Why the FRICK has there not been advancements in alpine bindings over the years?

ASSholebomber22

Active member
Skis are very different now than they were 25 years ago. Alpine bindings, not so much. With the exception of the knee binding, who I've never actually witnessed anyone use, why the hell are we running the same mechanisms that have been around for decades?

What about a heelpeice the releases laterally at the pull of a trigger on a ski pole? Just a pipe dream and wouldn't prevent all injuries but knee surgery fuckin blows and there's gotta be a better way. [tag=17763]@JLev[/tag] any ideas brewing? I know you've tried before!
 
topic:Biffbarf said:
Skis are very different now than they were 25 years ago. Alpine bindings, not so much. With the exception of the knee binding, who I've never actually witnessed anyone use, why the hell are we running the same mechanisms that have been around for decades?

I heard it's really expensive to R&D a new binding design, not to mention the potential liability that someone would need to sign off on. There would need to be a huge market to justify it, and although the advances in ski tech (sidecut, rocker etc.) are widely accepted I'd guess that most of those skiers are not pushing old binding tech past its limits the way NSers do.
 
How about all the advances in alpine touring bindings? You could not send a 5 foot cliff in pin bindings ten years ago
 
14068586:snowmosexual said:
How about all the advances in alpine touring bindings? You could not send a 5 foot cliff in pin bindings ten years ago

True, but even at best downhill performance (shift or cast) they're still limited by alpine binding tech
 
I'd like to see someone try and modernize the spademan binding. Look them up, seems kinda like the Line Reactor binding turned sideways in terms of functionality. Not sure how they would handle modern skiing but it seems like they podiumed in og mogul comps a lot.

Spademan_S-9_binding.jpg


**This post was edited on Oct 21st 2019 at 9:11:09pm

**This post was edited on Oct 21st 2019 at 9:12:46pm
 
I heard jlev say in a podcast that the technology exists to make bindings that prevent knee injuries but all the binding companies won't make it because they don't want to make all their existing models obsolete
 
14068622:abar. said:
I heard jlev say in a podcast that the technology exists to make bindings that prevent knee injuries but all the binding companies won't make it because they don't want to make all their existing models obsolete

That sounds like bullshit
 
What about the look pivot? Also I think the ski industry has adopted a “if it ain’t broke don’t fix it” type mentality when it comes to bindings. Not to mention liability issues that could ensue.
 
14068634:GOODY3215 said:
What about the look pivot? Also I think the ski industry has adopted a “if it ain’t broke don’t fix it” type mentality when it comes to bindings. Not to mention liability issues that could ensue.

The pivot doesn't truely release laterally in the heel piece, they want so hard to pretend that it does but the turntable heel is a gimmick to me.

The ONLY thing the pivot may have over other bindings is the toepeice imo as it may 'barrel roll' but an sth toe still has more toe elasticity.
 
14068635:Biffbarf said:
The pivot doesn't truely release laterally in the heel piece, they want so hard to pretend that it does but the turntable heel is a gimmick to me.

The ONLY thing the pivot may have over other bindings is the toepeice imo as it may 'barrel roll' but an sth toe still has more toe elasticity.

Honestly I don’t agree. The pivot has definitely saved my leg more than once last season. I don’t think it’s entirely lateral but it does what it’s intended to do. Save you from injury. IMO pivot has succeeded in doing that.
 
The mechanics of a pivot are the exact same as any other alpine binding. Heel releases up, toe releases side to side. They're good bindings don't get me wrong, but a backwards twisting fall will still merc your knee.
 
14068622:abar. said:
I heard jlev say in a podcast that the technology exists to make bindings that prevent knee injuries but all the binding companies won't make it because they don't want to make all their existing models obsolete

definitely not true else a company without existing models would make it...
 
14068625:SofaKingSick said:
That sounds like bullshit

oh and i personally watched 2 pairs of Reactors explode on medium-small jumps and heard countless more horror stories that year

and it seems likely that that whole fiasco is related to why Line dropped basically their whole team but Pollard the next year

so you'll pardon me if i don't think j lev is a very good source on info about bindings and how they fit into the industry
 
Think about the fact that humans have figured out how to fly to the moon and back, rebuild your heart, and create back flipping robots. I'd say it's reasonable to think that one of the many hundred million dollar plus public ski & binding companies can develop a binding that protects your knee during a backward twisting fall.

The problem with current alpine ski bindings is they do not feel the forces applied to the binding during a backwards twisting fall, thus do not release. This is when your knee is bent and your weight is on the tail of your ski, and your ski twists or carves. Anytime your getting to far back seat, you're better off falling on your back so your skis come off the snow rather than fighting to stay up while your ski carves a turn and blows your knee.

The binding solution we developed back in early 2000's at Line was a binding named the Reactor that had a separate spring located in the heel of the binding that released laterally in a similar way as all toes currently do. It was not easy to achieve but on all ASTM tests we proved that it did indeed protect your knee far better than other bindings. We offered to license or even sell the patents to all other bindings manufacturers and no one wanted it.

People often refer to the Look Pivot as already having this knee protecting feature because the heel pivots. However that pivoting hell simply enables the TOE to rotate laterally out further before pre-releasing as well as releasing smoother. It's an awesome binding relative to others on the market... but not safer than others. The steel bars running down the side of the heel of your boot on the Pivot clearly eliminates the ability for the boot heel to actually release laterally in a backward twisting fall. The Knee binding I have not personally seen any release testing results to be able to speak about it.

The reason the Line Reactor binding did not survive is because we were a small company at the time. We could only sell a few thousand skis a year, thus not able to sell enough of these bindings to cover the immense costs of developing + manufacturing this product. The insane costs ultimately drove Line into huge debt and on the brink of bankruptcy leading to K2 acquiring it to save it from shutting down.

A large binding company like Marker, Salomon, Tyrolia, and others are the best to develop this new product. Obviously it would require millions of dollars of investment which likely has been seen as necessary.... unless customers refuse to buy current products, demanding a safer version. This won't happen until someone has the guts and $$$ to make one and successfully bring it to market so there is an alternative. A new safer binding would also immediately outdate all current bindings on the market throwing the industry into a legal liability whirlwind unable to sell the millions of bindings already on the market. However it's been done before, when the first releasable bindings were created many decades ago, prior to that time skiers broke and spiral fractured their legs when falling. We've made progress, but we're far from done when it comes to making ski bindings that perform and protect you from injury.
 
What pisses me off the most is the inability of anyone to agree on mount patterns/threaded inserts/boot norms. Makes complete sense because the industry is just focused on making money, and I'm glad companies make things like quiver killers. Also really wish CAST was a much bigger company, they are making an incredible product but as a small company the production costs must be through the roof, wish the final cost was a little less.
 
Most people outside Of backcountry skiing and park skiing keep their bindings and a pretty low DIN.

If you are sustaining big impacts and also demanding that the binding only release in a split second that you subjectively want it to and not otherwise, that is kind of asking a lot for a simple spring loaded foot clip.
 
14068586:snowmosexual said:
How about all the advances in alpine touring bindings? You could not send a 5 foot cliff in pin bindings ten years ago

I would still not send a 5 foot cliff in pin bindings...
 
14068905:Roy said:
I would still not send a 5 foot cliff in pin bindings...

You couldn't pay me enough to ski any snow thats moderately hardpackish on pin bindings, then again I've seen people send 40 footers on vipecs... its just like climbing on sketchy gear, probably going to be ok but there's always that nag in the back of your head saying what if you tear your acl. I reserve pins for big objectives where i stay in contact with the snow at all times
 
14068586:snowmosexual said:
How about all the advances in alpine touring bindings? You could not send a 5 foot cliff in pin bindings ten years ago

Here, Here!

I went from Naxo in 2004 and NX01 in 2005 to Dukes in 2006 for 10 years (I guess I had a set of Plum pins somewhere in there then Adrenaline 16's near the end but that era was dominated by Dukes)! Then I got Kingpin 13's in 2016 and now will rock the M WERKS 12 on the Hoji boot on a DPS Lotus 124.

I'm done lugging the heaviest rig on the hill up the biggest mountains!
 
You think that knee could ever sell their patents if both they and a major binding manufacturer were open to it? The R&D is done (minus some ease of use tweaking), so that could be attractive to a major company in acquiring knee.

14068723:JLev said:
Think about the fact that humans have figured out how to fly to the moon and back, rebuild your heart, and create back flipping robots. I'd say it's reasonable to think that one of the many hundred million dollar plus public ski & binding companies can develop a binding that protects your knee during a backward twisting fall.

The problem with current alpine ski bindings is they do not feel the forces applied to the binding during a backwards twisting fall, thus do not release. This is when your knee is bent and your weight is on the tail of your ski, and your ski twists or carves. Anytime your getting to far back seat, you're better off falling on your back so your skis come off the snow rather than fighting to stay up while your ski carves a turn and blows your knee.

The binding solution we developed back in early 2000's at Line was a binding named the Reactor that had a separate spring located in the heel of the binding that released laterally in a similar way as all toes currently do. It was not easy to achieve but on all ASTM tests we proved that it did indeed protect your knee far better than other bindings. We offered to license or even sell the patents to all other bindings manufacturers and no one wanted it.

People often refer to the Look Pivot as already having this knee protecting feature because the heel pivots. However that pivoting hell simply enables the TOE to rotate laterally out further before pre-releasing as well as releasing smoother. It's an awesome binding relative to others on the market... but not safer than others. The steel bars running down the side of the heel of your boot on the Pivot clearly eliminates the ability for the boot heel to actually release laterally in a backward twisting fall. The Knee binding I have not personally seen any release testing results to be able to speak about it.

The reason the Line Reactor binding did not survive is because we were a small company at the time. We could only sell a few thousand skis a year, thus not able to sell enough of these bindings to cover the immense costs of developing + manufacturing this product. The insane costs ultimately drove Line into huge debt and on the brink of bankruptcy leading to K2 acquiring it to save it from shutting down.

A large binding company like Marker, Salomon, Tyrolia, and others are the best to develop this new product. Obviously it would require millions of dollars of investment which likely has been seen as necessary.... unless customers refuse to buy current products, demanding a safer version. This won't happen until someone has the guts and $$$ to make one and successfully bring it to market so there is an alternative. A new safer binding would also immediately outdate all current bindings on the market throwing the industry into a legal liability whirlwind unable to sell the millions of bindings already on the market. However it's been done before, when the first releasable bindings were created many decades ago, prior to that time skiers broke and spiral fractured their legs when falling. We've made progress, but we're far from done when it comes to making ski bindings that perform and protect you from injury.
 
14069024:03gade said:
You think that knee could ever sell their patents if both they and a major binding manufacturer were open to it? The R&D is done (minus some ease of use tweaking), so that could be attractive to a major company in acquiring knee.

Most big companies believe they can do everything themselves better so wouldn't consider unless the other company was already taking a substantial amount of business from their sales.
 
14068906:brogoldenhair said:
You couldn't pay me enough to ski any snow thats moderately hardpackish on pin bindings, then again I've seen people send 40 footers on vipecs... its just like climbing on sketchy gear, probably going to be ok but there's always that nag in the back of your head saying what if you tear your acl. I reserve pins for big objectives where i stay in contact with the snow at all times

When I am touring the limiting factor is almost never my gear. Usually I think something like, ‘what if there is a hidden rock in the landing area of this cliff that literally no one has hit this year, It took two healthy legs to get to this point, I don’t think I can get to my car with one leg shattered.”

I guess I just ski in a different world than the people riding CAST and all that.
 
14068723:JLev said:
Think about the fact that humans have figured out how to fly to the moon and back,

Did you just compare a $30 billion dollar government program to a private company developing a binding with true lateral release?

You are a fucking idiot.
 
14069548:BoostMaG said:
Because the designs work, why fix something that ain’t broke

No joke reading this while waiting for my 20 week post op appointment with my orthopedic surgeon. We may have different definitions of 'work'
 
14069558:Biffbarf said:
No joke reading this while waiting for my 20 week post op appointment with my orthopedic surgeon. We may have different definitions of 'work'

You probably bought markers
 
14069558:Biffbarf said:
No joke reading this while waiting for my 20 week post op appointment with my orthopedic surgeon. We may have different definitions of 'work'

But fr get better

**This post was edited on Oct 24th 2019 at 12:42:11pm
 
14069561:BoostMaG said:
But fr get better

**This post was edited on Oct 24th 2019 at 12:42:11pm

Thanks playa! Knee feels good all things considered. Hurt myself with an sth2 but I'm sure it woulda happened with any other binding
 
Those bindings look haunted

14068605:a_burger said:
I'd like to see someone try and modernize the spademan binding. Look them up, seems kinda like the Line Reactor binding turned sideways in terms of functionality. Not sure how they would handle modern skiing but it seems like they podiumed in og mogul comps a lot.

Spademan_S-9_binding.jpg


**This post was edited on Oct 21st 2019 at 9:11:09pm

**This post was edited on Oct 21st 2019 at 9:12:46pm
 
14069753:DolanReloaded said:
Those bindings look haunted

Looks like something out of SAW...click into these bindings and your acl will be destroyed .. don’t click in and you will never ski again.. haha either way you’re never skiing again
 
This topic came up in a Facebook group.

Actually the mechanisms in the pictures have been refined by Tyrolia since the 1980:s.

All the best

Btw. AxeCleaver is a old Salomon carving ski..

14069838:ahshit said:
Bullshit you're a tyrolia rep that's why you made your ns account today

**This post was edited on Oct 26th 2019 at 4:18:04am

**This post was edited on Oct 28th 2019 at 1:16:02am
 
14069385:NPF said:
magnets so skiers can do ssx on tour shit

Imagine doing a superman fronty with both your skis in yours hand like fucking spears

Edit: found the image that comes to mind. Sick movie

942483.jpeg

**This post was edited on Oct 28th 2019 at 10:08:04am
 
topic:Biffbarf said:
Skis are very different now than they were 25 years ago. Alpine bindings, not so much. With the exception of the knee binding, who I've never actually witnessed anyone use, why the hell are we running the same mechanisms that have been around for decades?

What about a heelpeice the releases laterally at the pull of a trigger on a ski pole? Just a pipe dream and wouldn't prevent all injuries but knee surgery fuckin blows and there's gotta be a better way. [tag=17763]@JLev[/tag] any ideas brewing? I know you've tried before!

Because bindings are subject to international standards relative to the boots that use them. It's hard to do a ground up redesign of a retention system if you cant change what is being retained. They probably could make significant progress if they changed how the boots interface but no company realistically will do that given the wide use of the existing ISO standards for Din and AT soles. A overhaul would have to encompass boot and bonding design. From an engineers perspective, this is not a good use of resources. If there were major safety concerns or performance was lacking from traditional bindings, this would be a different conversation.
 
14068723:JLev said:
Think about the fact that humans have figured out how to fly to the moon and back, rebuild your heart, and create back flipping robots. I'd say it's reasonable to think that one of the many hundred million dollar plus public ski & binding companies can develop a binding that protects your knee during a backward twisting fall.

The problem with current alpine ski bindings is they do not feel the forces applied to the binding during a backwards twisting fall, thus do not release. This is when your knee is bent and your weight is on the tail of your ski, and your ski twists or carves. Anytime your getting to far back seat, you're better off falling on your back so your skis come off the snow rather than fighting to stay up while your ski carves a turn and blows your knee.

The binding solution we developed back in early 2000's at Line was a binding named the Reactor that had a separate spring located in the heel of the binding that released laterally in a similar way as all toes currently do. It was not easy to achieve but on all ASTM tests we proved that it did indeed protect your knee far better than other bindings. We offered to license or even sell the patents to all other bindings manufacturers and no one wanted it.

People often refer to the Look Pivot as already having this knee protecting feature because the heel pivots. However that pivoting hell simply enables the TOE to rotate laterally out further before pre-releasing as well as releasing smoother. It's an awesome binding relative to others on the market... but not safer than others. The steel bars running down the side of the heel of your boot on the Pivot clearly eliminates the ability for the boot heel to actually release laterally in a backward twisting fall. The Knee binding I have not personally seen any release testing results to be able to speak about it.

The reason the Line Reactor binding did not survive is because we were a small company at the time. We could only sell a few thousand skis a year, thus not able to sell enough of these bindings to cover the immense costs of developing + manufacturing this product. The insane costs ultimately drove Line into huge debt and on the brink of bankruptcy leading to K2 acquiring it to save it from shutting down.

A large binding company like Marker, Salomon, Tyrolia, and others are the best to develop this new product. Obviously it would require millions of dollars of investment which likely has been seen as necessary.... unless customers refuse to buy current products, demanding a safer version. This won't happen until someone has the guts and $$$ to make one and successfully bring it to market so there is an alternative. A new safer binding would also immediately outdate all current bindings on the market throwing the industry into a legal liability whirlwind unable to sell the millions of bindings already on the market. However it's been done before, when the first releasable bindings were created many decades ago, prior to that time skiers broke and spiral fractured their legs when falling. We've made progress, but we're far from done when it comes to making ski bindings that perform and protect you from injury.

Of course they can develop a safer binding, but if you are marker or salomon or some other company,Why would you foot the R&D. No one is actively looking to make a safer binding and like you said its gonna take millions in R&D. Ski companies even like Salomon and K2 don't have unlimited resources. Their parent corporations might, but that doesn't necessarily mean they have the resources at their disposal to effectively design produce and market. From an engineering perspective it's not worth the investment and even if there was a huge push by a company to introduce a new type of binding, I do not think it would have even close to the effect that you specified. There comes a time where technology of all forms is simply "good enough" to where progress slows or stops because the market is no longer present for a marginally better product. Bindings have hit that point!
 
14070405:CabbyArrant said:
There comes a time where technology of all forms is simply "good enough" to where progress slows or stops because the market is no longer present for a marginally better product.

This is true.

But, there will always be individuals like JLev who find a way ahead despite all that. There must be, or we'd all be cavemen or Amish or mogul skiers.....this is NEW schoolers!

So there's E-bikes nowadays with pressure sensors in the pedals. I guess a little computer and some code controls how much juice to kick in relative to how hard the rider is cranking. Seems to me like this tech could easily be adapted to ski bindings.....rather than using predetermined spring tension to meter static friction on specific release planes, the sensors could be programmed to trigger release according to more complex variables.

Maybe that hardware could be moved from the bindings to the boots, so the settings would be skier-specific not ski-specific. You and a friend could switch skis without having to mess with DINs, and rental shops could have set programs for different skier variables (weight, skill etc).
 
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