A Columbine Victims Father Has Something To Say

I hear you but I don't feel that you need religion for morality. I feel like you can develop those same skills through clubs, rec programs, summer camps, and other things that don't have anything to do with religion.

I mean I went to church forever, I went to a christian camp for a week every summer from 4-5 until I was maybe 15. I did youth groups and a friday night rec program put on by one of the churches. I feel like I have a very solid moral foundation, but I don't think it has anything to do with the religion aspect. I feel I got just as much out of boy scouts/camp, non church rec programs, and whatever else.

I don't steal because I don't believe in it. Not because I really want to but I know Jesus is watching me and I'm scared to get punished. That's more fear of the law than really being a good person.

And at the bottom I agree. Unfortunately it's a tough one. Especially with all the real life shit storms these days. I feel that the vast majority of schools/teachers have good intentions and do their best, but it's a tough one. You try to solve a problem here and create another one over there. I feel for them.
 
couldnt agree more, as soon as he started to talk about how we need to follow god again and pray more, i scrolled down to see how long the article actually was. luckly it was short, so i just gritted thru the religious sermon at the end and finished the article.
 
Saw this half way up the first page and it's kinda late, but...

You can't choose what you believe it. A belief is the result of what information makes it through, and gets blocked by your mental filter. You can't wake up one day and say, "Today, I'm gonna be Muslim." It doesn't work that way. I remember in another thread, a few weeks ago, someone pretty much said that they didn't believe in God, but went to church anyway, just in case God DID exist. He had no business going to church, because he was pretending to believe in something he did not. There was nothing to be gained.
 
Here we go again. Playing the victim card. Trying to force your beliefs on everyone, get rid of gay people, but still acting like martyrs.

It's so terrible! We try to tell everyone that they're wrong, that they need jesus, that need to be forced to pray in school, that gay people are disgusting, and they say that religion is a joke on the internet. I mean it's like they're pretty much torturing us for jesus by saying that they don't agree with christianity and think it shouldn't be taught in schools. I might even right a book called "tortured for jesus".

As far as some of the more real Christian martyrs. Did it ever occur to people that it might not be a bad idea to go into a jungle village, tell the people they're wrong, and that they're going to hell and that your white blonde haired jesus is the only thing that's going to save them? I'm not saying what's happened is right, but it's not like they canoed up to your church and killed people.

Don't you think it's a little bit funny that we have all these religions and each claim to know the ultimate truth? If most christians grew up in a different part of the world they would probably believe a completely different religion. Just because they happened to grow up believing in christianity doesn't mean it's the truth.

Also sort of amusing that these people hold the answers to the ultimate questions about our purpose, our beginning, the after life, but many don't even seem to know the truth about simple things that can easily be proved/disproved.

 
says not to point fingers at specific groups, yet blames mass murders on secular society. . .

there is no evidence that any religion, or lack of religion, results in more or less violence. every religion in the present or past has had its violent periods.

says banning guns will erode personal liberties, yet wants religion to be a part of public education. . .

allowing prayer in school, a pubic place, even optional prayer puts "indirect coercive pressure upon religious minorities to conform to the officially approved religion." (supreme court justice black Engel v. Vitale). there is a huge difference between calling for a strengthening of morals and personal responsibility within society, and calling for religion to be allowed in schools. yes, christianity promotes good character and tries to improve people and society, but is also promotes its own doctrine, its own laws, and its own beliefs on how the universe was formed and operates. just because christianity promotes ethical behavior does not negate the fact that it is a religion, that it strives to convert others, and that americans have a constitutional right to their own religion. that means attending a public institution should in no shape or form attempt to influence, in any indirect or direct manner, an individuals existing religious beliefs.

 
^that

However, religion has caused violence throughout history. There's no denying that.

jon-stewart-christian-persecution-meme.jpg

 
how is it playing a "victim card" when all i have to do on here is simply state that i am a christian or state my christian beliefs with no connotation of forcing them on anyone. and i will, without fail, receive more hate than ANY other person here stating a different religion they believe in, heck, most of you would be more apt to defend any other religion except christianity. please tell me why?

but also. yes, i do agree there is a lot of reasons why people hate on christianity, and there is a lot of hypocrisy in the christian church, and there is a lot of legalistic "christians" that show hate towards others, and there are certain groups that call themselves "christians" that are not acting in a biblical manner in the least bit.

BUT, that does not mean you should automatically hate every single person that professes to be a christian.
 
If they commited a crime then it technically would not be murder and those are all examples from the old testament. which i have explained in like 19 different threads is still valuable but rules were abolished by jesus. It was not christian adherence because God would never demand the murder of innocents Jesus came to preach love not murder tard.
 
in the united state we have to deal with hypocrisies of christianity more than any other religion, on top of it being as or more imperialistic than other religions.
 
It's playing the victim card because you're posting about how the bible said christians will get persecuted like jesus did, and somebody said your religion is dumb so you're pretty much a martyr right?

This is what I don't get about it. Through anything christians will consistently bitch about how everyone is coming after them, they're the victims. The world is full of evil because we've turned our backs on gods. The fact that people don't want to have religion forced on them = a massive attack on religious beliefs.

The bible had something about free will in there.

Then more I'M such a victim, I receive so much hate, I'M a martyr. Honestly ns is mostly Americans, christianity is by far the dominant religion. If the majority of ns is christian, the majority of hate towards religion will be directed at christianity. Mind blowing right?

"BUT, that does not mean you should automatically hate every single person that professes to be a christian."

I don't hate anyone man. I have good friends that are religious. We generally just stay away from the issue. IF it comes up on the internet I'm not going to have a problem voicing my opinions on the matter.

The majority of christians suck at being christians. Have I met every christian? Hell know, but I've met enough of them over the years that I feel comfortable making that statement.

Look at all the ignorance, judgement, and hate within the religion. I understand when you talk about not judging the whole religion off of a couple people, that's completely valid. Unfortunately I'm judging it off of every christian I've run across over the years, all the churches, everything.

And honestly if people weren't shoving it in my face, I probably would have no problem with it. I mean, trying to bring little kids into youth groups and church rec programs. You're getting these kids to come in for playing dodgeballs so you can scare a little child into thinking he's going to hell unless he believes in your mythical god in the sky. To me that's disgusting.

If christians could sit back and let other people decide for themselves what they wanted to believe I would have MUCH more respect for them. At the same time, they would lose a lot of potential follows. I'd say the majority of religious people believe in their religion because it was drilled into their heads as children.

So there's some people out in the jungle living on their own away from all the bullshit of modern society. Who are you to go in there and tell them that they're wrong, their existence is meaningless without your god. The god you believe in simply because some douche brainwashed you as a child.

Just stop trying to play the victim card at every corner. I'm not trying to take away your religious beliefs. Hell, I'm a fucking gay dude and I support the right of churches to deny same sex marriage. I'm not trying to destroy your little belief system.

Religious people talk about how obama is destroying the fabric of our society. I bet a good chunk of christians in america voted for Bush. You know, that guy that passed things like the PATRIOT act. They know the answer to everything in the universe, but they aren't smart enough to see they voted for a guy who did the same shit they HATE about Obama? Brilliant.

Whatever. Go play the victim card, nobody is going to read that and now I'm hungry.

 
From my many years on the internet, I have found there is no point in arguing with the unintelligent. Most of the time is spent trying to get them back on subject while they repeatedly veer off trying to argue some irrelevant point.

Let's not forget your claim is that people cannot choose their own beliefs. Trying to argue against that would be like trying to argue against somebody who thinks the sky is green. If you can't even grasp the most basic of facts, there's no point in trying to argue with you at all.
 
the moment he started talking about religion the entire argument became void to me and it just started sounding idiotic.

i feel for this guy, seriously i do, i can only imagine the pain of losing a child, but trying to conduct a serious argument and then introducing fairy tales and made up bullshit just ruins anything that was factual and persuasive that he was trying to say.

if i'm arguing with somebody and they start quoting the bible or talking about religion, they might as well try and convince me that their point is valid because the easter bunny and tooth fairy said so.
 
I know you're trolling but while I'm waiting fuck it.

God told Abraham attempts to kill his son Ishmael. God stopped him so he didn't end up killing him. It was just a test to see how loyal he was.

Well that's great to teach. IT's great that real people have killed their real children because they thought god told them to.

 
That's what I meant. It's been a while since I've actually read that book. Give me a break.

Well god let everyone else kill their children. If his goal is to not let anyone killed their kids because god said so, he kind of sucks at it.
 
father wants prayer back in schools. anyone with a brain says thats retarded. christians play victim and defend the idea. people who are capable of thought laugh at whiny bible thumpers. #waronchristmas
 
without separation of church and state this country would be a giant clusterfuck...honestly guys... saying a few words out loud isn't going to stop a murderer and bringing the church into school isn't going to magically going to stop these psychos from massacring people
 
you should read a section of the book before you speak out against the bible, because you dont really know what you are talking about.
 
If this guy is really trying to argue that prayer should be required in schools, I have to wonder. Doesn't forcing people to pray, whether they like it or not, take the value away from true faith? Wouldn't it turn a prayer, something that is very meaningful for many people regardless of religion, into an obligation and a means of authority?

I believe in God, but I have backed away from the Christian church after growing up with its teachings. I think there are many things of value that can be taken away from the religion, but I disagree with the idea that there should be guidelines as to how and who to love, whether it be other people or a higher being.

If you like the structure and the beliefs, that's cool. But not everyone does, and you have to respect that opinion.

Whatever.

Anyway, go abortionator, go!
 
as much as a shitstorm as this thread is, i really wish people would realize that religion is the answer. im not saying you should go buy a bible or go to church or even believe in a "great creator" all im saying is just find a good reason to live your life and be considerate to everyone around you, even the inconsiderate people.
 
"you should read a section" Really? I've read that whole book you speak of at least once all the way through and the majority of it several times.

Was I being a bit ridiculous? Yes, that was my point. Don't act like I don't have a clue what's in the bible or how many people interpret it. I spent a long long time completely immersed in religion. I spent a lot of time praying, and reading my bible, memorizing verses. I used to be able to spout off fairly large sections. I used to be all about that.

I'm not trying to brag. It's not even something I'm proud of. I'm just saying that in response to "you dont really know what you are talking about"

 
I agree with the abortinator in this thread, weve made a lot of progress towards social progress, and i dont think 'lack of christian values' is the reason for all of the bad things in the world. the World was never christian, the wealthy white people who were able to rule were.

christians never think back to before christianity, i think all religions are probably from the same roots in mankind, historians just havent finished putting the puzzle together
 
In defense of religion. The earth is like 7,000 years old and was started with the garden of eden, adam and eve, cane and able.

Regardless if certain christians believe the earth is around that old or believe it's much older, the bible says that life began with adam. So the religion of christianity began at the beginning of time. Gen 1.1 In the beginning God create the heavens and earth

It's not like we all came here from evolution and then all the sudden people decided to make up christianity.

 
Everyone is so quick to jump and say its a bunch of religious bullshit, but what do you care if it is? Chances are all of you 13 year olds weren't at Columbine and haven't been placed in the situation he and his family has been placed in. If he confides in religion than more power to him. The fact that he is at least trying to make an argument against stricter gun control and at least attempting to change the mindframe of everyone looking at these types of tragedies is great. Be thankful he at least had the courage to be up there and speak about it before you bash his religious beliefs.
 
Um because he's making an argument that I feel is ridiculous, and I have the right to say so. No way, most people weren't at columbine? Was that your main point? Of course most people weren't there, and haven't been in that situation. That isn't relevant.

I have no problem with the dude confiding in religion. He went through some intense shit, so if that makes him feel better than good for him. I do have a problem with anyone arguing that we need to force religion on the masses. Arguing that putting forced prayer back in school, and forcing religion on society will stop bad things from happening.

And most people agreed that it was solid that he was actually against stricter gun control laws.

"Be thankful he at least had the courage to be up there and speak about it before you bash his religious beliefs."

Why the hell should I be thankful that he had the courage to say that my freewill is worthless, and I should be forced into a religion I don't believe? Everyone has an opinion. Some of them I agree with some of them I don't. I'm not going to be thankful just because some dude had the courage to speak his shitty opinion.

I did bash his religious beliefs in this thread. I probably shouldn't but fuck it. He was saying that the evil we see is a result of moving away from god. Moving away from god is a personal choice. Nobody forced me to turn my back on religion, I did that myself. I don't take kindly to any douche telling me that every problem in the world results from myself and others not believing in their religion.

I know I don't put things in the kindest terms, but I don't take kindly to people telling me what to believe.
 
Dumbass.

Yeah God is what we need. Just look at the Gaza Strip!

Belief in "God" (all the different Gods across all religions, that is) has killed more people than just about anything. People who equate god = peace are far too modernized and sheltered to earn my respect for their opinion. Just because there has never been a fight or violence at your church doesn't mean religion in it's global scope isn't the worst thing to ever happen to the human race... Because it pretty much is. Morally, sure it sounds nice. In reality though, identifying with a god is inherently saying someone else is wrong, and thus it opens up a whole bevy of superiority issues, conflicts and prejudicial opinions.

I would instead ask why one needs religion to be of good moral fiber? Does one necessarily need to fear a flying spaghetti monster to know the difference between socially responsible behavior and being a shitty person? I don't think so, but I also recognize that the majority of the world is too stupid to step outside the fear factor and rely simply on simple moral objectivity itself rather than reciprocal fearmongering and threats of eternal damnation and endless suffering in the event of a noncompliance.

 
^ so much ignorance in this post. you honestly think that the church hundreds of years ago is the same as it is today? secondly no, people are responsible for the thousands of death's in the world. not religion. and no one, i mean absolutely no one believes that you have to have religion to be of good moral fiber. because of free will we have the ability to do good or not. if you honestly believe any of that i would throw your computer out of the kitchen right away and leave this thread.
 
Maybe a better way to articulate what I'm trying to say is:

"If you insist that having God in everyone's lives, WHICH GOD ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT???"

You talking about the Christian God? Jewish?? Muslim? Buddhist??? Are you saying that we should all just worship the God you agree with? It's just such an imcomplete sentiment IMO and people never stop to think before they say tings like that. They're only seeing it from their eyes. In terms of their God.
 
I think you may be overlooking the fact that up until a historically very recent time, the church had the authority to kill you for not adhering to their standards. Non believers were often executed, enslaved or ostracized. Your modern view of religion may apply to this country, bt elsewhere in the world, religion is still creating wars and perpetuating violence towards nonbelievers.

It's unfortunate as it is ironic that something that was created to insipre morality can be so counterproductive.
 
This is also incorrect. Go interview people in the bible belt about non christians and see what they have to say.
 
LOL. That literally is the whole point of religion, and that is its claim. It provides a set of rules that it claims are infallible and if you dont believe in its morals no matter how absurd they are you somehow are an immoral or less pure individual.

Also in response to the rest of your post. Religion actually does kill people. It inspires people to kill people. Just read the bible. The whole first half is god slaughtering inferior tribes and telling his chosen people to kill off those who are lesser than them. Not to mention the moral code of deuteronomy and Leviticus calls for the death of gays, adulterers, infidels, and non-believers. And Jesus fully supported the laws of the old book. Its a bronze age delusion that has no place in modern life anymore.
 
Maybe instead we should be teaching this, God is whatever you want it to be, God is simply the driving force in the universe and the definition of God is up for you to decide. Christians can believe in whatever definition of god they want, the same goes for muslims, jews, hindus, Buddhists, whatever (including atheists). Religion is not the problem, the problem is the extremists and the intolerance. Religions teach many good values and morals. Although a person shouldn't need religion to have good morals and values religion acts as a a way to back up and renforce those values at times when they are being tested. We would have just as many problems in a world with no religion compared to our current world, but in a tolerant world we eliminate these problems. A world with both tolerance and religion is better than the culture-less wasteland that you imagine.
 
Really? Because I'm pretty sure that's what his argument is about.

For somebody who called me out for supposedly not knowing anything about the bible, you really are pretty ignorant.

 
It is and that's a shitty reason for people to do it. At the same time, that doesn't mean it describes everyone that's posting against religion.

I hate trendy things. Voting for obama was one of the trendiest of the mctrenster trendy things to do and I thought that was retarded(hate both parties by the way) Seeing 12 year olds that have no real understanding of the world with obama stickers because it was cool, and rebelling against their parents made me WUT so hard.

The same happens with religion. I try not to hate on it for the sake of hating on it, but arguments like this thread make it hard to leave it alone.
 
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