Liberals vs Conservatives
- Thread starter yeahmon
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louie.mirags
Active member
There are more than two options despite what CNN and Foxnews want us to think.
-benedetto
Active member
Nothing else better to do this morning then beat a dead horse.
californiagrown
Active member
I try to help those dumber and/or less fortunate than I. I believe in equal rights, and I believe that people who think other human beings are lesser because of their race, sexual orientation, religion, or sex should be culled.
Hodor
Member
Please watch this.This talk and his book The Righteous Mind totally changed the way I look at politics.
I am a liberal because I tend to value fairness over order but in times like today I try my best to understand and appreciate what conservatives (excluding racists, science deniers, or homophobics) have to offer since we need both ends of the spectrum to make progress while also retaining some sense of order.
"If you are young and conservative, then you don't have a heart, but if you are old and liberal then you don't have a brain." -some person said that once.
Barefootin_Fiend
Active member
i don't give a single shit who you fuck, marry, or identify as. You do you and get on wit yo bad self. I think a woman has the right to make decisions concerning her own body and the government can fuck right off with their interference. I want to keep as much of my money as possible since I've worked fucking hard to earn it. I think the drug war is the biggest joke of the 20th and 21st centuries. And I love the fucking shit out of my guns....don't you dare try and take them away from me.
Charlie*
Member
13448685:yeahmon said:
Complete independent here.
I dont think socialism needs to be implemented. Socialism means just paying into a system of government that in turn provides goods/services. We're already doing that. The difference is, we have no say in where are tax money goes, most of our tax dollars are going to the military industrial complex, the war machine, siphoned off by corrupt politicians, government contractors and big corporations, extravagant perks and parties for government workers, wasteful spending around every corner (and the list goes on). Meanwhile the infrastructure in this country has never been worse. Roads are deteriorated, bridges are borderline dangerous, education is barely invested in, healthcare is unaffordable, public transport sucks in most places, veterans are essentially ignored; and this list goes on as well... Socialism in my view is an extreme, we don't need to go that far. We just need to take money out of politics, drain the filth in Washington and take back our government (and I say that to all republican/democrat/independents). Our oligarchical government doesn't give a shit about us, only themselves and their wealthy friends, donors, lobbyists and major corporations. The sooner people realize that, the sooner we can get this country back on track.
ndye
Active member
13448685:yeahmon said:
I believe that the ever increasing wealth gap and current laws in the United States disproportionately affect the wealthiest Americans and corporations at the expense of low income and middle class families. The wealth gap now is larger than it has ever been before.
I believe in universal health care, because I believe that with our right to health care we should have a right to health insurance. People being uninsured leads to them ignoring major issues with there health until the last possible minute, and this is most widespread in low income people who then upon receiving health care are unable to pay for it, and therefor that is picked up by the taxpayers.
I believe in free public education, because I believe higher public education is now not only important but a necessity for the betterment of an individual in society. I believe a crucial part of the American dream and the purpose of this country, is that everyone can succeed if they work hard, I believe free public higher education would help us steer ourselves back to that point.
A common misconception pushed by individuals is that we have the highest corporate tax rate in developed countries, which is in itself true. However we have so many tax breaks that our average effective tax rate is actually lower than the average of what many would consider the worlds developed countries. Slashing the capital gains tax and the rates paid by top earners in society is not beneficial to the middle class.
Although the top tiers of society are indeed what many people love to refer to as "job creators" they simply are not. The middle class drives business, and spends disproportionately more money compared to top earners. Our economy is driven by spending and in reality the middle class. Without a strong middle class, we cannot have a strong economy.
I believe some socialist ideologies will help to strengthen the middle class.
I believe people who peddle to the American public that issues like the estate tax, the worlds highest corporate tax rate, and trickle down economics are simply lying to the American public to push their political agendas which in reality are the agendas of many major industries, and continue to receive financial backing from them and stay in power as long as possible.
If you dont believe my rant about money in politics from special interests, take a look at James M. Inhofe the senate's environment and public works committee majority chairman. Now look at his top donors to his campaign:
http://www.opensecrets.org/politicians/summary.php?cid=N00005582
Now tell me that this man impartially makes decisions about the environment without remembering who gave him money to get there, and will continue to give him money to stay there.
The system is rigged against progress and the American poor and middle class, we deny science, we deny economics, and sometimes we outright deny the truth. A better educated, better paid, and better informed America is the best America we could ask for.
End rant.
yeahmon
Member
13448691:ndye said:
Watch this
http://www.youngcons.com/shark-tank...ns-erin-burnett-on-obama-economics-and-the-1/
louie.mirags
Active member
ndye, ideally what you're saying would be great. However, greed tends to get in the way. For example, the Affordable Care Act just forces people to pay for insurance instead of providing it equally to everyone. It changed what plan covered what, raised co-pays in some cases, raised rates in cases, caused people to lose their primary doctors or lose their jobs. Now I am not saying that some people aren't benefiting, but plenty of horror stories. And who makes out no matter what is the healthcare and insurance companies. Insurance rates reflect how you're paying for the people who don't have insurance. And I meet lazy people daily. Why should I be paying for their healthcare? Do I feel bad for the widow with 4 kids? Yes I do. But how about the people just getting free care because they don't want to work?
It reminds me of college book stores. You're forced to buy books so companies can charge whatever they want. A book barely changes and the new edition cost the same amount. This is what I see happening to the medical field. You're forced to go through insurance so they charge what they want. People need medicine so prescription companies make billions. The inflated cost can be erased by going private because if people can't afford it they will go else where. And does everyone need medical care? If joe dirt wants to live as minimal as possible with no job, why should my medical insurance cover him and his family? The $130 I pay a month toward insurance should be saved until I need to go to the doctor. And if somebody doesn't want to save until it is too late, why is that everyone's problem?
It reminds me of college book stores. You're forced to buy books so companies can charge whatever they want. A book barely changes and the new edition cost the same amount. This is what I see happening to the medical field. You're forced to go through insurance so they charge what they want. People need medicine so prescription companies make billions. The inflated cost can be erased by going private because if people can't afford it they will go else where. And does everyone need medical care? If joe dirt wants to live as minimal as possible with no job, why should my medical insurance cover him and his family? The $130 I pay a month toward insurance should be saved until I need to go to the doctor. And if somebody doesn't want to save until it is too late, why is that everyone's problem?
yeahmon
Member
13448690:Charlie* said:
I think as citizens we need to stop relying on the government to solve all of our problems we need to go out and fix them our selves I believe the only place he government should have in our lives is to protect us
"The governments job should be to protect citizens lives not to run there lives" -Ronald Reagan
ndye
Active member
13448700:yeahmon said:
He mislead about the rates that he pays, albeit percentages true it is nowhere near his effective tax rate. Look that up.
Small businesses do not make up any significant portion of the 1%. Small businesses thrive from increased wages at the bottom tier, you should see how that works. He is right, small businesses are crucial to economic domestic success, he just misleads you into thinking that he has anytime recently been a small business man. Jobs are created by an economy that spends. We should remove a lot of regulations on small businesses. However the issue I have here is major corporations which due to the way they run in America make it nearly impossible for small businesses to compete.
You're being mislead into believing that it is as simple as he puts it. Beware of simple arguments.
There is a lot more people who want jobs then jobs available, that is the idea of unemployment. If someone has been looking for a job, and I offer them $8 hour, sure they have two kids and they know its not enough but its something, I could offer them 7 or 6 or 5 they will take it! Workers are a surplus compared to jobs, so these jobs need to offer people a living wage, they spend more and markets expand making more living wage jobs available.
ndye
Active member
13448704:louie.mirags said:
I am an advocate of single payer health insurance, not the Affordable Care act. The Affordable Care act albeit having some things I like, along with many things I do not like, is not the form of healthcare I believe to be the best for the U.S.
There will always be lazy people, that is unavoidable, I do believe the percentage is a lot smaller than mainstream media would like us to believe however.
ANDR01D
Active member
13448700:yeahmon said:
Lol, I'm sure real, solid, unbiased info is coming out of a site called Young Conservatives.
This country is not going anywhere with the system they have in place right now. And the funny thing is, people like you only prolong our transformation into a modern government for the people, by the people. There is no reason that in today's highly social age, that someone should have to be a multi-millionaire with a good family name in order to get a position where they can do good for the people. Nor is there a good reason for why the electoral college still exists despite the fact that we could easily capture and use the popular vote.
Actually, I lied, there is a reason why all these things are still this way. It's because it helps keep the status-quo in a system where those in power make shit loads of money, misrepresent their people, and then lie to get re-elected, only to do it all over again.
I love this country, but I despise the current state of its government. It constantly rains shit on the middle and lower class because people have faith that the all-mighty "Job Creators" will work for the common good instead of line their own pockets.
louie.mirags
Active member
13448712:ndye said:
I agree bias media likes to paint the picture of the welfare queen which is mostly bullshit. But, I do know people who are not doing their fair share and that will always be a problem to me.
13448713:ndye said:
Yup, it is everyone's problem and that is what I do not like. With the universal healthcare the money would still have to come from somewhere via taxes. So, the government would just decide who gets to benefit the most. And for example, education is government ran and look at where they're at.
ndye
Active member
13448720:louie.mirags said:
We have guaranteed health care in the United States. We already have that. Poor people do not get basic treatment, because it costs too much, when shit does go south and they need it to survive it costs more than basic treatment would have been. That bill is picked up by the taxpayer. The US pays twice as much per person to get health care compared to the average among countries with universal health care. By providing universal health care, you dont get double hit by you paying your dues individually, and then paying for the poor to get overly costly treatment.
I know it doesnt seem sensical, but universal health care does save everyday people like me and you, money in the long run.
onenerdykid
Active member
13448706:yeahmon said:
As someone who has lived in America and now currently lives in democratic socialist Austria, I have had the privilege of experiencing both governments and their affects on its citizens. If you think the citizens in democratic socialism think they are less free or have their human rights infringed upon, you are greatly mistaken.
For starters, if you take the Hobbesian view that the government solely exists to keep us from killing each other, you have a bleak outlook on what a good government is capable of. In America, we expect that police and firemen to be a free service but why it should stop there is not clear to me. Government should be doing more than simply keeping us from killing each other. It should exist in a way that enables and maximizes our potential as human beings and allow us to live the fullest lives possible. And this, generally, is how a lot of European countries act.
Sure there are hefty taxes associated with this, but I now reap the benefits of free/super cheap health care and people are generally much healthier because of it. College/university is FREE but only the smartest and best get it (the son of the CEO can't simply buy his way in like in the good ol' US of A), which encourages a higher standard of education in general. So consequently the secondary education standards are higher. Everything is so fucking clean it is spooky. Want to own a gun? Sure you can- you just need undergo mental health exams and prove to the police every year that you keep the gun safe and possess the proper knowledge of how to operate, handle, and care for the gun. If not, you can't own one. And people generally lead more happy, healthier lives with just as many and in some case more freedom than in the USA.
Ultimately, I encourage everyone to study politics, political philosophy, and ethical philosophy and come to your own conclusions (don't just believe what Fox or CNN spews at you). It also helps to actually travel a bit and see these places first hand (if you are able to) so you can actually form a super well rounded opinion.
ndye
Active member
13448791:yeahmon said:
In communism, everyone is essentially equal which squashes the ability to excel, and be successful based off your individual innovations.
In a socialist state, many things, such as higher education and healthcare, are built in a way that allows for people regardless of income to access them, higher incomes are taxed at greater percentages, there will still be income inequality.
Idologically: people who make a lot of money will still be rich, however they will have to pay more into utilities, and social structures than in a completely free market. People who have nothing will have the tools available to remove themselves from poverty. Raised wages for the middle class bolster the economy by increasing spending.
onenerdykid
Active member
13448791:yeahmon said:
13448795:ndye said:
Also, in Marxist communism the ultimate end goal is the abolition of the government and the state functions on direct democracy.
Until that time comes (if at all) the government as such is in place to ensure that humanity flourishes as a whole. Man is not alienated from his job, from his product, from his labor process, from his environment, from his friends, from his family, etc - all of that naturally arises from his natural self and projection of that self into the world (his work), one that is not oppressed.
Something you definitely won't hear about on Fox news, and quite a different picture than the tyrants of history failed to produce. Again, why studying politics, political science, and political philosophy will truly open your eyes to a lot of great ideas that the modern media totally glosses over and ignores.
ndye
Active member
13448811:yeahmon said:
Hahah dude what? Democratic socialism does not in itself go against any part of the constitution. You're reaching to defened the idea that this is bad without having an argument against it, especially since you didnt know what I was even talking about till a few posts ago?
onenerdykid
Active member
13448811:yeahmon said:
Why is it so?
In fact, our founding fathers were big fans of European political theory. One of the things logic teach us is that you don't look to who said what, you look at what they said. That means if someone has a good idea, you should listen to it regardless of where they are from.
American politics was not founded in a vacuum on its own, without any influence from outside. And it shouldn't be viewed that way now. If there is a better idea somewhere, it should be embraced for the sake of the common good and its people.
onenerdykid
Active member
13448811:yeahmon said:
Why is it so?
In fact, our founding fathers were big fans of European political theory. One of the things logic teach us is that you don't look to who said what, you look at what they said. That means if someone has a good idea, you should listen to it regardless of where they are from.
American politics was not founded in a vacuum on its own, without any influence from outside. And it shouldn't be viewed that way now. If there is a better idea somewhere, it should be embraced for the sake of the common good and its people.
Charlie_Kelly
Active member
13448706:yeahmon said:
Just curious, how old are you?
Also, I find it funny you posted that quote, mainly because Reagan began the war on drugs, which in essence, is dictating what someone can do with their own body. Not to mention it is a ridiculous waste of money, our money. Prohibition doesn't work, history has proven that. By outlawing drugs you create a violent, illicit demand.
onenerdykid
Active member
13448836:yeahmon said:
Dude, you really do not know what you are talking about and are plainly just repeating the things that uninformed people around you have said.
I urge you to take proper political theory/science/philosophy classes where a trained professor will walk you through basic political ideology and give you selected texts to read. Because honestly, and I mean this in no way to disrespect you, but political theorists/philosophers were writing for a trained audience who was previously well versed in historical political thought. Reading Hobbes' Leviathan, Jean-Jacques Rousseau's Discourse on Politcal Economy & On the Social Contract, Locke's Second Treatise of Government, Aristotle's Politics, Marx's Das Capital, and any other primary source will just go right over your head.
Just like no one would suggest playing the piano without having a proper teacher, reading primary sources without a teacher or guide isn't the best way to learn. But you definitely should, as it will at least give you the proper basis for your opinions.
Charlie_Kelly
Active member
13448844:yeahmon said:
I figured. You seem quite niave, which is fine you are young and haven't experienced much of the world. I'd bet your parents are conservative too and influence what politcal views you have. But you seem to want to learn, which is also good. My advice would be to educate yourself on both sides. Read about communisn, read about socialism, and read about capitalism and learn the differences. Like it or not capitalism is failing this country, like mentioned, creating a growing wealth gap in this country. When you start paying your own insurance, your own expenses in general your views will certainly change. But its cool you want to learn and I cant give you shit for that
S.J.W
Active member
13448844:yeahmon said:
no offence kid, but you're 16. You don't know shit about politics, world views or anything. You're just rehashing whatever your parents views are (probably). You're not even old enough to vote. Wait until you have real world experience before you make up your mind on whether you're left or right wing.
yeahmon
Member
13448848:Granite_State said:
My parents are both quite moderate, but on the matter of capatilism it is not failing our country Obama crazy taxing, as well as the affordable care act are failing our country, our problem is not in capatilism it's self, our problem is we are trying to move away from a true capatilism, another problem is in big corporations who can lobby for laws and tax cuts that are in the best interest of the company, I still very much believe capatilism is a wonderful idea when it is not mixed with the government
Funkadelic
Active member
13448836:yeahmon said:
In America the government already tells you what school you can go to. Under privatised health care the insurance company tells you what doctors you can and cannot see based on what doctors are in network. Unless you want an out of network plan which costs way more.
I have in-network health care with Cigna through my employer. I can't go to any doctor I please. I can only go to doctors within the Cigna network.
Charlie_Kelly
Active member
13448854:yeahmon said:
Capitalism is failing. You cant blame Obama for the state the economy, or atleast not fully. Bush gave tax breaks to the upperclass, putting more financial strain on the middleclass, that hurt the economy more than anything Obama did. Bush passed legislature that led to the housing crash of 09, which put us into a recession. Bush invaded Iraq and afghanistan increasing the national debt substantially. Plus corporations are largelly unregulated. The list goes on and on. Atleast under Obama unemployment was cut in half, sure most of that is from an abundance of low paying jobs but still.
And before I get accused of it, no I am not a fan of Obama.
I tried to be nice to you but your ignorance is on full display. Be careful, there are plenty of kids far more knowledable on here that will light you up on shit like this.