PROTECT OUR CULTURE!
- Thread starter BradGeiger
- Start date
Rogge
Active member
This idea of core is silly. It's in the eye of the beholder. Hammer and Radio Ron are more core than all of you because they stuck to their roots and kept skiing bumps after everyone moved to twin tips. SEE! HA! None of you are "core" now. Do it up one time...
PROTECT OUR CULTURE... please! Quit being so divisive. Brad, you run an indoor ski center that allows kids to enjoy skiing in Utah year round. That's incredible.
Under Armour puts Jen Hudak and Dash Longe in Super Bowl ads. They also sponsor Level 1, a company that I assume many of you would associate with the word "core." Those are awesome endeavors in a different way. Salomon, CoreUPT, and Scott just had three athletes (Dumont, TJ, and Wallisch) on an MTV2 television show. Wallisch is sponsored by Coast Body Wash. Dumont is sponsored by Target. TJ has Paul Mitchell. What do any of these companies have to do with skiing? Many of you will say, "nothing." You're wrong.
Do you know what all of these companies have in common? They're paying athletes to continue to live their dreams, travel around the world, film segments, and be the real representatives of skiing. One of the reasons these large companies throw money at athletes is because they want to be associated with the athlete and the sport and I'm ok with that so long as they're properly supporting said athlete.
PROTECT OUR CULTURE by supporting brands that support the athletes, the people that love skiing so much they dedicated their entire (and I mean ENTIRE) lives to it.
Really, core? Grow up, you dorks and quit trying to "fight the system."
PROTECT OUR CULTURE... please! Quit being so divisive. Brad, you run an indoor ski center that allows kids to enjoy skiing in Utah year round. That's incredible.
Under Armour puts Jen Hudak and Dash Longe in Super Bowl ads. They also sponsor Level 1, a company that I assume many of you would associate with the word "core." Those are awesome endeavors in a different way. Salomon, CoreUPT, and Scott just had three athletes (Dumont, TJ, and Wallisch) on an MTV2 television show. Wallisch is sponsored by Coast Body Wash. Dumont is sponsored by Target. TJ has Paul Mitchell. What do any of these companies have to do with skiing? Many of you will say, "nothing." You're wrong.
Do you know what all of these companies have in common? They're paying athletes to continue to live their dreams, travel around the world, film segments, and be the real representatives of skiing. One of the reasons these large companies throw money at athletes is because they want to be associated with the athlete and the sport and I'm ok with that so long as they're properly supporting said athlete.
PROTECT OUR CULTURE by supporting brands that support the athletes, the people that love skiing so much they dedicated their entire (and I mean ENTIRE) lives to it.
Really, core? Grow up, you dorks and quit trying to "fight the system."
EMK
Active member
Hey dude, like the other guys have said we all do what we can, In case you didn't notice I refuse to wear the biggest clothes available and so I wear holden, as for the gogs and the jacket they were merely a matter of what i could afford, buy in a local shop and what fitted well. Now I said I was sorry for calling your company out unfairly and even if I did that is no reason for a personal attack like that especially after i admitted i was wrong.
.jr
Active member
You cant hate on him for wearing Holden, not until a "core" skiing brand decides to stop being ghetto as fuck and make clothes similar to Holden. Dont get me wrong, I like saga and jibberish and all that, but no skiing brand makes smaller ski outerwear, so its not like he had another option with out changing style.
Most of my shit is Analog or Sessions, and I even have a pair of Holdens. I typically buy what is cheap, so even if it is snowboarding shit, its not like they are making any money off me.
Most of my shit is Analog or Sessions, and I even have a pair of Holdens. I typically buy what is cheap, so even if it is snowboarding shit, its not like they are making any money off me.
Steakhead
Member
Rogges post says it all man, The Core thing is pretty funny but if your going to be this serious in talking about freeski culture and supporting it, you should to, not trying to blatently disrespect you, all of us are just trying to slide around and have fun with sticks on our feet, BUT when your gonna call out companies and people for not showing support, you better be doing your part..
"If we want to protect the future of our culture it is companies owned
and ran by people passionate about this cause we need to support."
Don't take it soo personal
"If we want to protect the future of our culture it is companies owned
and ran by people passionate about this cause we need to support."
Don't take it soo personal
BradGeiger
Member
I could not be more stoked on the discussion and debates. Most of them have some Validity.
The Fact is most ski and snowboard companies are very fragile, and more and more local skis shops are going out of business. Here are a list of the reasons why.
The purpose of my thread was to discuss the rapid loss of local shops. Why rollerblading has fallen apart is because it never indentified itself as a culture. If rollerblading would have had a large collecton of specialty shops like skatboarding does, they could have protected themselves better. I dont want to see our NS culture learn the same lesson.
We need a large collection of healthy local shops. They are what protect and strenghten our culture.
My intention was not to make my thread about any particular brand, but because the brands are the ones who are guilty for causing most of the problem, is suppose its unaviodable.
Here is a list of the top 5 causes for the current collapes of the local shop base.
1. Direct sales on the internet are chocking out retail shops.
2 Big Chain Sporting Good Stores like Sports Authority and Dicks are creating a wallmart situation.
3. Brands who do direct sales
4. Brands who support the Big Chain Sporting Good Stores Wallmart strategy.
*5. We as a customer base do not do a good enough job of supporting brands who support local shops and punish brands who hurt local shops with the 4 reasons listed above.
With a little effort we as a customer base and culture have the power. If we work together, we have the power to change the negative policies brands impliment that are killing local shops. I know that we need to do all we can these days to save money, but just a little effort will make the difference. Maybe, buy your skis and bindings online, but go to you local shop for your boots.
We need to make an effort to fix the problem, and we can do it if we make our buying decisions a bit more carefully from now on.
Whithout a large collection of local specialty ski and snowboard shops, we will weaken our market and are open to the same fate as rollerblading.
None of us want to see that happen.
Loving the passion and the debate regarding this issue. It shows the we have the passion necessary to fix the problem.
The Fact is most ski and snowboard companies are very fragile, and more and more local skis shops are going out of business. Here are a list of the reasons why.
The purpose of my thread was to discuss the rapid loss of local shops. Why rollerblading has fallen apart is because it never indentified itself as a culture. If rollerblading would have had a large collecton of specialty shops like skatboarding does, they could have protected themselves better. I dont want to see our NS culture learn the same lesson.
We need a large collection of healthy local shops. They are what protect and strenghten our culture.
My intention was not to make my thread about any particular brand, but because the brands are the ones who are guilty for causing most of the problem, is suppose its unaviodable.
Here is a list of the top 5 causes for the current collapes of the local shop base.
1. Direct sales on the internet are chocking out retail shops.
2 Big Chain Sporting Good Stores like Sports Authority and Dicks are creating a wallmart situation.
3. Brands who do direct sales
4. Brands who support the Big Chain Sporting Good Stores Wallmart strategy.
*5. We as a customer base do not do a good enough job of supporting brands who support local shops and punish brands who hurt local shops with the 4 reasons listed above.
With a little effort we as a customer base and culture have the power. If we work together, we have the power to change the negative policies brands impliment that are killing local shops. I know that we need to do all we can these days to save money, but just a little effort will make the difference. Maybe, buy your skis and bindings online, but go to you local shop for your boots.
We need to make an effort to fix the problem, and we can do it if we make our buying decisions a bit more carefully from now on.
Whithout a large collection of local specialty ski and snowboard shops, we will weaken our market and are open to the same fate as rollerblading.
None of us want to see that happen.
Loving the passion and the debate regarding this issue. It shows the we have the passion necessary to fix the problem.
Fish_Sandwich.
Active member
So I should go out and buy Paul Mitchel shampoo, because it will support some athlete I've never met in my life.
Think about it:
If I buy Paul Mitchel the money goes back to them, I receive no benefits of my purchase other than the original shampoo
If I buy some huge brand's skis my money goes to the skis I purchase, a bunch of other shit, and a bunch of advertising.
If I buy Moments money goes to the skis I bought, and not too much goes to advertising, compared to a company like Rossi. Rossi might spend more for comps and put money into the industry, but not much of that really effects me. I'm not going to pay for Rossi to advertise to another demographic (that I DO not identify with at all) while buying a pair of their skis.
So I guess the companies I think are core, are:
Small (market to niches, ie. NS, big mtn. riders, Backcountry riders)
By skiers for skiers
Benefit me more than other companies would.
They don't need much advertising because they are marketing to a niche market that doesn't need to be advertised too.
Don't make a shit ton of other products (Especially if the products aren't something I'd use)
Don't make products that are just extremely different than ski stuff
I feel like if a company is cool enough to market to a niche like the ones listed above, they will produce better gear than a company who makes everything from shoes to snowshoes to skis and bindings at every store they possible can. It's a choice a company has to make, marketing to these niches is far less profitable than say marketing like Solly (tons of diff products), if a company knowingly sacrifices profits to market to a niche, it is obvious they will be more in tune with that niche. And I can respect that very much. Saga is a prime example.
Think about it:
If I buy Paul Mitchel the money goes back to them, I receive no benefits of my purchase other than the original shampoo
If I buy some huge brand's skis my money goes to the skis I purchase, a bunch of other shit, and a bunch of advertising.
If I buy Moments money goes to the skis I bought, and not too much goes to advertising, compared to a company like Rossi. Rossi might spend more for comps and put money into the industry, but not much of that really effects me. I'm not going to pay for Rossi to advertise to another demographic (that I DO not identify with at all) while buying a pair of their skis.
So I guess the companies I think are core, are:
Small (market to niches, ie. NS, big mtn. riders, Backcountry riders)
By skiers for skiers
Benefit me more than other companies would.
They don't need much advertising because they are marketing to a niche market that doesn't need to be advertised too.
Don't make a shit ton of other products (Especially if the products aren't something I'd use)
Don't make products that are just extremely different than ski stuff
I feel like if a company is cool enough to market to a niche like the ones listed above, they will produce better gear than a company who makes everything from shoes to snowshoes to skis and bindings at every store they possible can. It's a choice a company has to make, marketing to these niches is far less profitable than say marketing like Solly (tons of diff products), if a company knowingly sacrifices profits to market to a niche, it is obvious they will be more in tune with that niche. And I can respect that very much. Saga is a prime example.
EMK
Active member
I never called out any company at any point for not showing support only I suggest that we should not place our trust in some that many believe to be capable of no harm. I do not belive that these companies make an inferior product or do not do a lot for our sport right now. I do believe they would jump out of our industry as quickly as the got involved and if we invest too much in them they will leave us in the shit.
And well done you had already made me begin to feel ashamed that i had supported Burton owned companies. Congratulations on using my own voice to continue that further.
Had you not directly and needlessly called me out i would have no reason to take it personaly.
And well done you had already made me begin to feel ashamed that i had supported Burton owned companies. Congratulations on using my own voice to continue that further.
Had you not directly and needlessly called me out i would have no reason to take it personaly.
BradGeiger
Member
Rogge,
By todays standards you are absolutely correct.
"CORE" used to be a statement of sincerity not size. If a companies investment in our culture is real and sincere. They are "CORE".
By "sincere" I mean that they have a long-term investment in our culture. Not just feeding off it and leaving the moment their revenue drops.
"CORE" is a non existent term now.
That is the point of my thread.
We can make "CORE" a legitimate statement again if we try.
By todays standards you are absolutely correct.
"CORE" used to be a statement of sincerity not size. If a companies investment in our culture is real and sincere. They are "CORE".
By "sincere" I mean that they have a long-term investment in our culture. Not just feeding off it and leaving the moment their revenue drops.
"CORE" is a non existent term now.
That is the point of my thread.
We can make "CORE" a legitimate statement again if we try.
Rogge
Active member
Burlington's local shop, The Ski Rack, sells small, medium, and large brands. They know their market and their buyers purchase what the consumer want. They also offer incredible customer service (which is why the best skiers in the world go to Burlington to get their boots fitted).
I'm not one for seeing the little man go out of business but capitalism is the survival of the fittest. Walmart has been around for generations and it killed a lot of local businesses. I'm not denying that. However, service and goods have improved in many areas that have Walmart because it's simply a better buying experience when you go to the smaller, mom and pop shops. Again, the choice is with the consumer.
Take a brand like Newschoolers. There's plenty of magazines and websites that have gone out of business during the 10 years NS has been in business. Why is NS still around? Because Doug and the gang know their audience and constantly deliver the content and services their consumers desire. Plain and simple.
Big, medium, or brand-spanking new from the garage, they all need to deliver products their consumers want because now, more than ever, we live in a consumer driven economy.
I don't believe we need a "large collection of healthy local shops." Skiing needs people like you that see a need and fulfill it with smart and creative businesses. Do you think we need a shit ton of indoor ski centers? I don't.
If retail shops or any company for that matter, fail to see the changing global economy and the economy of the internet, then they've written their own demise. There's very few places in North America that are capable of sustaining a purely "walk-through" business anymore. Vermont being one of them but even here we see companies doing more online sales than walk-through.
The problem is the little man taking on the big man and the big man taking on the little man. All the effort spent fighting the powers that be is, in my humble opinion, wasted energy that could be used answering the question, "Why is no one purchasing my product?" You can point fingers all day long at various large companies, political figures, parents, NS members, etc but really the only solution is to move forward with a good business model, smart and effective marketing, and great quality products.
The power is with the consumers and I think choosing your products is a decision that is yours entirely. Use it wisely.
I'm not one for seeing the little man go out of business but capitalism is the survival of the fittest. Walmart has been around for generations and it killed a lot of local businesses. I'm not denying that. However, service and goods have improved in many areas that have Walmart because it's simply a better buying experience when you go to the smaller, mom and pop shops. Again, the choice is with the consumer.
Take a brand like Newschoolers. There's plenty of magazines and websites that have gone out of business during the 10 years NS has been in business. Why is NS still around? Because Doug and the gang know their audience and constantly deliver the content and services their consumers desire. Plain and simple.
Big, medium, or brand-spanking new from the garage, they all need to deliver products their consumers want because now, more than ever, we live in a consumer driven economy.
I don't believe we need a "large collection of healthy local shops." Skiing needs people like you that see a need and fulfill it with smart and creative businesses. Do you think we need a shit ton of indoor ski centers? I don't.
If retail shops or any company for that matter, fail to see the changing global economy and the economy of the internet, then they've written their own demise. There's very few places in North America that are capable of sustaining a purely "walk-through" business anymore. Vermont being one of them but even here we see companies doing more online sales than walk-through.
The problem is the little man taking on the big man and the big man taking on the little man. All the effort spent fighting the powers that be is, in my humble opinion, wasted energy that could be used answering the question, "Why is no one purchasing my product?" You can point fingers all day long at various large companies, political figures, parents, NS members, etc but really the only solution is to move forward with a good business model, smart and effective marketing, and great quality products.
The power is with the consumers and I think choosing your products is a decision that is yours entirely. Use it wisely.
ScottHibbert
Member
Brad, to better understand you opinion, it seems like you are talking more about the battle between the local shop vs big box like dicks.
I was just at my fall sales meeting for 2010/11 product and one of the problems the reps are having is getting their product placed in these local shops. The shops don't give them the time of day. I would prefer to see UA outerwear that the athletes wear and help design exclusively in these local shops and the jacket my dad would wear would be where he shops which is more than likely the big box stores. I feel more comfortable shopping in the local independent stores, he feels more comfortable in the big box. 2 different product lines for 2 different demographics. But profits from both go back into freeskiing, not skiing as a whole.
There has been talk about how the smaller companies are more in touch with the community, but I feel like I am just as in touch with the community since I've been in it for 10 years and have athletes giving input on product for the up coming years. I'm not saying all big companies are in touch, but before people assume the big companies are not in touch, take a look at who works there.
I was just at my fall sales meeting for 2010/11 product and one of the problems the reps are having is getting their product placed in these local shops. The shops don't give them the time of day. I would prefer to see UA outerwear that the athletes wear and help design exclusively in these local shops and the jacket my dad would wear would be where he shops which is more than likely the big box stores. I feel more comfortable shopping in the local independent stores, he feels more comfortable in the big box. 2 different product lines for 2 different demographics. But profits from both go back into freeskiing, not skiing as a whole.
There has been talk about how the smaller companies are more in touch with the community, but I feel like I am just as in touch with the community since I've been in it for 10 years and have athletes giving input on product for the up coming years. I'm not saying all big companies are in touch, but before people assume the big companies are not in touch, take a look at who works there.
BradGeiger
Member
I agree with you on almost all of your points.
I just disagree about our need for local shops.
Skiing and Snowboarding are a culture and a lifestyle that is based on the common purpose of progressing. Due to this deep and collective passion, it is vital that we have local specialty shops to fuel this progressive spirit.
It important for a kid to walk out of a local shop after buying his gear and feel a sense of pride and belonging to something special. The internet and large Sporting Good chain stores dont generate this emotion.
I will never forget the first time I walked out of my first local surf shop with my board and gear. I felt like I had just been baptized and reborn. If I had bought my board and gear off the internet or from a large sporting goods chain store, I would not have the same pride in being a surfer.
Generating this emotion to skiers and snowboarder is so important. It is this strong sense of belonging and pride that makes our culture as strong as it is.
If we remove local shops from our culture, in time it will heavily dilute the passion that exists today.
We need this passion and pride for long term strength and stability as a culture.
I just disagree about our need for local shops.
Skiing and Snowboarding are a culture and a lifestyle that is based on the common purpose of progressing. Due to this deep and collective passion, it is vital that we have local specialty shops to fuel this progressive spirit.
It important for a kid to walk out of a local shop after buying his gear and feel a sense of pride and belonging to something special. The internet and large Sporting Good chain stores dont generate this emotion.
I will never forget the first time I walked out of my first local surf shop with my board and gear. I felt like I had just been baptized and reborn. If I had bought my board and gear off the internet or from a large sporting goods chain store, I would not have the same pride in being a surfer.
Generating this emotion to skiers and snowboarder is so important. It is this strong sense of belonging and pride that makes our culture as strong as it is.
If we remove local shops from our culture, in time it will heavily dilute the passion that exists today.
We need this passion and pride for long term strength and stability as a culture.
WME was 'core' once.
WME, Monster Energy and Scott all play the same games. Talking 'core' and history doesn't count for much.
The way to support skiing is to spend a shit ton of money on it, the end. Most of us are just trying to milk the NY tourist dollars that fuel the industry... far more than our niche. Freeskiing is a marketing tool... like the X-Games and Dew Tour... advertising venues. Supporting 'local' business is always a good idea though. I agree that supporting small and local business helps keep individuality in the culture alive though.
Skiing is a self-destructive industry anyway. The culture is fighting its primary support ( though the source of that support is changing slightly). The sport itself relies on travel, resource intensive resorts, cats... basically a whole bunch of stuff that will negatively impact future snowfall. The sport as we know it doesn't stand much of a chance of lasting more than another 50 years to begin with. The money, resources and more importantly environmental conditions just aren't going to support it anymore. It's another reason to buy small, but if you're trying to keep freeskiing as it is... well, just shell out to whoever's going big.
WME, Monster Energy and Scott all play the same games. Talking 'core' and history doesn't count for much.
The way to support skiing is to spend a shit ton of money on it, the end. Most of us are just trying to milk the NY tourist dollars that fuel the industry... far more than our niche. Freeskiing is a marketing tool... like the X-Games and Dew Tour... advertising venues. Supporting 'local' business is always a good idea though. I agree that supporting small and local business helps keep individuality in the culture alive though.
Skiing is a self-destructive industry anyway. The culture is fighting its primary support ( though the source of that support is changing slightly). The sport itself relies on travel, resource intensive resorts, cats... basically a whole bunch of stuff that will negatively impact future snowfall. The sport as we know it doesn't stand much of a chance of lasting more than another 50 years to begin with. The money, resources and more importantly environmental conditions just aren't going to support it anymore. It's another reason to buy small, but if you're trying to keep freeskiing as it is... well, just shell out to whoever's going big.
Stauble
Member
This may be a slight stray from the original post but I think the conversation has broadened/
The industry is growing. I think the feeling of being core is just a feeling of being special, unique, doing something no one else is doing, not being associated with any brands or company’s, its “core” because its all based around you, you friends and whatever you make it. Skiing is growing and is just moving away from that. You can still do anything you want and have just as much fun but you are one of 100 twin tippers on the hill instead of one of 10. With that, it does seem more “commercialized” and maybe less “special” BUT now there are 100 features on the hill instead of 10. More companies to buy sick gear from. More companies sponsoring kids so they can set the goal of trying to get better and go pro. More people care about the edit you made and posted online, you can go to college and find a whole group of kids that wanna drive a few hours on the weekends and go shred powder with you. More MOVIES. More publications. More and better ski trips! More free stuff. More opportunity to ski! The list really goes on.
There are obviously many “genres” of industry. I classify skiing as the “recreation” genre. For the vast majority, it is a hobby and is just for fun. That vast majority is what the industry is based around, it’s who the industry “serves.” I don’t know if I’m right but I think that the more people doing what we are doing the better. It probably wont feel as “core” but the benefits out weigh the detriments.
The industry is growing. I think the feeling of being core is just a feeling of being special, unique, doing something no one else is doing, not being associated with any brands or company’s, its “core” because its all based around you, you friends and whatever you make it. Skiing is growing and is just moving away from that. You can still do anything you want and have just as much fun but you are one of 100 twin tippers on the hill instead of one of 10. With that, it does seem more “commercialized” and maybe less “special” BUT now there are 100 features on the hill instead of 10. More companies to buy sick gear from. More companies sponsoring kids so they can set the goal of trying to get better and go pro. More people care about the edit you made and posted online, you can go to college and find a whole group of kids that wanna drive a few hours on the weekends and go shred powder with you. More MOVIES. More publications. More and better ski trips! More free stuff. More opportunity to ski! The list really goes on.
There are obviously many “genres” of industry. I classify skiing as the “recreation” genre. For the vast majority, it is a hobby and is just for fun. That vast majority is what the industry is based around, it’s who the industry “serves.” I don’t know if I’m right but I think that the more people doing what we are doing the better. It probably wont feel as “core” but the benefits out weigh the detriments.
Twinjibber77
Active member
Why? Do you know who they sponsor?
I'm not talking just riders but films, the bonus shirt that came with refresh? Tell me that wasn't supporting the industry and a really cool perk to buying the film.
I'm not talking just riders but films, the bonus shirt that came with refresh? Tell me that wasn't supporting the industry and a really cool perk to buying the film.
crazy_karl
Member
Cheers!
Fish_Sandwich.
Active member
More people = bad in my eyes. I know, it doesn't seem progressive, and it's not really.
I have no problem paying current prices for lift tickets/passes. I'd even pay more if there were less people, especially gapers on pow days. I don't need some big name brand pouring in money to ski an epic pow day. They are the same, have been for years. So I'm always supporting the small underground brands, plus they make way more unique stuff, and I just strongly dislike the mainstream.
Now if I put on my business shoes my perspective is very altered, so I understand why the big companies do what they do, if I was in their position I'd probably do the same thing.
To the UA guy: How is UA's ski department sectioned off or connected from/to the rest of the company, what's the structure like? Is it like UA ----> each individual sport or are sports grouped together? I so what is the ski category linked with, is it part of a broader "snow" category or how does this all work?
Just PM me if you get a chance, Some of my assumptions may be just off base and I'm curious.
I have no problem paying current prices for lift tickets/passes. I'd even pay more if there were less people, especially gapers on pow days. I don't need some big name brand pouring in money to ski an epic pow day. They are the same, have been for years. So I'm always supporting the small underground brands, plus they make way more unique stuff, and I just strongly dislike the mainstream.
Now if I put on my business shoes my perspective is very altered, so I understand why the big companies do what they do, if I was in their position I'd probably do the same thing.
To the UA guy: How is UA's ski department sectioned off or connected from/to the rest of the company, what's the structure like? Is it like UA ----> each individual sport or are sports grouped together? I so what is the ski category linked with, is it part of a broader "snow" category or how does this all work?
Just PM me if you get a chance, Some of my assumptions may be just off base and I'm curious.
Fish_Sandwich.
Active member
Wait you got an UA shirt with Refresh????
Was it one of the moisture wicking ones? Or just a tee?
I've never heard anything about this.
Was it one of the moisture wicking ones? Or just a tee?
I've never heard anything about this.
ScottHibbert
Member
here's a link to Berman's post on level1productions.com http://www.level1productions.com/news.php?id=243&y=2009&m=10It is called the TNP shirt. It is insane how well it wicks sweat and stays dry. Ask anyone who got one with their Refresh DVD if they have used it while being active. It retails at $30.
Fish_Sandwich.
Active member
Pretty bad ass, I have to admit.
BradGeiger
Member
Small independent film crews VS. Warren Miller = Local shops VS. Sports Authority
The fact is the Warren Miller companies of our industry (Dicks, Sports Authority) are choking out our Clown Schools, 4bi9s, and Traveling Circuses (independent local shops). Both can be argued as bigger contributers to our culture.
The smaller brands and local shops offer us the grass roots passion much like the smaller film crews
The bigger chains stores and brands offer us the big money much like the Warren Miller
So the question is which do you think is more important to our culture.
A large collection of small passionate brands local shops and film crews or A few big brands, chain stores and film companies that throw a bunch of money around.
One is killing the other, so we have to choose one.
I choose the grass roots passion and sincerity of the local shops.
ScottHibbert
Member
I can see how depending on your opinion of where you want freeskiing in the future makes a big difference on what brands you support. Since you see more people skiing as bad, I completely understand why you don't like mainstream companies entering skiing. If all you want to do is ski for fun on the weekends after your 9-5 during the week then that is great and more people coming in to skiing does suck as the lift lines on the weekends are already too long. I think more people in freeskiing to be a good thing to grow the sport and help more and more kids do what the love for a living. It's way more fun than a 9-5 in a cubicle.
The ski department is under the "outdoor" division. The outdoor division is in its own building that is attached by doors and hallways to the rest of the company. Outdoor includes ski, snowboard, hunt, fish and tactical. Skiing and snowboarding are grouped together under the title "mountain" because its still very new and the outerwear is only in its 3rd season this fall and winter. We have product and graphic designers specific to ski and snowboard. I live in Colorado and ski almost every day once the season gets started to practice for comps and to make sure I am in touch with the sport. If you have any more questions feel free to ask them here or PM me.
The ski department is under the "outdoor" division. The outdoor division is in its own building that is attached by doors and hallways to the rest of the company. Outdoor includes ski, snowboard, hunt, fish and tactical. Skiing and snowboarding are grouped together under the title "mountain" because its still very new and the outerwear is only in its 3rd season this fall and winter. We have product and graphic designers specific to ski and snowboard. I live in Colorado and ski almost every day once the season gets started to practice for comps and to make sure I am in touch with the sport. If you have any more questions feel free to ask them here or PM me.
Twinjibber77
Active member
It's a Heat Gear T, and it is really sick.
Twinjibber77
Active member
If you can't find a ski clothing company that isn't core then you need to use the searchbar my friend, but i wouldn't hate on someone for buying Holden when that was their style and a good price for them. Analog is sadly in a conglomerate of gayness but i really like their stuff no matter how core they are, sessions, sponsors T-Rains and the late and great Shane McConkey. nuff said.
To the Anon's comment above, haha. I totally agree, i would not support Anon if they were the last goggle company on earth, they have some sick products but i still wouldn't. Maybe if they said sorry at least i would consider it. They officially pulled a dick move on skiing and i hold it against them. Lameeeeee
To the Anon's comment above, haha. I totally agree, i would not support Anon if they were the last goggle company on earth, they have some sick products but i still wouldn't. Maybe if they said sorry at least i would consider it. They officially pulled a dick move on skiing and i hold it against them. Lameeeeee
ScottHibbert
Member
T- Rains(Tanner Rainville for anyone who doesn't know) is actually sponsored by Under Armour. He has been on the program since Fall 2008. We are working on updating our website so it has a complete profile on all of our athletes.
Fish_Sandwich.
Active member
Ya, I just like less people, I know it's somewhat selfish, so be it. I'm not a weekend warrior though. I'm a sophmore in college and I just can't get up as much as I'd like. I might get in 40 days this year which will be great, I have an epic pass in CO so I'll be out there a bunch, plus Baker is 2 hrs. away so I'm pretty stoked for this season. Where do you ski at? Summit? or elsewhere in CO?
Twinjibber77
Active member
Wow, thanks. That was my B. I was talking about Andy Mahre.
T-Rains is another reason Under Armour has been totally legit in my eyes. They have a team that wouldn't be there if they weren't giving back to the sport, cause in my eyes they totally are.
T-Rains is another reason Under Armour has been totally legit in my eyes. They have a team that wouldn't be there if they weren't giving back to the sport, cause in my eyes they totally are.
Steakhead
Member
Nobody who goes to a Warren Miller show has any clue who clown school, 4Bi9, TC etc are....The demographic is 30 - 80 year olds. 4bi9, clown school etc are catering to the generation that is at hand now. 12 - 24 year olds who ski park. Granted I am 29 and love what TC, 4bi9 and Clown schools are doing but the fact is people who are going to see Warren Miller movies are buying their $300 set up(skis, poles, boots, bindings) at Sniagrab(The Sports Authortity) every 4 years where your TC , 4bi9, Clown School, etc are either buying their gear on this website in the BST forum or buying from local shops who sell moment, On3p, etc....You quoted Jibij earlier so hell i will throw SCOTT in there too, thing is with Jibij yes, Josh ruled, his shop ruled, but I am willing to bet 75% of his sales were Internet based, not locally.
That Warren Miller crowd that buys the $300 full set up from Sports authority, dicks, etc is buying more skis/outerwear/etc in a weekend than the small brands sell all year. These sales are 100% independent from the sales at the local shop. A 40 year old weekend warrior is buying non twin tips and stuff that is not sold at the core local shop.
Look at chairlift stats, soo say Vail has 1,000,000 visitors a year, how many of them are going to be on twin tips shredding the park? Maybe 75,000 if we are lucky...
We are talking about 2 completely different buyers and 2 completely different skis here, twin tip versus non twin tip, baggy clothes versus non baggy clothes, etc you get the point.
You cant compare WME vs 4bi9, same as you cant compare Dicks, or Backcountry.com to Jibij(RIP) it does not validate your argument at all. This website is awesome and supports our niche (or core if you want to call it, sorry rogge) part of the market, however without companies/shops of all shapes and sizes the Ski Industry will not exist at all.
So on that note the best post in here yet was from Tyler, so who can give some valid answers to the following...
Lets rather talk about the following questions that need to be
anwsered or at least considered. If we all start thinking the same way
we will be a stronger culture, more united and will last the test of
time.
#1 How do we keep the skiing community strong and united?
#2 How can we also help the small guy which is important for growth?
#3 How can we make make our sport become more mainstream?
#4 How can we make our sport easy for family's get out and ski, grow and evolve ?
#5 How do we evolve as a sport and what is next?
That Warren Miller crowd that buys the $300 full set up from Sports authority, dicks, etc is buying more skis/outerwear/etc in a weekend than the small brands sell all year. These sales are 100% independent from the sales at the local shop. A 40 year old weekend warrior is buying non twin tips and stuff that is not sold at the core local shop.
Look at chairlift stats, soo say Vail has 1,000,000 visitors a year, how many of them are going to be on twin tips shredding the park? Maybe 75,000 if we are lucky...
We are talking about 2 completely different buyers and 2 completely different skis here, twin tip versus non twin tip, baggy clothes versus non baggy clothes, etc you get the point.
You cant compare WME vs 4bi9, same as you cant compare Dicks, or Backcountry.com to Jibij(RIP) it does not validate your argument at all. This website is awesome and supports our niche (or core if you want to call it, sorry rogge) part of the market, however without companies/shops of all shapes and sizes the Ski Industry will not exist at all.
So on that note the best post in here yet was from Tyler, so who can give some valid answers to the following...
Lets rather talk about the following questions that need to be
anwsered or at least considered. If we all start thinking the same way
we will be a stronger culture, more united and will last the test of
time.
#1 How do we keep the skiing community strong and united?
#2 How can we also help the small guy which is important for growth?
#3 How can we make make our sport become more mainstream?
#4 How can we make our sport easy for family's get out and ski, grow and evolve ?
#5 How do we evolve as a sport and what is next?
ScottHibbert
Member
I agree about less people on the mountain. I don't ride that much on weekends unless it is a comp, really nice day or pow day. I'm based out of Breck and ski Breck or Keystone on any given day. I have the epic pass as well so I like Vail on pow days.
Rogge
Active member
No, no, and no.
Meathead Films has consistently outsold Warren Miller films in all 60+ EMS stores for 3 years. Are we choking out Traveling Circus? No. We actually support them through our sister brand, Ski The East. Are we choking out Clown School? No. We film with LJ and use our vast social network to get more views for his crew's videos. Are we choking out CS Films? No, we're going to sell their film in our Ski The East store.
If we're going with this analogy then let me display it to you this way, Brad: Under Armour (or any big company for that matter) in a mom and pop store brings in NEW customers that may have not shopped there in the first place. To make the right and wrong distinction between big corporate America and "the sincerity of the local shops" is simply not American! Since when is success and prosperity frowned upon? If the Jib Yard could be franchised into every suburban community that lacks year round skiing, are you telling me you're going to say, "No" because it would lack the sincerity of a local shop? What's wrong with spreading the wealth and allowing others, that may not know the cool mom and pop shops, the opportunity to purchase quality products at an affordable price?
Lack of vision and the inability to adapt is what will kill "our culture." And I take great issue with calling it "our culture" because any open minded human being will tell you that the world's cultures are meant to be shared. If it is in fact "ours" then it's meant to be shared with anyone that has a desire to give it a try.
Meathead Films has consistently outsold Warren Miller films in all 60+ EMS stores for 3 years. Are we choking out Traveling Circus? No. We actually support them through our sister brand, Ski The East. Are we choking out Clown School? No. We film with LJ and use our vast social network to get more views for his crew's videos. Are we choking out CS Films? No, we're going to sell their film in our Ski The East store.
If we're going with this analogy then let me display it to you this way, Brad: Under Armour (or any big company for that matter) in a mom and pop store brings in NEW customers that may have not shopped there in the first place. To make the right and wrong distinction between big corporate America and "the sincerity of the local shops" is simply not American! Since when is success and prosperity frowned upon? If the Jib Yard could be franchised into every suburban community that lacks year round skiing, are you telling me you're going to say, "No" because it would lack the sincerity of a local shop? What's wrong with spreading the wealth and allowing others, that may not know the cool mom and pop shops, the opportunity to purchase quality products at an affordable price?
Lack of vision and the inability to adapt is what will kill "our culture." And I take great issue with calling it "our culture" because any open minded human being will tell you that the world's cultures are meant to be shared. If it is in fact "ours" then it's meant to be shared with anyone that has a desire to give it a try.
flexpattern
Active member
i think that many people will stick to what kit they can afford or know - when i brought my first pair of twins ( a few years ago) in my local shop they had either 4frnt (pretty new at the time), armada, line or atomic and salomon. i ended up going for atomic, not because the lines/armadas/4frnt were any less well built, but for the simple fact that i knew that atomic skis were the real deal, made in austria and built to last. there was no doubt that the other brands were just as good quality, but being (at the time) relativity new companies there was no chance that i wished to risk my money on some brands i had never heard of before. now a few years on it is obvious that those companies are the real deal and I would have no problems parting with my money for some planks from them.
but i think that MOST people will pay good money for what they know best until the smaller companies can show that they can build good skis - so as long as the smaller companies can keep promoting themselves and proving themselves, the "less core" ,as you like to put it, skiers will take note and start buying. companies like line and 4frnt had to start somewhere! it probably seems like a vicious circle right now for many small companies especially in this economic climate, but hold on, get your name out there, and promote!
and get repping your shit in europe for once instead of focusing on northern USA
but i think that MOST people will pay good money for what they know best until the smaller companies can show that they can build good skis - so as long as the smaller companies can keep promoting themselves and proving themselves, the "less core" ,as you like to put it, skiers will take note and start buying. companies like line and 4frnt had to start somewhere! it probably seems like a vicious circle right now for many small companies especially in this economic climate, but hold on, get your name out there, and promote!
and get repping your shit in europe for once instead of focusing on northern USA
Fish_Sandwich.
Active member
Why do we want to make this mainstream? Personal I guess, I certainly don't
Do you like crowded ass mountains? ......
Why do we want jibyards franchised in every neighborhood? How about
various of jibyard type places, all independant and dfferent, that's my
idea. No conglomerates
Is this just a business model? Skiing industry isn't super profitable
compared to others that companeis who produce ski stuff have their
fingers in. If said companies get cuts, guess what goes first.........
Are we recruiting people to ski? Think crowded, think everyone and their brothers girlfriends moms grandma
What is this a religion?
Cant it just be "our" thing, and if people can't take the time to find
out about skiing like freeride, freestyle, BC etc. etc. then maybe they
don't deserve it. I mean out of EVERYONE who goes to a mountain and
skis every year how many of them see NS types? Probably 100% of them.
Trust me, we (freeride, freestyle, BC, NS) have at least a small presence at every mountain. They
(the mainstream) know about our skiing, in the back of their minds.
They just don't give a shit, they could care less, they would rather
take their kids to a soccer game every weekend in the family minivan,
plus skiing is fucking expensive, and unless the prices were reduced so
drasticaly (like companies just all fold) it would still be too
expensive for most people, especially in this nice recession.
Why do we want every family o go skiing every weekend?
I guess I'm a close minded regressive bastard huh
Mountains are already crowded, with a huge influx of people we won't be
able to sustain it. The bigger a mountain gets the more money it costs
to use their products and services. The prices rises faster than the
benefits. I've seen it happen at almsot every mountain I've ever been
to. Don't say inflation, that is not the case.
If you can't afford gear from core (I even cringe when I say it now) companies that's cool, I'd never tell somebody they can't ski because of what they wear.
I think big companies just don't give any incentives to people to buy their gear, a lot of them flourish only because the customer is misinformed. With a little thought people could find sick deals, I doubt I've ever paid over 50% retail for anything (I'll ocassionally even buy shit like Arc'Teryx, if I get an insane deal on it). Big companies are usually just have stuff that is "there" at the big box store and there are no small/grass roots/underground stuff that may be superior, and can be priced less (in all fairness it can also be far higher). If the consumer doesn't make an effort to be informed (in this industry/culture) they don't deserve to have it shared with them. Skiing's not like so underground and exclusive that it's hard to know about. I guess I just have a different mentality than most??
Do you like crowded ass mountains? ......
Why do we want jibyards franchised in every neighborhood? How about
various of jibyard type places, all independant and dfferent, that's my
idea. No conglomerates
Is this just a business model? Skiing industry isn't super profitable
compared to others that companeis who produce ski stuff have their
fingers in. If said companies get cuts, guess what goes first.........
Are we recruiting people to ski? Think crowded, think everyone and their brothers girlfriends moms grandma
What is this a religion?
Cant it just be "our" thing, and if people can't take the time to find
out about skiing like freeride, freestyle, BC etc. etc. then maybe they
don't deserve it. I mean out of EVERYONE who goes to a mountain and
skis every year how many of them see NS types? Probably 100% of them.
Trust me, we (freeride, freestyle, BC, NS) have at least a small presence at every mountain. They
(the mainstream) know about our skiing, in the back of their minds.
They just don't give a shit, they could care less, they would rather
take their kids to a soccer game every weekend in the family minivan,
plus skiing is fucking expensive, and unless the prices were reduced so
drasticaly (like companies just all fold) it would still be too
expensive for most people, especially in this nice recession.
Why do we want every family o go skiing every weekend?
I guess I'm a close minded regressive bastard huh
Mountains are already crowded, with a huge influx of people we won't be
able to sustain it. The bigger a mountain gets the more money it costs
to use their products and services. The prices rises faster than the
benefits. I've seen it happen at almsot every mountain I've ever been
to. Don't say inflation, that is not the case.
If you can't afford gear from core (I even cringe when I say it now) companies that's cool, I'd never tell somebody they can't ski because of what they wear.
I think big companies just don't give any incentives to people to buy their gear, a lot of them flourish only because the customer is misinformed. With a little thought people could find sick deals, I doubt I've ever paid over 50% retail for anything (I'll ocassionally even buy shit like Arc'Teryx, if I get an insane deal on it). Big companies are usually just have stuff that is "there" at the big box store and there are no small/grass roots/underground stuff that may be superior, and can be priced less (in all fairness it can also be far higher). If the consumer doesn't make an effort to be informed (in this industry/culture) they don't deserve to have it shared with them. Skiing's not like so underground and exclusive that it's hard to know about. I guess I just have a different mentality than most??