californiagrown
Active member
13517675:Granite_State said:
As for you, basic reading comprehension answers your question.
Would The World Be Better Off Without Religion?
- Thread starter onenerdykid
- Start date
As for you, basic reading comprehension answers your question.
Charlie_Kelly
Active member
13517681:californiagrown said:
Great answer!
Sorry I'm not about to sift through all your posts in this thread. I'm just not that interested. But you literally said they were written by god in the post I quoted so I think my comprehension is on point.
onenerdykid
Active member
13517679:californiagrown said:
Not remotely the same. There is nothing about any moral philosophy that seeks to divide people, oppress women, and punish those who have a different opinion (aside from those who break the law, of course). Whereas in religion, you see this constantly and it is not due to misinterpretation. It's blatantly written that its followers should do it.
There are literally hundreds of passages from religious text that not only justify violence but inspire their followers to commit it. The Qur'an is the easiest example to pull from and these are hardly able to be misinterpreted or twisted to fit a charismatic leader's goals:
Quran (2:191-193) - "And kill them wherever you find them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out. And Al-Fitnah [disbelief or unrest] is worse than killing... but if they desist, then lo! Allah is forgiving and merciful. And fight them until there is no more Fitnah [disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allah] and worship is for Allah alone."
Abu Dawud (14:2526) - The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: Three things are the roots of faith: to refrain from (killing) a person who utters, "There is no god but Allah" and not to declare him unbeliever whatever sin he commits, and not to excommunicate him from Islam for his any action; and jihad will be performed continuously since the day Allah sent me as a prophet until the day the last member of my community will fight with the Dajjal (Antichrist)
Likewise, the Bible itself is full of obvious passages that inspire people towards hatred and killing:
Deuteronomy 3:3-6 - So the LORD our God delivered Og also, king of Bashan, with all his people into our hand, and we smote them until no survivor was left. We captured all his cities at that time; there was not a city which we did not take from them: sixty cities, all the region of Argob, the kingdom of Og in Bashan. All these were cities fortified with high walls, gates and bars, besides a great many unwalled towns. We utterly destroyed them, as we did to Sihon king of Heshbon, utterly destroying the men, women and children of every city.
Joshua 8:24-26 - When the Israelite army finished chasing and killing all the men of Ai in the open fields, they went back and finished off everyone inside. So the entire population of Ai, including men and women, was wiped out that day—12,000 in all. For Joshua kept holding out his spear until everyone who had lived in Ai was completely destroyed.
Hosea 13:16 - Samaria shall bear her guilt, because she has rebelled against her God; they shall fall by the sword, their little ones shall be dashed in pieces, and their pregnant women ripped open.
I mean, it's too easy to find these verses, and I didn't even list verses about rape or slavery. Apologists can argue all they want about context, misinterpretation, and figurative literary tools, but the fact of the matter is these religions are obviously divisive, violent, and inspire their followers to go down these paths. Moderately religious people ignore such passages, as they are fully right to do so. But it just demonstrates the need for reason and common sense to put religion in check.
Charlie_Kelly
Active member
Also responding to your post about how more religious people donate to charity than atheists (though Im assuming you meant non-religious people). Bill Gates alone has donated over $28 billion to charitable organizations and is certainly not religious. I wonder if religious donations in the U.S. even come close to that...
californiagrown
Active member
13517699:Granite_State said:
Context is important...
californiagrown
Active member
13517742:nocturnal said:
Really? What bad ideas have lutherans pushed?
onenerdykid
Active member
13517744:californiagrown said:
Aside from the general religious actions that we've already named & discussed (oppression of women, divisiveness, placing faith over reason, etc), Lutheranism maintains that "by grace alone through faith alone on the basis of Scripture alone" so that Scripture alone is the ultimate guide for faith and salvation. So those quotes I posted above are undoubtedly true in the eyes of a Lutheran. Whether they act on it or not is up to the individual, but they are not renounced by the Lutheran faith.
Martin Luther himself was an anti-Semite and wrote at length about his disgust for Jews. His writings were so powerful that Nazi Germany quoted his writings ad nauseam in the vast majority of the propaganda used in the Third Reich. Many Protestant churches in Germany approved of Jews wearing the yellow badge and supported this because Luther himself wanted preventative measures taken against the Jews and their expulsion from Germany. So yeah, if you don't consider the horrible things that Nazi Germany did to be "bad ideas" then I guess you're right.
You might also want to ignore all of the wars and conflict that occurred due to the Protestant Reformation. The struggle that existed between Protestants and Catholics caused undeniable turmoil, murder, execution, and revocation of rights all because of differences in belief that were not tolerated.
This is what modern faith loves to sweep under the rug and ignore, but at religion's core is a definite and obvious insistence for its followers to claim that "we are right, you are wrong and you will be punished for your impiety". Modern conscious tells us to be tolerant, not the religions themselves.
onenerdykid
Active member
13518056:onenerdykid said:
*conscience, not conscious.
californiagrown
Active member
13519002:Sparta said:
Why is that problematic? Religon is based on faith, not facts.
californiagrown
Active member
13519020:Sparta said:
Kinda like you have obvious disdain for those of faith?
S.J.W
Active member
13519113:nocturnal said:
Kinda like how atheists think they're superior because of science. How business students they're super perior over art students, how snowboarders think they're superior over skiers, etc,etc. People will always use anything to gain a sense of superiority over someone.
13519130:S.J.W said:
Not even remotely, but good try. One belief advances humanity, and the other is selfish and only done for yourself. I dont think ill be set for an eternity in paradice while everyone else suffers for an eternity. I think we are all the same once we die no matter shat yoy belive. Planes fly computers compute and medicine heals. If you were choking would you want me to pray or perform the Heimlich maneuver?
californiagrown
Active member
13519113:nocturnal said:
That's cause unless I agree with you, you think its a bad answer.
People look down on people who are different. Always have and IMO, always will. If that's your problem with religon you should have the same problem with sports teams, clothing choice, language, diet, etc.
13519145:californiagrown said:
Religon impose their beliefs and effect my life. So no its very diffrent from a sports team also your bullshit anwser of o they donate money. I have a family member who started two charities and gave close to half a billion after he died. I know familys on wallstreet who host yearly competitions to see who can give the most money to charity and use it for a tax write off we're talking about hundreds of millions of dollars a year between them. What has your religon family done lately? That's your one defense that they donate money? That doesn't outweigh all the bad it's caused.
S.J.W
Active member
13519144:nocturnal said:
but you weren't referring to progressing mankind. You were referring to how group of people think they're better than another group of people based on something as trivial as religion. And if you were to take away religion, people would still find something to feel superior over someone else.
californiagrown
Active member
13519153:nocturnal said:
So being rich is better than being religious.
Well, you're neither, so what does that make you?
S.J.W
Active member
13519155:nocturnal said:
But I am not discussing whether or not religion is good or bad. I am telling you that people will always find a way to feel better about themselves whilst putting someone else down. You seem to wanting a can of worms on a pretty simple point. If religion didn't exist people would still find a way to feel good about themselves. End of discussion.
californiagrown
Active member
13519161:nocturnal said:
I never said that anywhere. You seem very upset in your posts.
I said that a very redeeming quality of religon is that most encourage and "peer pressure" members into charitable works they wouldn't otherwise do.
Also, using a few exceptionally ultra rich guys you very loosely know as an example to try a disprove ageneral statement I made about many billions of people is a little ridiculous. Not to mentionakes you come off as a douchey name dropper.
californiagrown
Active member
13519171:nocturnal said:
You might want to look into religon. Seems like it'd make you a better person.
If not religon, I hope you find something else.
S.J.W
Active member
13519172:nocturnal said:
Okay maybe short little dot points are more your thing?
1. You made a point about religious people thinking they're better because of eternal life or some shit.
2. I said people will always find a way to feel superior regardless of religion or not.
3. You tried to open a can of worms on a relatively easy discussion point.
4, I told you again that people will always find a way to feel superior, regardless of religion.
5. You still don't understand my point even though I explained it to you twice.
6. ?????????
7. You realise what I was trying to say and stop quoting me on some next level dumb shit
8. I go to bed because I'm tired
californiagrown
Active member
13519180:nocturnal said:
Yes. That is because I believe those negative things it can bring about are not inherently the fault of religon, bit of man. Man will always find a reason to shit on, kill, and subjucate that which is different.
The solution isn't ending religon, its ending differences. And I think differences are great. How bout you?
Nice name drop again, btw. You don't care about people's feelings, and from from an ultra rich family. You're not giving athiests a great image here haha
13519194:californiagrown said:
So you're telling me that the Crusades or Israel and Palestine have nothing to do with religion and it's just because of peoples differences? You're wrong, in some aspects I'm sure you're right but to make a ridiculous generalization of every situation surely you're not even that stupid. You're also not addressing how the church used to kill and imprison people who would speak out against it, or try to push scientific truth that turned out to be correct. No amount of charitable donations will make up for that.
13519177:californiagrown said:
Also you're putting words in my mouth, in that post we were talking about people feeling superior, and I don't care what an individual feels anybody can have any feeling they want its not my business as long as they don't impose their beliefs on me from a position of authority, and I'm not going to speak on a moral authority of what people can feel or do. Some religious people would disagree with me on that like Kim Davis or rick Santorum but hey i bet they tide 10% so thats ok. That's my point not hurt others people's feelings because it doesn't matter.
californiagrown
Active member
13519208:nocturnal said:
What I said went right over your head. Any one else care to try and explain?
californiagrown
Active member
13519221:nocturnal said:
What if my morals happen to line up with religious ethics? Should o not be allowed to fight for a government that reflects my morals and beliefs?
13519235:californiagrown said:
If it comes from wanting to better people and they country yes, but even then people get it wrong all the time. If its coming only from the though of pleasing your god so you and many others can go to heaven, then I disagree with how and where your thinking is coming from.
californiagrown
Active member
13519241:nocturnal said:
Lol I thought you don't care how people feel, only their actions?
californiagrown
Active member
13519356:nocturnal said:
you just said that you only have an issue with the law if people enforce it for religious reasons.
Its tough when you realize that the view you hold isnt logical but is instead based upon emotion.
13519467:californiagrown said:
it is logical, and your now changing your argument, I want people to want to make the world and others lives better because they want there time on earth to be better. Not to please a magical man in the clouds or because an old book says so, that's being done out of fear and not genuine. Its very logical your just too set in your religious upbringing to see it.
californiagrown
Active member
13519481:nocturnal said:
You are like a bad politician- flip flopping opinions when you appear to be on the wrong side of an argument haha.
Lol, so the nice things that religious people do, are not genuine. Yeah, that makes sense.
and FYI, I never said i hold anything resembling religious beliefs.
13519488:californiagrown said:
They're not genuine at all if God came down tomorrow and told him to do the opposite, or the bible said somthing else they would do that. If God came down tomorrow and the kick all gay people out of America I don't see any practicing Christian trying to oppose that idea from their so called God, and say hey god that goes against my ethics. I've been saying that the whole time my opinion still stands. You really seem to be the one who's upset and angry I'm not flip flopping at all. People are allowed to believe whatever they want as long as it doesn't affect me and they don't put rules in place that I have to follow. I do not think they should be allowed to have athority from there religious views.
ImNotARacist
Active member
Buddhism
that is all
that is all
californiagrown
Active member
13519504:nocturnal said:
Ummmm no kidding. It would also prove the existence of God and all of your viewpoints would be invalidated. Sweet logic.
13519518:californiagrown said:
that's my point.......... some people do it for god or the idea for god not because its what they believe is right, which is why i made up a hypothetical example that would never happen. They are slaves to god and do whatever he says or thinks the way he wants them to think. that thinking down the road can cause problems for others. I guess we wont agree and you are no longer arguing but personally attacking me so I guess this is where this conversation ends.
onenerdykid
Active member
13519113:nocturnal said:
13519130:S.J.W said:
There is a big difference between an atheist claiming to be superior because of science (but I don't think one ought to be) and a religious person claiming to be better than an atheist or non-believer. The truly religious person believes they are 100% absolutely right and everyone else is wrong and those who are wrong are second class citizens and/or deserving of punishment. While atheists can be arrogantly superior, they do not want to punish the believers for their beliefs. That's a big difference.
From the Bible:
"I am the LORD, and there is no other, there is no God beside Me." (Isaiah 45:5)
"Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me." (John 14:6)
"They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman." (2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB)
From the Qur'an
"So exalted be Allah, the True King; no god is there but He, the Lord of the honorable dominion" (Quran 23:116).
"This is because Allah is the Truth and because He gives life to the dead and because He has power over all things" (Quran 22:6).
"And kill them wherever you find them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out. And Al-Fitnah [disbelief or unrest] is worse than killing... but if they desist, then lo! Allah is forgiving and merciful. And fight them until there is no more Fitnah [disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allah] and worship is for Allah alone." (Quran 2:191-193) -
I am not claiming that without religion, people will 100% be good. Being a good person requires moral education, and that means being taught ethical principles of good/bad and right/wrong. And these principles can be taught and learned without religion. What I am claiming is that while religion does do some obvious good in the world, it inspires, encourages, and motivates its followers to commit horrible, horrible things because they have the "one truth" and everyone else who believes anything different is wrong and must be punished.
While this may not always result in war or murder, it most certainly results in oppression of people/races/genders and stifling creative, philosophical, and scientific thought. And this is what we see in areas of religious conflict (the current hot bed is the Middle East). Yes, land rights and war might happen without religion, but you would be a fool to think that religion is not a huge catalyst that these people use to justify their actions.