Climate Change Discussion

DERS.

DERS.

Active member
fuck you i dont care if this is a repost.. it is a worthy and necessary discussion.

i had a stupid insta-argument with a newschooler on the topic of fracking which to which they said i clearly no nothing about #bye... well not so fast. there was a thread recently https://www.newschoolers.com/ns/forums/readthread/thread_id/743750/ about divesting from fossil fuels and a video that went along with it, but most people wrote it off saying nope that is impossible. id like to discuss climate change on a larger scale as it is the single most important issue of our era, yet we, at least here in america, are too focused on the economy/unemployment, budget/debt crisis, health care, immigration, gun control, gay marriage, ect (not to undermine these issues, they are all extremely relevant and important!)... but, WAKE THE FUCK UP! You cant fight with mother nature, and this is a topic us skiers should be pretty concerned about. whether you believe in "global warming" or not, you cant argue the science behind climate change...

global sea levels are rising at an alarming rate, carbon dioxide levels are skyrocketing, severe weather including but not limited to floods and droughts are occurring at much more severe rates and frequencies. global sea levels have risen roughly 8in/200mm in the past 150 years, and are slated to rise roughly somewhere between 1/2-2 meters in the next 100 years. something like 25% of the world population lives at or just above sea level and could potentially be displaced within the next 100 years if this prediction holds true...

what is causing this? us humans clearly. i could post some facts, graphs, and the science behind it if anyone disagrees but i think most of you can agree with that we are the roots of our evolving climate... so what can we do about this? i really couldnt tell you, were in too deep.. but the answer to our "energy crisis" and rising fuel prices on the global market? fracking? are you fucking kidding me? yes it creates jobs and is 'good for the economy' but that is a temporary solution to a much larger problem. fracking is a dirty sub-division of a dirty industry that doesnt play by the rules because it is too big to fail and because there is too much money behind it to allow it to fail... now on to a slightly more bold statement, we need to divest from the burning of fossil fuels and turn towards an alternative source of energy. however thats easier said than done since there has been a significant effort to invest in messaging that denies the science and facts of this. the fossil fuel industry is arguably the biggest industry in the world, and doesnt want the population to think that it is the reason climate change is happening, rather it is a just naturally occurring cycle. bullshit... the oil and gas industry has a significant influence on politics. nothing new here its all about the $krilla. what else can we do besides talk about it?

personally i feel powerless and taking about it is the only thing i feel capable of doing. so lets discuss this. i know there are lots of you who will disagree with me on the subject, so id like to hear your thoughts on the matter.

tl;dr- fuck it we'll all be dead and it wont even matter.

 
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But really, it's an issue that is so far gone we're fucked without some major global policies. Until a president spends about 25-30% of his/her time in office focusing on climate change, nothing is going to change and when is a president EVER going to do that?
 
i agree and i dont like how people always cite these one or two % of scientists who dont believe that global warming is man made or that we are soooo small we cant hurt the globe.

ok, lets say that there is a 5% chance that global warming isnt caused by us, but wake the fuck up, have you seen that oil spill in nigeria? or all other oil spills all around the world? pollution from cars, industry and all that, polluted, dirty cities all over the world.

regardless of what you agree with, we should stop treating mother nature, and regardless of whether or not this post achieves anything, i at least have recognized the problem, in contrast to all these guys who just dont want short term jobs to go away because of THE most important, GLOBAL issue humanity is facing right now.

and there is the problem. its a global problem, so every nation can say "well, were not the ones at fault, go let someone else fix this". if you ever heard about public goods in microeconomy, you know that you need a "unselfish" agency of some kind (usually the government) in this case. we need a working top-level "government of the world". not that silly representative UN shit.

otherwise nothing will get done. AND OBVIOUSLY the biggest polluters, china, EU, USA have to be leading the charge. but so far, china and the US arent even acknowledging that we have a problem and simply focus on economy. i am not saying the EU is perfect, but they more and more try to evolve beyond a economic union.

and in general, fighting the destruction of nature is very expensive, yes, but its safe to say that noone can put a number on how expensive it will be to just keep on going.
 
hahahaha I saw this. I cant believe you even brought it up, there's absolutely no way you're going to convince them otherwise
 
In my opinion, it's not even an issue worth tackling at this point. There is no way to get the world off of fossil fuels right now. The only way to get us off of them is to run our reserves dry. However, there is a theory that the cycle moving warm water to the polar caps may stop as the world gets warmer. Always gives me hope. But climate change is here for sure, look at how screwy the seasons have been. I also know someone that sails a lot on a lake near me and says it's not the same because the winds aren't as predictable as they used to be.
 
^^no matter whats up with CO2 and oceans, isnt it self-explaining to stop reliance on fossil fuels? stop industrial and transport pollution? avoiding treating nature like its "ours"? who says our children arent as entitled to these fossil ressources as we are?

nothing to do with bandwagon jumping. we treat the world extremely bad
 
We're doing a unit on climate change right now in school so it's been on my mind quite a bit. I agree with feeling powerless because there's hardly anything I can do without other people's help. I'm not saying I'm a huge environmental advocate but I really were essentially fucked and there ain't much I or a few more people can do. The governments and the UN have to do something or the planet we know is not going to be habitable anymore.

I live in Canada and the government does some stuff about global warming and such but, I feel like it's going to get really bad and everyone will actually start to care, but I feel like it will be way too late.

So I'm kind of at an impasse where I have no clue what to do about it. Thought I'd share.
 
Threadjack but related.

Recently was told that the material we put into the recycling bins in Denver isn't really recycled. Basically, because people don't rinse the containers that they put into the bin, the recycled material produced is such low quality that they can't give it away. If everyone rinsed out the containers properly, the product would be better, but Denver is usually on water restrictions and you get fined for using too much water.

Also was told that the chemicals that they use in the recycling process are really nasty, cannot be recycled, and end up being disposed of in ways that may not be the most eco-friendly.

I am all in favor of recycling, but it sucks to think that we are all going through this exercise right now and that we are actually doing more harm than good.
 
^ I've heard that too.

Plastic is tricky as far as recycling. I hope that as technology improves companies can start moving towards using only biodegradable plastic. It'll still take a while to degrade, but it's better than what we're doing now. I think it's kind of disgusting how much plastic we use.

As far as the whole climate change deal, I do think it's amusing how many kids want the US to commit economic suicide in the name of reduced emissions. Any emissions we cut will make little difference, because the Chinese will keep burning coal until the planet runs out.

Natural gas causes low pollution for the amount of energy it produces and is the best viable option for energy we have moving into the future. I also am in favor of advancing nuclear technology (to cut down on nuclear waste and improve efficiency) in order to cut down on pollution.

But don't say that N-word around any environmentalists when it comes to climate change, they might just have a heart attack. You can't run a country on wind and solar power, sorry.

 
I also learned from an economist that works in the energy sector that renewable energy (at least in CA) actually doesn't really offset emissions at all. The variance in the energy production from wind turbines and solar panels messes with the grids, creating shortages that have to be made up for by coal burning power plants.
 
In a sense it can. The climate follows long term heating and cooling cycles, and we are approaching a warm peak, a ride which stated at the most recent ice age. So there is the sense that it regulates itself through a negative feedback cycle and oxygen isotopes locked up in glacial reserves. However, it is undeniable that human impact isn't a huge catalyst in this problem. Take a look at a graph that shows heating and cooling cycles. What, through most of earths history, was relatively consistent, is not significantly rising, right at the time that humans are creating more of an impact onthe environment. Now if all trace of human life and industry was suddenly erased, the earth would be able to balance out the carbon and oxygen cycles and replenish itself, however we have already made a significant impact and no matter what we do we cannot completely eliminate emissions, so the earth will never be able to return to its past heating and cooling cycles, at this point we are trying to fix out past impact and make our future impact less
 
The earth has been much hotter in the past than it is now so who cares if we are adding to it as long as there is no runaway effect. Global warming is for ignorant fucksticks
 
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WAKE THE FUCK UP. the evidence is there. no one in the science community is denying it (the people who actually study this) it is the "ignorant fuckstick" politicians who spew the bullshit their fossil fuel conglomerate funders provide them to combat the truth, and im sorry you believe in it.. but it is happening. and it is happening at an alarming rate. why is it a bigger issue than national debt? because if 1/4 of the world becomes refugees in the next 100 years due to rising sea levels that is a pretty fucking big deal. and even if my numbers are off, its not something of any insignificance to pass off and say yeah but theres bigger issues at hand to deal with. the time to act is now. "there is no plan b, because there is no planet b"
 
Nuclear is the straight up answer for the future. We have enough uranium on earth to power even the most fully developed human civilization for a billion years. Anybody who is a nuclear naysayer is an ignorant fuckstick. And as i said before. It doesnt matter that humans are warming the planet because it has been far far warmer in the past
 
Seriously, try to. The evidence is overwhelming against you and it is impossible to deny that human impact doesn't have a major impact on climate change
 
What i'm saying is people will watch the news and just repeat what they have heard. They really have no idea what is going on with the subject, hence the complexity.

If people learned actually how radiative forcing and the green house effect worked in detail they would stop blaming C02.

C02 is definitely a problem but that's by no means the main cause of everything. The atmosphere and the world are too damn hard to understand. Residence time of particulates and aerosols change with elevation and pressure. How a gas molecule reacts to incoming short wave radiation depends on composition, concentration, average diameter size, ect.

What I'm trying to say is climate change is definitely a problem but people have a much too simplified view of climate change. There is a lot going on and much of it depends regionally. Looking at averages, especially globally is never really a good indicator of anything.

 
I honestly don't see a point in NOT trying to fix some of the damage we've done when its already extremely obvious (to people who actually pay attention) what damage has been caused. Why are people so against it? People would rather not slightly change their lifestyle and just call it "bullshit" so they don't have to give a shit themselves

I agree with DERS. as skiers we should maybe care about weather or not a crap snow year like 2012 will end up being a new killer year.

If you haven't already seen All.I.Can, first off its SICK, the cinematography is amazing - you've proabably seen at least the JP segment, and secondly it points out some things skiers should at least pay attention to and care about. (like you kind of should already)

worth a watch.
http://www.powdermag.com/powder-awards/2012-movie-of-the-year-all-i-can/
 
Do you know what a weather cycle is?

Snow pack will actually do okay into warmer temps cause it will stay freezing at high altitudes but we will have more moister.
 
Kind of curious how they determine how much carbon you have emitted. I'm assuming you have to tell them how many miles you have put on your car per year. The make, model and year would have to be a factor. What do you have to provide for the to figure out your carbon emission.
 
so we should continue with polluting the whole world and blow CO2 up in the atmosphere?

yes it was warmer, thats why LIFE will prevail, maybe some glacier go away or the polar caps melt, but thats not a big problem in the big picture. its more a problem to those 2 million people living in big cities on the coast.

youre pretty ignorant.
 
nice.

you seem to know more about the climate specific thingy. but i like how you still want to cut emissions (=reducing reliance on fossil fuels).

i can live with that. i also know that, as with every other major thing over the last 20 years, media went totally overboard with the climate change thingy.

imo, the focus should be on preserving the world as it is, and a few degrees here and there (if it doesnt get so far to actually flood coastal areas) wont have really (big picture) huge effects. most forms of life will continue to exist in that scenario.

but most forms of life have problems with chemical waste, oil spills and all that stuff.

AND REDUCING THAT IS THE SINGLE MOST IMPORTANT FEATURE OF OUR LIVE. might as well call it climate change because most things that counter "global warming" should also reduce pollution.

 
I'm on mobile so I can't cite anything, but according to IPCC projections it will take less than "a few degrees" to flood coastal areas. As Chris said, those are models and may be inflated, but if my memory serves me correctly then a 2 degree C increase in global temperature has Miami under water. That could be off, it's just my recollection of the IPCC reports which I've had to study extensively.
 
Lol think about how vast the oceans are. It's due to thermal expansion. Glacial melting contributes virtually nothing to sea level rise (which is what everyone thinks about when they hear sea level rise). Increasing temperatures cause the molecules to hear up, move faster, and expand (thermal expansion), which ultimately accumulates and results in a few meters in sea level rise.
 
To be honest I wish I had come across this thread earlier. What's the point in arguing? The people who don't believe are going to continue living the way they do for however many years and then die, same as the people who do believe. It is out of our hands.

Arguing about whether climate change is real or not is absurd, its the same as not believing in the fact that when you kick a ball, it moves. It's fucking happening whether you 'believe' in it or not. I feel as though rather than arguing about the processes, people need to argue about the future, about what's going to be done. You need to consider what can be done by governments around the world, populations will follow in suit, because people are sheep.

Now, getting as many countries as you can together in one group, such as the Kyoto Protocol meetings, are pointless because it is impossible to get everyone on board. If you can't get everyone on board then you are fucked, especially when countries as powerful as the US are unwilling to do anything (not saying this hasn't changed in recent years - i do not follow the US political-climate debate - if there is one). So where do you go from there? Let everyone fend for themselves? Self preservation is a fuckery, as is corruption. Economic gain is the biggest factor in the climate debate, but so many countries can't afford to think 25, 50 years in advance and that's why so few want to commit to alternative energy sources.

Who fucking knows what to do? I've spent the last 4 years studying this shit and I'm lost. All I can say is: government grants, research and development, somehow we'll sort it out.

One last thing, however, as irritating as this may sound, we look at the climate crisis through such an anthropocentric lens, its fucking ridiculous. Regardless of the well being or even existence of the human population, the world will sort itself, it is not dependent, we are. In reality we need to look after ourselves. So, i suppose, the real question is - do we care whether or not future generations can ski? or do we say 'fuck it' and get on the lift ourselves?
 
Relying on the government to subsidize green companies is actually not a good idea. A few recent examples:

- Germany has given away $130-billion, mostly to solar-power companies. Yet solar power makes up a minuscule 0.3 per cent of German power supply, while doing almost nothing toward the original objective of reducing greenhouse gas emissions.

- Last September, California-based Solyndra LLC sought bankruptcy protection after receiving $535-million in loan guarantees to build a solar-panel factory. This month, Solar Trust of America filed for bankruptcy after failing to meet the terms a $2.1-billion loan guarantee to build what was to be the world’s largest solar-power generation plant.

- Spain has an unemployment rate of around 25% and they also went the green route and they failed.

There's way too many examples like the ones that I listed.

The government just can't pick winners and losers by subsidizing some company that has a good idea. Once these failed projects occur, all you get is higher electricity rates and more debt!

 
I think the woes of government subsidized renewable companies is well documented. I'm for sure no economist, but I think the best solution is to provide extreme tax incentives to green companies (or even to go as far as to remove their obligation to pay taxes all together), and increase taxes on the fossil fuel industry. That way the government isn't blindly throwing money away, and might even cause all of the greed involved in the fossil fuel industry to start building infrastructure for renewable industry. There are more potential jobs available in the renewable energy industry than in the fossil fuel industry. But what do I know, that's just my extremely humble opinion (with the exception of the fact that there are more jobs available in green industry if it took off, based on a study conducted by the Sierra Club). I'm certainly no economist, I just study the impact of global change on ecosystem dynamics. I'm definitely not educated on how to be fiscally responsible.
 
I'd be more concerned if we were going into an ice age, atleast there will still be food as temperatures rise. Yea we need to work to fix it, which I'm sure future technology will go along way towards helping our emissions with cars, planes, etc.
 
I'm not arguing with anyone or detracting anyones statement, but you need to take into account and think about how much of the information on climate change and oceanic levels is actual legitimate information. it's no secret that the govt and big corporations pay off scientists and researchers to release the information that they want to release. we have enough of each alternative energy source to pick one and master it. combine all of them and we can virtually run forever, yet then we're faced with the problem of natural climate change. we've been studying and analyzing for so long and yet not long enough. the facts and accepted theories today are based off of how long our recorded history goes back (and how much of said facts are indeed 'fact'), when the reality is on a million year scale we don't know or understand the cyclical nature of our planet. we can't even figure out where or what the mystery link in our DNA is, what makes us able to know everything about the planet which harbored us? just my two cents, i don't claim to know anything and everything about the subject so hopefully no one takes it that way.
 
Well I can tell you that I'm one of those scientists studying climate change and helping publish papers on the subject and no big corporation or government agency has offered to stick money in my pocket... Nor have any colleagues that I know received such an offering. Can you supply any sources for this apparently obviously known fact? Because I'd definitely like to jump on that bandwagon.

I have seen stories reported of scientists funded by the fossil fuel industry as being the ones denying anthropogenic climate change. However, my lab and all labs I know similar to mine are scrapping and clawing to get any kind of funding- especially with all of the cuts to science currently going on in the federal government. My lab has been funded by NASA, and NASA recently came to us and said we have to give them money BACK because of budget cuts. And there is certainly no one telling us what kinds of results we can and cannot publish.
 
Sorry, didn't mean to sound like a douche, it just really annoys me when I hear that. There's no conspiracy going on from this end; I can assure you.
 
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