Womens pipe beef

cheener12

Active member
http://freeskier.com/stories/insider-outside-raw-take-2015-x-games-womens-halfpipe-final

At 9:21 p.m., Eastern Time, my stream on ESPN3.com showed Maddie Bowman landing her first run. Maddie, with three runs to go, hadn’t looked particularly nervous before the run. And afterwards, she didn’t have any sort of amazing emotional reaction. With no other skiers looking like they would challenge her, the contest was over. As three-peat champion, her first as a 21-year-old legal bar-patron; she’s maybe going to have the best X Games of anyone in 2015, with three nights to enjoy Aspen still to come. It’s a well deserved victory, but still one fraught with problems.

The women’s halfpipe finals at X Games got off to an unbelievably bad start. After a lead segment that mostly mentioned Shaun White, ESPN cut back to the women by showing some silly DJ onscreen while the announcer, Uncle E—he of the funny hats and not so funny jokes—commented on the “harem of goddesses” surrounding DJ Dorky. Do they know what that word means in a literal sense? Do they know what its connotations are? How does anyone at ESPN allow that? I’ll move on, because, well, wow.

I’m going to cause more problems though, because this was not a good ski contest either. Sure, Maddie executed her runs well, there were a few new tricks and a couple other ladies threw good runs; in rah-rah tradition I should talk about the skiing. But honestly, if you dropped this contest into 2011, no one would be blown away, talking about “the future of the sport is now!!!” or any such excitement. The sport of women’s halfpipe just hasn’t progressed at a rapid clip and I would not be shocked if the organizers of X Games dropped women’s halfpipe altogether.

Now let me backtrack for a second and say a few things. First, I’m on drugs. I had ACL reconstruction surgery six days ago and I planned very carefully to reach peak narcotic-influence during the second run of the contest. Since I cannot be there, I’m going to write free-flowing and opinionated pieces during each of the five freeskiing event finals during 2015 X Games. This story was supposed to be the first. It was to be a train-of-thought diary of my night, a view-from-bed, stream of consciousness piece. Except that on top of the knee pain, I had a migraine last night. So I vomited during the contest (unrelated to the skiing, which, if boring, was not offensive), and spent the night hallucinating, moaning, thrashing around and generally miserable.

Second, I love these ladies and that they’re out there doing something that 99.9-percent of the world cannot do. They do not get enough credit for the toll it takes on their bodies and the imbalance between risk and reward. I’ve spent many days shooting photos with the ladies, because I think they deserve to be in ski industry magazines. I don’t gain a top financial payout, but I respect how tough and hard-working these women are.

Once the migraine broke this morning, I struggled back and forth with the realization that women’s halfpipe is not worth it. It’s not worth it to the spectators (and clearly then to the advertisers and TV production). And it’s not worth it to the skiers. For many years, I’ve been having these discussions. They ebb and flow.

Roz Groenewoud is one of the best women’s pipe skiers, one who could possibly rival Maddie. She fell on her first run and withdrew from the competition. Roz is tall and her body seems ill-fit to halfpipe skiing. Like Peter Olenick, her height creates a ton of leverage through the transition, especially on a backseat landing low in the tranny. It makes for frequent injuries. But Peter’s knee problems were an anomaly in men’s halfpipe, while Roz’s injuries seem commonplace. Sarah, Megan Gunning, Jen Hudak, Angeli VanLaanen, etc., etc. I remember the injuries and I watch each contest holding my breath, hoping no one gets injured.

Even the smallest injuries make women’s halfpipe a discipline defined more by attrition than by innovation. Every time someone ends up sidelined, whether for two weeks or two months, it is a detriment to progression throughout the whole sport. Would training or competing in smaller pipes reduce the injuries and help create more technically sound skiers? Will the cachet, coverage and prize money eventually drive enough athletes into the sport that it will become a marquee event? I’m not sure, but these are questions the entire ski industry should be addressing before someone in television production or some fat, rich fuck from FIS decides without our input.

As an anonymous source within the production of X told me his view of Maddie, “She knows she can do the same run, not even try to grab and still beat everyone because it is so much harder. We need Sarah back.” He mentioned other ladies who pushed the sport. To me, it’s time to push the halfpipe discipline in another way.

My proposal is to include a women’s ski rail contest in the next X Games. I see more progression on the rails from the ladies and I see far fewer major injuries. It would take some work convincing the powers that be, but it is worth taking steps (lower level comps, filming, a top level athlete organized comp) to put the power in our hands. In the long run, hopefully women’s halfpipe will escape its current plateau and push forward. But ’til then, let’s give some other women a visible segment day-in and day-out in terrain parks all over, with talented and visible pros like Maude Raymond, Kim Lamarre, Kaya Turski and even an underground scene—a chance to showcase their talent.
 
To quickly and vaguely sum up a rather long article, Nate says that women's pipe skiing just isn't progressing fast enough and he wouldn't be shocked if ESPN decided to drop the discipline at some point. If you took Maddie Bowman's gold medal run and did it in 2011, people wouldn't be saying that the run was out of this world. Look at men's pipe: in 2011, Kevin Rolland won with a great run- dub 12, sw 9, dub rodeo- but that run wouldn't get close to a podium today. Wise is throwing down right and left dub 12s, massive switch double, and a run that would be unheard of in 2011. Nate also talks about how the pipe just might be too big for women and injuries (Roz) is holding the sport back.

I do agree that women's pipe does need to progress more because there hasn't bee a dramatic improvement in trick difficulty, style, or amplitude over the past few years, but will it happen? Or is the pipe just too big and the risk of injury (or worse) too high for the ladies to do these bigger and better tricks?
 
Probably way too real for NS right now, but he's completely right. It's another symptom of the general problem with women's freeskiing: lack of a grassroots level. Hardly any girls ski, so those that do tend to win everything without trying much at all levels. Add the fact that pipe is generally the smallest discipline in freeskiing due to it's fundamental restrictiveness (same every single time) and gnar factor (less room for error) and it gets even worse.

I don't know how to fix it though...
 
If you don't like watching woman skiing then you're not as in love with skiing as you state you are. Seeing someone perform their best is amazing to look at. Whether it be a 5 or dub 12.

Woman's skiing doesn't get nearly as much respect as it should. Krotch made an excellent thread about woman's skiing and everyone on there hopped on their ego boost and stated that `yes we should' but now come X Games and one bloke writes an opinion piece and you're all going back to hating woman skiing.

ESPN won't pull woman's pipe. Can you imagine the controversy that would occur due to having men's pipe and not woman's pipe.
 
13306427:ChubbyBoy said:
If you don't like watching woman skiing then you're not as in love with skiing as you state you are. Seeing someone perform their best is amazing to look at. Whether it be a 5 or dub 12.

Woman's skiing doesn't get nearly as much respect as it should. Krotch made an excellent thread about woman's skiing and everyone on there hopped on their ego boost and stated that `yes we should' but now come X Games and one bloke writes an opinion piece and you're all going back to hating woman skiing.

ESPN won't pull woman's pipe. Can you imagine the controversy that would occur due to having men's pipe and not woman's pipe.

nah, it's fucking boring
 
The real problem is the lack of access to a superpipe. I would say 90% of resorts don't have one and will never have one. If more people had access to a superpipe, there would be more people involved therefore making progression faster because a small crowd won't push the sport if there is no one to compete with. I feel like pipe skiing is dieing.
 
13306436:gin said:
The real problem is the lack of access to a superpipe. I would say 90% of resorts don't have one and will never have one. If more people had access to a superpipe, there would be more people involved therefore making progression faster because a small crowd won't push the sport if there is no one to compete with. I feel like pipe skiing is dieing.

It's a lot more than 90% of resorts not having superpipe. I also think women should just compete in smaller pipes and on smaller jumps. The point that they are at they don't need the same jumps as men.
 
13306436:gin said:
The real problem is the lack of access to a superpipe. I would say 90% of resorts don't have one and will never have one. If more people had access to a superpipe, there would be more people involved therefore making progression faster because a small crowd won't push the sport if there is no one to compete with. I feel like pipe skiing is dieing.

If it's a lack of access how do you explain the progession on the men's side? It's not like there are men exclusive pipes out there.

If you were to argue financial and communal support you would have an argument but what you said isn't so.
 
They should just compete on smaller features. Kelly Sildaru is a top skier right now and will most likely be the best in a few years, she had to drop out of a comp because she wasnt heavy enough to carry speed into the bigger jumps. It makes sense
 
13306605:ABalls said:
They should just compete on smaller features. Kelly Sildaru is a top skier right now and will most likely be the best in a few years, she had to drop out of a comp because she wasnt heavy enough to carry speed into the bigger jumps. It makes sense

That's be unfair to the girls. Kelly is way too good.
 
Women sports are not of market value, so ESPN, the corporation they are, doesn't put a lot of investment in it. But why should they? If I wanted to watch people do 5s, 7s, with a few 9s I would go to my local resort and see it in person. There is nothing extreme (where x in x-games comes from) about women's ski pipe or slope style. When men are at least a decade ahead of the women in terms of progression, the idea of being extreme, is it really a question why a television station wouldn't want to waste their money to produce something less that 1 percent of people want to see? Wake up and smell the money. Showing women ski half pipe is like watching someone ride in the back of a cart with a horse pulling it. Yes you don't see it everyday, but when you step back and take it for what it really is, you no longer want to waste your time.
 
13306449:TOAST. said:
It's a lot more than 90% of resorts not having superpipe. I also think women should just compete in smaller pipes and on smaller jumps. The point that they are at they don't need the same jumps as men.

There are not a lot of girls in freeskiing, let alone pipe and I agree with you on a different course. I know some people get mad because it isn't "equal" but it just makes sense.
 
13306622:MNS said:
That's be unfair to the girls. Kelly is way too good.

13306686:MichaelMishima said:
Women sports are not of market value, so ESPN, the corporation they are, doesn't put a lot of investment in it. But why should they? If I wanted to watch people do 5s, 7s, with a few 9s I would go to my local resort and see it in person. There is nothing extreme (where x in x-games comes from) about women's ski pipe or slope style. When men are at least a decade ahead of the women in terms of progression, the idea of being extreme, is it really a question why a television station wouldn't want to waste their money to produce something less that 1 percent of people want to see? Wake up and smell the money. Showing women ski half pipe is like watching someone ride in the back of a cart with a horse pulling it. Yes you don't see it everyday, but when you step back and take it for what it really is, you no longer want to waste your time.

100%. X games at this point are ultimately about the money. The only reason women get equal payouts is because of equal rights, etc. Watching women's skiing is extremely boring. They are so far behind the men its crazy. Straight up...they SUCK. Thousand's of am's around the country could win 1st in the X games womens pipe event.

The viewership has gotta be so much lower ratings wise. Hopefully new groms like Kelly Sildaru, etc from the next generation are able to actually throw down decent park runs. The different body complexion argument can only go so far when they are light years behind.

Now womens racing on the other hand....that is some very intense skiing. Fun to watch and amazing athletes.
 
If you guys read, you'll see he does have a solution - a new rail-based event in place of women's pipe. I think that makes perfect sense, and would, for me, be far more entertaining.
 
I don't necessarily agree or disagree with this article, but as a women rail skier (seriously i hit rails 90% of the season) it would be rad to see it get more attention. I consider myself one of the 'underground' lady skiers. I don't compete in slope or pipe, but am still out there everyday filming and trying to progress the rail side of freeskiing. Bottom line- women are progressing more on rails than pipe. If you disagree, than fine.
 
13307215:brookepotter said:
I don't necessarily agree or disagree with this article, but as a women rail skier (seriously i hit rails 90% of the season) it would be rad to see it get more attention. I consider myself one of the 'underground' lady skiers. I don't compete in slope or pipe, but am still out there everyday filming and trying to progress the rail side of freeskiing. Bottom line- women are progressing more on rails than pipe. If you disagree, than fine.

I agree as well.

I think everyone is well aware that men dominate nearly every sport. It isn't up for debate, it isn't offensive to say, it just is what it is. If someone wants to get their back up about it, they're missing the point, because it isn't a remark about women being incapable, lacking skill, or having poor athleticism, it's just the result history, modern culture, and inherent biological differences between the sexes. It's fact, not a discriminatory offensive personal opinion.

But, say we were all to consider a bunch of mainstream sports that are accessible to everyone and well recognized throughout general population. Then say we were to consider the average of all the ratios of women's achieved excellence in these sports : to men's achieved excellence in these sports. Let's just give that number some arbitrary value 'n'. Where n
 
I agree as well.

I think everyone is well aware that men dominate nearly every sport. It isn't up for debate, it isn't offensive to say, it just is what it is. If someone wants to get their back up about it, they're missing the point, because it isn't a remark about women being incapable, lacking skill, or having poor athleticism, it's just the result history, modern culture, and inherent biological differences between the sexes. It's fact, not a discriminatory offensive personal opinion.

But, say we were all to consider a bunch of mainstream sports that are accessible to everyone and well recognized throughout general population. Then say we were to consider the average of all the ratios of women's achieved excellence in these sports : to men's achieved excellence in these sports. Let's just give that number some arbitrary value 'n'. Where n
 
, because women on average have not achieved the level of excellence (skill) that men have, in most given sports. Perhaps in one sport, they're 60% as good as men, or another sport they're 95% as good as men. We still see a trend of men having higher skills than women in these sports. And again, it isn't to offend. It isn't to undermine the work ethic of women, or suggest the idea of some inevitable glass ceiling for their potential and success.

So, everyone knows this and forms some idea of how well they expect women to perform in sports (although they are not always consciously aware of it), because theres somewhat of a trend. However, women's pipe skiing is a serious outlier in this trend of men being more skillful than women. Women's half pipe 'n' value is way lower than anyone might expect. I'm not going to explicitly assign even a guess at that number, because people tend to take things like that at face value and end up missing the bigger picture, or point that is being made. Which is, women's super pipe is exceptionally far behind in progression when compared to the general trends we see in other sports.

But for fucks sake people, don't take offence to this. Saying women aren't on the same level as men in super pipe is a RELATIVE statement. It isn't a jab at them saying that they suck at skiing pipe. All it's saying is that they aren't very good RELATIVE to the men. As in the EARTH is small (1.3 million times smaller) RELATIVE to the SUN, but we all consider the Earth to be fucking huge. We all consider female pipe skiers to be exceptional athletes with an amazing skills and ambition that command respect. Respect from anyone, regardless of their pipe skiing skills.

I think it's a great idea to change pipe into a rail contest. Think of the larger population they could draw from. Think of the competition that'd inspire. Think of the progression that'd result. Seriously, I don't know how so many people on Facebook reacted out against this article, it wasn't offensive. I thought it was pretty courteous.

...fuck, i really do anything to procrastinate before studying.
 
13307160:J.D. said:
If you guys read, you'll see he does have a solution - a new rail-based event in place of women's pipe. I think that makes perfect sense, and would, for me, be far more entertaining.

this would actually be really cool. I could see myself getting into this
 
Whereas pipe doesn't seem to be getting much better, what about slopestyle and rails?

It seems there are a few girls - Kaya Turski, Maggie Voisin, Kelly Sildaru, Maud e Raymond that pushed or are pushing the sport on that side a bit...at least more than pipe competitors. OP was right about pipe - there was barely anything that resembled a grab in that comp, but the few I've named above all actually have some style to their skiing, do grab and are progressing on the slope side. They may need a Kelly to really motivate them though. Switch 1080s, some off-axis tricks...sure, Zimmerman the only one bringing a double, but at least it sets a new high-water mark.

A rail specific contest could work if it was a few hits in a series rather than a typical rail jam format...maybe an on-mountain street-style type course with two lines, three hits?
 
Also, I have to say it is pretty lame if Maddie Bowman is just going to sit on those 9s and not progress any further. I mean I'm legitimately impressed by some of the park girls that actually do grab and get a little stylish. Maddie had it won on run 1 last night and did nothing to alter her run at all the next two runs. That's pretty sad...I get she practices it a thousand times and maybe you don't want to risk an injury, but geez.
 
im saying xgames should swap womens 'pipe with a street-style railjam, that'd be sweet. not nearly as much pressure on the girls' as far as having to progress the sport and it would probably be a super fun enjoyable event, i mean who doesn't love a good railjam?
 
I think it would be a great idea to have two size pipes the only reason I can't see it happening is logistics. Imagine being ESPN and having another pipe in a whole different area of aspen compared to the centralised event zone, having to setup that pipe and then having to have two sets of everything to run a pipe comp it just wouldn't work imo too much cost vs profit for them cos in the end that's what its about.

Nate's ideas great with a rail jam style event I would much rather see that than a shifty barely airing tail grab that seems to be a stock trick in a girls pipe run
 
How do we get them to focus on looking good?

Like everyone else, I don't think watching Maddie twirl her way down looks very good. We need some ladies doing simple styled out inverts and grabbing every trick. Focus on amplitude, style, and variety. I don't care that Maddie is spinning all 4 ways if it all looks like shit.

Remember when Mike Douglas first took Sarah Burke under his wing? Well I do. The first thing he made her do was start from the ground up and learn how to do a proper mute grab. Then he had her relearn all of her tricks with solid grabs.

Again, how do we get these ladies to focus on looking good?

Here are few examples event organizers can do to raise the bar:

two hit best trick contest, maybe this could work in conjunction with a rail jam.

smaller pipe

new judging criteria

bring back Sarah!!

Kelly Sildaru is starting to tease into the pipe, which can light a fire under some asses, but I'm more excited to see her dominate slope.
 
13306622:MNS said:
That's be unfair to the girls. Kelly is way too good.

If she's the best, then let her win. Seems to be unfair to Kelly right now. Making the features smaller so everyone could compete would be the definition of fair.
 
change the scoring to heavily weigh on style not just spinning like a top. id rather watch floaty grabbed cork 5's than pencil 9's. but meh. I say pick up where leaders like Sarah left off, smaller jumps for women, or fuck the womens division, make it really fucking equal and have big ass open divisions, men and women, double the prize purse. Either step up or GTFO.
 
13307881:Katrina said:
change the scoring to heavily weigh on style not just spinning like a top. id rather watch floaty grabbed cork 5's than pencil 9's. but meh. I say pick up where leaders like Sarah left off, smaller jumps for women, or fuck the womens division, make it really fucking equal and have big ass open divisions, men and women, double the prize purse. Either step up or GTFO.

this. You shouldn't be able to win without grabbing, I don't give a fuck if you did a 9 or not
 
I think a rail comp would be a good idea also. but the problem with that is, what if they don't progress in that either? what if it's the same old tricks time and time again like in the pipe. The argument about resorts not having a superpipe doesn't really hold true, because if that's the reason women don't progress then why do men progress? The amount of women that have access to a super pipe is the same as men.
 
13306427:ChubbyBoy said:
If you don't like watching woman skiing then you're not as in love with skiing as you state you are. Seeing someone perform their best is amazing to look at. Whether it be a 5 or dub 12.

Woman's skiing doesn't get nearly as much respect as it should. Krotch made an excellent thread about woman's skiing and everyone on there hopped on their ego boost and stated that `yes we should' but now come X Games and one bloke writes an opinion piece and you're all going back to hating woman skiing.

ESPN won't pull woman's pipe. Can you imagine the controversy that would occur due to having men's pipe and not woman's pipe.

you could not be more wrong, but i guess im just not a real skier then.
 
13306983:KravtZ said:
100%. X games at this point are ultimately about the money. The only reason women get equal payouts is because of equal rights, etc. Watching women's skiing is extremely boring. They are so far behind the men its crazy. Straight up...they SUCK. Thousand's of am's around the country could win 1st in the X games womens pipe event.

The viewership has gotta be so much lower ratings wise. Hopefully new groms like Kelly Sildaru, etc from the next generation are able to actually throw down decent park runs. The different body complexion argument can only go so far when they are light years behind.

Now womens racing on the other hand....that is some very intense skiing. Fun to watch and amazing athletes.

lolz
 
railjam is a great idea

right now the most notable progression in womens skiing (in my eyes) is happening with girls like kim and maude who are doing creative rail tricks with style.

women have been hitting rails on skis for as long as guys have, but if you were to take their footage from today and send it back in time (as in the article) I think people would be impressed by how good they look doing it. womens rail skiing is progressing past its awkward stages and their style is coming into its own.

when girls have good style its completely different and refreshing to watch - womens skateboarding is already there
 
One thing that we can't deny is how far ahead women's snowboarding is than women's skiing in the pipe. Elena Hight does doubles and Kelly Clark can send 1080s over 10 feet out. When people say there isn't more progression to be had on the women's side that isn't true, It's the ladies not wanting to step out of their comfort zone with new tricks if they can still get paid with last seasons run. Sadly this is why women's pipe skiing isn't worth watching.
 
13308394:Queen_Selassie said:
it's the ladies not wanting to step out of their comfort zone with new tricks if they can still get paid with last seasons run. Sadly this is why women's pipe skiing isn't worth watching.

Well you know it's also dangerous, someone did die.
 
I just don't think there is much to worry about. Ya sure it's kinda lame at the moment, but it'll come around. It ayana onozuka and janina kuzma are really exciting, Roz will always be good. It wasn't too long ago when kaya would win every slope event and it was boring to watch too. Then dara, maggie V, emilia, emma, tiril, julia, kelly etc all came along and its been more fun to watch. Just give it some time.
 
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