Women’s 130 flex ski boots
- Thread starter jps2.0
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GayWolf420
Active member
I'm not a woman so i can't speak, but i've too seen women ski in what one would consider a "mens" size or setup because ski manufacturers still act like girls can't bend skis and make everything softer than baby shit. More Female-lead R&D groups need to be more of a thing in the industry instead of a bunch of bros standing around a table.
**This post was edited on Dec 15th 2022 at 10:39:23pm
**This post was edited on Dec 15th 2022 at 10:39:23pm
Granby_killdozer
Active member
Oh wow, women in the outdoor community are complaining about some inane bullshit. How surprising...
Granby_killdozer
Active member
14491088:DeebieSkeebies said:
lmao so what you're saying is... women can buy the exact same products that men can??? and then just go use those "men's" products??? wowwwww what a crazy concept. maybe the ones who are good enough to warrant using "men's" equipment should just do that then and quit complaining
GayWolf420
Active member
14491093:Craw_Daddy said:lmao so what you're saying is... women can buy the exact same products that men can??? and then just go use those "men's" products??? wowwwww what a crazy concept. maybe the ones who are good enough to warrant using "men's" equipment should just do that then and quit complaining
Or you could also not give a shit and go back to being an incel without us knowing about it.
Non_State_Actor
Active member
14491094:DeebieSkeebies said:
My thoughts exactly.
Granby_killdozer
Active member
14491094:DeebieSkeebies said:
Lol am I making too much sense for you? I mean I just repeated what you said back to you. Women are using “men’s” equipment to meet their needs so what’s the issue? The boots don’t come in pink?
Also kinda weird that you’re concerned enough about my sex life to call me an incel… do you often find yourself discussing the celibacy of other men?
ASSholebomber22
Active member
I know a guy that buys woman boots because he's little. You don't see manlets getting assmad that the extreme outlier of a consumer isn't being considered.
Granby_killdozer
Active member
14491145:Ghini said:
Lol the fat chicks that fit the niche of having a 22.5 foot and the actual need for a 130 flex are NOT skinning up a damn mountain. Sorry but this isn’t actually an issue. It’s spoiled rich girls finding yet another thing to complain about.
14491160:Craw_Daddy said:
It's definitely an issue. many cuffs on mens boots ride too high, and race-stock boots come with thin, cold liners that are not appropriate for a lot of women. Couple that with a lack of options in strong touring boots, and its definitely a frustrating issue.
And this isnt just women bitching about the lack of options for certain skiers - tall people with big feet have a hell of a time with cuffs not fitting their legs very well.
There are a lot of women out there who absolutely TACO most womens boots in the shop.. They are not fat. They are just fit and athletic. While things have definitely gotten better, it's actually pretty shitty for anyone with a 21 or a 22 shell - of which there are far more people than you think you need those tiny sizes.
Is it the biggest issue in the world? hell no. It's trivial on the total spectrum... but Imagine if you walked into a ski shop and there was only one boot in your size and it wasnt stiff enough nor the right fit in general for you to feel confident spending money on and having a fitter try to magically fit them to you? That situation sucks, and it happens often enough that I'd consider it a problem. Guys rarely have this issue.
hi_vis360
Active member
14491119:ASSholebomber22 said:
I think the potential issue is that when a lot of women are forced to buy men's products, it makes men's products look more profitable to companies and discourages them from investing in and making high quality products for women. There are def more women riding men's gear than men riding women's gear. Seems like most ski companies are pretty avid about supporting women skiers these days though so idk
IMO everything should just be unisex, just different sizes. I heard a dumbass story on the radio where some woman farmers were saying they needed girl tractors with lighter attachments so they could use them more easily, lots of heavy equipment is designed for a strong 6' dude to use for sure but the solution is to just build smaller tractors, not fucking gendered tractors lmao. Same goes for boots I think
tomatonater
Member
Generally women have higher calf volume too, which makes getting in men’s boots designed for us chicken-legged fucks much harder. And the cuffs come up slightly higher than women’s. And the instep is, generally speaking, lower because our feet are different. Women can use men’s boots, but it would take a lot more work to get those boots to fit the majority of women.
14491168:hi_vis360 said:
Most women skiers I speak to would be very happy with this... about a decade ago, a lot of boot manufacturers were making smaller boots overly feminine and appealing hard to the girly-girl trends of the day... hot pink and fluffy looking liner tops and a whole bunch of other total bullshit. The most egregious offerings generally sold horribly even if they were decent boots.
Today, a lot of manufacturers have gone with a more muted greyscale tone for womens boots with a lot less hot pink and purple and shit. Youre seeing more just black, grey, and white... easy colours to coordinate with outfits for the fashion concious, while also being plain enough that women dont feel like theyre screaming LOOK AT ME I HAVE A VAGINA when theyre skiing. Women skiers just want to be seen as skiers.
The added benefit to the less frilly shit you see today, is that some of the offerings are so simple that they actually are still easy to sell to men, whereas dudes often wouldnt have been caught dead in the pink nightmares of the late 00's and early 2010s... I remember in 2019, I sold like, half of my womens Atomic Ultra 115s to dudes with smaller feet and they didnt even realize they were chicks boots because they were just grey or black with maybe a hint of orange or something.
jps2.0
Member
For the women out there that need 130 and above flex boots you can get “women’s “ World Cup level race boots in flex’s from 110 to 170 with a short cuff in sizes down to 21.5 for most brands
These boots are super narrow and require hours of boot fitting. They won’t be comfortable but if you genuinely need a performance ski boot they are there. Look at some of the fwt athletes on racing brands like atomic they are on race boots, men and women.
there is doesn’t seeem to be a women’s touring 130 boot but if you really need a 130 you probably would have to be using cast with tec inserts in race boots like many men’s boots
These boots are super narrow and require hours of boot fitting. They won’t be comfortable but if you genuinely need a performance ski boot they are there. Look at some of the fwt athletes on racing brands like atomic they are on race boots, men and women.
there is doesn’t seeem to be a women’s touring 130 boot but if you really need a 130 you probably would have to be using cast with tec inserts in race boots like many men’s boots
ASSholebomber22
Active member
All these paragraphs and not a single pink name lmao
![.[sanhedrin].](/data/avatars/m/44/44552.jpg?1745610448){kind=avatar}
.[sanhedrin].
Active member
Real question - aren’t smaller shell sizes also sized down to scale in the cuff? It doesn’t seem like it would be terribly difficult to do but for maybe like 100 potential customers that’s an expensive mold. We need Matt Manser [tag=134699]@onenerdykid[/tag] up in this thread for comment.
hemlockjibber8
Active member
My question is why the fuck does Dalbello not make a touring version of the low volume Chakra like the Lupo is to the Krypton? Why is their women's touring boot only in the mid volume AX? A 22mp women's foot is usually skinny af. That being said, dalbello can't get anything straight in their line ups so it makes sense.
Also, I can't get a Dynafit hoji or Radical in the 130 in 24.5. It's not just women, it's fringe products.
Also, I can't get a Dynafit hoji or Radical in the 130 in 24.5. It's not just women, it's fringe products.
onenerdykid
Active member
I was on the Big Stick Energy podcast last year discussing this very point, and it's not as easy as just making more 130 options in size 22 or 21. Every single ski boot brand struggles with this topic simply because the ROI doesn't exist on paper. Brands don't want to spend the money on double-digit unit sales. And every single year, I have to fight to keep these sizes/flexes alive.
These skiers absolutely exist and there needs to be products for them. The most important thing that people with small feet looking for stiff boots can do is speak with their local shops and tell them to bring in more options. Right now, retailers simply don't see the need and they therefore don't order the boots. And if brands don't get retail orders, then brands don't make the boots and no one gets them. It's as simple as that and this is what needs to happen. Everyone who needs a small, stiff boot needs to go into their local shop and tell them to order more small boots. Make your voices heard and get the retailers to notice you. The brands are waiting for retailer orders and its on the retailers to order them.
These skiers absolutely exist and there needs to be products for them. The most important thing that people with small feet looking for stiff boots can do is speak with their local shops and tell them to bring in more options. Right now, retailers simply don't see the need and they therefore don't order the boots. And if brands don't get retail orders, then brands don't make the boots and no one gets them. It's as simple as that and this is what needs to happen. Everyone who needs a small, stiff boot needs to go into their local shop and tell them to order more small boots. Make your voices heard and get the retailers to notice you. The brands are waiting for retailer orders and its on the retailers to order them.
Ghini
Active member
14491557:onenerdykid said:
Thank you Matt for responding here. I send Elizabeth Gerritzen your way as she was asking for a smaller high flex touring boot as well. Hope you can help her out one way or another.
I worked in a shop and also did the purchasing. You suggest that the shops need to order the boots but you also admit there is very little demand. That way the shops would carry all the risks plus there is a chance you make more than there is demand, if shops would follow your advice. The problem with that is that the shops do not know where these women are. The chance that there is a women that needs that boot is in their area is very very small. While worldwide you are pretty sure there is a certain demand. We sold and shipped worldwide online and because of that we would always sell some odd sizes because people we looking for them, often bought by other shops! If you as a brand make the boots, in the minimal amount needed to break even, and keep them on stock for shops to order I am sure you will sell them. As long as they are ready to ship out quick in different markets. A shop is happy to order them if they are sure they can fit it and sell it to a women that came in their shop. As a bootfitter myself I never had problems ordering a certain size of a certain boot if we needed it, after the whole proces you know what she needs. Boots are a service product, there is always work and it takes a ton of time. But if they can sell it with a custom insole and maybe some more they make some money and make the customer happy and that customer will come back. The same would go for you as a brand. Those women now have a dislike to all brands. Nobody makes their size. But if you can help them they will come back to your brand. I find it very short sighted to purely look at the ROI on those odd sizes in a product like boots, which is a very different product than skis. If you can break even on those boots that is a win. So I think this is a chance for you as a brand instead of ROI problem.
onenerdykid
Active member
14491569:Ghini said:
It was great that you and others forwarded me her story, with a bit of luck we got her sorted. I think she will be very stoked with what's in the mail.
When I was speaking about ROI, I was speaking in general for the boot industry and the short-commings of purely looking at that (sorry if that didn't come across). If brands just look at that, then almost every 22 needs to be cancelled. Offering a size 22 (or 21 especially) will never on its own justify the cost of producing it. It's something (in my opinion) that just needs to get made but in a way that doesn't flood the market with unsellable product. Outside of racing, we make our Hawx Ultra XTD 130 and the Prime XTD 130 in a true 22. And every year, I have to fight to keep them from being cancelled due to low demand, demand that primarily comes from retail (brand direct boot business is rather inconsequential). The ultimate reality is that we produce for retail and if we don't get orders, we don't make it. There is no such thing as surplus inventory in our warehouse right now - literally every boot we made was made to order and we're at max capacity. The ability for a shop to special order odd sizes that weren't on a pre-season order isn't a reality any more.
As the alpine hardgoods buyer in my job prior to Atomic, I know that there is little demand for these small sizes, especially in stiff flexes. But if someone came into my shop requesting it, I would more likely bring a couple more in. It's clear that buyers need to buy for their market (boots like this simply don't appeal to some areas) but they also need to listen to their customers if their customers request a specific product be brought in. No boot brand has any grand delusions here expecting a shop to order 20 pairs of size 22 130s, but taking the risk on a couple pairs won't hurt anything and it will help keep these models alive.
GnomesAreReal
Member
Ngl I’ve personally never come across this problem but then again my big ass feet fit into mens boots just fine. The only problem is that mens boots have less space for calves & womens calves are usually more defined.
my racer friends with 38-36 EU size feet tell me they usually buy boys race boots & they work just with little fitting.
my racer friends with 38-36 EU size feet tell me they usually buy boys race boots & they work just with little fitting.
mountaindewgirl
Active member
I think there is a larger context for why women are pissed about this - a gender bias in data collection which the world is apathetic about. A conversation about it just happened to manifest out of ski gear because, why not?
This book gives a bunch of other examples of "the women's 130 flex ski boot problem" :
https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/41104077-invisible-women
Women are more likely to die in car crashes because safety systems are designed for male crash test dummies... women police are more likely to die from stabbing because vests are designed for male officers... it goes on and on.
Idk, we've beaten this horse so many times. There's no solution, it's exhausting, and the conversation always comes back around to "the privileged bitches are whining".
Obviously ski boots are not the end of the world, but like, dudes would feel pretty inconvenienced if their pants were designed under the assumption that they didn't have penises.
This book gives a bunch of other examples of "the women's 130 flex ski boot problem" :
https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/41104077-invisible-women
Women are more likely to die in car crashes because safety systems are designed for male crash test dummies... women police are more likely to die from stabbing because vests are designed for male officers... it goes on and on.
Idk, we've beaten this horse so many times. There's no solution, it's exhausting, and the conversation always comes back around to "the privileged bitches are whining".
Obviously ski boots are not the end of the world, but like, dudes would feel pretty inconvenienced if their pants were designed under the assumption that they didn't have penises.
mountaindewgirl
Active member
I just feel like women spend so much money shopping for bullshit.
Retailers would be wise to design shit for women and market that shit for "women's empowerment"
Retailers would be wise to design shit for women and market that shit for "women's empowerment"
onenerdykid
Active member
14491650:signtime said:
Thanks for the book rec - just ordered.
While I like to think I'm doing what I can, I'm sure more can be done. Most of the people reading this would be crazily surprised how often the direction of "women's products" is decided on by a bunch of middle-aged dudes.
thankagaper
Member
OP!?! a girl wanted a freestyle ski boot, so we went with a real race boot...
WTF, IDIOCRACY IS SO REAL
WTF, IDIOCRACY IS SO REAL
thankagaper
Member
14491656:onenerdykid said:
considering the niche of the sport, and the cost of bootfitting being for gapers only, seasonally what is your actual job? or does mom still earn your turns for you?
seriously, race boots are for gates, skiing on ancient technology, paying $1000 for outdated patents, LOL.
onenerdykid
Active member
14491700:thankagaper said:
Seasonally, I wait tables. During the main season, my mom helps me with my homework.
And seriously, I'm all about the ancient technology.
Granby_killdozer
Active member
14491825:onenerdykid said:
Why doesn’t every ski boot company offer 150 flexes in 7 different color ways for men??? I think this is the real issue and it’s pretty damn sexist if you ask me. All these female led r&d teams are conspiring to deny men the 150s they so desperately want. I need boots that are appropriate for GS to ski trees and park damnit!
**This post was edited on Dec 19th 2022 at 9:11:02am
jakeordie
Member
14491557:onenerdykid said:
Have any of these brands ever floated the idea of setting retail prices on a sliding scale to match the bell curve? I've asked myself the same question about tall guys wanting 190-ish park skis, would they pay more than RRP for the same ski in shorter lengths.
onenerdykid
Active member
14491841:Craw_Daddy said:
To be fair, color options aren't the issue here so this is a bit of a false dichotomy fallacy. All brands make 150 flex boots for men. Not all brands make 130 flex boots for women. Both are incredibly small production runs. That's the issue.
The reality is always going to come back to orders from retailers. When we get the orders to justify any product, we will make any product.
onenerdykid
Active member
14491844:jakeordie said:
Not impossible, just tricky. Going to be difficult for internal computer systems and billing reasons. Difficult not impossible.
tomPietrowski
Active member
I was sent this question from one of our athletes over the weekend. I feel we have a pretty decent range so far but certainly more to do. Currently we have 2 women's boots in a 130, down to a size 22.5, the anthem and mindbender team. We are going to expand our Dispatch Pro down to a 22.5 moving forward. We wont be making a dedicated women's model yet which although I generally dislike this approach and would prefer a women's model so all women's sizes can have an appropriate cuff the scales of sales on that boot don't justify it, yet..
Moving forward we are expanding our FL3X boot offerings to offer a bigger range of women's sizes and we will actually be shifting our entire size curve down to meet even more smaller foot needs for an upcoming project.
Its certainly an interesting debate for sure and one im pleased we can be pushing forward with more to ensure women are getting the exact products they need.
Moving forward we are expanding our FL3X boot offerings to offer a bigger range of women's sizes and we will actually be shifting our entire size curve down to meet even more smaller foot needs for an upcoming project.
Its certainly an interesting debate for sure and one im pleased we can be pushing forward with more to ensure women are getting the exact products they need.
hemlockjibber8
Active member
Honestly, just make the cuff easy to grind down and make all liners scalloped to fit women’s calves. If it saves $100k and makes making these niche boots more realistic, it’s worth it. Very easy to adapt the boot. I would assume these women are typically shopping at core stores with bootfitters.
Tom, what ever you do, make sure that the women’s touring boot in 22 has a low volume option and is easy to punch for forefoot width. That is by far the most common foot and clientele for me in that size.
@onenerdykid what did you end up getting to Elisabeth Gerritzen? I sent her some advice too. Mainly that she should be competing on a redster sti as it comes in her size.
Tom, what ever you do, make sure that the women’s touring boot in 22 has a low volume option and is easy to punch for forefoot width. That is by far the most common foot and clientele for me in that size.
@onenerdykid what did you end up getting to Elisabeth Gerritzen? I sent her some advice too. Mainly that she should be competing on a redster sti as it comes in her size.
hemlockjibber8
Active member
14491528:jakeordie said:
Even if it was originally designed for men, they have since made the krypton plug all the way down to size 21. The only difference between the krypton and lupo is the upper cuff and some bolt on parts. They currently make all the parts they need for a low volume lupo in size 21 to 23, they just need to assemble them. There’s no major cost to producing it now.
Non_State_Actor
Active member
14491924:tomPietrowski said:
Please elaborate as much as you can...are we talking junior/kids or very low volume waif-ish feet like mine?
tomPietrowski
Active member
Not talking jr 
14492107:mystery3 said:
mountaindewgirl
Active member
onenerdykidThanks for the book rec - just ordered.
While I like to think I'm doing what I can, I'm sure more can be done. Most of the people reading this would be crazily surprised how often the direction of "women's products" is decided on by a bunch of middle-aged dudes.
Hell yeah man. Brace yourself for some serious solidarity.
I've spent years wearing men's steel toe boots for construction. It fucking sucks, and if you mention the pain to anyone, they start to shit all over women.
So as stupid as anyone might think the women's boot flex conversation is, I'm pretty sympathetic to it.
**This post was edited on Dec 20th 2022 at 12:24:36pm
While I like to think I'm doing what I can, I'm sure more can be done. Most of the people reading this would be crazily surprised how often the direction of "women's products" is decided on by a bunch of middle-aged dudes.
Hell yeah man. Brace yourself for some serious solidarity.
I've spent years wearing men's steel toe boots for construction. It fucking sucks, and if you mention the pain to anyone, they start to shit all over women.
So as stupid as anyone might think the women's boot flex conversation is, I'm pretty sympathetic to it.
**This post was edited on Dec 20th 2022 at 12:24:36pm
Granby_killdozer
Active member
14492208:signtime said:
People like me think this conversation is stupid because boot comfort is not a gendered issue. Men deal with this shit too. My toes used to bleed every time I skied when I first got my boots because they got pressed into each other so hard. You know what I did? Went to 3 different boot fitters and got custom foot beds to fix it. You know what I didn’t do? Bitch on social media about it!
cyphers
Active member
14492226:Craw_Daddy said:
hey slap dick. nobody cares that you ski on your heels all day and get toe bang. we are discussing how brands make boots in your size but not in the sizes advanced women skiers need. for them it's not a fit issue. the product just doesn't exist in many shops
also you have a weird obsession with threads containing the word "women" have you tried getting laid instead?
Granby_killdozer
Active member
14492236:cyphers said:
Youre not discussing shit lmao this is your first comment in the thread… you fuckin white knights make me laugh.
my whole point is that 99.99% of normal sized women do not need a 130 flex unless they are racing. For that .01% to expect boot manufacturers to cater to them and operate at a loss is completely ridiculous. Furthermore, it is also ridiculous to describe the problem of having uncomfortable ski boots as being unique to women. As much as you want to believe I’m bad at skiing, I do in fact ski with my knees over my toes and my weight down hill. It made absolutely no difference that my boots were “designed for men”.
I don’t have a weird obsession with putting women down. What I do have is an obsession with disproving the stupid views of people who constantly see themselves as victims when they are in fact not being victimized. I have this obsession because this victimhood mentality is bad for society as a whole.
onenerdykid
Active member
14491557:onenerdykid said:
14492226:Craw_Daddy said:
Your argument hinges on this false premise: I got my boots to work for me, so you should be able to get your boots to work for you. That simply cannot be true because the frequency with which your options exist are far greater than the ones being requested by people with small feet. It's not a level playing field. It's way easier to find a boot for you than for someone with only 1 or 2 options. Now, there are valid market reasons why the current situation is the way it is, but the market also needs to adapt when demand increases. And from what I see, from what I deal with, I would say that that demand for smaller sizes with stiffer flexes is increasing but the market supply is not. Hence the disconnect, hence the frustration.
Now, I agree with you that men deal with this too and in my first post that I never even said "women", I said "people" (quoted above for easy referencing). I will 100% agree with you that the ski boot doesn't know your gender- it mainly just knows your body shape. Every boot fitter worth their salt knows that you fit the individual- not their ego, not what worked for their friend, not the extraneous, trivial points. Just assessing biomechanical needs and matching the boot to those needs. And if you do just that, then it becomes pretty clear that there are not many options for small feet looking for a stiff flex. But while we can try to make this a genderless topic, the reality is that it's not men and women asking for this type of product- it's just women. At least that's who I keep hearing it from. And me as a global product manager would be pretty stupid to ignore that.
cyphers
Active member
14492248:Craw_Daddy said:
shit man you're onto me i'm totally white knighting. can't wait for the hordes of women on this site to throw themselves at me because of my opinion on 130 flex
i'd ask you to source your stats but i'll save you the embarrassment
the "victim mentality" you think women have is completely projected and is evidenced by you being a fuckin whiner in all your posts
Granby_killdozer
Active member
14492256:onenerdykid said:
Well hey man, money talks and bullshit walks. Your hawx 130 flex women’s boots ought to be making a killing if the demand is in fact there.
onenerdykid
Active member
14492265:Craw_Daddy said:
I don't think anyone has the expectations that these boots will be killing it. They should simply be given the same consideration as equally small production runs of certain men's boots. Many brands are ok with doing it for men, but they aren't doing the same for women. I think people have a right to be frustrated with that type of unfairness.
Granby_killdozer
Active member
14492270:onenerdykid said:
Really? I don’t think anyone has a right to be frustrated with other people when the responsibility of solving their extremely unique problems should be theirs and theirs alone (with the exception of healthcare, matters of life and death, etc.). That’s nice that you’re trying to solve this issue but I’m willing to bet those other “equally small production runs” are more profitable for your business because men are much more willing to pay a premium to support those niche product lines. You’re free to prove me wrong with the sales numbers but until you do, I’m going to assume that this perceived slight that women feel is just that, perceived.
e.will
Active member
14491594:onenerdykid said:
So, Matt, as you and [tag=154780]@tomPietrowski[/tag] know, I'm pretty close to this...both being the brand guy for a minute and having a fiancee that actually measures to a 21 (and apparently has the exact foot as the mold for the lupo ax 120 that miraculously came in a 21 last year, so she's stoked).
I think the big issue, and a few folks have skirted around this in their response, is that until now, this has been examined from a sales standpoint, not a brand standpoint. We're looking at ROI from a pre-book standpoint with a 12 month perspective vs. 3-5 year brand cycle.
the question is not "how many are we going to sell at wholesale?" but "how many consumers are we going to lose by not addressing?"
It's obviously been recognized on the male side when we look at product as you've said. I think the approach would be DTC in yr 1/2, build brand stories around it -- plus ya'll got Amie on now and she's super vocal about this -- and acknowledge it's a marketing campaign/loss leading product that would strengthen long-term. Make it a hype product until you've got the data to show the market exists...with at least similar strength to the male side of this convo.
Also, good for you for been so slim on chase, that's friggin nuts considering the current climate.
mountaindewgirl
Active member
Craw_DaddyReally? I don’t think anyone has a right to be frustrated with other people when the responsibility of solving their extremely unique problems should be theirs and theirs alone (with the exception of healthcare, matters of life and death, etc.). That’s nice that you’re trying to solve this issue but I’m willing to bet those other “equally small production runs” are more profitable for your business because men are much more willing to pay a premium to support those niche product lines. You’re free to prove me wrong with the sales numbers but until you do, I’m going to assume that this perceived slight that women feel is just that, perceived.
Maybe you should try buying some women's pants in your size and paying to get them tailored so they're not pinching your nuts.
Easy for you to sit there with the whole world revolving around you, whining and crying about women trying to progress in our sport.
Maybe you should try buying some women's pants in your size and paying to get them tailored so they're not pinching your nuts.
Easy for you to sit there with the whole world revolving around you, whining and crying about women trying to progress in our sport.