DEBATE 10/15/08

You know you love 'em.... poll numbers! According to all network polls, including the one restricted to uncommitted votes, it was Obama / Biden 4, McCain / Palin 0. A sweep of the debates for the Democratic side.



CBS Poll of Uncommitted Voters


Who won the debate?

Obama - 53%

Tie - 24%

McCain - 22%

Impact on Vote

Still Uncommitted - 58%

Now Committed to Obama - 28%

Now Committed to McCain - 14%

Would Raise Your Taxes (Before Debate / After Debate)

McCain - 56% / 48%

Obama - 68% / 63%

Would Make the Right Decisions on Health Care (Before / After)

McCain - 27% / 30%

Obama - 61% / 69%

Does The Candidate Share Your Values (Before / After)

McCain - 53% / 56%

Obama - 54% / 63%

Fox News' Focus Groups under Frank Luntz showed a clear majority in favour of Obama winning the debate. No one thought McCain won.

CNN / Opinion Research Flash Poll

Who did the best job in the debate?

Obama - 58%

McCain - 31%

Favourable / Unfavourable Ratings (Before / After)

McCain - 51 to 45 / 49 to 49

Obama - 63 to 35 / 66 to 33
 
By the way, I think those poll numbers are exactly what I expected though I don't agree it was anywhere near as one-sided. If you want to lose a debate in the public opinion, do what McCain did: be condescending, angry, and uncivil, and roll your eyes when the other guy is talking. He was basically being an asshole instead of just being aggressive.
 
More CNN numbers

Among Independent Voters, on Who Won the Debate

Obama - 57

McCain - 31

Who would do a better job on the economy?

Obama - 59

McCain - 35

Who would do a better job on taxes?

Obama - 56

McCain - 41

Who would do a better job on health care?

Obama - 62

McCain - 31

Who more clearly expressed his views?

Obama - 66

McCain - 25

Who was the Stronger Leader?

Obama - 59

McCain - 36

Who was more likeable?

Obama - 70

McCain - 22

Who spent more time attacking his opponent?

McCain - 80

Obama - 7

Who seemed like a typical politician?

McCain - 54

Obama - 35

Among Women

Obama - 62

McCain - 28

Among Men

Obama - 54

McCain - 35

As always, more Dems watched the debate than republicans, swaying the polls somewhat*

Percentage of Debate Watchers with Party Alignments

Democratic - 40

Republican - 30

Independent - 30

*The CBS poll earlier and the number at the top of this post included only independent or uncommitted voters.

 
the last thing we need in the white house is a socialist. I work on capitol hill, and am a political science major at the most politically active university in the country. Try to make a valid point as to why we should suddenly become Venezuela...
 
Because Obama has soooo much international experience. He said he wants to "sit down" with middle eastern countries and conduct peace talks with them... what makes him think that he will be able to do that? He never has before, and they've been fighting for 2,000 years! and look up the definition of diplomat my friend, hes a junior senator.
 
I dunno if you know this guy Joe Biden, but my guess is Obama chose him as a running mate for a reason, perhaps he has some sort of foreign relations experience, some sort of qualifications that'd be useful in this circumstance. Does that sound pretty logical to you?
 
before he announced Biden as his VP he said he would sit down with Middle East countries b/c he was a diplomat.

Diplomat- one employed or skilled in diplomacy.

Diplomacy-the art and practice of conducting negotiations between nations.

I'm not going to say that Biden doesn't have a huge foriegn policy experience, he does. Its the fact that Obama is arrogant enough to say he can solve conflicts within the middle east himself. he contradicts himself in saying we should practice isolationism at the same time.
 
wow thanks for putting everything in my mind in words !

politics, presidents, government, 95% of america, this country, this world is a complete JOKE!
 
I'm truely afraid of what will happen to me and my family if obama gets elected. please someone re-assure me. like seriously. My grandpop opened a small auto repair shop in 1960 that has been passed down to my dad and grown along the way. We now have two shifts, a 10 bay garage with over 10 employees (with health benefits), and thousands of customers. My family makes over 250,000 per year. so what did we do again to be the bad people that are going to get taxed? please obamarama fans re-assure me because i really am not thinking mccain can pull this one out..
 
ThiTaxation is a fundamentally immoral and very flawed policy.

Here are some things to think about: The following is from Wikipedia:

"Tariffs were the largest source of federal revenue from the 1790s to the eve of World War I"

Income tax

See also: Income tax in the United States#Legal history

The history of income taxation in the United States began in the

19th century with the imposition of income taxes to fund war efforts.

However, the constitutionality of income taxation was widely held in

doubt until 1913 with the ratification of the 16th Amendment.

[edit] Legal foundations

Article I, Section 8, Clause 1 of the United States Constitution assigns Congress

the power to impose "Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises," but Article

I, Section 8 requires that, "Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be

uniform throughout the United States."[12]

In addition, the Constitution specifically limited Congress' ability

to impose direct taxes, by requiring it to distribute direct taxes in

proportion to each state's census population. It was thought that head taxes and property taxes

(slaves could be taxed as either or both) were likely to be abused, and

that they bore no relation to the activities in which the federal

government had a legitimate interest. The fourth clause of section 9

therefore specifies that, "No Capitation, or other direct, Tax shall be

laid, unless in Proportion to the Census or enumeration herein before

directed to be taken."

Taxation was also the subject of Federalist No. 33 penned secretly by the Federalist Alexander Hamilton under the pseudonym Publius.

In it, he explains that the wording of the "Necessary and Proper"

clause should serve as guidelines for the legislation of laws regarding

taxation. The legislative branch is to be the judge, but any abuse of

those powers of judging can be overturned by the people, whether as

states or as a larger group.

The courts have generally held that direct taxes are limited to

taxes on people (variously called "capitation", "poll tax" or "head

tax") and property[13]. All other taxes are commonly referred to as "indirect taxes," because they tax an event, rather than a person or property per se.[14]

What seemed to be a straightforward limitation on the power of the

legislature based on the subject of the tax proved inexact and unclear

when applied to an income tax, which can be arguably viewed either as a

direct or an indirect tax.

[edit] Pre-16th Amendment

In order to help pay for its war effort in the American Civil War, the United States government imposed its first personal income tax, on August 5, 1861, as part of the Revenue Act of 1861 (3% of all incomes over US $800; rescinded in 1872). Congress also enacted the Revenue Act of 1862,

which levied a 3% tax on incomes above $600, rising to 5% for incomes

above $10,000. Rates were raised in 1864. This income tax was repealed

in 1872, but a new income tax statute was enacted as part of the 1894

Tariff Act.[15]

At that time, the United States Constitution

specified that Congress could impose a "direct" tax only if the law

apportioned that tax among the states according to each state's census population.[16]

In 1895, the United States Supreme Court ruled, in Pollock v. Farmers' Loan & Trust Co., that taxes on rents from real estate, on interest income from personal property and other income from personal property (which includes dividend

income) were direct taxes on property and therefore had to be

apportioned. Since apportionment of income taxes is impractical, the Pollock

rulings had the effect of prohibiting a federal tax on income from

property. Due to the political difficulties of taxing individual wages

without taxing income from property, a federal income tax was

impractical from the time of the Pollock decision until the time of ratification of the Sixteenth Amendment (below).

[edit] 16th Amendment





Amendment XVI in the National Archives

Main article: Sixteenth Amendment to the United States Constitution

In response to the Supreme Court decision in the Pollock case, Congress proposed the Sixteenth Amendment, which was ratified in 1913,[17] and which states:

The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes on incomes,

from whatever source derived, without apportionment among the several

States, and without regard to any census or enumeration.

The Supreme Court in Brushaber v. Union Pacific Railroad, 240 U.S. 1 (1916),

indicated that the Sixteenth Amendment did not expand the federal

government's existing power to tax income (meaning profit or gain from

any source) but rather removed the possibility of classifying an income

tax as a direct tax on the basis of the source of the income. The

Amendment removed the need for the income tax on interest, dividends

and rents to be apportioned among the states on the basis of

population. Income taxes are required, however, to abide by the law of

geographical uniformity.





A comedic representation by Clifford K. Berryman of the debate to introduce a sales tax in the United States in 1933 and end the income tax

Congress enacted an income tax in October 1913 as part of the Revenue Act of 1913,

levying a 1% tax on net personal incomes above $3,000, with a 6% surtax

on incomes above $500,000. By 1918, the top rate of the income tax was

increased to 77% (on income over $1,000,000) to finance World War I.

The top marginal tax rate was reduced to 58% in 1922, to 25% in 1925

and finally to 24% in 1929. In 1932 the top marginal tax rate was

increased to 63% during the Great Depression

and steadily increased, reaching 94% (on all income over $200,000) in

1945. Top marginal tax rates stayed near or above 90% until 1964 when

the top marginal tax rate was lowered to 70%. The top marginal tax rate

was lowered to 50% in 1982 and eventually to 28% in 1988. During World

War II, Congress introduced payroll withholding and quarterly tax

payments.

[edit] Development of the modern income tax

At first the income tax was incrementally expanded by the Congress of the United States.

Inflation automatically raised many persons into tax brackets formerly

reserved for the wealthy until Congress began adjusting the income tax

brackets for inflation. Income tax now applies to almost ⅔ of the

population [1].

The lowest earning workers, especially those with dependents, pay no

income taxes as a group and actually get a small subsidy from the

federal government because of child credits and the Earned Income Tax Credit.

The federal government is now financed primarily by personal and corporate income taxes. While the government was originally funded via tariffs

upon imported goods, tariffs now represent only a minor portion of

federal revenues. Non-tax fees are generated to recompense agencies for

services or to fill specific trust funds such as the fee placed upon airline tickets for airport expansion and air traffic control. Often the receipts intended to be placed in "trust" funds are used for other purposes, with the government posting an IOU ('I owe you') in the form of a federal bond or other accounting instrument, then spending the money on unrelated current expenditures.

Net long-term capital gains as well as certain types of qualified dividend income are taxed preferentially. The federal government collects several specific taxes in addition to the general income tax. Social Security and Medicare are large social support programs which are funded by taxes on personal earned income (see below).

[edit] Treatment of "income"

Tax statutes passed after the ratification of the Sixteenth

Amendment in 1913 are sometimes referred to as the "modern" tax

statutes. Hundreds of Congressional acts have been passed since 1913,

as well as several codifications (i.e., topical reorganizations) of the

statutes (see Codification).

The modern interpretation of the Sixteenth Amendment taxation power can be found in Commissioner v. Glenshaw Glass Co. 348 U.S. 426 (1955).

In that case, a taxpayer had received an award of punitive damages from

a competitor, and sought to avoid paying taxes on that award. The Court

observed that Congress, in imposing the income tax, had defined income

to include:

gains, profits, and income derived from salaries, wages, or

compensation for personal service . . . of whatever kind and in

whatever form paid, or from professions, vocations, trades, businesses,

commerce, or sales, or dealings in property, whether real or personal,

growing out of the ownership or use of or interest in such property;

also from interest, rent, dividends, securities, or the transaction of

any business carried on for gain or profit, or gains or profits and

income derived from any source whatever.[18]

The Court held that "this language was used by Congress to exert in

this field the full measure of its taxing power", id., and that "the

Court has given a liberal construction to this broad phraseology in

recognition of the intention of Congress to tax all gains except those

specifically exempted."[19]

The Court then enunciated what is now understood by Congress and the

Courts to be the definition of taxable income, "instances of undeniable

accessions to wealth, clearly realized, and over which the taxpayers

have complete dominion." Id. at 431. The defendant in that case

suggested that a 1954 rewording of the tax code had limited the income

that could be taxed, a position which the Court rejected, stating:

The definition of gross income has been simplified, but no effect

upon its present broad scope was intended. Certainly punitive damages

cannot reasonably be classified as gifts, nor do they come under any

other exemption provision in the Code. We would do violence to the

plain meaning of the statute and restrict a clear legislative attempt

to bring the taxing power to bear upon all receipts constitutionally

taxable were we to say that the payments in question here are not gross

income.[20]

In Conner v. United States[21],

a couple had lost their home to a fire, and had received compensation

for their loss from the insurance company, partly in the form of hotel

costs reimbursed. The court acknowledged the authority of the IRS to

assess taxes on all forms of payment, but did not permit taxation on

the compensation provided by the insurance company, because unlike a

wage or a sale of goods at a profit, this was not a gain. As the court

noted, "Congress has taxed income, not compensation".[22]

By contrast, at least two other Federal courts have indicated that

Congress may constitutionally tax an item as "income," regardless of

whether that item is in fact income. See Penn Mutual Indemnity Co. v. Commissioner[23] and Murphy v. Internal Revenue Serv.[24]

 
He is level headed and even tempered. He gives the other side a chance to say what they have to say. I'm not saying he has any international experience at all, but he is someone who would be good to represent us on an international level. Bush's diplomacy (which means the skill in handling affairs without raising hostility by the way) has made our foreign policy into a travesty. If you don't believe that, I'm sure there's plenty of kids on here from Canada or Europe that would be willing to back me up. Long and short is, we need someone who isn't trying to play the Hollywood role of president. We need someone who is going to take his job seriously, and have respect for his own country while extending that respect to the leaders and citizens of other countries.
 
i think he was talking about implementing health clubs as an employee benefit, and then rewarding those who go.
 
shit like this is so annoying. If these polls were accurate, it wouldn't be such a tight race.
 
^their hypothetical plans I just find so laughable. Seriously, it's like "no john, no...he wont have to pay a fine, because in the last debate, I realized that would make me look bad, so now I exempt small businesses...small businesses wont have to pay into the kitty..."
 
I don't really think anyone won last nights debates. I thought mccain was an asshole, and obama didn't make as effective of arguements as he has in the past.
 
i read the comments.

if the poll says its obama 60, mccain 40, then you know obama is between (57-63), and mccain is (37-43)...well if this changes to obama 62, mccain 38...those are still within the margin of error, but the margin of error scale changes. its now (59-65) and (35-41)....

so, although it's within the margin of error, it's still a change, right?
 
you could also read their article

i found it slightly hilarious how neither chose to elaborate on certain points.

for example, mccain said obama launched his political career in bill ayers' living room. obama replied "that it simply not true". mccain never refuted obama's statement, so did he accept obama's word as truth or simply started rambling on another tangent? and obama never clarified such as "ive never even been to bill ayers' house" or another wishywashy statement such as "i have been to bill ayers house, we did talk politics, but i launched my political career at blah-blah-my-house".

these debates should have lasted 5 hours and they should have been drinking. then eventually their politican-prepackaged-statements would have broken down, and their true feelings/ideas shown.
 
I said exactly the same thing. it should have been done over many games of beer pong.

I didn't play the drinking game because I was drinking increasingly-warming old e, and I just didn't want to take sips of that, could only chug it.
 
Back
Top