renovated in the last 20 years.
 
our pastor lives near the church, church housing through donations, and yes it was renovated through donations within our church community, pretty fucking nice place too. and either way we like our pastor and we are fine with the amount of money he makes because he is a chill guy with great speeches during church service.
 
Wayy too much in the op to read about this situation.

I don't care about churches and taxing them wouldn't make us win the space race. Also hell, might as well just legalize drugs and put that money into it.
 
I don't know anyone who goes into priesthood for the benifits or the pay as you suggest . If it were a free ride like unemployment and disability everyone would be doing it
 
The separation of church and state is one of this countries founding principles. I think if you are going to assert that the church can't have a say in public institutions ie schools, then you can't turn around and say that government can have a say in church affairs ie taxes. But it is blatantly obvious that many "churches" are basically political fundraising organizations for the right wing. If you are telling people how to vote, if you are putting tax free cash in your personal accounts hand over fist, then you are not a God damned church and you deserve to pay taxes like everyone else.
 
Right, you got me on my word usage. So lets stop giving welfare to everyone in America and continue to not tax churches that make billions in revenue. Is that what a truly spiritual person would advocate, or a capitalist pig?The founders also said that our current two-term president was 3/5 of a person. Things are vastly different than they were when this country was founded.

How is taxation on a profitable business persecution? Why in god's name (get it?) would a church need to make a profit and be able to give money to politics without being taxed? That is absurd.

Your next post:

Since you are picking apart the wording of my posts I will do so for yours too. Churches were not more wealthy in the 1600s than they are now. We now live in a completely globalized world, and churches are as globalized as everything else. This was not the case 400 years ago. If you want to continue to reply to my posts, you would sound a lot better than to use vague one-sentence responses.
 
buddy if we do tax churches, your not gonna see much of any cash unless they cut some stuff that they are using the money for now.

for that matter should we also tax jewish temples, or buddhist temples, or any religious places of worship within america?
 
1 churches don't make billions the catholic church has less than 4 billion in its bank in fact the Boston arch diosy had to sell a lot of churches to survive in the last couple of years. "3/5If your going to pick apart my post I said for the most part lawfully and that was an amendment later on. 3 the church need money for politics to fight having to supply birth control to their employees which is against everything the church teaches. The church was way more wealthy for indulgences in the 1600 again I suggest you read some books
 
3 the church need money for politics to fight having to supply birth control to their employees which is against everything the church teaches.

You are complete fucking moron. If the church is spending its money on a political agenda THEN IT SHOULD BE PAYING FUCKING TAXES YOU IDIOT. What the fuck am I even reading this is the entire argument for why churches should pay taxes holy fuck I need a drink this is so god damned retarded I can't believe you even said that.
 
the difference here is this:

catholics/muslims/jews/whatever should have no say over what the others do via govt means. IE catholics should not be capable of interfering with government to make a law that persecutes another religion or benefits exclusively themselves. That's separation of church/state.

And as a result of that, the government is not run by or (in theory) influenced by any single religion. Therefore it oversees them all equally. It's not as if they are interfering in what the church preaches. They all, regardless of religion, would have to pay the same taxes.

I'm not saying they should be paying super high taxes, but something should go back.

And don't give some bullshit about charity work. The fact is that the church does charity work via missionaries, an idea that proved to be a failure 300 years ago.
 
its funny because a lot of denominations of christianity teach that one should be active in politics. and if they do donate money for political campaigns it does (at least i think it does) get writtien of as charity, either way its just an endorsement of one candidate or the other.
 
yes, that is exactly what I'm saying. $71,000,000,000 is the number they are projecting, and you will see all of that money because they would legally have to pay it. I have no idea where you are getting this notion that churches are broke and have no money.
 
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