Drill here. Drill now. Pay Less.

Should we also get into the North American public transit issues and the reasons it doesn't exist en mass like it should (Hint: it also has to do with dirty oil company politics)?
 
A few things here...

First, let me just say that I'm all for developing alternative fuels and minimizing consumption by walking or riding bikes or using public transportation. I think one of the best things we can do for the environment is to develop an efficient rail system and I'm all for it.

However, a system like they have in Europe can't really work here for a couple reasons. Mainly, there are HUGE areas of vast, empty space in the US - our population density cannot compare to Europe's and population density is essential for a viable, efficient passenger railroad system. That's why there's a number of cities with successful train/bus/etc. systems, but on a city-to-city basis it doesn't work so well. Second, Europeans pay much much higher taxes than we do - taxes that support public transportation systems. They're not getting it for free, they're just not paying it at the ticket window. I'm sure that's one reason gas is so expensive over there - it's the taxes that make it $8 a gallon, they're not paying any more for the gas itself.

 
Ryno credited with the goal, Assisted by Grubix.

Mag-levs run by electricty. Coal, Natural Gas, Nuclear all produce more electricity than Oil. Dare we say Mag-levs could partially run by solar power?
 
i see your point and this is where we are fundamentally different. you dont think it will work and i do, thats what it all boils down 2 i guess. also, you would be surprised how quickly we could get the oil out of there or anywhere else for that matter. given the chance to accomplish great things America will overcome any obstacles and it always will.
 
Thats been the whole point of this thread...you're just realizing this now?

Myself, along with a bunch of others, have been trying to say that it won't work and we are proving some base to our POV. Your side has just posted extremely biased sites as 'sources' (ex. www.anwr.org, does an oil company really count as a credible source?) and really provided nothing in the way of opinion other then, 'yeah this is the solution.'

So again, the offer is out there to debate this if you guys decide to actually get into the meat and potatoes of the topic and avoid the single-sourced "yeah this is the solution" statements. Otherwise I think it stands that the website/petition in question is total garbage and that there is no logical reason to drill in ANWR, or any other new oil feild for that matter (I'm willing to extend my opinion here to all new oil developments, not just ANWR).
 
4D

And what's the impetus for developing alternative energy sources if gas prices go back down?As soon as gas prices went down after the last oil shortage 30 years ago, Americans instantly forgot all about alternative energy and efficiency and became a nation obsessed with their SUVs. Why do you think it will be anyway different this time?Yes America is completely dependent on oil. The only, and let me stress that again, ONLY way to break that is to bite the bullet now and let capitalism naturally push us towards a future independent of oil.

Maybe people should realize that oil doesn't last forever, but what you really don't understand is that we've been dependent on oil since way back when - you can't expect to change over so fast. Besides, if we didn't use oil anymore then EVERYONE would have to adapt in the blink of an eye. Not everyone I know can afford to go out and buy a new car.

This isn't really any different from the 70s. I'm not going to deny that.

Ryanvdonk

60ft yacht? please, you dont even have enough money to move out of your parents house. and i solved your homework, i jerk off everyday, no oil used or needed.

If I had a 60ft yacht I don't think I would be living where I am right now. You don't need to bring that to NSG, so PM me.
 
well, no matter how much we debate WE are not going to change anything. i foresee both happening (both drilling and alternative fuels) because in all reality (dont argue this cuz there is no reason too) the world runs on oil and will for some time. dont worry cuz Alternative energy is going to take a long time to fully dominate the market. the world is a stubborn place and it will come around when the time is right.

oh, btw: why does our side always get the bad rap about everything or why are our sources not creditable and yours are? both sides are biased, thats how life works. that really pisses me off.
 
Call my sources bogus...I dont care. I'm going to call out your though because your using oil company website stats...thats weak jams.
 
ive actually never posted anything from an oil website, or any other right winged site. but if i did, it is still researched information whether you like it or not and both sides blow their information out of proportion. i dont really copy and paste anything. i argue on this site based on my own information, experiences and education in the matter.
 
Nobody knows the FULL extent. If I did I don't think I would be here. But our country relys on oil. You can't change over to alternatives in a snap because it would way more expensive than drilling. Yes, we really need to start switching over to alternatives, but right now no alternatives that are out look promising. Another truth is that we are too dependent on foreign oil.
 
I know alternatives are being created. Yes, I believe that some will be more efficient than fucking grain alcohol, but for the moment a large majority of them suck at life.

It's not just about finding alternatives. You think it's so easy to switch over. It's not.
 
No, I believe it's there, but I have yet to actually see it in action. I'm one of those "you have to see it to believe it" type people. They SAY it's there, but I haven't seen it.

Ryno, I'm on 56k.
 
You need to spend the time downloading it then to watch it. There is proof out there and its in this documentary.
 
How about we don't drill anywhere else cus it is a process that devastates the environment.

How about we just accept alternate energy sources.

Why don't we create a petition to get rid of the bullshit law that says cars made in thtis country CANNOT get better then 60mpg?

 
Devaste the environment in a barren land...

Accept that it will take a long time to actually use them.

I'm all for it. I hate that my trucks get 15 mpg. My truck doesn't need to be a V8. Why don't they just have it so you can switch your vehicles from an 8cyl to a 4? Honda has it right.
 
Why, because you use more fuel if they dont! Oil companies have the largest monopoly in the world.

You NEED to see that documentary...you would not blindly support oil companies if you knew how bad they are fucking you in the ass.
 
I've looked over every link you've posted and I knew all that shit before. Thats what blind people believe.

If you think documentaries and the media are the same thing, why are you so hesitant to watch one considering you eat up everything else the media gives you?
 
Try not to act like you left your maturity in middle school and dissect

a declarative statement based ambiguities. I'm SURE he meant he's going to ride

a bike "no matter how far it is". And he's definitely taking his bike

to go shopping for the month's groceries too. Hell why not take a nice

bike trip Florida for that summer vacation. The point is that perhaps

it might be good to take a 20 minute bike ride to your friends house.

If you start doing little things, it really adds up over the long run.

But ya know what, I think this kid has something here.

2 of America's biggest Problems:

- High oil costs

- Large percentage of the population is obese.

Bike

riding could seriously revolutionize our country. Lowing the cost of

transportation and shrinking your fat ass all at the same time. Look at

lance armstrong. He has the most efficient cardiovascular system in

the world. And what sport does he partake in... Cycling.

Not to mention that body fat stores are relatively close in chemical potential energy to fossil fuels.

Body Fat - 39.0 MJ/Kg

Gasoline - 45.5 MJ/Kg
 
StartFragmentFirst of all I would like tostart by apologizing. It was disrespectful of me to say you were stupid.Everyone is entitled to his or her opinion. However your assumption that I don’tknow the full extent of the situation is presumptuous. 1.) Six winters ago I took atrip from my home in Fairbanks, Alaska up North to explore parts of thenational wildlife refuge. I covered over 300 miles in a little over a week,traveling entirely by dogsled. I was exploring the area with a friend and herfather and I just want to say that despite -40 degree temperatures I wouldhardly call what I saw and experienced first hand as a “barren landscape.” Ihate to invite you to my state but come take a look yourself before you blindlyaccept pictures that are manipulative and biased towards certain agendas. Afterall you’re a “see it to believe it type person.” 2.) Check your sources. I looked at the information on the sites youprovided, Anwr.org and all other links such as American solutions, and foundthe tiny print that showed Frontier Communications was 100% financially backedand responsible to Arctic Power. Although Arctic Power is non-profit they hadto pay Frontier Communications to create and maintain the site and Arctic Poweris run by a board of notoriously conservative Alaskan politicians and specialinterest groups such as (and this is the only credible thing I found on yoursite) and I quote “Interest groups represented on the Arctic Power board andthrough its membership (aka the financial bakers) are:Alaska Support Industry AllianceAlaska State Chamber of CommerceResource Development CouncilAlaska Trucking AssociationAlaska Oil & Gas AssociationAnchorage Chamber of CommerceAlaska Miner's AssociationAlaska Forest Association.Just take a close look at whom drilling benefits and who supports it.P.S. my dad is the State of Alaska Forester and knows of no suchassociation that encourages oil development in ANWR related to the ForestAssociation including the government funded Bureau of Land Management. 3.) Just making sure you knowthe oil wouldn’t start flowing for at least 5 maybe even 10 years. That’s notthe immediate relief you seem to think opening ANWR would instigate. 4.) You say “right now noalternatives that are out look promising.” Maybe the big oil executives underyour so-called capitalist system just don’t want to compromise their income andmonopoly on energy consumption in the U.S. 5.) You say, “Maybe peopleshould realize that oil doesn’t last forever.” So, I ask, why deplete everylast remaining resource, adding more pollution to the world and only postponingthe inevitable fact that “oil doesn’t last forever.” 6.) I understand that oilhugely “affects everything economically.” I wish you could apply this samecomprehension to the fact that even a small disturbance to an ecosystem affectseverything within that ecosystem. That was long. But I feel ithad to be said.EndFragment
 
i actually watched the documentary last night. it actually was pretty good and unlike most biased films, i didnt think this one was to pushy. it was more of an informative documentary.

i actually had no idea those cars even existed in the 1990s so thanks for telling us about this movie.

having said that im sure oil companies had some "oil money incentives" to take the cars off the market but i dont think it was that big of a deal. coming from a business standpoint, you could have made alot more money making the cars (on a huge scale, especially being the first car company to do so), than taking bribes from oil companies. like the guy said in the movie, "GM would sell you a car that ran off of pig shit if it would sell."

also, the movie didnt say that those cars were pretty much subsitidized (sp?) by GM and that the true cost would have been too expensive for a typical family to purchase.

coming from a business standpoint i can see why they pulled the plug. but i hear that GM is making that new electric car, the VOLT which earlier in june, announced that it should hit showroom floors in 2010, better, larger and lighter than the EV1.
 
Every new technology is expensive. Do you think the first computers were cheap? or the first cell phone?

New tech is pricey because of all the R&D invloved, thats a given. Once GM set up the infrastructure to produce these en masse , the pricey would drop significantly. Then again, thats the risk you run being on the cutting edge of tech, it could have made them a lot or it could have lost them a lot. I dont disagree that GM dropped the ball huge with this but what about texaco holding the battery patent thus preventing GM from fixing one of, if not the biggest issue with the EV1's, the battery? What if that battery was avaible for Gm to use, do you think that would have changed there minds?

 
Yes, despite some other issues, like how it wouldnt have survived in cold weather states, or that it was only a 2 person that would fit most of the average people but would not have helped truck lines or big machinery, ships and things of that nature.

dont get me wrong, im kinda agreeing with you that it was a mistake to take them off the production line but we still need the oil for commercial and industrial vehicles.
 
But if they got all those single commuters (which most city driving is) off gas and onto electric, think about how much less fuel we would have used between now and then and how much lower the price would be today. I realize we need fuel for certian vehicles but this would have been a huuuuge step in the right direction.
 
exactly! new technology is expensive..... and when electric cars were being researched (early 90s correct? ) , gas was 1 dollar a gallon! 4 times less than what it is today... now tell me........ who would have bought electric cars that were more expensive, and inferior, to gas powered cars...

from a business standpoint why would GM want to make an electric car that no one would want to buy, when you could fill a huge truck for 25 dollars? it makes no sense, now with gas getting close to 4.25$ a gallon, electric cars are looking more inviting, so guess what? GM is selling a hybrid Tahoe....and ever noticed that Priuses are really popular? well around here they are,

between working 40 hours a week, and baseball 5 nights a week, i will do my best to make time to watch "who killed the electric car"..... and i will be sure to let everyone know what i thought after seeing it...

 
I have yet to watch the documentary yet, and I'm am going to respond back to Pandora (but not right this minute because I have stuff to do).

Anywho...

Justin, my engine is bigger than yours. Whatchu got in that Mal-ee-boo? A bubble machine?

Everyone back in the day wanted a fuel efficient car. It's very true, oil companies and car manufacturers work together on this shit. You know what's really said though is that the Hybrid Tahoe is only getting 21. It should be getting at least 30.

Oh, and Prius' have to be a massive bitch in snow.
 
I'm sure they're no worse than any other front wheel drive car, or even better because of the less powerful engine.

If you live on a major snowbelt, sure a car like the Prius is not a good choice. You need something with a wide tire base and all wheel drive or 4 wheel drive.

But for the 70% of the population that lives in areas that receive moderate to no snow at all. A prius and some snow tires should do you just fine.

Like I said before. It's all about driving what you need. Honestly, do half the people who drive SUVs really need to drive SUVs? Could they get to work, go shopping, take the kids to soccer practive just as easy driving a honda civic or chevy cobalt? Or even if they need a little bigger, a sedan? I think so.

 
I am sorry also.

1.) Why don't you all get together and make a website? Or show me a website that supports saving ANWR.

2.) Again, whenever I go to research ANWR and drilling that's pretty much the only "official" website that I see. But I find it hard to believe that that the media and high powered people (senate and house leaders) I talk to and listen to are giving me a completely different story.

3.) Thanks to Clinton we could have already been drilling in ANWR, but I have heard that we have already done a little bit of drilling there.

4.) Well, exactly. Gas prices are not going to go down anytime soon and alternative fuels are going to be a while, but we can't just end the whole oil thing in an instant. It's like why can't the stupid armadillos evolve faster so they don't jump up in the air and proceed to get killed when I'm driving? Evolution takes time.

5.) Like I said, we can't just stop using oil. We need to stop depending on foreign oil.

6.) How come with the pipe line that's already up there has made the Caribou population double in size? Or is that just a myth?

Again, I appreciated everything you had to say, but I can't just change my mind over what you say. I need more information.
 
i had alot written out for you but then i accidently closed it and lost it all so you are going to have to look around on your own, its not that hard, i just googled it.
http://www.arcticwildlife.org/home.htm
dont forget to check out the "other sites" page

http://www.defenders.org/programs_and_policy/habitat_conservation/federal_lands/national_wildlife_refuges
/threats/arctic/index.php

this is a link that answers your caribou question (do you really think that oil development somehow makes caribou start shooting out babies?)

http://www.defenders.org/resources/publications/programs_and_policy/habitat_conservation/federal_lands/arctic/caribou_in_the_arctic_national_wildlife_refuge.pd

 
haha.

and i haven't been around so i don't know what the big debates have been about, is it just whether or not we should seek gas solutions on our own turf, or are we specifically talking about ANWR.

I don't think we should drill in ANWR :(
 
this was my fav,

"To lower gasoline prices and reduce our dependence on foreign oil, we need real solutions to our energy challenges. "
 
Actually, they're not. My neighbor has one, and we live in Saranac Lake, NY. We get a decent amount of snow, and her Prius handles fine. Plus, our town is lazy as fuck and never plows the road, but she still hasn't gotten stuck yet.
 
Drew, I've been talking about it since the beginning.

If we don't drill in ANWR then we need to drill the hell out of the Gulf. We NEED to decrease and/or end our dependency on foreign oil. You guys think that alternative fuels are coming tomorrow and that everyone can afford to change over. You have to understand that these things take time. I'm not disagreeing that we need alternative fuels - I'm all for it. You have to understand that gas prices are so high because we are bidding for fuel against other countries (Indian, China, etc), and we aren't even paying the highest.
 
One of the points we're trying to make is that we need the high prices of gas to force the changover to cleaner solutions.

We know electric cars wont be on the road tomorrow and all gas engines will be gone. We're not stupid. Realistically though we need to phase out the unessecary use of gas engines as fast as we can and the only way that seems to work is by raising gas prices (which causes the market to looks for cheaper alternatives).

Slightly lowering gas prices will only delay the enevitable and new drill sites will only give the oil companies more time to bend us over and fuck us...
 
Congress doesn't give a shit. They can't even pass a credit check.

Sorry, but oil companies aren't doing this to us. It's just business and we are bidding for oil.
 
You're right, I've been mislead this whole time thinking oil companies were bad when all along all they want is the best for us. Fuck profits, fuck shareholders, oil companies are there for us the people and they always have been! Thats how the global market works right? It works for the people instead of for the money?

Wrong. You prove again how dim you truely are and little you actually know about this 'market' you always seem to be speaking of so highly.

 
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