Can we stop giving Tanner Hall FWT wildcards?
- Thread starter hank.ski
- Start date
SteezyYeeter
Active member
tanner hall probably misgendered someone and now hank is really pissed
cydwhit
Active member
14485627:hank.ski said:You can just say you don't know how fwt ranking works
I mean, this is sorta indicative of the problem haha! Like, I don't know how FWT ranking works, and I'm a nerd. Shit, I follow World Cup DH and XC religiously, and can tell you who qualified and who didn't, and who's in contention for the overall, and why, but I can't tell you anything about FWT other than that Andrew Pollard makes cool art, and Hank Bilous is fun to watch. Maybe I need to get really into FWT this winter?
This thread has really been on my mind, thanks for starting this conversation!
hank.ski
Active member
Oh I was actually wrong about this. Event Wildcard holders get fwq rank, not fwt. Sorry for being condescending. I'm still inclined to want another person in that spot, Tanner just hasn't really brought much spectacle outside of being Tanner Hall, and that's kind of a boring story to me.
14485730:CT_CREW said:
CT_CREW
Member
14484899:cyphers said:
Disagree. What was the last run that won a comp without some freestyle thrown in? I love seeing sick licks thrown on big faces, but sometimes they are rewarding "freestyle moves" too much...like someone does five shitty looking 3's in a scrubby run, and gets a big score. the tricks gotta be large and styled, or unique and smooth etc., not just thrown into a run as a way to check the freestyle element box.
hank.ski
Active member
True. I actually looked it up bc I was wrong, and they changed the rule a while back.
I typed out some of my other thoughts for event transformation in a rush the other day, but what I really meant to get at is that the Tour is trying to preserve a format that's disingenuous to how people like to watch skiing. A lot of other competitions have tried and fell short too. I think Natural Selection is pretty much the only one that nails it. I think that some small adjustments could freshen up the tour, but what I would really like to see is more freeride competitions period. There are virtually zero major Open freeride competitions for skiers outside of IFSA. And I think that if there were, and people could get engaged at both the local level and through the X Games/Red Bull-type media machines, it would make the whole discipline more interesting. One thing I do think is that Freeride grows when it is represented at the local level. Everyone has seen some pro riding hero lines in Japan or Alaska, and I think that freeride could use some of the diy energy that saved(?) park skiing
**This post was edited on Dec 1st 2022 at 10:51:43am
I typed out some of my other thoughts for event transformation in a rush the other day, but what I really meant to get at is that the Tour is trying to preserve a format that's disingenuous to how people like to watch skiing. A lot of other competitions have tried and fell short too. I think Natural Selection is pretty much the only one that nails it. I think that some small adjustments could freshen up the tour, but what I would really like to see is more freeride competitions period. There are virtually zero major Open freeride competitions for skiers outside of IFSA. And I think that if there were, and people could get engaged at both the local level and through the X Games/Red Bull-type media machines, it would make the whole discipline more interesting. One thing I do think is that Freeride grows when it is represented at the local level. Everyone has seen some pro riding hero lines in Japan or Alaska, and I think that freeride could use some of the diy energy that saved(?) park skiing
14485722:cydwhit said:
**This post was edited on Dec 1st 2022 at 10:51:43am
CT_CREW
Member
14485740:hank.ski said:
no worries dog (I do actually watch both FWQ and FWT)...I get your point of view, its cool to see unknown talent get a chance to throwdown. Also I would understand the angst more, if it was a whole season wildcard...I was also bummed that T skipped out on Verbier last time.
Still gotta disagree overall though...The excitement of the Tanner wildcard comes from "Can this older, crazy, pioneer/legend of the sport throw down something BANANAS against a field of young bucks who's talent and Psycho level has gone through the roof since T's prime days.
Anybody catch Verbier 19 Snowboard finals? The conditions were shit/scary AF, every Snowboard competitor took the option of the less consequential lower start, with lack luster runs for the most part....UNTIL 54 YEAR OLD WILDCARD STEVE KLASSEN drops from the top and fucking shows up the whole field!!!
P.S. he didn't win due to a but check, and you would have to watch the whole comp to comprehend what he did, or actually be able to understand how fucking scary/consequential it would be to ride that face in marginal conditions (or in any conditions)
https://www.tetongravity.com/story/snowboard/video-54-year-old-snowboarder-sends-it-at-fwt-verbier
CT_CREW
Member
14485722:cydwhit said:
Dude, its the same thing as Biking or whatever, you just don't follow it. You gets points for doing good in FWQ events, then you qualify. You get points for doing good in actual tour events in order to podium overall and/or re-qualify for next year.
every once in a while they throw someone they deem deserving, for whatever reason, a bone with a whole SEASON wildcard. This person is just like all the other pre qualified athletes, and is in contention for podiums and such.
They give out EVENT wildcards at most tour stops. A lot of times local legends, or local young talent get these cards. Sometimes they give them to OG legends, or whoever the fuck they want to....These riders can win the EVENT for nothing other than clout, and being the BEST DAMN SKIER ON THE MOUNTAIN. no point s no qualifying etc.
CT_CREW
Member
14485750:hank.ski said:
I agree with you that some shit needs changed, and more freeride comps in general/emphasis on local comps would be real nice. Maybe someway to qualify without having to travel around to all the Major FWQ stops. Thats where undiscovered talent can shine, and move upwards.
but your rant on T hall/OG riders not getting to compete on a big stage is whack. They put in the work already dawg. In your line of thought, what are all these OG snowboarders doing in natural selection? We've seen T.Rice, Torstien, GiGi, McMorris, Rasman, Kostenburg, and others on the bigstage for years. Should they be tossed out, for nothing but new talent?
Oh wait, The OG's invented Natural Selection...Hmm weird
I still find it downright ridiculous that Tanner Hall is still even able
to compete seeing as he hit the scene before I was in High School, and
here I am complaining about my 35 year old creaky knees and waning interests lol.
to compete seeing as he hit the scene before I was in High School, and
here I am complaining about my 35 year old creaky knees and waning interests lol.
hank.ski
Active member
You're tacking a whole point onto the end of mine. My issue on selection choice is with Tanner Hall specifically, not every proven rider out there. Specifically because he performed kinda mediocre on his tour years, and chose to undermine the tour by bailing on the bec. I'm not complaining about the Victor de le Rue spot.
14485814:CT_CREW said:
cyphers
Active member
14485743:CT_CREW said:
it’s literally built into the judging. scores for the 4 other categories (including style/energy) can only exceed the line score by a set amount. the exposure of the line you ski determines how many points you can get for the tricks you throw. guys still (and often) win with freestyle skills but that’s in spite of the judging structure
CT_CREW
Member
14485829:hank.ski said:
fair enough I guess, seemed like you where salty about older legends getting a spot over undiscovered talent, but you're right you didnt directly say that..
however T only competed one year, got a second place finish, and qualified for verbier. He undeniably has a small, but fighting chance to podium/have a banger run, and it is interesting to watch the old vs new dynamic. (yes it was a bummer he dipped on Verbier, and thats probly a big reason he did not get a season wild card, although I doubt he would want it)
Your Thread/Argument seems like it should read..."I personally do not like Tanner Hall, and it makes me mad he got an FWT event wildcard, but im going to use other reasons to justify my discontent, thoughts?"
fuck I need to quit wasting time on here and go skiing, im fucking up...See yall in January after the comp! haha one of us is going to look like a dildo (shit I already do posting a million times). PEACE.
CT_CREW
Member
14485842:cyphers said:
Frick im still here wasting time.
It is a big mountain freeride competition. You cant just reward riders for a pussy line with lots of freestyle. You are supposed to amplify a baddass line with freestyle.
That being said, I wasnt talking about the rulebook. Im talking about actual events i've watched...
for example (sorry I dont have actual names/event without rewatching the last 5 years). One dude skis what I think is a dope line... fast and fluid the whole way, one big steezy 3 in a spot on the face that makes the 3 even cooler. The next dude comes in and skis the same basic line choice on the face, he skis it slower and less smooth, but throws in like four or more 360's (some of which are small, and dont look stylish). He loses a few points on speed/fluidity but the judges max out the freestyle points because he did a high number of tricks, and he outscores the other dude. IMO the one big, fast, steezy 3 should score better freestyle than four mediocre threes.
I do feel like this problem is getting better as the novelty of doing tricks on a face wears off. I think some of the judges who never did much freestyle used to reward any type of shitty looking trick on the face, because riders just didnt used to do it much, and it was like holy shit he did a three up there. Then new age athletes who can three and backflip with their eyes closed came and did multiple ( maybe mediocre) tricks in a run, and the judges went nuts...But now it is seeming like the judges are understanding the new level of freestyle skill these riders have, and they are critiquing size of air and style more, not just rewarding any type of rotation as an amazing freestyle element.
Also If anybody actually cares to read for themselves... https://www.freerideworldtour.com/about-judging
JUDGING
Five criteria and “the overall impression” are taken into account to determine the riders’ final score:
Difficulty of the Line
But let’s look at each category a little closer. Difficulty of line is pretty straightforward: it’s all about the path a competitor chooses to take down the mountain. What’s the danger factor like on his line? How does the rider link up the tricky passages along the way? How unique, imaginative, is her route compared to other riders? Is it a cool line? Does it tickle people’s imagination? That’s what the judges have to determine here.
Control
Control is key in big-mountain riding. Possess it and your golden. Lose it and you can die. That’s why the judges can be ruthless with those who don’t show enough of it during their competition run. Did the athlete fall? Did he run the ragged edge of recovery all the way down? Or did he ride like he knew exactly what he was doing from start to finish? Often times, this is the category where neophytes struggle.
Fluidity
Nobody likes watching stop-and-go action. And the Fluidity mark is all about rewarding those athletes who can ride from start to finish with no hesitation, no stoppage and no confusion. Did the rider have to embark on a long traverse to hit his landmark cliff? Did he get lost on the way down and have to climb to regain his line? Did she hesitate before dropping the big cliff? This is what the judges are looking for in this sector. Again – flow is what it’s all about.
Jumps
For many in the sport, the next category, Jumps, is what makes freeride competitions so exciting. Why? Because nothing is man-made – what you see is what you get. But like any other aerial sport, style and aggression play huge. How big was the jump? How did the rider enter the jump? What happened in the air? How well did he stick his landing? Was it like a cat thrown out of a speeding car? Or did they know exactly where they were at all times? This is what the judges need to assess before assigning their overall mark.
Technique
Technique is a criteria which will be looked at closely in the Junior or amateur competitions. For Pros, judges will ask themselves if a control issue occured because of a lack of technique but otherwise, if a rider is in control, he can have his own technique and won’t be penalized. One can lose points however when side slipping down a section where other fellow competitiors were carving turns. This would fall under the Technique criteria.
==> To evaluate the run, judges use a point system of a hundred increments from 0 to 100. The goal of this rider-approved system is to have a unified judging system for all FWT, Qualifiers and Juniors competitions that allows every style of riding the possibility to win. If a competitor is riding in a part of the face that cannot be seen by judges, what he does (good or bad) will not be scored unless judges have live video feed showing the action.
==> Judges are fully certified and supervised by a head judge. They are using an evolving method and there will always be a human factor left which could lead to different interpretations of the run. This is part of freeriding as a sport and has to be accepted by riders as well as judges.
https://www.freerideworldtour.com/sites/default/files/2022_judging_handbook.pdf
2. JUDGING SYSTEM
2.1.Overall Impression
In the past, we tried to have scores for each criteria (Line, Fluidity, Control, Air&Style and Technique).
Points were added together to make a final score.
A problem occurred: one criteria would take too much value because it is easier to use the full scale on
jumps than it is for control, fluidity or line. It made it difficult for someone riding steep and fast but with
hardly any jumps to score well.
Criteria are linked together. Splitting these elements is more confusing than convenient. To make up his
mind, a judge has to ask himself at all times how fast, how big and how in control a rider is compared to
how steep, how exposed and in what snow conditions the action is. A split criteria structured mind is
key to good overall impression judging.
I dont think he deserves another wildcard after dipping out on the Verbier Xtreme to "film in montana".
dude nobody gives a shit about a fucking backcountry powder edit im sorry, the Bec des Rosses is a living breathing titan of fear and pain and throwing down at the verbier xtreme is way more interesting and cooler than some shitty sled laps in montana.
dude nobody gives a shit about a fucking backcountry powder edit im sorry, the Bec des Rosses is a living breathing titan of fear and pain and throwing down at the verbier xtreme is way more interesting and cooler than some shitty sled laps in montana.
3mania
Active member
It appears they just gave a spot to Justine Dufour Lapoint who has never done a FWT or any big mountain contest before. She's a certified bad ass mogul champion and gold medalist, but i'm not sure how familiar she is with big lines, i guess we'll see. Is it ok to give Justine a spot, or are we just hating on Tanner Hall. If she can handle those icy ass Quebec moguls, I'll bet she'll do just fine . it'll be a challenge even for a tough girl like Justine but mogul skiers are more prepared for this kind of thing than most.
BigPurpleSkiSuit
Active member
14487804:hank.ski said:
agree 100%.
Film.
Active member
14485740:hank.ski said:
You’re right, the 7 time x-games gold medalist, pioneer of freesking, and co founder of Armada is a “boring story.”
FWT is an individuals contest, Tanner being on there isn’t “holding back a team” like you would be if you put him on an Olympic team.
Shit man if you get your FWT spot taken by a 39 year, you should prolly ski better.
Film.
Active member
14485740:hank.ski said:
You’re right, the 7 time x-games gold medalist, pioneer of freesking, and co founder of Armada is a “boring story.”
FWT is an individuals contest, Tanner being on there isn’t “holding back a team” like you would be if you put him on an Olympic team.
Shit man if you get your FWT spot taken by a 39 year, you should prolly ski better.
snomaster
Active member
14487886:skierman said:
Ha! Freeskiing’s revolution was dominated by moguls skiers: Tanner, Candide, New Canadian Air Force, and even McKonkey won on the Bud Tour. The Freeride Tours have a similar history from Henrik Winstead to Ben Wheeler and so many more.
We can ignore your nordic comments here.
skierman sucks at moguls
hank.ski
Active member
It isn't holding back a team, but it is taking up a spot where another rider could be. I already said upthread, I'm well aware of Tanner's legacy and impact on skiing. I just don't think he skis well enough or has enough heart for freeride competitions to get the automatic invite. There are lots of people who ski better, and I think that's more interesting than your accolades in this particular format. And again, there is a whole other legitimate way that Tanner could compete...he would just have to qualify like the other 90% of the field.
14487834:Film. said:
BradFiAusNzCoCa
Active member
Did you see ex-mogul Olympian Justine Dufour-LaPointe got a wildcard?
AngryGramps
Member
Kind of a hot take. Tanner is there to provide a measuring stick. Event wildcards are not for up-and-comers they are for people who dont have time/finance/motivation to go through the traditional quali process. I know people who have been on tour (claim) that got bumped and never bothered to try requalifying because it is such a process. Basically, before they changed it this season it took an entire year of owning up on the local scene to be given the opportunity to spend 10K of your own money to go compete in FWT. lots of my homies went on tour in the past few years, and most of them who didn't requalify just like got jobs...getting big names or locals in skiing that generate buzz, viewership and legitimacy for the tour is nearly impossible w/o wildcards.
Tanner might be mildly burnt to some here, but to most of the world he is an 11-time x-games medalist. That headline alone is great for the overall health of the tour, even if he doesn't do that well (which, TBH I'm not sure is even true, he has gotten some podiums and put down some dope runs). It is only one stop, and having a person we have heard of on it does a lot of good for somebody like Issac Freeland when he's trying to find a check to make another season work.
If they gave Candide a wildcard, nobody would question it in this way.
Tanner might be mildly burnt to some here, but to most of the world he is an 11-time x-games medalist. That headline alone is great for the overall health of the tour, even if he doesn't do that well (which, TBH I'm not sure is even true, he has gotten some podiums and put down some dope runs). It is only one stop, and having a person we have heard of on it does a lot of good for somebody like Issac Freeland when he's trying to find a check to make another season work.
If they gave Candide a wildcard, nobody would question it in this way.
AngryGramps
Member
14487984:snomaster said:
....literally 10 years ago. Different world, completely. I, of course, know that CT won it, I'm saying that today, in 2022/23 if they gave him a wildcard nobody would be upset that he was taking that spot from a young gun.
SWRTOFFICIAL
Active member
14487804:hank.ski said:
very valid take. I know a couple people who grew up on moguls and it really teaches you to be so quick on ur feet with ur skis and react fast to any terrain, not to mention the amount of fitness and knee toughness you build up from skiing like that, yea the air awareness you learn from it is good but that's nothin compared to the amount of agility on skis you have.
weird example from personal experience.: when I moved out to Colorado from the midwest and had never really skied moguls before, I was really thrown for a loop at P-horn when I realized a good 70% of that mountain is mogul skiing, and for the first couple months of the season there I did not have the agility built up for that, mogul friends were waiting for me at the bottom for a minute lol
BradFiAusNzCoCa
Active member
Good ole West bowl
14488024:CowboySkibop said:
SWRTOFFICIAL
Active member
14488090:BradFiAusNzCoCa said:
absolutely chopped
GayWolf420
Active member
14488440:CT_CREW said:
Lol he will still ski. He's about the paychecks nowadays so let's not kid ourselves.
Denseclouds
Member
Imagine -
*Tanner Hall 2023: Casually stomps laid out quadruple backflip deep into BC snow just a few weeks into his season...*
*Tanner Hall 2023: Casually stomps laid out quadruple backflip deep into BC snow just a few weeks into his season...*
Chunderface
Active member
14497184:Denseclouds said:
the man is heated up
MastePoleWhacker
Member
14489276:CoolChillGuy420 said:
FIS drug testing will keep skiboss out