waxing and sharpening edges
- Thread starter fitbmx86
- Start date
Go to www.tognar.com, theres a tutorial there. Waxing isnt that hard, but edges can be a little tricky.
'I would be embarrassed to constantly complain about my life considering all the freedom and opportunities we have today. People that can't find anything they enjoy in life simply aren't giving it a real try.' ~Nick 311
'I would be embarrassed to constantly complain about my life considering all the freedom and opportunities we have today. People that can't find anything they enjoy in life simply aren't giving it a real try.' ~Nick 311
dont listen to these people. pay people like ME to do it for you, because all i just read spells DISASTER!
p.s. if ya wanna do something: try waxing first. buy an all temperture wax to get you going (ex. green/blue universal-cold) wipe your bases clean. buy a plasic scraper, make sure its sharp. a scotch brite pad. and an iron WITHOUT HOLES (holes will bubble your base=fucked pair of skis)
melt/drip just enough wax (to cover the ski when you iron it in) on the ski with the iron at about 100 degrees F. iron the wax on the ski KEEPING THE IRON MOVING AT ALL TIMES. make sure the ski is at room temperature before you start!
let the wax cool to room temperature. scrape off ALL the wax you can (the wax that matters is already inside the base/structure of your ski) rub/buff out with the scotch brite pad using a good amount of pressure. repeat if ya want. once again, very simple way, good enough for you, can get as complicated as you wish.
try that for starters
MIDWESTSKIER
suomi@midwestskier.com
CASANOVA FREERIDE
Casanova's Ski and Board Shop
601 Apache Dr.
Wakefield, MI 49968
(906) 224-3231
who's kiddin' who?
p.s. if ya wanna do something: try waxing first. buy an all temperture wax to get you going (ex. green/blue universal-cold) wipe your bases clean. buy a plasic scraper, make sure its sharp. a scotch brite pad. and an iron WITHOUT HOLES (holes will bubble your base=fucked pair of skis)
melt/drip just enough wax (to cover the ski when you iron it in) on the ski with the iron at about 100 degrees F. iron the wax on the ski KEEPING THE IRON MOVING AT ALL TIMES. make sure the ski is at room temperature before you start!
let the wax cool to room temperature. scrape off ALL the wax you can (the wax that matters is already inside the base/structure of your ski) rub/buff out with the scotch brite pad using a good amount of pressure. repeat if ya want. once again, very simple way, good enough for you, can get as complicated as you wish.
try that for starters
MIDWESTSKIER
suomi@midwestskier.com
CASANOVA FREERIDE
Casanova's Ski and Board Shop
601 Apache Dr.
Wakefield, MI 49968
(906) 224-3231
who's kiddin' who?
yea, dude, unless you can use your iron flipped so you have enough space to touch the ski without the holes touching, find a new iron!
make sure commercial cloths irons are on the lowest setting too or close to it, about 100 degrees F.
cheap old irons: St. Vincent De Paul (hell ya!)
otherwise you can bubble the base, then your fucked, and its not covered under ANY warantee
MIDWESTSKIER
suomi@midwestskier.com
CASANOVA FREERIDE
Casanova's Ski and Board Shop
601 Apache Dr.
Wakefield, MI 49968
(906) 224-3231
who's kiddin' who?
make sure commercial cloths irons are on the lowest setting too or close to it, about 100 degrees F.
cheap old irons: St. Vincent De Paul (hell ya!)
otherwise you can bubble the base, then your fucked, and its not covered under ANY warantee
MIDWESTSKIER
suomi@midwestskier.com
CASANOVA FREERIDE
Casanova's Ski and Board Shop
601 Apache Dr.
Wakefield, MI 49968
(906) 224-3231
who's kiddin' who?
joe_cool_ski
Member
bring them into a shop and let them do it no matter how hard you try you can not get as good of a tune as a machine can lay down doing it your self trust me the shop is your best bet
manus
Active member
look up the ideal waxing temp on the companies website, or shoot em an email, in my experience (and having talked to a swix rep), most waxes are most effectively applied between 140 and 180 degrees (depeneding on the wax composition), now this can be tough to get the right temp (unless you have a digi iron - I know swix makes em, I toko might too, but ther're expensive) so keeping your iron at the lowest temp is best bet (as said before).
Also, the holes in the iron thing. Any iron can bubble the base, but more often then not, the household irons are used at too hot a temp and seal the pores in the base shut. My understanding is that the reason that holes in an iron are bad is because they can build up wax and rust. The worst is if you get rust in your bases, you have now added corroding metal into the base material.
The way waxing works, for those that don't know, is by heating up the pores in the base, the pores open up, the wax flows in. You then scrape off what you can (which will leave the wax in the pores, this really is all the wax you need). Depending on snow conditions (how wet the snow is is actually more important than how cold the air or snow is) you might want to consider a flouro wax, high flouro for very wet, low flouro for generally wet snow, and non-flouro for those fairly dry snow (squeeks when you walk on it in your boots snow) days.
If you are going to try waxing your skis, make sure you get either a brush, or like said before a scothbrite pad. This will enable you to get the remaining wax out of the structure of the base (small grooves that allow water to flow out from under the ski). Once, you've waxed and scraped the skis, run over them with the brush or scotchbrite, use tip to tail strokes (can go tail to tip too with a brush or scotchbrite, but general rule of thumb, always go tip to tail), a couple times down the ski should get most of the wax out of the structure.
To truly know to tune, you need to understand how the ski actually slides on the snow. The wax you put on creates a controled amount of friction between the snow and ski, creating a small/thin layer of water that allows the ski to move. Depending on how hydro-phobic (water-repelling) the wax you use, and how wet the snow is will greatly effect the skis speed. The structure, small grooves, is what allows the ski to flow the small amount of water out, most of the time, a basic light structure is all that is needed.
To wax your ski properly can be a lot more involved than people realize. But once you get used to it, and understand why and how you do everything its actually pretty easy.
And remember to clean your bases before you wax. You can either use a junk wax to ''float'' the dirt and grime that may build up, or you can use a cleaner. I use Citris based stripper/cleaners, but you can also use acetone (go to the hardware store, its a crap load cheaper than going to a ski shop - people don't realize that stripper/cleaner is usually just acetone). And make sure they are good and dry before you start waxing.
Also, the holes in the iron thing. Any iron can bubble the base, but more often then not, the household irons are used at too hot a temp and seal the pores in the base shut. My understanding is that the reason that holes in an iron are bad is because they can build up wax and rust. The worst is if you get rust in your bases, you have now added corroding metal into the base material.
The way waxing works, for those that don't know, is by heating up the pores in the base, the pores open up, the wax flows in. You then scrape off what you can (which will leave the wax in the pores, this really is all the wax you need). Depending on snow conditions (how wet the snow is is actually more important than how cold the air or snow is) you might want to consider a flouro wax, high flouro for very wet, low flouro for generally wet snow, and non-flouro for those fairly dry snow (squeeks when you walk on it in your boots snow) days.
If you are going to try waxing your skis, make sure you get either a brush, or like said before a scothbrite pad. This will enable you to get the remaining wax out of the structure of the base (small grooves that allow water to flow out from under the ski). Once, you've waxed and scraped the skis, run over them with the brush or scotchbrite, use tip to tail strokes (can go tail to tip too with a brush or scotchbrite, but general rule of thumb, always go tip to tail), a couple times down the ski should get most of the wax out of the structure.
To truly know to tune, you need to understand how the ski actually slides on the snow. The wax you put on creates a controled amount of friction between the snow and ski, creating a small/thin layer of water that allows the ski to move. Depending on how hydro-phobic (water-repelling) the wax you use, and how wet the snow is will greatly effect the skis speed. The structure, small grooves, is what allows the ski to flow the small amount of water out, most of the time, a basic light structure is all that is needed.
To wax your ski properly can be a lot more involved than people realize. But once you get used to it, and understand why and how you do everything its actually pretty easy.
And remember to clean your bases before you wax. You can either use a junk wax to ''float'' the dirt and grime that may build up, or you can use a cleaner. I use Citris based stripper/cleaners, but you can also use acetone (go to the hardware store, its a crap load cheaper than going to a ski shop - people don't realize that stripper/cleaner is usually just acetone). And make sure they are good and dry before you start waxing.
joe_cool_ski
Member
dude the kid is most likely 14 and is just going to f up his skies go to a shop
manus
Active member
^true, but the only way to learn is to fuck up. Looking back at some of the stuff I've done to ski's while learning is just plain comedy, I wonder what the hell I was thinking, but because of the exposure and experience, I now know better.
Personally, I like maintaining my own equiptment, not everyone does. There are very few shops I trust to touch my skis, I'm extremely picky about my equiptment.
And as far as quality goes, a hand tune by a knowledgable tech is far better than a machine tune, but most people will not notice the difference, except in the bill.
Personally, I like maintaining my own equiptment, not everyone does. There are very few shops I trust to touch my skis, I'm extremely picky about my equiptment.
And as far as quality goes, a hand tune by a knowledgable tech is far better than a machine tune, but most people will not notice the difference, except in the bill.
manus: im glad you took the time and effort to say what you did, so i didnt have to, your right on with all you said....i contemplated getting REALLY into it, but thats a hella typing. and considering the original question as well.....
one comment on manus's post: BASE CLEANERS:
they do a great job on stripping off wax and debris. the biggest thing: make sure you give enough time for the cleaner to FULLY evaporate from the base and pores. different opinions on this.....either way the longer you let them sit before waxing the better. if your in a rush: at LEASE 15 min. personally, at the end of the day, with my skis and all our shops demos or racer's skis: if they need to be cleaned, i clean them, and let them sit until i get into work the next morning to wax them. maximum percausion there.
why? BASE CLEANER+WAX=SLOW SKI. thats from straight from the mouth of Francis Casanova, National race GOD.
(i am not, never was, or never WILL be a racer by the way)
joe_ski: on your machine tuning comment. of course this disregards your base grinders and stone grinders, but put ME and hundreds of experianced ski techs up against any machine edger, any model, and we could put a hell of a better hand edge tune than machines.
dont get me wrong, i machine tune everything for starters, but if the skier wants something more specific with beveling/etc. out comes the file.....you cant beat a personal touch.
GRINDRITE edgers definetly get the closest to the personal touch as possible.WINTERSTIEGER as well.
MIDWESTSKIER
suomi@midwestskier.com
CASANOVA FREERIDE
Casanova's Ski and Board Shop
601 Apache Dr.
Wakefield, MI 49968
(906) 224-3231
who's kiddin' who?
one comment on manus's post: BASE CLEANERS:
they do a great job on stripping off wax and debris. the biggest thing: make sure you give enough time for the cleaner to FULLY evaporate from the base and pores. different opinions on this.....either way the longer you let them sit before waxing the better. if your in a rush: at LEASE 15 min. personally, at the end of the day, with my skis and all our shops demos or racer's skis: if they need to be cleaned, i clean them, and let them sit until i get into work the next morning to wax them. maximum percausion there.
why? BASE CLEANER+WAX=SLOW SKI. thats from straight from the mouth of Francis Casanova, National race GOD.
(i am not, never was, or never WILL be a racer by the way)
joe_ski: on your machine tuning comment. of course this disregards your base grinders and stone grinders, but put ME and hundreds of experianced ski techs up against any machine edger, any model, and we could put a hell of a better hand edge tune than machines.
dont get me wrong, i machine tune everything for starters, but if the skier wants something more specific with beveling/etc. out comes the file.....you cant beat a personal touch.
GRINDRITE edgers definetly get the closest to the personal touch as possible.WINTERSTIEGER as well.
MIDWESTSKIER
suomi@midwestskier.com
CASANOVA FREERIDE
Casanova's Ski and Board Shop
601 Apache Dr.
Wakefield, MI 49968
(906) 224-3231
who's kiddin' who?
joe_cool_ski
Member
one of the local ski shops around me is part owned by one of the us ski team tuners. he uses a laser guided machine to stone edge sharpen and wax and people send him there skies from all over because he is one of the best and he uses only machine i agree that a hand edge can be better than most shops because they dont take there time but a machine is true all the time and if one takes there time a machine is going to be better o ya where are you from just curious
ok dude....ya got me there!! haha, you are definetly correct about that type of tuning machine....there are those types and others as well....talk about $$$$ for those puppies, and theres actually not that many out there in the industry......staying on a status UNDER those machines, i stand by the previous words......
in from the midwest by the way.....the western Upper Peninsula of Mich.......i hope you are'nt going to base my knowledge, opinions, or ability on where im from.....because that would be pretty gay
MIDWESTSKIER
suomi@midwestskier.com
CASANOVA FREERIDE
Casanova's Ski and Board Shop
601 Apache Dr.
Wakefield, MI 49968
(906) 224-3231
who's kiddin' who?
in from the midwest by the way.....the western Upper Peninsula of Mich.......i hope you are'nt going to base my knowledge, opinions, or ability on where im from.....because that would be pretty gay
MIDWESTSKIER
suomi@midwestskier.com
CASANOVA FREERIDE
Casanova's Ski and Board Shop
601 Apache Dr.
Wakefield, MI 49968
(906) 224-3231
who's kiddin' who?
TwinTippedPatroller
Member
Im on patrol, so I ski alot. We need to have sharp edges for toboggan handleing, any suggestions on a quick edge tune up that I can do in between shop tune-ups?
Kick Midgets
Kick Midgets
manus
Active member
sounds like the shop has a Montana machine, yes they are a good machine, and a good hand tune is still typically gonna rely on a stone grind, but Montana's are somewhat hard to find and they still just use all temp wax (typically) and do not adjust for the specific needs of the skier and snow. Also, most if not all machine use a friction application of wax, not a true hot wax.
If machines were that good, why do pro's pay so much money to have a top notch tech tune all their equiptment?
One reason I do not like machines is the fact that often times there are under-trained kids running the machines (I know some tech's that are damn good with the machines too though).
I remember learning on a Wintersteiger stone grinder (don't remember the specific machine), and the binding jig I was using (old K2 Mod X's) slipped off the ski (damn ridge, and damn old jig) and directly pressured the ski (under foot) onto the stone. It was not fun. But I'll tell you, better to mess up like that on your own skis, and not someone elses.
If machines were that good, why do pro's pay so much money to have a top notch tech tune all their equiptment?
One reason I do not like machines is the fact that often times there are under-trained kids running the machines (I know some tech's that are damn good with the machines too though).
I remember learning on a Wintersteiger stone grinder (don't remember the specific machine), and the binding jig I was using (old K2 Mod X's) slipped off the ski (damn ridge, and damn old jig) and directly pressured the ski (under foot) onto the stone. It was not fun. But I'll tell you, better to mess up like that on your own skis, and not someone elses.
manus
Active member
twin-tipped Pat, you can get a base and side bevel guide (I know Reliable Racing has em) and get the stones that fit it. Set your angles to your bevels, and with a stone (not file) run the edges a couple times a night before you put the skis away, and a good idea is to hit them with the stones and then ceramic stones like once a week. The ceramic stones are much finer grit, and can actually harden the steel.
BTW - I work in MA, but I am not a shop tech, I am a ski insructor. I just tune my own skis and occasionally other peoples skis (for beer typically) and teach other people I work with how to properly maintain/tune their skis - although I have trained on a lot of the machines.
BTW - I work in MA, but I am not a shop tech, I am a ski insructor. I just tune my own skis and occasionally other peoples skis (for beer typically) and teach other people I work with how to properly maintain/tune their skis - although I have trained on a lot of the machines.
joe_cool_ski
Member
i would get a dimond stone for on the mountain to keep your stuff burr free then i would get a easy to use edger maybe something with a pre set degree
and i agree that a hand tune is better if you know what you are doing and your local shop sucks ass and also we agree that there is no replacment for a good stone grind
and i agree that a hand tune is better if you know what you are doing and your local shop sucks ass and also we agree that there is no replacment for a good stone grind
i got the burton red fat tune kit for $50 and it comes with a pretty pimp set up.....as far as i can tell though it only grinds the side of the edge, but not the bottom.....tried it on an old pair of rusty edged rossignols (sat in my ski rack for a whole winter two years ago) and in minutes the edges (sides at least) were totally clean and sharp.....dunno if i trust myself enough to use it on my twins though, i got it more for the waxing stuff and the stones, and cuz it was marked down from $125
Abba Zabba, you my only friend
Abba Zabba, you my only friend
manus
Active member
for general maintenance, this is the best I've found, because it will hit both side and base bevels and you can get a variety of stones for it:
sorry don't know how to actively link:
http://www.reliableracing.com/WintersportsCatalog/detail.cfm?edp=10112688&category=2000
for general maintenance, you do not need to file, just hit with a stone (diamond stone). If you actually hardened the steel (can happen by clipping rocks), the file will skip, but the diamond stone will get rid of it.
If you are only looking to maintain the side edge, then any fixed or adjustable side bevel guide should be fine, but again, I'de get a stone to throw in it, no need to constantly file the edges.
sorry don't know how to actively link:
http://www.reliableracing.com/WintersportsCatalog/detail.cfm?edp=10112688&category=2000
for general maintenance, you do not need to file, just hit with a stone (diamond stone). If you actually hardened the steel (can happen by clipping rocks), the file will skip, but the diamond stone will get rid of it.
If you are only looking to maintain the side edge, then any fixed or adjustable side bevel guide should be fine, but again, I'de get a stone to throw in it, no need to constantly file the edges.
yea....overall opinion, the ski is as good as the tech, whether he is hand or machine tuning.....all of world-cup machine tunes are only as good as the tech also...takes ALOT of feel, and tweaking to get the right tune.
as far as the 'ultimate kickass machine goes'.....i can agree with you, i believe it IS a Montana. i know Winterstieger was getting into and i think put out a few machines like this also, but im not positive.
its great, the shop i work in is small, its a midwestern shop, family owned. it is known nationally because of this name and its quality, especially when it comes to racing and tuning. our hardgoods staff is well expireinced and well rounded. really, its only the owner, myself, and one other guy. and im part-time. and the original owner, race god, and coach Francis Casanova. he puts out on average about 3-5 junior olympians a year out of the area and throughout the country.
the funny thing is, our shop is simple, but VERY effective. we have about a 1970 Montana stonegrinder that is a BITCH to learn, but the best machine in the world once you go throught the hazing and the personal hell to THE feel.
its pretty cool, reshaping the stone is done on a time interval calibration.....most have meters....this one does not. to get the right or mixed structure, the time it takes the diamond to cross and reshape the stone goes by seconds. ive learned it enough to time it in my head, i got er down to a science, haha.
MIDWESTSKIER
suomi@midwestskier.com
CASANOVA FREERIDE
Casanova's Ski and Board Shop
601 Apache Dr.
Wakefield, MI 49968
(906) 224-3231
who's kiddin' who?
as far as the 'ultimate kickass machine goes'.....i can agree with you, i believe it IS a Montana. i know Winterstieger was getting into and i think put out a few machines like this also, but im not positive.
its great, the shop i work in is small, its a midwestern shop, family owned. it is known nationally because of this name and its quality, especially when it comes to racing and tuning. our hardgoods staff is well expireinced and well rounded. really, its only the owner, myself, and one other guy. and im part-time. and the original owner, race god, and coach Francis Casanova. he puts out on average about 3-5 junior olympians a year out of the area and throughout the country.
the funny thing is, our shop is simple, but VERY effective. we have about a 1970 Montana stonegrinder that is a BITCH to learn, but the best machine in the world once you go throught the hazing and the personal hell to THE feel.
its pretty cool, reshaping the stone is done on a time interval calibration.....most have meters....this one does not. to get the right or mixed structure, the time it takes the diamond to cross and reshape the stone goes by seconds. ive learned it enough to time it in my head, i got er down to a science, haha.
MIDWESTSKIER
suomi@midwestskier.com
CASANOVA FREERIDE
Casanova's Ski and Board Shop
601 Apache Dr.
Wakefield, MI 49968
(906) 224-3231
who's kiddin' who?
GT
Member
great thread guys - really informative,
someone told me once to wax your skis until you can feel the heat slightly on the topsheet. Is this coreect? cos i reckon if the heat gets thru to the topsheet then surely its inside the ski- perhaps altering its struture? (consider my 1080s have a FOAM core?)
like i said - thanks for the info.
____________________
www.freeformclothing.com
someone told me once to wax your skis until you can feel the heat slightly on the topsheet. Is this coreect? cos i reckon if the heat gets thru to the topsheet then surely its inside the ski- perhaps altering its struture? (consider my 1080s have a FOAM core?)
like i said - thanks for the info.
____________________
www.freeformclothing.com
GT.
what you heard is correct. let me tell you, it is a SCIENCE! with my personal stuff or team racer's skis i use that method. it is VERY tricky to get used to and there is a VERY thin line between heating up the ski to open the pores(structure) and having TOO much heat to where you will damage your core possibly resulting in edge seperation OR delam.
i know for a fact i could show you the technique in 10-15 minutes but it a hands-on/seeing it happen type of thing. i wouldnt even want to explain it fully on here for the chance of easy screw up and i dont want you to fuck up your gear!
unless.......you live in the midwest and take a trip to the Big Snow Country area, then i would be happy to show you if you stopped in my shop....but i doubt you will ever make it to this hole in the earth called Wakefield! haha
MIDWESTSKIER
suomi@midwestskier.com
CASANOVA FREERIDE
Casanova's Ski and Board Shop
601 Apache Dr.
Wakefield, MI 49968
(906) 224-3231
who's kiddin' who?
what you heard is correct. let me tell you, it is a SCIENCE! with my personal stuff or team racer's skis i use that method. it is VERY tricky to get used to and there is a VERY thin line between heating up the ski to open the pores(structure) and having TOO much heat to where you will damage your core possibly resulting in edge seperation OR delam.
i know for a fact i could show you the technique in 10-15 minutes but it a hands-on/seeing it happen type of thing. i wouldnt even want to explain it fully on here for the chance of easy screw up and i dont want you to fuck up your gear!
unless.......you live in the midwest and take a trip to the Big Snow Country area, then i would be happy to show you if you stopped in my shop....but i doubt you will ever make it to this hole in the earth called Wakefield! haha
MIDWESTSKIER
suomi@midwestskier.com
CASANOVA FREERIDE
Casanova's Ski and Board Shop
601 Apache Dr.
Wakefield, MI 49968
(906) 224-3231
who's kiddin' who?
referring to strode420.....
burton does make a nice tuning kit....also, check out dakine.
chatting with the MW rep last week....dakine is really pushing the tuning side of thier merchandise, i checked some of the stuff out, really good quality. they offer many different kits for as involved as you want to go.
i didnt see the MSRP price on these, but im sure they are decently affordable.....better than buying everything seperate ill say that much.
MIDWESTSKIER
suomi@midwestskier.com
CASANOVA FREERIDE
Casanova's Ski and Board Shop
601 Apache Dr.
Wakefield, MI 49968
(906) 224-3231
who's kiddin' who?
burton does make a nice tuning kit....also, check out dakine.
chatting with the MW rep last week....dakine is really pushing the tuning side of thier merchandise, i checked some of the stuff out, really good quality. they offer many different kits for as involved as you want to go.
i didnt see the MSRP price on these, but im sure they are decently affordable.....better than buying everything seperate ill say that much.
MIDWESTSKIER
suomi@midwestskier.com
CASANOVA FREERIDE
Casanova's Ski and Board Shop
601 Apache Dr.
Wakefield, MI 49968
(906) 224-3231
who's kiddin' who?
GT
Member
ha ha thanks dude but i reckon crossing the Atlantic for a ski-tech tutorial might be a bit much!!!!!
I'll stick with low heat and lots of caution!
Cheers
____________________
www.freeformclothing.com
I'll stick with low heat and lots of caution!
Cheers
____________________
www.freeformclothing.com
the-east-isnt-that-bad
Active member
wow, sucks for all you guys! I just drive a mile down the road and get an unlimited tune-up card for 50 dollars...
I get as many full tune-ups as I want during the season and it's only like 2 or 3 bucks more for them to double check the edges by hand. I used to work at a ski shop and I'm decent at tuning my own skis, but I must say that what they call 'double-checking' is definetely a lot more scrutinous than anythign I can do...
On my way to goddom
I get as many full tune-ups as I want during the season and it's only like 2 or 3 bucks more for them to double check the edges by hand. I used to work at a ski shop and I'm decent at tuning my own skis, but I must say that what they call 'double-checking' is definetely a lot more scrutinous than anythign I can do...
On my way to goddom