PROTECT OUR CULTURE!

Its very hard times many shops have closed down in this past year. My shop in particular at this point we need an amazing winter or we won't be around next year. This for many of the smaller shops is true. More and more i deal with customers that come to pick my brain on a ski or boot and then ask for detailed information bout model and size and are never seen from again. Some are so brash to state halfway through a boot fit they intend to purchase online. This happened at a friends shop, a couple came in to look at boots, the owner does a full fit and then when closing the deal the customer states oh i intend to purchase online. When the owner states well I'm gonna have to charge you a $25 boot fit fee, which i believe is well worth the service, the customer refuses to pay. Also online bulk retailers offering skis of the current model year in jan. for 50% off, we can't afford to match it when our margin is around 35. These practices are making it harder and harder for good shops to continue doing business. So please support your local shop, they might not be there next year.
 
not to be a whore or anything but... buy ON3P skis.
if you go to Portland, theyll probably get you drunk or just kick it with you all night while they press skis 25 hrs a day, and if I'm there... I'll get ya drunk. I've recently learned its my role in life. know you're ski builder, doesn't get closer than that.
 
There is a big difference between "making it" and being strong and growing.
My point is, with a demographic as large as ours is our progressive shops should be doing much better than they are.
Imagine if all the energy that exists on this website channeled its buying efforts into progressive shops. They would be strong, and more and more would be opening all over the place. They would have the resources available to sponsor young talent and hold rail jams and other events.
Progressive shop owners would have the power and the control to hold the bad companies accountable.
If we work together as a culture and support one another with the same passion and verve that exists on this website. We will be a market unto ourselves, and we will own it. Not big corporations who dont give a shit.
Example:
If you dont believe it is possible, look at the surfing industry. They protect their local surf shops with loyalty and pride. The surfing industry is a market if its own, and they dont easily let just any brand into it.Surfers buy only from their local shops. The surf demographic as just a fraction of the size of ours, and they have 20 times the amount of local shops to buy from. All of them strong.
We easily have the ability to do the same. We all just need to work together. By doing so, we will have a large collection of healthy progressive shops to buy from and we as newschoolers, will control the market and the future direction of our culture.
 
Dont worry man, skiing is safe. Its not "cool" enough to get corrupted by the big bad commersal tastelessness. Skateboarding on the other hand has been completely fucked for years.
 
The fact that Jibij is gone with how big our demographic is shows a serious problem. Jibij and shops like it should be popping up all over the place not going out of business. Its a fixable problem that needs to beresolved. Progressive shops, and the excitement that they generate, is vital to the health and strength of our culture.
 
i didn't read the whole thread but if you live in or around boise, idaho support greenwoods ski haus. they are the best shop around. good product, good people, great service and they are one of those few shops that are actually transitioning from a traditional ski shop to a legit freeskier shop. i buy there to support the local economy and the local freeski scene and i buy brands like armada that they sell that are core brands. good shop + great product = everybody is happy. they are the only local shop that impresses year in and year out. if you aren't in boise or a surrounding area, find a shop like this where you live!
 
Jibij is gone........FactIt sucks.............Fact
You obviously were a loyal Jibij customer. Im sorry for your loss man. Your sensitivity is a perfect example of how important these local shops are to us, and we need to protect them.

 
StartFragmentStartFragmentBrad, I understand the point you are trying to make, but I think you are missing some key details.

First of all, I think the more companies the better since that puts more money in to skiing. I do not support companies that do not give back to freeskiing. Just advertising in Freeskier or on NS is not enough to earn my money. I think it is great that we have all of the small independent companies being started by people in the industry who want to make product their way, but big companies have their role as well. Freeskiing would not be where it is today without the help of big companies as they are the ones with big budgets to sponsor events, increase prize money, and sponsor skiers with enough money to make it a full time job and do what the love for a living. All of which give the sport more exposure and bring in more sales for the companies and shops in the industry.

A lot of companies being mentioned in this thread are great companies, but I think one that needs to be named is Salomon and everyone owes them a big thank you as they started this sport with the 1080 and sponsoring the pioneers(JF Cusson, JP Auclair, Mike Douglas, Vinnie Dorion,etc). I would consider Salomon to be a core company as well as a big company as you can't get more core than starting this sport.

As for big companies coming in to the sport, I look at all of the benefits they bring and a lot of it comes down to more money to support the sport from a variety of angles.

1) More money so more skiers can get paid to do what the love

2) More skiers can get sponsored as all companies have a finite about of marketing dollars to spend on sponsorships of athletes. Nike picked up TJ from Orage and then Orage was able to sponsor at least 3 athletes with the budget that opened up after losing TJ.

3) More money to spend on research and development to create better products every year.

4) Ads on websites like newschoolers and in magazines like Freeskier to help them grow and deliver more content to the readers. I worked directly with Doug Bishop at NS to get Under Armour involved since I believe NS is the best online community of freeskiers and wanted to have UA give NS advertising dollars and get some of the up and comers a chance to make some money and get exposure through the UA video slopestyle contest when we were losing contest left, right and center.

I worked in a local shop when I was younger and it was awesome. I think there is a difference between buying core brand and shopping at core shops. Shopping at core shops help the local economy and keep the fun vibe that those shops have. The big brands want to sell their products in these shops, so I don’t see how big brands hurt local shops.

In the end people should buy brands they like for whatever reason they want, whether it is product design, technology, team riders, etc. I choose brands that reinvest their profits back in to freeskiing and big brands like Under Armour are doing that.EndFragmentEndFragment
 
^hibbert speaks the truth
, also I'd like to say skiing doesn't have a huge demographic, NS is a great website I'm not saying otherwise but how many members do they have 150k maybe 200k?how many of those are actually active? how many aren't doubles? facebook has how many MILLION? the ski and snowboard industry as a whole doesn't make what the porn industry probably does in 2 months. there just isn't enough rich middle class generally white people. who like getting cold for skiing to be considered a significant demographic.
point of fact there aren't enough customers to support every shop out there, as every bro thinks he can make a better shop than what he has. in my hometown of ogden there are 6 maybe 7 shops all within a small area, all of them except maybe one are struggling. as mentioned before the ones with the best value as a shop i.e. quality shops to do the work, ones that put back constructively into the local scene are doing the best, but I doubt they'll make it through a bare winter. skiing just isn't surfing, and I don't think it ever could be, its much too expensive of a sport, as much as we all want to think we are the heart of the sport, we aren't joe blow shopping at your local sports store is. we might be the brain, we might think ourselves the soul but the heart that pumps money into our sports veins are all doctors, lawyers and other upper middle class people who don't need sponsors to go heli skiing.
 
Well I thinks the problem is clear...............
Today, ANY BRAND can buy its way into the ski and snowboard industry. Unfortunately, we sellout very cheap these days.
Some people cheaper than others.
Its sad.
"Click Clack!"

 
Good call about Descente Missile,
And like I said before, "I wont sellout."
I used to work for them. They were one of the only companies who would only sell there product through local ski shops. The new owners have decided to change that position and sell Dicks and Sports Authority, Backcountry.com. They made the announcement at our sales meeting, so I stood up and walked out. I will not work for a company who hurts local ski shops.
I have nothing to do with Descente! They SOLDOUT!
Now I just focus on the Jibyard. Its mine, and I wont sellout. Ask anyone who knows me or rides at the Jibyard. They know how serious I am.

 
Fair Enough, I am still a little confused...

You talk about selling out and how big corporations aren't "CORE." However in your affiliates you list Skullcandy. Number 2 manufacturer of headphones in the world, rad company, I support the hell out of what they are doing. They are sold in Target, Radio Shack, The Sports Authority, Dicks, and Backcountry.com yet you support them? What is the difference between them and Under Armour or Nike 6.0?

SOLDOUT?
 
I just want to give Brad total props here!

Brad is right on alot of points and so is Hibbert so thank you for the props on that. I think that what Brad is saying states a good point.

Yes there are alot of companies hurting out there right now but we all have to pull ourselves together and work for the common interest to keep freeskiing and our core identity alive and strong! A perfect example is what Brad and Mike are doing at the Jibyard right now.

These guys might never be million airs from what they have created but the passion and direction these guys are pushing the sport in is a core and authentic direction Kids have to realize that companies big and small want to keep our sport rolling because of what one day will lie ahead when freeskiing becomes more mainstream. Yes we must all work together for one common interest to keep skiing alive!!

Stand together this winter!

Cheers,

Tyler Gigg

International Freeski Team Manager

Salomon
 
I'm not into this love for salomon right here. Sure they were one of the first to make twin tips and we should be thankful to them for this. However, they are owned by money hungry men in suits that probably don't even ski. If freeskiing became less popular and salomon wasn't making enough money from their freeski range, I am in no doubt they drop it straight away to focus on whatever was more profitable, they did it to rollerblading, they'd do it to us.
 
Next time you are in Ogden Utah I think you should come and meet our staff. I will personally show you around the office and introduce you to the long line of authentic and core workers we are fortunate enough to have. Salomon people are some of the most skiing hungry people out there and I see your point but I just want to make sure you know that we are passionate about freeskiing and the direction for the sport in general.
Freeskiing will never die but it will evolve no doubt and that is what we look forward to!
Who knows what direction the sport will move to next but you can be sure to know that we have super passionate people at Salomon that do care about the direction our sport and will do anything to support it even if times are tough. We believe in our past present and our future.
Thank you,
 
Please to keep this forum on topic we need to talk about how we can all work together rather that hating on specific brands or companies. Yes Salomon is a bigger brand but we must all work together!!
Lets rather talk about the following questions that need to be anwsered or at least considered. If we all start thinking the same way we will be a stronger culture, more united and will last the test of time.

#1 How do we keep the skiing community strong and united?
#2 How can we also help the small guy which is important for growth?
#3 How can we make make our sport become more mainstream?
#4 How can we make our sport easy for family's get out and ski, grow and evolve ?
#5 How do we evolve as a sport and what is next?
 
I have no doubt the staff of the skiing part of salomon are very passionate about skiing however the people that make the business decisions, I'm not so sure, in fact i'm almost certain all they are interested in is money and how to get the largest amount of it. I expect all the staff that were a part of the rollerblading section were passionate about that too till the job they did didn't make enough money for the business any more and they got dropped.
 
Keep in mind this thread is not about Salomon and this happens with most every business venture, its supply and demand my friend.
Salomon will always have freeskiing and you don't have to worry about that trust me on this one!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
Whats the difference between Skull Candy, Nike, and Underarmour?

Thats like asking what the difference is between an underage drinker and a serial rapist, because they both break the law.

They are all the same I guess.....Wow! Good point.

 


I just dont rate brands by how much money they spend.

I have much more respect for the guy who donates his time and energy to a cause, than the guy who is worth 50 million that donates $500 then walks away.

If Underarmour and Nike are still in the ski and snowboard culture 10 years from now, I will change my position about them.

They need to show us that they are "dedicated" to the culture, not just "feeding" off of it.

They need to "earn" our respect........Not just "buy" it.

 
Spot on, plus I'm just a skeptic at this point.

Sad to hear that about DNA, had a sick ass pair of pants from them 2 years ago. Still look almost new.

Some companies just seem out of touch with the community.
 
StartFragmentBrad,

I can tell you are stuck in your new found core way so no matter what facts I bring you, you will still disagree.

To quote you “And like I said before, "I wont sellout." Except according to your mentality you sold out the day you started working at Descente since they started as a basketball clothing company before it started making ski clothes, making them not a core company. I guess after you quit working there you became core?

You complain about big brands selling products to the freeski community as not being core. The jibyard sells a service. Do you have a test for all customers to make sure they are core or do you let anyone use your facility? If you take a penny from a college kid or weekend warrior who wears under armour and shops online or at dicks then how are you any different from a big brand trying to be apart of the ski industry?

If we all had your mentality, Oakley should not be in skiing since they started in Moto,

To quote you again “Thank you. Well put. I know that we have to do what we can to make it through this tough time, but just try it "invest in the shops and brands who are invested in us."”

How much money has the jibyard invested in skiing? How many events has it sponsored? How many athletes does it pay? How many videos do you sponsor? How much is your advertising package with Newschoolers? Pretty sure Under Armour invests more than the jibyard does in all of these areas. You might call that dumping money into the industry, but I would call it well-allocated finances into the growth and support of athletes, events, and the industry as a whole.

I believe that with the right people at the big companies who understand skiing, we will not lose any of the culture, direction or identity.

Tyler makes a great point about instead of hating on specific brands or shops, why not work together to make everyone as whole stronger and bigger. I had to respond to your hating on big brands because it was one sided and lacking the facts. EndFragment
 
Scott,
I respect and fully understand your defense of underarmour. Companies like them and Nike pay their athletes very well, and invest a lot of money into advertising and marketing projects.
From this angle, I totally agree with you.
However, the overall damage created by Nike and Underarmours involvement in our culture is permanent and substantial.
Damage #1 The loss of small local specialty retail shops
Nike and Underarmours push into our industry is through partnerships with the big chain sporting good stores like Sports Authority and Dicks. These store chains work very similar to Wallmart. They buy product at very large volume and get massive discounts as a result. This makes it impossible for small local shops to compete and is causing more and more of them to go out of business each year.
Damage #2 The loss of many ski and snowboard brands
Nike and Underarmour also compete and take away much needed revenue for smaller ski and snowboard brands who survive purely on the ski and snowboard market. These brands don't have the power and strength to compete, and many of them will be lost.
Now if Nike and Underarmour truly invest in our culture and stay with it through thick and thin for many years to come. This loss can be justified. However, history has shown time and time again that these large companies pull out of our market after just a short amount of time. The ski and snowboard market just does not generate the kind of money they view as worth the time and energy.
If Nike and Underarmour end up sticking it out and truly invest in our market for a long time, I will change my opinion about them.
But if they are here to just feed on us and leave, the overall damage they leave behind is not worth it.

We need to protect our culture.

 
I totally support the idea...

Those of you, who rollerblade see whats happaning with the industry last years... its like the sport is dying... I remember how salomon stoped making aggressive inline skates... they have products that sell better so they prefer to invest in that... K2 did the same... now there are only true aggressive inline brands out there who try to support the scene....

 
great thread, very intresting....i can remember going to my local shop (Fire on the Mountain Dover, NH) when i was much much younger like 10 years old and even younger im 21 now and i dont know what i would do if they went out if business witch is why i support it whenever possible, although i dont buy my skis there all the other skiiing accessories will be bought from my local shop, i believe that it is very important to our sport that these local shops stay open all over the world, one thing though i dont like to see some brands "sell out" but i would like to see our sport become more mainstream i think these two issues conflict with each other slightly...
 
A quick solution is dont buy anything snowboarding. Why would you support Special Blend? or Bonfire?

or Anon for that matter when you can buy a product that supports skiing. like TREW outerwear, Armada outerwear, or buy some SaGa or maybe Orage. These are the types of companies that put back into skiing, Why give your money to the snowboard industry?
 
That makes a really good point right there. would you rather buy chinese-made snowboarding clothes to save a buck? or help the ski industry get the extra boost it needs by spending the extra dollar and buy from companys that make their outerwear in North america and Europe. Its unique, and it puts money into the sport we all love.
 
Where a good is made doesn't have a lot to do with how much a company puts into freeskiing. If anything they'd have a bigger budget due to cheaper inputs because they produce in China. Now there are some companies that don't produce in China that are of superior quality, but I doubt it's just because they are made in the US. 2 Exceptions I can think of off the top of my head are ON3P and Moment, both also prime examples of a core company as well.

Buying goods from China has other repercussions but not relavant to this thread.
 
this really upsets me, that our "culture" of skiing has evolved into what kind of shit you buy at your local ski shop. our culture should have NOTHING to do with companies and shops, it should be where your shredding and how hard your shredding. if you need some steezy shit to show off what you can buy at a store.. go for it. ill go out on the hill wearing Carhartt's and some badass shades and make just as much of a statement.

so, fuck the industrialized 'culture' . and fuck companies, they're essentially ruining skiing. they ARE however producing some steezy as hell shit, which i guess helps you ride..?
 
i've posted in here too much already but LOL @ the big companies trying to defend themselves. You guys are not part of a freeski company, you are part of a big business that has a freeski section. As much as money you put into freeskiing is well appreciated right now the fact is your owners could live without this fragment of the sports industry. Should it become not as profitable and there is not the same demand for freestyle products as there is now they will feel like it is no big deal to make a business decision that results in them leaving our small industry to focus on something more profitable. This is how big business works, I don't like it and i'm sure its not something you like to admit to being a part of.
If we want to protect the future of our culture it is companies owned and ran by people passionate about this cause we need to support. Should freeskiing take a downturn in popularity and the big money gets taken away it is those companies that will stand and fight to keep the sport and its culture alive. If we support the small guy now, the guy who will look out for us, we will never have to worry cos if they grow to be biggest companies in skiing they will still care about the future of our sport more than increasing the size of their bank balance then we will always have them.
Unfortunately Amer sports does not care about skiing, it cares about money, same goes for the Jarden corporation and likely the numerous other companys that did not start as ski companys and are not owned by skiers, companys like Head, Under Armour, Nike, Adidas, Scott... These are companys that make twintip skis or freeski inspired outerwear not because they are passionate freeskiing but because it is popular right now and will make them money.
Now don't get me wrong I understand that it is the main goal of any business to make a profit, however, there are many who chose to make a profit from freeskiing from the beginning so that they could be involved in something they love and give back to its participants. These are the companies that are essential to the life of our sport and its culture.
 
how about suporting companies that make a good product, surface, armarda, line, orage, soloman boots(the skis suck), dabello, moment, on3p. all companies that make great products. I susport small companies but the shops are way more important
 
The Birth of SCOTT and the Revolution of Ski Poles



The sport of skiing was revolutionized with a technical innovation from

Ed Scott, a talented engineer and ski racer living in Sun Valley,

Idaho. Ed Scott's invention of the first tapered aluminum ski pole

immediately replaced the sport's existing use of bamboo and steel. That

revolutionary invention launched a new brand, SCOTT, and fundamentally

positioned SCOTT as a technical product leader in the skiing market. Ed

Scott's initial vision of technical innovation would serve as the

cornerstone company philosophy as the brand matured and expanded to new

markets

We totally did not start as a ski company...

 
That doesn't really mean much, they are their own separate company for the most part I think, I doubt if Bonfire does well they just give money back to their parent company, WHO THEN puts it back into the ski industry. Basilly, I doubt that if Bonfire does well they give Solly money that is used for R&D on skis, ski comps, or other such things. I think Salomon is too big, and not a good value anymore, although I haven't ridden any of their new or recent skis other than foils which I hated, but I don't think those were a great representation of Solly anyway.

It seems like once a company gets so big it must find new markets to sustain it's growth, this means advertising.

To sum it up

1. Company is too big to sustain growth SOLEY marketing to the core freeski/freestyle ski community (free-riders, big mtn, NS types and such)

2. They have to increase advertising to reach new markets, this means more spent on advertising than products. Don't tell me it also puts more into R&D. ON3P and Moment both make skis superior to Salomon (imo) and they are pretty new companies with nowhere near the budget of Solly. Quality skis are much more than: Huge advertising budget ---> Huge sales ---> Huge R&D.

3. Once they start targeting people not listed above (with some exceptions and/or additions) the quality of their product falls.

4. Not that most people care but I don't like having gear that every other gaper can just go down to the shop and buy, and once those types of people are targeted the stop buying gear from said company. For example, if Saga was sold at Dicks (not that it ever will be) it would lose most of it's novelty and originality.

I've seen it happen to Oakley, and Northface especially (in terms of when they tried to increase sales and reach more people their quality went down the drain), and other companies as well, I can't think of them off the top of my head and I'm in class right now.

I've been hard on Salomon, I actually like them overall as a company (including their non-ski stuff), and they've proved themselves in the industry for sure. Just doesn't suit my tastes personally.
 
Sorry, about that, i must have had my hater goggles on when i forgot to check. =( Scott is ok I guess, still not a core freeski company, but at least not a mountain bike one like i had thought.
 
how is Scott not core? besides creating poles, they were one of hte first companies to offer such a variety of goggles, including style AND function. so.. all these little companies today are essentially following in the footsteps of pioneers such as Scott.
 
Were those hater goggs the Anon ones you have on in your 08 setup photo in your profile complete with Ronin and Holden gear? Thats pretty core freeski style right there..
 
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