Does it matter if God exists?

STOP THIS IS NOT A THEOLOGICA DEBATE FORUM, THIS IS A FORUM FOR RETARDS AND PEOPLE WHO HAVE THE COMMON SENSE OF A LABRADOR RETRIEVER.
 
>implying any thread on any forum on the internet involving discussion about God/religion doesn't always deteriorate into a multi-page shitstorm.
 
Not really. Is it hard to believe people can actually discuss shit and not just yell at each other telling one another how wrong they are?
 
Having a logical discussion with someone who believes (strongly) in the existence of God is not possible.
 
I used to be an atheist. I now believe in God verrryy strongly. Seeing as how I have logical discussions with people from time to time, i think you're just a stubborn idiot. You just have to understand that people don't believe exactly what you do. I don't try to convert people. I just have my views and if someone wants to know them then ill tell them.
 
I'm quite certain that in order to believe in any major religion's god/god's, you have to be lacking in some basic logic and reasoning skills.

Im curious as to what made you convert from being an atheist to believing in god 'verrryy strongly.'
 
no God would have reason to punish an honest man, who does good, simply because he does not conform to a religion and it's practices.
 
Holding your own belief system is fine, but when you make decisions based on misinformation, even if it comes to logical conclusion, still is not a good decision.
 
not to be a bible defender of any kind but 5 years of catholic HS requires me to say:

i'd just like to point out that this particular passage you have chosen to quote is Paul's letter to the Corinthians and as a male living in that period of time it is not surprising that his views and opinions on women are not of equality. So bear in mind that this isn't God telling women that they are inferior, its just a man, therefore saying "he seems like a dick" based on these quotes makes no sense.

Also remember that the Bible was written not by God but by people who are obviously imperfect so expecting everything they say to be eternally 100% correct is ridiculous.

I think the nit-picky attitude makes people miss the point, religion has always been something to explain the unexplainable, make one feel better about their lives, the unknown and the purpose of their lives and most importantly give moral guidelines on how to live one's life. I don't see what the big deal is, who cares if God is a dude in white with a sweet beard or a fucking flying spaghetti monster if believing in that stuff makes you feel better about yourself and help you live a good and happy life what difference does it make?

/pleasecontinueuselessshitshowtheologicaldebate
 
this is why i made my thread about why these arguments need to stop. the athiests are insulting theists intelligence, calling them "blinded by religion," and making a mockery of something thats extremely important to someone else. the theists are rushing to the defense of their religion and it just gives the athiests that much more to make fun of. nobody is going to change anyones minds, so cant we just respect each other?
 
I believe in Harry Potter. Even though us mere mortals have never seen him, I know he's out there somewhere protecting us from Voldemort.
 
Because every now and then, a teenager enters into these conversations full of misinformation, and he/she can gain a lot by listening to the more intelligent members debate things like this. Learning the context in which the Bible was written is one of the things the Church does not teach, and is seriously detrimental to one's faith knowing that the bible was written by over 9000 people over the course of 300 years. We DO help people with these threads.
 
To me, there is no stronger evidence for the existence of God as I see Him than the rampant anger and bitterness of an atheist.

They have absolutely nothing to gain AT ALL from converting me to atheism. I don't push my beliefs on anybody. I will defend them when people attack other Christians and call them fools and idiots (as has happened extensively in this thread). But I am hurting nobody with what I believe. In fact, I help people regularly. I give to my church, which in turn gives to the poor and needy through charitable organizations. I mentor and hang out with junior high kids 4-6 hours EVERY week, and I occasionally visit a third world country to help improve their standard of living and assist them with basic needs.

From a strictly objective standpoint, regardless of religious connotation, I am trying to make the world a better place, but atheists devote hours of their time to attempting to destroy something that makes me happy, and that, if I am wrong, which I'm not, will not affect my eternal soul (or lack thereof) in the least.

And yet, they are the ones in the off-topic forums, on CNN, on the interwebz, everywhere constantly proselytizing. It makes NO sense AT ALL.

It's descarte's wager. If they are right, and there is no God, nobody loses anything of significance. If I am right, and there is a God, I, and anyone who agrees with me, gains infinitely, so why should they care?

If anyone in this thread has a genuine interest about that question, read Romans 8:7, and then PM me. The hostility of the unredeemed human towards God's law and His people is predicted everywhere, in spite of the fact that most of us are pretty much normal, well adjusted people by the account of those who actually know us outside of NS.

What you see is the unrepentant and angry spirit lashing out against the guilt and condemnation that they subconsciously know exists.
 
*Pascal's wager.

And you lose all the time you've wasted worshipping a god that doesn't exist/lack of sex/masturbation etc. Also, its not really a 50/50 chance that you're right... more like 1/1000000 given all the Gods there have been throughout history.
 
Point to you sir. Pascal. And no. Your probabilities are pretty far off, considering that there are very few religions with the enduring power of Christianity.

Maybe 1/5, maybe 1/10. But when you consider that lots of those other religions believe in reincarnation and/or polytheism which allows for belief in God and Christ, I'd knock it down to at least 1/2 or 1/3.

And who cares if I "lose" that stuff? I am still quite happy because I believe that I'm doing the right thing. At least my "fairy tale" gives my life meaning and purpose. I spent last weekend hanging out and having fun with 6-8 grade kids who nobody bothers to love or acknowledge as a general rule in the name of Jesus. They had great fun, enjoyed themselves, and learned that there really are cool people in their 20's who enjoy spending time with them.

What has your lack of religion done to make the world a better place this week?
 
You're saying I believe in God because I'm misinformed? If that's what your getting at then go fuck yourself.

If that's not a perfect example of an "I'm right your wrong" mentality then i don't know what is.

I think you're the misinformed one. Show me one piece of quality evidence that shows that God does not exist. and saying "Why would he let the Holocaust happen?" Doesn't really count. So yeah. You can't say shit. So fuck off, and ill go believe in what I want to believe in and you can believe what you want. Until we find out the truth (WHICH WE NEVER WILL UNTIL WE DIE), any persons view is valid.

 
Sorry for dub post but I had to respond.

To your first statement. You have it backwards. Basic logic tells us that things can not be created out of nothing. Basic logic would say that at the beginning of everything. someone or something created what we come to know as the universe. I don't understand how basic the idea of "The universe is here just because it is" is.

To your second question. I grew up my entire young and early teenage life as a christian, eating up the christian life my parents threw at me. I went to private schools and learned pretty much everything there is to know about the Catholic Church. Hitting high school was a big change for me. The school I went to stressed the importance of other religions and really allowed us to make our own decisions (it was a private school). After being put through private schools and hearing all this stuff is didn't seem believable at all. I didn't believe any of the bible, but thought it was just a book for guidance. I got nothing out of church and never felt God's presence in my life. That is what started my disbelief in a deity.

Once I hit college I started to have some sense in myself and realized that it makes logical sense that something created all of us. I did a whole lot of service and found it very rewarding. A lot of times some of my friends and I would just chill and talk about deep philosophical stuff like religion and the universe. We all came to the belief that there is a God out there, but try to stay away from the grasps of the many church's.

 
SEE! There is your problem. Believing in GOD does not automatically make you a Christian. I believe in GOD! NOT the catholic church. Get your facts straight. I'm no fan of the church and all it does.
 
Seems reasonable enough.

To your first point: It isn't necessarily logical to suggest that a God must have created the universe. As Arabian has brought up earlier, there are plenty of theories out there that attempt to explain the existence of our universe.

Suggesting that "something can't come from nothing" isn't much of an argument. If that is the case, where did God come from? (and saying that God made himself or "always was" isn't much of an argument either.

The fact of the matter is that nobody right now has any idea how all of this started (as in, what was before our unvierse)... we are just incapable of understanding that. So to assertain that God must have done it because we don't know how else it could have happened is poor logic and isn't much of an argument at all.

Even if there was a higher power that started it all, which there very well may be, that doesn't mean that said higher power has anything to do with the bible, or cares about anyone on earth, is omnipotent, omni-present, all-good etc. etc.
 
I agree with a lot you're saying.

You're right. Nobody knows how this started. Having someone create it, is just another theory. A theory that seems to be a lot more popular than others. That's just one I believe. For me, Thats where my belief stops.

I believe he has nothing to do with the bible, or has any say on what goes on on this earth. Religion was made not by God, but by people coming together with similar beliefs and opinions. It's unfortunate that these people felt the need to fight other religions and tell others to follow them or they'll be "punished."

My belief is that a high being created the universe. That's it. And I think that this belief itself holds just as much validity as someone saying there is no God. If I brought up the church...well... no we have another discussion.
 
"the relgion" has not created any problems for "us" It has created problems for the people who have different opinions on it, and that has nothing to do with the argument. Thats a stupid question because different religions who believe in differnt 'gods" are what make the problem.

And secondly God does broadcast to those who listen, you're just too full of yourself and y our atheism to listen to him. When you witness miracles it really brings you closer to faith.

Obviously Jesus' miracles are a little exagerated, but if you read the bible many of the prophecies in it have come true, and that is why i believe it.

 
the re-establishment

of Israel as a nation in it's ancient homeland. That a nation could be

completely destroyed as an organized entity by an invading army (by the

Romans in 70 AD), it’s people either slaughtered or scattered from one

end of the world to the other, it’s lands occupied and ruled by aliens

for over 1900 years. Yet Israel survived as a distinct nationality, and

then finally regained its homeland and became recognized as a viable

nation once more by the other nations of the world. (1/191)

Just one of many prophecies fulfilled - looks good to me.

A messiah can't return until a third temple is rebuilt. they have recently begun plans to rebuild a third temple.
 
The exact location and construction sequence of Jerusalem's

nine suburbs was predicted by Jeremiah about 2600 years ago. He

referred to the time of this building project as "the last days,"

that is, the time period of Israel's second rebirth as a nation in

the land of Palestine

(Jeremiah 31:38-40).

This rebirth became history in 1948, and the construction of the nine

suburbs has gone forward precisely in the locations and in the

sequence predicted.

(Probability of chance fulfillment=1 in 10^18.)

The prophet Moses foretold (with some additions by Jeremiah

and Jesus) that the ancient Jewish nation would be conquered twice

and that the people would be carried off as slaves each time,

first by the Babylonians (for a period of 70 years), and then by a

fourth world kingdom (which we know as Rome). The second

conqueror, Moses said, would take the Jews captive in ships,

selling them or giving them away as slaves to all parts of the

world. Both of these predictions were fulfilled to the letter, the

first in 607 B.C. and the second in 70 A.D. God's spokesmen said,

further, that the Jews would remain scattered throughout the

entire world for many generations, but without becoming

assimilated by the peoples of other nations, and that the Jews

would one day return to the land of Palestine to re-establish for

a second time their nation

(Deuteronomy 29),

(Isaiah 11:11-13),

(Jeremiah 25:11),

(Hosea 3:4-5),

(Luke 21:23-24).

This prophetic statement sweeps across 3500 years of history to its complete

fulfillment--in our lifetime
 
Not really a prophecy unless you give an exact date for something to happen.

Its pretty easy to be vague and say something will happen without actually given precise information. (example: nostradamus).
 
copypasta'd:

"A prophecy is a prediction about what will happen in the future,

inspired by God or some supernatural force. It is probably the best way

that God could be proven. However, there are some qualifications that a

prediction must meet before we can decide it is the work of the

supernatural. These qualifications are:

1) The prophecy must be

proven to have been spoken before it was fulfilled. This is a major

problem with Old Testament Prophecy. To prove that the prophecy wasn't

written after the fact, one must find the earliest copy we have of a

prophecy and carbon date it. That date must be sometime before the

prophesied event occured. The Book of Daniel runs into this problem, as

all evidence suggests it was written long after its alleged

"predictions".

2) The prophecy must be specific. No vague,

Nostradamus Style prophecy. The Book of Revelation runs into exactly

this problem. The prophecies are so vague that they can have easily have

many different "fulfillments". For instance, who is the beast of

Revelation 13 (whose number is 666)? Some Fundamentalist Christians

insist that it is the pope; Catholics believe it was Caesar Nero; and

yet a few conpiracy theorists argue that it is Ronald Reagan! These

symbloic prophecies are meaningless because they can be interpreted to

fulfill anything that happens.

3) The prophecy must be of

something that was not forseeable. For instance, a lot of people

predicted the collapse of the Soviet Union, because they saw that it was

a very unstable government. Yet we do not think of them as prophets. A

prophecy must be something that few/none would have predicted when it

was made.

The sad truth for Christians is that I have yet to find

a prophecy that fulfills these three requirements. Even worse for them,

the bible contains prophecies that were not fulfilled. Ezekiel 26

predicts that Nebudchadnezzar would destroy Tyre and make it "as a bare

rock". Best of all, biblical scholars are in agreemnt that this book was

written hundreds of years before Tyre was destroyed. Yet we know from

history that it was Alexander the Great, not Nebudchadnezzar, who

destroyed Tyre. Isaiah 19:5 predicts that the Nile River would dry up.

And yet it never has. Now, some people may say that that prophecy is yet

to come, but remember: These prophecies were about the people at that

time."
 
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/prophecy

So now not only are you the sole arbiter of what is good and right for God to do, but you're also the authority on what prophecy is and isn't?

You sir, are a perfect example of egocentrism. It is clear that absolutely nothing is objective to you. Everything is subjective to your whims and what you want. The definition of language, the origins of the universe, all of it.

The real issue is that the only problem you have with the idea of there being a God is that if that's true, you are accountable to someone besides yourself for what you do.
 
Oh shut up. You know what i mean.

I could say that i predict there will be a war between Pakistan and India or between Iran and Israel and when it happens say i am a divine prophet. Its not hard to make claims like that... especially when you give no timeframe for the event etc.

The problem i have with the idea of the Judeo-Christian God existing is that he sounds like a massive cunt... and the idea of an eternal afterlife sounds absolutely terrible.
 
And where exactly did this definition of a prophecy come from?

I am guessing one of your own sources which would, of course, define something in such a way as to eliminate any and all Biblical prophecies from consideration?

Because that's not an ignorant way to play the game at all.

I have noticed that one of Atheists' favorite games to play is with words.

Let's play some word games.

God exists. Now the "positive claim of proof" is on the Christian.

"The theory of evolution is correct."

Now the "positive claim of proof" is on the Atheist.

Prove to me beyond a shadow of a doubt that the universe evolved from nothing.

Start with a sterile, clean lab environment, as many and as much of all the elements of the periodic table as you like, reasonable conditions in terms of temp, humidity, oxygen content, etc, and create a single-celled organism.
 
The theory of evolution has overwhelming evidence backing it up, so i think the burden of proof is covered there.

You clearly don't understand that the theory of evolution only explains the diversity of life on earth. Nothing more... not how life began, not how the universe began, not how planets form etc.

If you would like to learn more about the formation of the solar system, try reading some of these articles (i know you have a problem with wikipedia, but i'm sure you're capable of clicking on the sources at the bottom of the page for further reading.)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Formation_and_evolution_of_the_Solar_System
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_formation
 
you didn't even read the shit that I wrote. it's pretty hard to predict something like that 2000 years before it happens with the precisity of where and how it's going to happen.

What you fail to realize is that Nostradamus had thousands of predictions of which only 1 or maybe a couple became true. People fail to realize that. he's just famous for his 1 lucky prediction. The bible has over 800 fulfilled prophecies thus far.

Although I'm sure you'de say some bullshit like " you can't prove that they wrote that before it happened" (as you've already said) well if you read the entire bible as I have, the pieces fit together pretty perfectly. You can tell from context and authors that they really did predict that the Israelites would be taken as slaves by the babolonians in umpteen B.C.

But I can't preach to someone who believes in nothing... so i'm done.

 
LOL do I?

I have absolutely no idea at all what you mean. A prophecy can be any prediction of the future, no matter how complicated or simple.

And while we are at it, there are PLENTY of specific prophecies about Jesus which are reported to have come true.

The time of His birth was predicted.

The place of his birth was predicted.

It was predicted that no bone in his body would be broken. And if you know anything about crucifixion, you know that this was unusual, and it is written that the legs of those to His left and right were broken.

It was predicted that he would die with wicked people, but be buried in a place befitting the rich.

The problem is that you are used to dealing with people who will engage in your nitpicking because they don't know any better.

The fact is that most of your objections to God, in addition to being fallacies, are mostly academic. I am willing to wager that you have never been personally persecuted in any significant way. You have probably never experienced anything truly evil, much less at the hands of the Church, which has admittedly been responsible for lots of atrocities in the past. (I defy you to find a place in the Bible which condones them. You can't.)

You enjoy a life of comfort and ease, thanks, in no small part, to the sacrifices of great Christian people who founded this nation on the principles of Christian religious freedom.

You simply object to the idea because you like making your own rules and not being responsible for your actions.
 
If I have a problem with Wikipedia, why would you refer me there? Why not post the academic references directly?

So now we're backpedaling and saying that evolution only explains the diversity of life on earth. Ok fine.

Which theory would you like to put forth for the BEGINNING? How did the very first, single celled prokaryotes form? Show me. Show me where a laboratory has successfully, from elemental materials and any combination of radiation, temperature, moisture, and whatever else, created even a single prokaryote.

It hasn't happened.
 
That is a ridiculous statement if I've ever seen one.

You are accountable to Him because He created you, and regardless of whether or not you agree with His laws, He is still the ultimate authority in the universe.

You may not believe in the illegality of weed, but are you going to get off if you get caught by standing in front of the judge and saying "I don't believe that weed should be illegal?"

Try again.
 
Of those 10 or 15 failures there have been 800 successes. and those are very controversial... because for a long time Damascus was a ruinous heap.

and for example, in the end times this one will be fuld....

Isaiah 52:1 Awake, awake; put on thy strength, O Zion; put on thy beautiful garments, O Jerusalem, the holy city: for henceforth there shall no more come into thee the uncircumcised and the unclean.

There are uncircumcised people living in Jerusalem even today.

The entire Bible is filled with prophecies... and these are very debatable because many of the prophecies are meant for end times which havenot yet happened.
 
That is another perfect example of egocentrism.

The universe is now defined by what you believe in?

A thousand years ago, people thought that matter was composed of earth, water, air, and fire. Does that mean that since our theories of the composition of matter have changed, that the composition of matter has in fact changed?

That is absolutely ridiculous. You have digressed to defining the universe not as what it actually is, but as what you want it to be.

You, in your own mind, are the sole definer of what is real, what is true, and what is correct.

Now who is crazy?
 
http://www.iscid.org/encyclopedia/Abiogenesis

I don't think abiogensis has been completely proven like evolution has, however, it is a widely accepted theory amongst the scientific community.

Regardless of abiogensis potentially being false, this doesn't mean that God must have created life. just because we dont have a complete scientific theory explaining something doesn't mean the answer is god. In the same sense that we didn't know what caused rain/volcanoes/the sun rising etc. But science has since come to explain all of these phenomenon that were once attributed to the work of a divine being.
 
zacman is saying that just because you think something doesn't make it true.... Because in your prior post thats what you basically said... We all read it.
 
Evolution has been completely proven?

And you sit here and tell me that the things I say are retarded.

Completely proven implies the creation of a single single cell and its evolution al the way to humanity and everything in between.

That hasn't happened, nor will it ever. And yes, I'm aware that this process would take "billions and billions" of years to prove. You haven't even successfully synthesized step 1 - eukaryote to prokaryote.

The very fact that you would even say this demonstrates your complete and total lack of understanding of the science which you hold in such high regard.

Evolution is nothing more than another "well substantiated" theory which continues to change and be updated as scientists find new evidence to support or disprove it.

You clearly do not understand the progression of science, or you would never have made such a sweeping generalization in the first place.

How old are you and what is your academic background anyway?

 
i dont think you can be 99% athiest. you either believe in god or you dont. or you're agnostic meaning you dont deny the possibility of a god.
 
Now you are making a really poor attempt at backpedaling.

Quoted from you, 3(ish) posts up

"It's all perception, I don't believe in him, therefore he doesn't exist, period."

You are saying that objective reality is what YOU believe. To extend your argument to practical terms, if you stop believing in apples, they should disappear from the face of the earth.

You above defined reality as what you believe. Now you have backpedaled to defining reality as what you perceive. Even this is illogical.

Science has proven the existence of neutrinos. They are one of the most prolific subatomic particles in existence. Assuming that this sentence took you a minute to read, 3000 trillion of them went through your body while you were reading it.

You don't perceive their existence, nor are you conscious of them being there. Does this change the fact that they exist? No.

Your arguments are built on the proposition that reality is solely by your experiences, and that therefore, the universe is a function of what you believe.

That is much more ludicrous than my belief system if you ask me.

 
Wow. But you think you can change my mind because you have a book that was written in much smaller quantities, a much shorter time ago?

I am referring to the origins of species in case you missed it.

And no, there is nothing egocentric about believing what we do because we have and believe in a book which continues to be proven accurate by historical findings and archaeology.

Your statements above are egocentric. You have said twice now that the universe is composed entirely of that which an individual sees and believes in.

And by the way, if that is the case, then why are there properties of the universe which are objective? Long before babies learn about or understand gravity, it affects them profoundly. By your reasoning, this should not be the case. The same could be said of hundreds of other phenomena ranging from physics to criminal law.

The world which you would LIKE to live in is called the matrix sir. It is an excellent movie with two rather poorly written and produced sequels. I think you can find it in the action section of your local blockbuster.
 
I take back "completely proven" if you want to look at it that way. Obviously we haven't witnessed a single celled organism evolve into an elephant or whatever... but we still know that the process of evolution happens. There is absolutely no debate within the scientific community about whether or not life on earth evolved. Stop pretending like its a controversial idea.

The point is that there is no reason to envoke the existence of a higher being to explain any phenomenon in the universe. Simply because we don't have a complete understanding of something does not mean that God is the answer.

As i have said before, people didn't understand how natural disasters occured, or the water cycle, photosynthesis, planet formation etc. etc. We know how that shit happened now, and its pretty likely that we will figure out how life on earth began.

We have already created a synthetic cell in a labratory.
 
You're still imposing your own criteria on the world and attempting to define reality as what you want it to be.

While we're at it, let's define some objective criteria for what a nice person is.

A nice person

1. Treats others' beliefs with respect, regardless of whether or not the believe in them.

2. Refrains from the use of profanity or personal insults

3. Admits when they have been caught in a logical fallacy.

By those 3 (fairly) objective criteria, you are not a nice person and I am. You have been proven to have an illogical and egocentric viewpoint, and so now you're upset and you're insulting me and calling me an asshole. I'm going to guess that next, you'll either:

A. Stop posting here.

B. Find some more of your friends and try to gang up on me.

You most certainly did define reality as what you believe in. The existence or non-existence of a creator is pretty much ultimate reality. Positive proof in either direction would define absolutely everything that everyone in every time and every place does. You said:

"I don't believe in him, so he doesn't exist. Period."

Now I'm guessing that you're running out of straw men, unscientific sources, and half truths to put forth to demonstrate the lack of a God in the universe, but if you've got some more, I'll be happy to continue to debate with you about those too.
 
To clarify: Claiming that "something can't come from nothing" is proof that God must have made the universe. (Obviously ignoring the fact that something must have made God).
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top