Worst, most awful, ski brands and skis.

[iggyskier]

I think the ptex manufacturers wont be very willing to release their trade secrets tho.

I believe most info you are looking for can be reviewed on their websites. Here are some places if you want to start reading them.

https://www.isosport.com/en/categories/isospeed

https://crownplastics.com/products/

Hope that helps.

 

[r00kie]

This is still ridiculous. I bet switching to ds would cost less than 10 bucks per pair of skis. I dont know one customer who would say to a shop owner:

“GEE WIZ, ILL TAKE THE 500$ SKI WITH A SHITTY BASE THAT DOESNT GLIDE WELL INSTEAD OF THE 510$ SKI WITH THE MOST DURABLE, FASTEST GLIDING BASE IN THE WORLD; THAT WAY I CAN SAVE 10$ I CAN SPEND ON A GATORADE TO DRINK WHEN IM THIRSTY FROM HIKING A TRAVERSE BECAUSE MY COCKSUCKING SKIS DONT GLIDE FOR SHIT.”

who cares what the total cost is. The main reason im regarded as such a troll is bc people continue to fail at making an incredibly reasonable person look unreasonable.

Guy who built a ski company from the ground up vs. boy with a gimmick microscope and google. Taking the guy who built the company everytime. You don't know as much as you think you know dolan. Let it lie.

 

[dolanslebensraum]

I believe most info you are looking for can be reviewed on their websites. Here are some places if you want to start reading them.

https://www.isosport.com/en/categories/isospeed

https://crownplastics.com/products/

Hope that helps.

From crown plastics site :

”

A higher molecular weight version of our standard product, DuraSurf™ 4001 takes an already industry-best durability to an even greater level. Without a doubt the toughest material on the hill, DuraSurf™ 4001 is the choice of the most extreme riders!

As the leader and driving force behind the colored base phenomenon, DuraSurf™ 4001 is currently available in over 130 Pantone colors, with complete Pantone color matching capability available including fluorescents and metallics.”

the download on ds 4001 only showed a few stats such as molecular mass tensile modulus and %crystallinity.

Somewhat helpful, but to really get into the engineering and see why durasurf is so good you would need to get your hands alot dirtier with some true insider knowledge.

if crown or iso have released info beyond simple statistics id love to read it, but i doubt they would do that bc it would be shooting themselves in the foot.

 

[dolanslebensraum]

Guy who built a ski company from the ground up vs. boy with a gimmick microscope and google. Taking the guy who built the company everytime. You don't know as much as you think you know dolan. Let it lie.

You sound like the assholes in “the big short” who tell mike burry they dont believe him because the well known authority figures on tv said that the housing market was stable.

if you find my post unreasonable then tell my why or shut up with your appeal to authority.

 

[r00kie]

You sound like the assholes in “the big short” who tell mike burry they dont believe him because the well known authority figures on tv said that the housing market was stable.

if you find my post unreasonable then tell my why or shut up with your appeal to authority.

You told someone they need more "insider knowledge" when that person is as insider as they come lol. If you can't see how over your head you are then idk what to yell ya. If anything watching you get buried in this thread has been entertaining.

 

[dolanslebensraum]

You told someone they need more "insider knowledge" when that person is as insider as they come lol. If you can't see how over your head you are then idk what to yell ya. If anything watching you get buried in this thread has been entertaining.

If you think the simple specs of a base material and some claims about millions of metric tonnes of base material costing billions in shipping costs represent enough insider knowledge to figure out how to build the exact same base material in your garage youre on bath salts.

 

[Non_State_Actor]

This is still ridiculous. I bet switching to ds would cost less than 10 bucks per pair of skis. I dont know one customer who would say to a shop owner:

“GEE WIZ, ILL TAKE THE 500$ SKI WITH A SHITTY BASE THAT DOESNT GLIDE WELL INSTEAD OF THE 510$ SKI WITH THE MOST DURABLE, FASTEST GLIDING BASE IN THE WORLD; THAT WAY I CAN SAVE 10$ I CAN SPEND ON A GATORADE TO DRINK WHEN IM THIRSTY FROM HIKING A TRAVERSE BECAUSE MY COCKSUCKING SKIS DONT GLIDE FOR SHIT.”

who cares what the total cost is. The main reason im regarded as such a troll is bc people continue to fail at making an incredibly reasonable person look unreasonable.

If the Atomic sales figure from above is correct at 600,000 multiply that by $10 and give me the answer. Nobody is saying that ISO makes crap base material or that it's slow. They said different companies place different values on certain performance characteristics of different base materials for different skis and that ON3P places the most value on durability and chooses the Durasurf 4001 for this reason.

 

[iggyskier]

Somewhat helpful, but to really get into the engineering and see why durasurf is so good you would need to get your hands alot dirtier with some true insider knowledge.

if crown or iso have released info beyond simple statistics id love to read it, but i doubt they would do that bc it would be shooting themselves in the foot.

To be specific, what sort of additional information are you looking for here? Like.....that Durasurf uses rolling-sinter machines (completely one of a kind) and that ISOSPORT uses presses (also likely one of a kind, but I don't know for sure)? Or are you wanting to know UHMW supplier, pigment supplier, heat time, heat temp, blem rate, COG, annual output, etc?

Proprietary info from these two suppliers is going to remain that way (as it should), so the next best source of info is going to be manufactures like [tag=9712]@link80[/tag] at Moment, [tag=17763]@JLev[/tag] at J Skis, and myself who use their materials and work with the suppliers. If the limited info we have - which is of course limited in our role as customers of these companies - isn't of interest then that is fine, but we're all you have on the manufacturing end.

You sound like the assholes in “the big short” who tell mike burry they dont believe him because the well known authority figures on tv said that the housing market was stable.

Can you complete your analogy for me - I am the "well known authority figure on tv". What, in this conversation, is the collapsing housing market? Please be specific if you would.

If you think the simple specs of a base material and some claims about millions of metric tonnes of base material costing billions in shipping costs represent enough insider knowledge to figure out how to build the exact same base material in your garage youre on bath salts.

Is the goal to...become a ski base manufacture?

At some point here the goalposts need to hold steady. You asked why some brands don't use 4001. I stated a variety of reasons from cost, supply, glide, wax retention, finish quality, additional weight, etc. It also explained why we use 4001 - though if it wasn't around, there are most certainly ISOSPORT bases I would use and find more than adequate. Both are great suppliers.

Then you asked how much it might cost a manufacturing like Atomic to incorporate Crown out of OH vs ISOSPORT out of Austria. I explained why it would cost millions of dollars to do over their existing material in terms of transport costs alone - under the assumption that cost was the factor preventing them from using it (which it is not - they choose the base they feel is right for their skis).

The shop scenario you presented where a $10 increase in Cost of Goods translates to a direct $10 increase in cost to the consumer is not how business works in reality, particularly in large businesses that have distribution and dealer networks.

So I'm just curious what your end goal in terms of knowledge and understanding is here - as I'm legit trying to help you get there.

 

[BigPurpleSkiSuit]

Pretty sure you've been the object of possibly one of the more successful troll jobs I've seen in a fair bit. Not even the most intense gearheads I know have tries to look this far into base material for basically no reason.

3 questions I and almost every other skier have when it comes to bases:

1: Is it fast

2: Is it durable

3: Should I wax it and how often

This is just over the top for no reason at all.

To be specific, what sort of additional information are you looking for here? Like.....that Durasurf uses rolling-sinter machines (completely one of a kind) and that ISOSPORT uses presses (also likely one of a kind, but I don't know for sure)? Or are you wanting to know UHMW supplier, pigment supplier, heat time, heat temp, blem rate, COG, annual output, etc?

Proprietary info from these two suppliers is going to remain that way (as it should), so the next best source of info is going to be manufactures like [tag=9712]@link80[/tag] at Moment, [tag=17763]@JLev[/tag] at J Skis, and myself who use their materials and work with the suppliers. If the limited info we have - which is of course limited in our role as customers of these companies - isn't of interest then that is fine, but we're all you have on the manufacturing end.

Can you complete your analogy for me - I am the "well known authority figure on tv". What, in this conversation, is the collapsing housing market? Please be specific if you would.

Is the goal to...become a ski base manufacture?

At some point here the goalposts need to hold steady. You asked why some brands don't use 4001. I stated a variety of reasons from cost, supply, glide, wax retention, finish quality, additional weight, etc. It also explained why we use 4001 - though if it wasn't around, there are most certainly ISOSPORT bases I would use and find more than adequate. Both are great suppliers.

Then you asked how much it might cost a manufacturing like Atomic to incorporate Crown out of OH vs ISOSPORT out of Austria. I explained why it would cost millions of dollars to do over their existing material in terms of transport costs alone - under the assumption that cost was the factor preventing them from using it (which it is not - they choose the base they feel is right for their skis).

The shop scenario you presented where a $10 increase in Cost of Goods translates to a direct $10 increase in cost to the consumer is not how business works in reality, particularly in large businesses that have distribution and dealer networks.

So I'm just curious what your end goal in terms of knowledge and understanding is here - as I'm legit trying to help you get there.

**This post was edited on May 18th 2020 at 1:59:18am

 

[fghtoffyrdmns]

armada edges and sidewalls are absolute TRASHHHHH tho

From what ive read the durasurf 4001 bases on on3ps isnt as bulletproof as armadas s7 bases. It seems armada went for a sintered material thats a bit slower than 4001 but makes up for it by being tougher. And edge wise both armada and 0n3p seem to get great reviews.

the point being—armadas you can score for alot cheaper than on3ps. On3ps are good, but imo park skis should not be as costly as 0n3ps.

 

[iggyskier]

Pretty sure you've been the object of possibly one of the more successful troll jobs I've seen in a fair bit. Not even the most intense gearheads I know have tries to look this far into base material for basically no reason.

3 questions I and almost every other skier have when it comes to bases:

1: Is it fast

2: Is it durable

3: Should I wax it and how often

This is just over the top for no reason at all.

View attachment 964695

**This post was edited on May 18th 2020 at 1:59:18am

100%. I've most definitely considered this, and stated as such in the other thread. For the record, though, I did bring this on (I'm enjoying it).

The evidence that makes me think, possibly, not troll:

https://www.newschoolers.com/member/DolanReloaded.261198/Threads

Troll or not, this is commitment. Obviously Covid increased pacing but it was still impressive pre Covid. There is some quality in here too - which at this volume is hard.

We march on.

 

[Swandog7]

Ive never ridden armadas but I’ve seen some pretty fucked up bases by them. I’ve literally tried to really fuck up my ON3P bases in the past and the bases didn’t even budge. Without a doubt most durable bases out there it’s insane.

**This post was edited on May 17th 2020 at 2:00:58am

Bought Bdogs this year to see the Armada hype. My bases got thrashed and dry out very quickly. Pretty dissapointed. From experience, my Moments, 4Frnt (also a surprise to me), and Icelantics have all held up much better, in that order. I would say the Moments (Durasurf4001) outperformed every other ski I've ridden so far in terms of base quality.

 

[SFBv420.0]

iggy mansplains ski manufacturing to the doltinator pretty well

probs why he and on3p have great cred in both dentist and skittletard land

2/12 decades of techin haqs taught me

Dolton your lame ass don't need rocket science durabases

youre lame ass just needs to ski steeper terrain and spend less time e-chicken chokin

 

[Celery]

My guy what is up with you and armadas s7 bases.

From what ive read the durasurf 4001 bases on on3ps isnt as bulletproof as armadas s7 bases. It seems armada went for a sintered material thats a bit slower than 4001 but makes up for it by being tougher. And edge wise both armada and 0n3p seem to get great reviews.

the point being—armadas you can score for alot cheaper than on3ps. On3ps are good, but imo park skis should not be as costly as 0n3ps.

 

[dolanslebensraum]

To be specific, what sort of additional information are you looking for here? Like.....that Durasurf uses rolling-sinter machines (completely one of a kind) and that ISOSPORT uses presses (also likely one of a kind, but I don't know for sure)? Or are you wanting to know UHMW supplier, pigment supplier, heat time, heat temp, blem rate, COG, annual output, etc?

Proprietary info from these two suppliers is going to remain that way (as it should), so the next best source of info is going to be manufactures like [tag=9712]@link80[/tag] at Moment, [tag=17763]@JLev[/tag] at J Skis, and myself who use their materials and work with the suppliers. If the limited info we have - which is of course limited in our role as customers of these companies - isn't of interest then that is fine, but we're all you have on the manufacturing end.

Can you complete your analogy for me - I am the "well known authority figure on tv". What, in this conversation, is the collapsing housing market? Please be specific if you would.

Is the goal to...become a ski base manufacture?

At some point here the goalposts need to hold steady. You asked why some brands don't use 4001. I stated a variety of reasons from cost, supply, glide, wax retention, finish quality, additional weight, etc. It also explained why we use 4001 - though if it wasn't around, there are most certainly ISOSPORT bases I would use and find more than adequate. Both are great suppliers.

Then you asked how much it might cost a manufacturing like Atomic to incorporate Crown out of OH vs ISOSPORT out of Austria. I explained why it would cost millions of dollars to do over their existing material in terms of transport costs alone - under the assumption that cost was the factor preventing them from using it (which it is not - they choose the base they feel is right for their skis).

The shop scenario you presented where a $10 increase in Cost of Goods translates to a direct $10 increase in cost to the consumer is not how business works in reality, particularly in large businesses that have distribution and dealer networks.

So I'm just curious what your end goal in terms of knowledge and understanding is here - as I'm legit trying to help you get there.

Im done with this thread. If you think adding 10 bucks to the cost of a ski (which includes all extra costs of shipping and machining bases, unless we just continue to sit here jacking ourselves off to some retardedly inflated figures) in order to give the customer the best base available doesnt make business sense, theres no point in continuing this discussion.

Either admit other bases in europe are as good as ds 4001 or admit the whole ski industry is stupid for not adopting ds4001 bases.

you cant choose both, which is what you seem to be trying to do.

 

[GrandThings]

Im done with this thread. If you think adding 10 bucks to the cost of a ski (which includes all extra costs of shipping and machining bases, unless we just continue to sit here jacking ourselves off to some retardedly inflated figures) in order to give the customer the best base available doesnt make business sense, theres no point in continuing this discussion.

Either admit other bases in europe are as good as ds 4001 or admit the whole ski industry is stupid for not adopting ds4001 bases.

you cant choose both, which is what you seem to be trying to do.

What about both bases?

One on each ski?

 

[CatdickBojangles]

I’m going to start a kickstarter to buy Dolan a pair of ON3Ps so he can feel the difference in bases and take microscope pics of them. There’s a good reason ON3Ps are held in such high regard. Because they fucking earned it. I doubt I’ll ever buy another brand of skis that’s how well these ski. My dollos don’t even come close in any areas to my jefferys.

 

[r00kie]

Thread Recap

Page 1: basic answers,nothing new

Page 2: Jason defends his brand and explains how sponsoring athletes works

Page 3: Scott kills a troll

10/10 great thread so far.

 

[iggyskier]

Either admit other bases in europe are as good as ds 4001 or admit the whole ski industry is stupid for not adopting ds4001 bases.

you cant choose both, which is what you seem to be trying to do.

Are you a Sith?

I’m going to start a kickstarter to buy Dolan a pair of ON3Ps so he can feel the difference in bases and take microscope pics of them. There’s a good reason ON3Ps are held in such high regard. Because they fucking earned it. I doubt I’ll ever buy another brand of skis that’s how well these ski. My dollos don’t even come close in any areas to my jefferys.

He doesn't need to buy skis. I'll gladly send him a base sample + samples of some ISO. Just tell me where to mail it.

 

[SofaKingSick]

Page 2: Jason defends his brand and explains how sponsoring athletes works

that story was definitely not "how sponsoring athletes works" lmao. kind of surprised that response didn't get much feedback beyond the up and down votes

 

[CalumSKI]

Im done with this thread. If you think adding 10 bucks to the cost of a ski (which includes all extra costs of shipping and machining bases, unless we just continue to sit here jacking ourselves off to some retardedly inflated figures) in order to give the customer the best base available doesnt make business sense, theres no point in continuing this discussion.

Either admit other bases in europe are as good as ds 4001 or admit the whole ski industry is stupid for not adopting ds4001 bases.

you cant choose both, which is what you seem to be trying to do.

Watching you speak lowers my iq

 

[beat]

that story was definitely not "how sponsoring athletes works" lmao. kind of surprised that response didn't get much feedback beyond the up and down votes

Not even worth replying to him, same explanation he's given in other threads regarding the situation. Hopefully it showed that he is no different than the big bad conglomerates he tries so hard to pretend he's not. He tried to shift the blame on Sander which is laughable to me but given how he treated the 4FRNT athletes it's not surprising.

 

[JAHBRADOR]

Watching you speak lowers my iq

Apparently quite badly.

 

[CalumSKI]

Apparently quite badly.

Wdym?

Are u calling me stupid?

**This post was edited on May 19th 2020 at 1:08:44am

 

[WoFIowz]

iggy mansplains ski manufacturing to the doltinator pretty well

probs why he and on3p have great cred in both dentist and skittletard land

2/12 decades of techin haqs taught me

Dolton your lame ass don't need rocket science durabases

youre lame ass just needs to ski steeper terrain and spend less time e-chicken chokin

I'm not quite sure what language this is but I think I agree!

Im done with this thread. If you think adding 10 bucks to the cost of a ski (which includes all extra costs of shipping and machining bases, unless we just continue to sit here jacking ourselves off to some retardedly inflated figures) in order to give the customer the best base available doesnt make business sense, theres no point in continuing this discussion.

Dolan it doesn't take a business degree to figure this shit out. If a ski company is selling 100,000 skis a year for $600 a pair, why would they spend another $10 per pair to improve the bases if it won't impact their sales? That's a waste of money.

The skis are still gonna sell just as well because sorry to break it to you but the largest ski gear purchasing demographic aren't gear nerds like most people on ski sites. We are the minority bud. The people who buy most of the stuff in mass production don't give a shit or have any clue what this or that variation in sintered bases are. Heck half the people probably don't even know the difference between sintered and extruded bases. That's your answer. You market to the masses, not the niche groups. That is unless you're a ski company like many of the ones repped on here who care about all that shit in every ski and the people who buy those skis buy for the technical specs (in addition to badass graphics).

Not saying the bigger companies don't care about that stuff, I'm just saying that some of these "core" ones pride themselves on making everything top notch and you better believe folks will pay for it.

 

[dolanslebensraum]

yeah guys, im just so fucking unreasonable arent i.

“500$ shitty base ski makes much more bizness sense than 510$ awesome base ski, hurr durr hurr hurr”

“Dolan you have to go to bizness skool to understand bizness... 10 dollars multibly by 10 million equals a gazillion dollars durr hurr...”

Jesus Christ

 

[r00kie]

yeah guys, im just so fucking unreasonable arent i.

“500$ shitty base ski makes much more bizness sense than 510$ awesome base ski, hurr durr hurr hurr”

“Dolan you have to go to bizness skool to understand bizness... 10 dollars multibly by 10 million equals a gazillion dollars durr hurr...”

Jesus Christ

You know what would really prove your ski building/business knowledge? Build skis. Lets see a pair. Maybe twig will do a roofbox review for us all.

 

[little1337]

100%. I've most definitely considered this, and stated as such in the other thread. For the record, though, I did bring this on (I'm enjoying it).

The evidence that makes me think, possibly, not troll:

https://www.newschoolers.com/member/DolanReloaded.261198/Threads

Troll or not, this is commitment. Obviously Covid increased pacing but it was still impressive pre Covid. There is some quality in here too - which at this volume is hard.

We march on.

Trolling in 2020 has evolved

 

[Bended_Toenail]

I started this thread to see if other people have huge opinions on what ski brands they like and dislike. It stayed on that topic briefly, and then turned into a conspiracy about J Skis and Sander, which Jason shut down.

It was then a passive-aggressive war between Iggy and Dolan about 10 dollars and Dolan's base fetish.

Jesus Christ ns has a mind of its own

 

[BigPurpleSkiSuit]

Honestly, I feel pretty satisfied by Jason's answer. It seems like a genuine miscommunication, and it's not like Sander had been saying, "Dude you have to pay me", and Jason was ignoring him or something at least according to Jason. It's not easy to tell anyone you're struggling financially, and it sounds like just an unfortunate turn of events to me.

 

[WoFIowz]

I started this thread to see if other people have huge opinions on what ski brands they like and dislike. It stayed on that topic briefly, and then turned into a conspiracy about J Skis and Sander, which Jason shut down.

It was then a passive-aggressive war between Iggy and Dolan about 10 dollars and Dolan's base fetish.

Jesus Christ ns has a mind of its own

I think it has been a pretty exciting thread so far. Nice job op!

 

[SofaKingSick]

Honestly, I feel pretty satisfied by Jason's answer. It seems like a genuine miscommunication, and it's not like Sander had been saying, "Dude you have to pay me", and Jason was ignoring him or something at least according to Jason. It's not easy to tell anyone you're struggling financially, and it sounds like just an unfortunate turn of events to me.

not looking to get into it, i'm just an outside observer, but he just never paid him, how is there any getting around that? they made plans, sander did work, and never got paid for it

i wouldn't accept "oh well he never called me to remind me to pay him something" as an excuse in personal life, never mind in a business setting

i have a feeling sander will just stay quiet and non-confrontational about it since it's not worth risking people's perception of him over what i'm sure was never going to be a big amount of money. just moved on to a real company and was done with it, i'd do the same thing

 

[BigPurpleSkiSuit]

Yeah, I hear you there. Also just an outsider too, but I find it hard to believe they hadn't discussed compensation at all, if that's the case, that isn't right either. But if you're an athlete of Sander's caliber moving to Jskis, youd have to know something about how you'll be compensated. I can definitely see why he'd be pissed off though because he put work into something and never saw any compensation at all. It's a shitty situation certainly but I cant really find either party at fault. Jskis cant pay like dynastar, and according to Jason, he would have done something if it had been brought up. At the end of the day, Jskis made a great ski with Sander and Giray's help, and Sander gets paid to ride with Dynastar.

not looking to get into it, i'm just an outside observer, but he just never paid him, how is there any getting around that? they made plans, sander did work, and never got paid for it

i wouldn't accept "oh well he never called me to remind me to pay him something" as an excuse in personal life, never mind in a business setting

i have a feeling sander will just stay quiet and non-confrontational about it since it's not worth risking people's perception of him over what i'm sure was never going to be a big amount of money. just moved on to a real company and was done with it, i'd do the same thing

 

[SofaKingSick]

but I cant really find either party at fault. Jskis cant pay like dynastar, and according to Jason, he would have done something if it had been brought up

it's been brought up now. why wouldn't jason attempt to resolve the situation and pay him?

no one ever thought it was going to be dynastar money but we're talking being paid vs not being paid here. i don't see how the situation got to the point it did but i really don't see how an adult businessman would try the "oh, you wanted money? you should have said so!" line and then do nothing further

again, i'm going on sparse info here but jason wrote a blurb on the last page and really didn't address these questions

 

[BigPurpleSkiSuit]

it's been brought up now. why wouldn't jason attempt to resolve the situation and pay him?

no one ever thought it was going to be dynastar money but we're talking being paid vs not being paid here. i don't see how the situation got to the point it did but i really don't see how an adult businessman would try the "oh, you wanted money? you should have said so!" line and then do nothing further

again, i'm going on sparse info here but jason wrote a blurb on the last page and really didn't address these questions

he said they get paid a royalty on a topsheet collab. If that wasn't brought up to Sander and he thought he'd be getting a promodel and it was presented as such that he would be paid when the ski was made, that's wrong. It's all a bit weird, and I really have no authority to speak on anyone's behalf, so I'm just gonna call it an unfortunate series of events.

 

[Mactonight]

Yeah, I hear you there. Also just an outsider too, but I find it hard to believe they hadn't discussed compensation at all, if that's the case, that isn't right either. But if you're an athlete of Sander's caliber moving to Jskis, youd have to know something about how you'll be compensated. I can definitely see why he'd be pissed off though because he put work into something and never saw any compensation at all. It's a shitty situation certainly but I cant really find either party at fault. Jskis cant pay like dynastar, and according to Jason, he would have done something if it had been brought up. At the end of the day, Jskis made a great ski with Sander and Giray's help, and Sander gets paid to ride with Dynastar.

Getting a pro ski would likely mean a pretty good amount of $, and would be a very enticing prospect for most pros. I feel like it's a pretty major mistake on the part of both J and Sander to not have sorted out how and when Sander would be compensated before he began doing anything for Jskis.

 

[GrandThings]

I'd also be interested to know if the pro-model/royalty deal is done in a contract or just done as an under the table "buddy deal". I.e are the dudes that ride for J Skis setup with some sort of deal where "ride our skis for X amount of years with only free gear as compensation then you'll get a pro model" or if it just "happens naturally" which I'm assuming leaves the riders in sort of an ambiguous state where they sort of ride for a company, but not really.

J Skis is the Primitive Skateboards of skiing.

 

[J_skis]

it's been brought up now. why wouldn't jason attempt to resolve the situation and pay him?

no one ever thought it was going to be dynastar money but we're talking being paid vs not being paid here. i don't see how the situation got to the point it did but i really don't see how an adult businessman would try the "oh, you wanted money? you should have said so!" line and then do nothing further

again, i'm going on sparse info here but jason wrote a blurb on the last page and really didn't address these questions

Welp, for anyone who actually wants really specific facts and timelines, here ya go. I just referenced all of the dates/quotes since I still have all these emails, unlike Hillary...

November 2017: Sander hits us up looking for a "lifelong relationship with a brand as an athlete/representative" with a thorough overview of himself and proposal as to what we has looking for. Jason and myself (Taylor, Marketing/Team Manager) had an awesome phone conversation with him in which we were very upfront that we don't have the financial means to pay athletes outright, but that there was potential to get royalties for a graphic in the future or budgets for certain projects depending on the proposals for those. We end up deciding on a product based relationship to start in which we give him gear in exchange for skiing content. We send Sander tons of gear including skis, bindings, poles, bags, clothes, etc that he's super hyped on.

December 2018: Sander proposes that can make a bigger, stiffer version of The Friend ski he was on, specifically because he had just been invited to Kings & Queens of Corbet's and needed something beefier. The timeline was too tight to get a prototype to him in time for that unfortunately, but it's a ski Giray and our engineer Francois had wanting to do for a while so we decided to start developing it and immediately put a ton of our time and resources into it.

February 2018: We spent the last 8 weeks designing, prototyping, testing and refining a brand-new version of The Friend ski through 3 rounds of prototypes, taking advice from Giray and Sander along the way. It was extremely stressful and expensive to get it done on such a quick timeline, but the final product was awesome and we decided it was done enough to take it to magazine tests. Sander joins us at Powder Week and gets the meet the whole crew. We had a kick ass time, Francois showed Sander some behind the scenes of what goes into designing a ski, and Jason verbally promises Sander a promodel graphic for the following season that he would make royalties on.

March 2018: Sander wants to start producing a new web series called #SendingWithSander so we help him brand it, market it and pay our video editor/animator to create a logo and intro for it. He pitched us a 5 (with a tentative 6th) episode series to start and we were all super stoked on the idea. We received two episodes and pushed them via social, YouTube and email linking to Jskis.com

May 2018: We hear from Powder that the new Friend ski that Sander aided in designing is winning "Ski of the Year" and everyone is super super stoked. It's around this time that Jason tells Sander we only had a spot for 1 Friend graphic in the coming line because the quantity is still really small (around 300 pair) but promises that we still have a pro model graphic for him on the radar and are considering doing it as a late-season release once we have more time to get something really awesome made and space in the line for it.

June 2018: Sander and I didn't talk much except for a text here or there. He told me he was working a construction gig in Utah. He brings up that he has a lot of awesome footage and would like to chat with Jason about potentially getting a ski graphic going because it would be awesome to get some compensation. I told him to give us a call but he was super busy so we never actually got on the phone and discussed it further.

July 2018: I had totally forgotten about this until looking through my texts now, but Sander and I had chatted about graphic stuff and he was bummed about not having one to launch and start getting compensation. We came to an understanding about the realities of timelines and the ski business but it was definitely on me to not realize that this might have been more of an issue than it seemed at the time - really good learning experience.

September 2018: Sander sends me a season edit from last year. We had a verbal agreement (now using contracts with all athletes) that it would have been great for him to do some intermittent posting over the Summer/Fall but all he posted was a few photos of himself on his old ski sponsors so it's nice to get some content. Sander, J and I talk on the phone and get him all setup with gear for the coming season, which was over $7,000 in gear.

October 2018: Sander sends us a proposal for a $3k worth of new camera gear because he was going to be doing a lot of self-filming this season. Jason and I are a bit skeptical since #SendingWithSander fell through and we hadn't gotten much content yet. We get on the phone with him and decide that it would be best to start small and see how it goes, then work up to better gear. We decide that $1k is the budget and wait for a new proposal from him (we later found out it only got sent to Jason, not me, who assumed that I would be taking care of it since it's my job. Another miscommunication).

At this point I also help round up of all of Sander's social media and email performance for us so that he can use these in proposals to outerwear companies.

Jason is also fully invested in Roll With A Pro at this point and keeps reassuring Sander that he'll be making big money on this platform in no time. This was definitely not the right move since Sander was a J athlete and we should have been treating the relationship as if the other thing didn't exist. That's like saying "oh, you already have another job so I don't need to pay you here." Definitely a mistake we learned from.

December 2018: Sander asks me for a ski bag because he's going on a trip to Japan and promises a lot of content from the trip.

January 2019: Sander sends us an email from Japan saying that he received an offer from Dynastar with immediate salary and travel budget while in Japan and had no choice but to accept. He starts posting content on Dynastar skis. We go back and forth by email a few times and then hopped on a long phone call with him to chat about things and see what went wrong. It really fucking sucked because Sander was so fun to work with and had become a friend to me. At the end of it we decided that there were a lot of miscommunications along the way the lead to some resentment. It was definitely a learning experience for me as a young team manager to be more upfront and communicative with athletes. All athletes now sign contracts so that both parties have something to point to if they feel as though the other party isn't coming through on what was promised of them.

February 2019: Sander sells all of the brand-new skis I had sent him for the season. We had told him to keep them and do what he wanted with them, so hopefully this made up for some of what he believed we owed him.

May 2020: Everyone is bored in quarantine and has too much time to speculate, so I (who also has way too much time in quarantine) decide to take a trip down memory lane.

TLDR: The relationship between J skis and Sander fell apart due to multiple miscommunications. We've definitely learned a lot from this experience and are now using different practices to have better relationships with athletes.

 

[J_skis]

I'd also be interested to know if the pro-model/royalty deal is done in a contract or just done as an under the table "buddy deal". I.e are the dudes that ride for J Skis setup with some sort of deal where "ride our skis for X amount of years with only free gear as compensation then you'll get a pro model" or if it just "happens naturally" which I'm assuming leaves the riders in sort of an ambiguous state where they sort of ride for a company, but not really.

J Skis is the Primitive Skateboards of skiing.

Pro model/royalty deals just sorta come to be. We never start a relationship with an athlete promising a topsheet graphic, it just sort of happens when the athlete embodies the brand and has a really rad idea to get their personality into a ski.

Royalties are paid out quarterly and are based on a $ amount per ski sold.

Any athletes that are getting free gear sign contracts (this started last season) and it's been a huge help in both the athletes and the brand upstanding their roll and what they are responsible for to the other party.

 

[WoFIowz]

To all the naysayers throughout this and other threads; as a non-owner of j skis and an outsider, this sounds like a very good explanation and anyone who still doubts it can seriously take your confirmation bias and dig a hole in the sand.

 

[PowTron]

It’s amazing at times to see the lack of understanding about the ski industry from so many people infatuated with said ski industry.

Showing my Empathy Level 5000 from over here, Scott and Taylor. Keep up the good fight.

 

[holytoast]

Yeah sadly. Shit rips apart so easily. I like the brand but fuck.

 

[GrandThings]

Pro model/royalty deals just sorta come to be. We never start a relationship with an athlete promising a topsheet graphic, it just sort of happens when the athlete embodies the brand and has a really rad idea to get their personality into a ski.

Royalties are paid out quarterly and are based on a $ amount per ski sold.

Any athletes that are getting free gear sign contracts (this started last season) and it's been a huge help in both the athletes and the brand upstanding their roll and what they are responsible for to the other party.

Not to suck my own dick too much, but seems like I kinda hit the nail on the head and the Sander issues arose out of miscommunication and a lack of legal documentation about when and what would qualify him for compensation. Sounds like ya'll learned your lesson tho...

Admittedly I've been one of the more critical posters about J skis (the brand in general is just not my cup of tea, and for someone who loves ski-shops I think the direct-to-consumer model is a bit tough) but I do have a fuck ton of respect for how willing ya'll are to come on here and respond to controversy and stand up for the brand.

 

[hoodratz47]

What the fuck are you trying to say here

iggy mansplains ski manufacturing to the doltinator pretty well

probs why he and on3p have great cred in both dentist and skittletard land

2/12 decades of techin haqs taught me

Dolton your lame ass don't need rocket science durabases

youre lame ass just needs to ski steeper terrain and spend less time e-chicken chokin

 

[SofaKingSick]

emails, unlike Hillary...

Jason verbally promises Sander a promodel graphic for the following season that he would make royalties on

but promises that we still have a pro model graphic for him on the radar and are considering doing it as a late-season release

and would like to chat with Jason about potentially getting a ski graphic going because it would be awesome to get some compensation.

July 2018: I had totally forgotten about this until looking through my texts now, but Sander and I had chatted about graphic stuff and he was bummed about not having one to launch and start getting compensation.

We decide that $1k is the budget and wait for a new proposal from him (we later found out it only got sent to Jason, not me, who assumed that I would be taking care of it since it's my job. Another miscommunication).

Jason [...] keeps reassuring Sander that he'll be making big money on this platform in no time

All athletes now sign contracts so that both parties have something to point to if they feel as though the other party isn't coming through on what was promised of them.

TLDR: The relationship between J skis and Sander fell apart due to multiple miscommunications. We've definitely learned a lot from this experience and are now using different practices to have better relationships with athletes.

respect for responding in full but you guys honestly sound like total clowns

that's great that you guys are selling $600-$750 skis and are just now in 2020 thinking to maybe use contracts since apparently your verbal agreements can't be counted on

extra negative points for the irrelevant Trump catchphrase, jesus christ. sounds like those red hats you guys made might not have really been a joke huh?

 

[Bended_Toenail]

respect for responding in full but you guys honestly sound like total clowns

that's great that you guys are selling $600-$750 skis and are just now in 2020 thinking to maybe use contracts since apparently your verbal agreements can't be counted on

extra negative points for the irrelevant Trump catchphrase, jesus christ. sounds like those red hats you guys made might not have really been a joke huh?

How many other brands of skis even have an Internet presence like that of J skis. Ar least they had a response that cleared things up for everyone.

I think what they said makes sense, but a contract would have been a good Idea

 

[J_skis]

Not to suck my own dick too much, but seems like I kinda hit the nail on the head and the Sander issues arose out of miscommunication and a lack of legal documentation about when and what would qualify him for compensation. Sounds like ya'll learned your lesson tho...

Admittedly I've been one of the more critical posters about J skis (the brand in general is just not my cup of tea, and for someone who loves ski-shops I think the direct-to-consumer model is a bit tough) but I do have a fuck ton of respect for how willing ya'll are to come on here and respond to controversy and stand up for the brand.

Thanks man, we were very open when this issue happened a year and a half ago that it arose from miscommunications along the lines. A lot of athletes really enjoyed the verbal agreements since it was different from their other sponsors who had tons of expectations of them, we want people to do their own thing, but obviously that doesn't work with higher profile guys like Sander.

I totally agree that ski shops are necessary and essential in skiing because of the service they offer and the ease of getting people into the sport, but that's also not saying change and innovation is good as well. If we were to sell via the traditional method (reps, shops) the break even point is around 25,000 pair per season, whereas for us it's around 3,500. This allows us to have a really lean, fun company and do what we want without the risk of becoming a major force. We're still extremely small and intend to keep it this way.

 

[J_skis]

respect for responding in full but you guys honestly sound like total clowns

that's great that you guys are selling $600-$750 skis and are just now in 2020 thinking to maybe use contracts since apparently your verbal agreements can't be counted on

extra negative points for the irrelevant Trump catchphrase, jesus christ. sounds like those red hats you guys made might not have really been a joke huh?

Hahaha obviously we like to do things differently. This whole brand was started on the premise that skiing is taken too seriously nowadays (this thread being a solid example) and our goal is to liven things up. That was our approach with athletes too, no serious commitment, just here's your skis, send us content, and go have fun. A lot of athletes enjoyed that since it was different from the restrictions a lot of sponsors put in their contracts. Even now the contracts are more-so guidelines of what both sides should expect and hold the other party accountable for.

As for the email comment... it's a joke. It's funny. Lighten up. The fact that the media has been talking these emails for FOUR YEARS is insane, why can't we pick on that?

 

[danbrown]

What the fuck are you trying to say here

iggy mansplains ski manufacturing to the doltinator pretty well

- Scott/Iggyskier/owner of ON3P explains the ski manufacturing process to DolanReloaded in a manner that is thorough and easily understood.

probs why he and on3p have great cred in both dentist and skittletard land

- That's probably why Scott and ON3P are highly revered on TGR and on NS

2/12 decades of techin haqs taught me

Dolton your lame ass don't need rocket science durabases

- Working as a ski tech for 25+ years has taught him that you don't need some fancy ski bases that Dolan is obsessed with

youre lame ass just needs to ski steeper terrain and spend less time e-chicken chokin

- Dolan just needs to ski steeper terrain and stop being a jerkoff on the internet

 

[black]

What the fuck are you trying to say here

its ok just ignore it, been on NS for years and he hasn't once posted anything remotely coherent and when called out on it he pulls the "I'm a vet" card and other irrelevant bullshit