NS why do you like OBAMA?......No Canadians allowed.

It's not a problem of them being dishonest. They can honestly do what they think is best and still, just by virtue of their position, make terrible management decisions because their interests are aligned TOO much with the company's. Board diversity is the key to long term success... and the point of all of this is to make american car manufacturers viable and successful over decades. Having the union control the company is the opposite of diverse and I would expect it to have the opposite effect.
 
Yes and no.His tax plan will send us into debt, but it might help for immediate relief, universal healthcare is a terrible idea imo just because people wait 5 hours in the ER in canada because doctors are so busy. His solution is very very similar to FDR's (I just wrote a paper comparing the two), but FDR wasn't what got the U.S. out of the depression, WWII did. A new UCLA study just figured out FDR actually elongated the depression by an estimated 7 years. (Again, this is a study, not the truth. It is interesting how much more quickly Italy and Germany got out of similar economic problems Germany with hyperinflation and Italy was hit hard by the market crash as far as exports go.) It's tough though, no one could get us out of here. McCain imo would have done a worse job, but thats just me. I just really dislike all the hype about him without him proving himself. He has some good ideas, (reforming the TARP, creating a "bad bank" to put all the frozen toxic funds into), but he has some bad ideas as well, (foreign relations is too weak, a lot of his plans extend into the next term, which is uncertain.) Again, all of this is opinion so dont flame for anything. Also, i really believe that it will its going to be a long, tough, journey out of the recession. We'll see how it all turns out.
 
i reaaaally dont like that study though, it makes pretty big assumptions about the decisions people would have made in other circumstances. assumptions that you really have no way of knowing would actually come true. but idk thats just me. the new deal DID stabilize the economy. by '39 we werent back up in full swing, but had definitely stop the erratic movements of the past.

also interestingly in '37 (i think, it may have been '38), FDR actually tried to cut down on spending and balance the budget, and the economy tumbled a bit again. granted it is the economy, so theres a million factors to everything, but i think it definitely has some correlation.
 
i agree on all three. clinton himself admitted he fucked up, but that at the time with the economic climate he had, it seemed like a good idea.
 
Why do you think he's an ass hole? Do you have some evidence to back this up or are you just pissed because McCain lost?

-I like that he is more open in speaking to other countries. He acts like a person and is extremely sociable with other leaders. He respects them and they respect him. THey understand that he wants to change the US.

-I like the bail outs. They can work and they have before. The car companies made shitty decisions but those are fixable. Look at Chrysler in '79. They repaid all of the loan money, plus interest in ~10 years.

-Obama doesn't want to "own" these companies, its a lot of extra stuff to deal with. Also, The US has always been pretty socialist, big companies will end up being tied into government at some point or another. look at big oil and the tycoons in the 1900's.

-I felt he did an excellent job with the pirate situation, he tried to diplomatically end the situation (pretty damn hard to do with pirates...) and when that failed the military was allowed to take control of the situation. I do think a convoy system should be put into effect and I have heard that it is in the works.

I respect 95% of his decisions and I think people need to realize that Obama isn't a mesiah. A lot of his ideas have been put in place and people need to realize that you cant fix an economy over night. It will take a long time for the economy to recover from all of this stuff and it simply cannot be fixed over night. Its really easy for things to go wrong quickly, but it takes a lot of time for good things to happen.

 
Yeah, the study was interesting, especially because it came out of such a liberal school. The new deal had its ups and its downs but for the most part I would agree that it helped a lot. And technically people say that by 39 we were "out" of the depression, but it was more of what you said (stabilization and not full economic recovery.) I actually didn't know that about '37, I see what you mean. I don't know, again it's far to early to tell what will happen. We just have to sit back, wait, and see.
 
precisely. we would have recovered anyways, the war just accelerated it exponentially. although, really, what sets massive govt spending for a war apart from massive govt spending for peacetime infrastructure?

and yes, its way too early to tell yet.
 
I am not saying that I don't like Obama, I was split between the two candidates during election.

But what I absolutely do hate are all the people that jumped on the Obama train for the sole fact that everyone else did. It is funny how most of these people cannot tell you one stance that Obama took before the election.

fuck politics
 
okay so me and my whole family are consirvative..but we're not like other people who hope obama fails as a president. we'd love to see him fix this shitty economy. but we didn't think during the election that he would do that great of a job, but it's still early only time and harder decisions will tell.
 
im not saying fuck the little guy im saying without unions companies wouldnt get run into the ground all the time. just wait they will run chrysler into the ground just wait and see lol.
 
oh im not denying letting the union run Chrysler is a mistake it is. what they need is people to start making different cars that people... idk buy? hahaha what a concenpt

But without unions a lot of workers would have gotten fucked over as well.
 
I think obama is a great fit for our changing times. He is going to be a face that everyone knows on site, like che guverra (sp). I think we all know the world is on the tip of revolution. The power of the peoples voices have been forgoten. The world for the past 80-90 years has been about burecracy and what the man in power says. I think that this is starting to change and we need someone with good morals and a relastic point of view. Obam is the perfect fit for democratic revolution.

Please feel free to argue. As long as you feel that our voices should be heard like they were.
 
Unions are deffinetly killing those companies. Would some people have lost their jobs without them. Yes Did those people need to lose their jobs? Yes. Since thos people didnt lose their jobs the automobile comapnies are in the situation they are today.
Would that have hurt some people? Yes, but guess what thats part of life. If you dont want that to be part of life maybe you should end yours so you dont have to deal with it (jk) that or just grow up and realize some things in life are going to hurt.
 
now im not saying unions are perfect. they arent. my grandpa has problems with the plumbing union all the time. BUT, to be honest, GM wasnt really paying their workers THAT much more than say Toyota or Honda was in THIER american factorys. a few dollars perhaps, but not enough that it should have killed the company to the degree it did. american companies built shitty cars, and gas guzzlers noone wanted when gas was 5.00 a gallon. it was shitty buisness decisions that killed them, not really the unions.
 
i suppose i should revise that. the unions are to blame SOME, but they arent as evil as people make them out to be. and as of recently they have made quite a few concessions. it just might be too late.
 
to a degree. yes. and they had the POTENTIAL to sell cars, but were producing ones americans didnt want.
 
i think what ben is trying to say is besides all the rednecks that have a hard on for the dodge trucks chrysler has nothing to sell.
 
Well the whole deal with increasing tax on cigarettes and alcohol is that its ok because these are morally deplorable pastimes to be involved in.
 
or just because they arent terribly good for your health. alcohol IN MODERATION is ok. cigarettes just suck. period.
 
punisher-2-ray-stevenson.jpg


sorry is not acceptable.
 
yes. but im curious what percentage of cars PRODUCED vs cars sold were talking about here. ie honda may produce less vehicles along with selling less, therefore they would lose less money. i hope that makes sense.

in general you can make a graph/chart say whatever you want, so idk. im not saying those numbers are wrong, they just may be leaving things out.
 
yeah i was actually wondering the same thing, i could see what ur saying GM produced wayyyyyyyy too many cars and only sold a fraction of them compared to say honda who produces much less but there ratio of producing to selling could be better
 
exactly. if im looking at the bottom chart correctly, GM is down almost 44% in sales. now i understand they have cut down production, but have they cut down production by 44% to compensate for the loss in income?

also more evidence toward people not wanting to buy gm/chrysler. everyone has lost buisness, but gm and chrysler have lost a considerable amount more than toyota and honda. not to mention this i believe is the first year its been noticeably tough for them, vs the american companies which have been having trouble for a while.
 
thats why im so against this bailout for the automakers. let the car companies die, yes jobs are lost but someone has to come in and start making new cars. people will get their jobs back with these new companies. obama is giving them more and more money to fail with so him and his government can own these companies.
 
theres no way that other companies could spring up and capture even CLOSE to the number of workers that would be fucked over though. i really do have mixed feelings about the auto bailouts. id love to seem them fail, but i dont want to see all those people who really werent in control of the poor decisions made be fucked over, and the economic repercussions of that many people being unemployed.

and i honestly dont think obamas goal is to own these companies, i dont think hes some evil dude plotting global takeover. hes doing what HE thinks is right. if you dont agree thats fine, but dont act like this is all some diabolical plot.
 
Socialist. lol i know you love that word ben.

well they are already laying off 21,000 workers i forget who maybe GM. i mean really its just going to get worse so we might as well let knew companies form and restructure.
 
knew........ i dont know whether i should laugh my ass of or go cry like i did when Pride got bought out.... i think im gonna go cry.
 
i agree, let them die, and let them start over again, it doesnt sound great but i think its the best option
 
or we can just keeping giving them billions and billions of our dollars and on top of that we can give obama billions and billions of dollars over time to pay off the interest for giving the automakers billions and billions of dollars. LOL

1 billllllllllllliiioooooooonnn dollars
 
Thats why a free market system is the best system. But that doesn't work when companies just get bailed out. If a company is smart then they wouldn't make as much, or any, of the cars they barely can sell. And also i think that if a auto maker is doing bad then STOP MAKING A FULL NEW LIKE OF CARS EVERY YEAR!! Not many people buy a new car every year like its a new coat.
 
There's a great list out on the new york post Website that's called like, 100 Days, 100 mistakes. I agree with most of them. His biggest fuck up for me so far was his refusal to comment on the pirate situation when it first happened. Also, he should have allowed the navy to do its fucking job and kill those scumbags the second our guy jumped off the boat. His indecision and unwillingness to take a fucking stand embarrassed the country on the world stage. Hillary clinton fucked it up too. Also, every single one of Obama's cabinet appointments has been extremely shady. Tim Geithner is an imbecile, his handling of the budget is proof enough of that, not to mention his sparkling tax records. There's so much more I could say but I'm watching the bruins, so check this....
http://www.nypost.com/seven/04252009/postopinion/opedcolumnists/100_days__100_mistakes_166177.htm

I especially like this one : "After pushing Congress for weeks to hurry up and pass the massive $787

billion stimulus bill, President Obama promptly took off for a

three-day holiday getaway." -- New York Post, 2/15
 
One thing I will say in regards to every president in history: they have to be stupid to even want the job.

I would hate to have the entire nation angry if I took a day off, pooped for too long, or sneezed on national television.
 
http://www.nypost.com/seven/04252009/postopinion/opedcolumnists/100_days__100_mistakes_166177.htm

for those of you who are too lazy to use copy/paste or too stupid to know how to.

Another thing, his ignorance of the Tax Day Tea Parties was probably the most arrogant move I have ever seen. To totally ignore protests in hundreds of American cities across the country is just insane...maybe it's because the tea parties were largely peaceable and respectful, unlike most left-wing protests where shit gets destroyed and people get hurt. How can you have that many people demonstrating in that many cities on the exact same day and the president has no idea about it? I'm calling bullshit on him, he said he didn't hear about them because he does not want to step into the real world and acknowledge that a good amount of people are unhappy with his policies.

And to the moron who said bush's first 100 days were worse, Obama's approval rating right now is below what Bush's was after his 100 days. I know approval rating isn't everything, but all you bush bashers constantly referred people to his poll numbers while he was prez.

I don't know how much I can't stand obama, I'm sure I can't stand him a lot, but I have zero tolerance for Geithner and anyone from Obama's cabinet. If there were an olypics for tax cheats, Obama's cabinet would be representing the US for sure.

Last One: Obama had airforce 1 fly very low over NYC the other day for a photo op and had a fighter pilot behind him. In a post 9-11 NYC, I'm sure you can figure out why that is a fucking idiotic move. People in NY were shitting bricks because they thought it was a hijaked plane trying to crash into a building.

Last One: THIS IS GREAT: 72. On Earth Day, Obama took two flights on Air Force

One and four on Marine One to get to Iowa, burning more than 9,000

gallons of fuel.
 
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