Another mass shooting

[JAHpow]

I'm hearing speculation now that he might have been a radicalized muslim. Based on his social media friends and the fact that he was specifically targeting Christians is kind of leading away from mental illness. I'm not denying that mental illness is a factor however.

Anyone hear differently?

 

[skierman]

God bless 'Merica and its pathetic gun control laws and the willful ignorance of many people preventing ANY action from taking place...
http://america.aljazeera.com/articl...earms-recovered-in-oregon-shooting-probe.html

Oh but don't worry, I'm sure everyone with a fascination of the IRA, guns and mass shootings are relatively harmless and deserve to own multiple firearms and as much ammo as they want. No need to look deeper into people purchasing guns... nope. No use in making it harder for the insane to purchase guns. Derp.

 

[msg]

How can you disagree with tightening gun laws

pls

 

[jblaski]

How can you disagree with tightening gun laws

pls

Because tightening the gun control laws would have Z.E.R.O. effect in stopping these incidents. Tightening of the laws affects those who follow the laws, not those mentally deranged assholes that want to get their name in the media before ending their own inconsequential pathetic lives.

 

[corona]

Because tightening the gun control laws would have Z.E.R.O. effect in stopping these incidents.

What is false.

 

[SKI.ING]

Because tightening the gun control laws would have Z.E.R.O. effect in stopping these incidents. Tightening of the laws affects those who follow the laws, not those mentally deranged assholes that want to get their name in the media before ending their own inconsequential pathetic lives.

But most of these mentally unstable people are getting their guns legally, so doesn't that mean different legal processes would help with this issue?

 

[jblaski]

But most of these mentally unstable people are getting their guns legally, so doesn't that mean different legal processes would help with this issue?

If there was an immediate 100% ban on all private owned guns that started tomorrow. Do you really believe that these types of incidents would all of a sudden completely stop?

 

[bakedpow]

Because tightening the gun control laws would have Z.E.R.O. effect in stopping these incidents. Tightening of the laws affects those who follow the laws, not those mentally deranged assholes that want to get their name in the media before ending their own inconsequential pathetic lives.

I don't understand how you can't see the logic in a sensible law that makes it more difficult to buy guns. For law abiding citizens it won't be that much more of a challenge.

I shouldn't be able to buy a gun as easily as its to go and buy a fucking Gallon of milk.

 

[broto]

If there was an immediate 100% ban on all private owned guns that started tomorrow. Do you really believe that these types of incidents would all of a sudden completely stop?

Who was talking about a 100% immediate ban on all privately owned guns? Why did you even bring that up? Seriously, you're just putting words into his mouth.

 

[bakedpow]

If there was an immediate 100% ban on all private owned guns that started tomorrow. Do you really believe that these types of incidents would all of a sudden completely stop?

The people advocating gun laws are not trying to take your guns away. Fuck. How do you not see the falsehoods in your logic? Have you ever taken a debate/argument class? your logic is riddled with fallacies.

 

[SKI.ING]

If there was an immediate 100% ban on all private owned guns that started tomorrow. Do you really believe that these types of incidents would all of a sudden completely stop?

No. Nor would I propose such an extreme and hyperbolic example of gun control. Nothing is going to immediately solve the problem. It is a long road. But laws as they are, are a running joke. Just like our judicial system. There needs to be a overhaul on how guns are purchased. I don't care if its inconvenient. We can all order our guns and still go about our daily lives until they are available. The waiting period and mental health area checks need to be updated in general.

I own firearms. I enjoy them. But this nation does indeed have a serious problem and blindly holding up an old document and applying it shotgun style to modern issues that it wasn't written to deal with. I don't care if you can't buy as many firearms in as many days. Or bulk ammunition. But the process has to change in general.

And while this video is funny, the Simpsons generally point out the major flaws in our society really well.

[video]https://youtu.be/we_D3X1Jliw[/video]

 

[jblaski]

Who was talking about a 100% immediate ban on all privately owned guns? Why did you even bring that up? Seriously, you're just putting words into his mouth.

The people advocating gun laws are not trying to take your guns away. Fuck. How do you not see the falsehoods in your logic? Have you ever taken a debate/argument class? your logic is riddled with fallacies.

What I'm pointing out is, look at the most extreme and drastic case possible, 100% ban. Is that going to solve the problem? No. So what will "slightly more restrictive" laws accomplish? Nothing. James Holmes stocked up for months, sounds like this douchebag did too. All the guns were purchased legally. What laws could they possibly put in place that would have stopped them? It will be a hindrance for those who ARE responsible gun owners, and have zero effect on the criminals. So why make the laws?

 

[bakedpow]

What I'm pointing out is, look at the most extreme and drastic case possible, 100% ban. Is that going to solve the problem? No. So what will "slightly more restrictive" laws accomplish? Nothing. James Holmes stocked up for months, sounds like this douchebag did too. All the guns were purchased legally. What laws could they possibly put in place that would have stopped them? It will be a hindrance for those who ARE responsible gun owners, and have zero effect on the criminals. So why make the laws?

I think this is just where we disagree. I think with the right regulation it WILL stop the majority of these people from getting these guns. I understand you have a different opinion. That's fair.

 

[skierman]

What I'm pointing out is, look at the most extreme and drastic case possible, 100% ban. Is that going to solve the problem? No. So what will "slightly more restrictive" laws accomplish? Nothing. James Holmes stocked up for months, sounds like this douchebag did too. All the guns were purchased legally. What laws could they possibly put in place that would have stopped them? It will be a hindrance for those who ARE responsible gun owners, and have zero effect on the criminals. So why make the laws?

Well, that's a lot of assumptions based on no evidence whatsoever.

 

[.Hugo.]

Within the last year oregon strengthened its gun laws....

 

[S.J.W]

What I'm pointing out is, look at the most extreme and drastic case possible, 100% ban. Is that going to solve the problem? No. So what will "slightly more restrictive" laws accomplish? Nothing. James Holmes stocked up for months, sounds like this douchebag did too. All the guns were purchased legally. What laws could they possibly put in place that would have stopped them? It will be a hindrance for those who ARE responsible gun owners, and have zero effect on the criminals. So why make the laws?

I mean extremely restrictive gun laws have worked in every other country with mass shootings. Why will the US be different?

 

[jblaski]

I mean extremely restrictive gun laws have worked in every other country with mass shootings. Why will the US be different?

Since Britian's major handgun ban in 1998, crime from handguns has more than doubled. After the gun ban in Australia, crime rates have fallen within the margin of error, meaning the ban had what is considered zero affect on crime. At the same time, armed robbery and armed assaults have gone up nearly 3x. What part of the bans have worked?

 

[skierman]

Since Britian's major handgun ban in 1998, crime from handguns has more than doubled. After the gun ban in Australia, crime rates have fallen within the margin of error, meaning the ban had what is considered zero affect on crime. At the same time, armed robbery and armed assaults have gone up nearly 3x. What part of the bans have worked?

On mass shootings which is what this thread and the current debate about strengthening gun laws is centered on?

All of them have worked.

 

[deleted5]

Because tightening the gun control laws would have Z.E.R.O. effect in stopping these incidents. Tighten

Every other country gun death statistic would disagree with that statement. Zero, you really think 0% chance it wouldn't stop one incident of gun violence. You love your guns too much to think strait.

 

[Lonely]

5 is too easy. One for deer hunting, one for larger game, one for small game, one for trap shooting, one for large game birds, one for small game birds, one for protection, one for target shooting etc.

1: .22 for small game/plinking

2: break shotty for small game/whenever you want a light and easy to carry shotty

3: large calibre rifle for large game

4: pump shotgun for ducks/geese/turkey/etc

5: intermediate calibre that shoots something cheap for having fun blasting at stuff

6-infinity: anything else you want because fuck you

I took it that he had five semi auto assault rifles not hunting rifles. I was saying that it was excessive to own five ars. I own six guns myself so that was not my argument

 

[S.J.W]

Since Britian's major handgun ban in 1998, crime from handguns has more than doubled. After the gun ban in Australia, crime rates have fallen within the margin of error, meaning the ban had what is considered zero affect on crime. At the same time, armed robbery and armed assaults have gone up nearly 3x. What part of the bans have worked?

We're not talking about crime and guns. We're talking about guns and mass shootings. If you wish to discuss crime and guns then create a thread on that. Otherwise stick to the topic at hand.

 

[casual]

Yet another shooting in a "gun free" zone. It's funny, these mentally deranged people continue to choose places where they won't meet any resistance (schools, theaters, churches) thanks to liberal polices and rules that make everyone "safer"

Yeah...so let's just arm everyone, right? Give the kindergarten teacher a glock 9? It doesn't strike you whatsoever that there are many industrialized nations with virtually zero gun violence to speak of? It's not because there's such a proliferation of weapons that no one dares to open fire.

Guns are emblazoned in the culture, of course people use guns to act out. We're bombarded with the idea that guns solve problems, in all sorts of ways. The safe, sane, responsible number of gun owners will always dwarf the opposite, but the very fact that guns are so ubiquitous in this country is absolutely tied to the amount of shootings that take place.

 

[casual]

Your math is boarder-line retarded

This is a joke I didn't get? A really out of character typo? I hope so

 

[ryano]

I'll just leave this here.
http://americangunfacts.com

The media NEVER mentions all the lives saved, rapes stopped, robberies stopped, and crime in general stopped because of a conceal and carry or home defense weapon.

Crimes, be it rape, robberies, shootings, knife point, etc.. ALL of them happen in less time than it takes for a policemen to show up.

Take away peoples right to defend themselves, crime rate WILL go up.

 

[deleted5]

I'll just leave this here.
http://americangunfacts.com

The media NEVER mentions all the lives saved, rapes stopped, robberies stopped, and crime in general stopped because of a conceal and carry or home defense weapon.

Crimes, be it rape, robberies, shootings, knife point, etc.. ALL of them happen in less time than it takes for a policemen to show up.

Take away peoples right to defend themselves, crime rate WILL go up.

Did any of these mass shooters have a concealed carry permit? And you have to go through stricter background checks and test to get the permit?

 

[.Hugo.]

Did any of these mass shooters have a concealed carry permit? And you have to go through stricter background checks and test to get the permit?

first part i have no idea. second part yes

 

[las.]

The media NEVER mentions all the lives saved, rapes stopped, robberies stopped, and crime in general stopped because of a conceal and carry or home defense weapon.

Take away peoples right to defend themselves, crime rate WILL go up.

Implying the only way to stop crime and for people to protect themselves is with a gun, and only a gun. It's probably hard for you to conceptualize, because you live in a such a gun-crazy culture, but the rest of the civilized world that has heavy restrictions on guns is getting along just fine without them, for the most part. I don't feel like there's anything missing from my life, and I certainly don't feel less safe. I feel infinitely safer, in fact, and 99% of the people I'd come across on the street would have the same stance.

 

[onenerdykid]

What I'm pointing out is, look at the most extreme and drastic case possible, 100% ban. Is that going to solve the problem? No. So what will "slightly more restrictive" laws accomplish? Nothing. James Holmes stocked up for months, sounds like this douchebag did too. All the guns were purchased legally. What laws could they possibly put in place that would have stopped them? It will be a hindrance for those who ARE responsible gun owners, and have zero effect on the criminals. So why make the laws?

Here is a step(s) in the right direction (please note that I think you ought to be able to own guns in America):

1. Register all guns. If you want to own a gun, that's fine but register it like you need to do with your car.

2. In addition to current background checks done prior to the sale, yearly check ups need to be done post sale. Here in Austria for example, you can own a legal gun of your choosing (similar to/like in America) but you need to do the following every year: the police come to your house to inspect your gun(s), make sure you know how to operate it/them, make sure you have the proper storage area for it/them, and you need to take yearly mental health exams. If you fail any one of these, you lose your right to own a gun.

Some of the pro-gun people will see this as unfairly stepping on their rights to own guns, but you do need to understand that you have the legal right to own a highly destructive weapon capable of easily killing many people. While I am not challenging that right, it does seem very reasonable to say that if you are allowed to own such a weapon that it is the government's responsibility to ensure that you as a law abiding citizen are able and fit to do so.

Will this solve all of our problems? No, I will not ever claim that. Is it a step in the right direction to help make sure people who are not fit and not able to own guns cannot? Yes, I do think so and other countries demonstrate this as well.

 

[Bombogenesis]

Here is a step(s) in the right direction (please note that I think you ought to be able to own guns in America):

1. Register all guns. If you want to own a gun, that's fine but register it like you need to do with your car.

2. In addition to current background checks done prior to the sale, yearly check ups need to be done post sale. Here in Austria for example, you can own a legal gun of your choosing (similar to/like in America) but you need to do the following every year: the police come to your house to inspect your gun(s), make sure you know how to operate it/them, make sure you have the proper storage area for it/them, and you need to take yearly mental health exams. If you fail any one of these, you lose your right to own a gun.

Some of the pro-gun people will see this as unfairly stepping on their rights to own guns, but you do need to understand that you have the legal right to own a highly destructive weapon capable of easily killing many people. While I am not challenging that right, it does seem very reasonable to say that if you are allowed to own such a weapon that it is the government's responsibility to ensure that you as a law abiding citizen are able and fit to do so.

Will this solve all of our problems? No, I will not ever claim that. Is it a step in the right direction to help make sure people who are not fit and not able to own guns cannot? Yes, I do think so and other countries demonstrate this as well.

Your plan fails to address all of the guns that are already in the U.S. that are totally untracked.

 

[Bogs]

All the guns were purchased legally. What laws could they possibly put in place that would have stopped them? It will be a hindrance for those who ARE responsible gun owners, and have zero effect on the criminals. So why make the laws?

I'll ask again: Do you close and lock your door when you leave your home? And do you think that, if someone really wanted to break in, they'd be able to despite you locking your door?

If the answer to both of those questions is yes, then explain to me the reasoning/rational behind bothering to lock your door at all. Isn't it just a waste of your time having to deal with keys and all that every time you leave the house or get home again?

 

[S.J.W]

I'll just leave this here.
http://americangunfacts.com

The media NEVER mentions all the lives saved, rapes stopped, robberies stopped, and crime in general stopped because of a conceal and carry or home defense weapon.

Crimes, be it rape, robberies, shootings, knife point, etc.. ALL of them happen in less time than it takes for a policemen to show up.

Take away peoples right to defend themselves, crime rate WILL go up.

American gun facts. Yeah that looks like a reliable source... Might as well link studies sponsored by Smith and Wesson and call them facts.

 

[msg]

Your plan fails to address all of the guns that are already in the U.S. that are totally untracked.

sigh

 

[.MASSHOLE.]

American gun facts. Yeah that looks like a reliable source... Might as well link studies sponsored by Smith and Wesson and call them facts.

It actually lists all the sources and gives you the link to the actual publishers website. It isn't a major gun company, it is a media company from Texas.

But what do I know? Carry on with your agenda.

 

[Elg]

a media company from Texas.

Yep, probably not biased at all.

 

[.MASSHOLE.]

Yep, probably not biased at all.

You're missing my point. Look at the sources where it gets its information then go from there.

 

[AidanCski]

"Yet even as crime rates decline, not only in the U.S. but in all developed countries, the United States continues to suffer mass casualty gun massacres with a frequency seen nowhere else in the developed world: 133 between 2000 and 2014, as compared to 3 in Canada, 2 in Australia, and 1 in the United Kingdom, according to one global survey."

Just came across this, wow
http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2015/06/mass-shootings-are-preventable/396644/

 

[S.J.W]

It actually lists all the sources and gives you the link to the actual publishers website. It isn't a major gun company, it is a media company from Texas.

But what do I know? Carry on with your agenda.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2012/12/25/gun-free-zone-john-lott/1791085/

This is one of the sources they listed. An opinion piece and if you look at the first page of this thread I posted a study which found that many mass shooters choose their targets based on emotional reasoning and not because said areas are gun free zones. Other sources they posted the links were broken and others no link was present at all. As well as linking to other non reliable sources like examiner.com. All of these factors makes me call into question the reliability of the site he posted.

 

[Lonely]

Your plan fails to address all of the guns that are already in the U.S. that are totally untracked.

The good ole "it won't solve everything so why do anything at all"

 

[onenerdykid]

Your plan fails to address all of the guns that are already in the U.S. that are totally untracked.

If by "totally untracked" you mean guns on the black market, then obviously. But, many of these mass murders/public shootings are done with legally obtained guns. If the police/government can detect and find a few people each year that are not fit to own guns, then that's only a step in the right direction. At the very least it ensures the people who do own guns need to know how to properly own, care for, store, etc. their guns and take mental health exams.

 

[ryano]

Implying the only way to stop crime and for people to protect themselves is with a gun, and only a gun. It's probably hard for you to conceptualize, because you live in a such a gun-crazy culture, but the rest of the civilized world that has heavy restrictions on guns is getting along just fine without them, for the most part. I don't feel like there's anything missing from my life, and I certainly don't feel less safe. I feel infinitely safer, in fact, and 99% of the people I'd come across on the street would have the same stance.

You completely ignored everything I just said.. The facts are that crime goes up when guns are banned. Look at the statistics.

The rest of the world is not getting along just fine without guns, look at their crime rates before and after guns.

 

[Bombogenesis]

If by "totally untracked" you mean guns on the black market, then obviously. But, many of these mass murders/public shootings are done with legally obtained guns. If the police/government can detect and find a few people each year that are not fit to own guns, then that's only a step in the right direction. At the very least it ensures the people who do own guns need to know how to properly own, care for, store, etc. their guns and take mental health exams.

I don't disagree with any of this. I just wonder if it'd just strengthen the black market and spike crime even more. Maybe not who knows.

 

[bakedpow]

You completely ignored everything I just said.. The facts are that crime goes up when guns are banned. Look at the statistics.

The rest of the world is not getting along just fine without guns, look at their crime rates before and after guns.

At the moment we are not discussing crime rates though are we? We are talking about MASS murders. At the very least they should have stricter regulations on ammunition and guns that can execute mass murders. no joe blow needs an ar in his garage to defend his home...

 

[Elg]

You completely ignored everything I just said.. The facts are that crime goes up when guns are banned. Look at the statistics.

The rest of the world is not getting along just fine without guns, look at their crime rates before and after guns.

Mass shootings. Not crime in general.

But as long as no one is robbing 7elevens at gun point, it doesn't matter if some maniac opens fire at a school...

 

[jblaski]

At the moment we are not discussing crime rates though are we? We are talking about MASS murders. At the very least they should have stricter regulations on ammunition and guns that can execute mass murders. no joe blow needs an ar in his garage to defend his home...

Once again, you are the one missing the point. How many people die each day from "simple crime" from gunfire? How any die each year from "mass murders"? (Hint: it's not the mass murders). The President makes a big speech like it's so angry about this school shooting, yet, in his home town last weekend, DOUBLE the amount of people died as a result of gunfire.

You pretend so hard that you care about these people who die in school, church, or mall shootings. Yet, you seem to not give a single shit about the people in the streets that are dying by the dozens.

 

[bakedpow]

Once again, you are the one missing the point. How many people die each day from "simple crime" from gunfire? How any die each year from "mass murders"? (Hint: it's not the mass murders). The President makes a big speech like it's so angry about this school shooting, yet, in his home town last weekend, DOUBLE the amount of people died as a result of gunfire.

You pretend so hard that you care about these people who die in school, church, or mall shootings. Yet, you seem to not give a single shit about the people in the streets that are dying by the dozens.

yeah youre right, i dont give two shits about senseless murders either...the fuck youre putting words in my mouth for? it's gun violence in general mate. personally i dont think there is a solution to any of our nations obsession with violence. we are so utterly and completely in love with guns, blood, gore, war, violence that we are far beyond any sort of salvation from ourselves. i just despise people who cant see how brain washed they have been growing up. the mass shooters are all a product of american society. its our obsession with owning, having, blowing up, kicking the bad guy down the block etc etc etc

 

[californiagrown]

why not make ammunition super duper expensive? Like $50 a bullet for 9mm ammo etc.

Ranges would provide ammo at normal prices, but you would only be allowed to buy onsite and wouldnt be allowed to take ammo offsite.

if all you are actually trying to do is protect yourself, then 4 bullets will suite you fine in a home invasion. Im sure we could come up a with a simple solution for meat hunters.

 

[deleted5]

why not make ammunition super duper expensive? Like $50 a bullet for 9mm ammo etc.

Ranges would provide ammo at normal prices, but you would only be allowed to buy onsite and wouldnt be allowed to take ammo offsite.

if all you are actually trying to do is protect yourself, then 4 bullets will suite you fine in a home invasion. Im sure we could come up a with a simple solution for meat hunters.

Yeah let's do that I'll illegally sell ammo out of my range for $20 a bullet. That was a little far even for me. But then again maybe my meter is broken.

 

[Bogs]

You pretend so hard that you care about these people who die in school, church, or mall shootings. Yet, you seem to not give a single shit about the people in the streets that are dying by the dozens.

Thing is so many of those murders are gang related, which, I hope you'll agree, is a little different from perfectly innocent people being killed for no reason other than being in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Obviously something needs to be done about gangs and helping people living in those areas feel like they have options other than joining a gang, but it still just isn't that comparable to people being killed in mass shootings.

 

[skierman]

Yeah let's do that I'll illegally sell ammo out of my range for $20 a bullet. That was a little far even for me. But then again maybe my meter is broken.

No, he's just ripping off a Chris Rock joke.

 

[qazwsxedc34]

The problem of gun violence lies within METROPOLITAN AREAS with a population greater than 200,000 people. Numerous variables come into play when comparing other countries to the US and the straight-shooting fact is that the media does not constitute for said variables.

In short, yes the US has a higher murder rate than say the UK, however the UK has a higher violent crime rate. The UK also only counts unlawful killings as homicides where as the US counts all killings no matter how it happens. So the actual murder rate is much lower then the US statistics would have you think. Violent crime definitions are not the same for the US and UK, hence violent crime sits at between 900 and 1361 per 100,000 people.

The UK still has a violent crime rate higher than that of the US's 386.3 per. 100,000 per capita, just not the 5 1/2 claimed by some, but between 2 1/2 and 3 1/2 times more.

Now the AR-15 is a subset of a rifle and RIFLES CAUSE ONLY 3.5% OF GUN-RELATED HOMICIDES!! The question is, why pinpoint the sub-set of a rifle, why?

REMEMBER, FBI statistics US- 1992- violent crime rate of 757.7 per 100,000 and a murder rate of specifically 9.3. Almost twenty years later, 2011 US has a violent crime rate of 386.3 a 50% REDUCTION in violent crime and a murder rate of 4.7 a 54% reduction! It's better than you are conditioned to believe.

In order to FIX these problems, instead of banning guns we have to try to figure out how to improve the POVERTY LEVEL, HOW TO IMPROVE THE EDUCATION SYSTEM AND HOW TO CREATE JOBS, THAT IS HOW YOU WILL IMPROVE THE VIOLENT CRIME RATE AND MURDER RATE!!!! Our society often attempts to find solutions from within the problem. This is why bullying will never be eradicated under this social order. This is why sexism thrives; this is why class warfare is fed from the teet of propaganda. THE PROBLEM ISN"T THE GUNS!!!