Time to Smoke Iraq

information is classified for many different reasons, most importantly being that we need to keep it from our enemies, to protect ourselves. ok so theoretically we endanger our supposed 'sources' on the inside in iraq by releasing this proof. well then lets give them protection if they want/need it. that is a minor concern either way as I see it.

you accuse us as being cruel and heartless for letting Saddam kill his own people. what about the COUNTLESS other rulers in the past 200 years around the world who have committed other similar atrocities to their own people?? Rulers who have done FAR more atrocious things than saddam. why haven't we gone to fight every one of them? what about pol pot in cambodia? he caused the deaths of over 2 million of his own people from 1975-79. a little worse than anything saddam has done no? yet we did nothing. I don't doubt saddam is a bad man; but there are many bad people in power all over the world and the only one we care about is saddam. is it because bush has a personal vendetta against saddam? does he want to set an example for the rest of the world? or is it because iraq sits over the 2nd largest reserve of oil in the world? again, I don't want to start a war with thousands of people dying before we see that he's a threat to the U.S.

If you're so enthusiastic about this war why don't you set an example and go enlist?

 
to accuse the current administration of sitting back and watching during the massacres in cambodia in '79 is rediculous...why not do something good now, despite what past presidents/administrations have done?

'This one goes out to all the virgins...thanks for nothing!!' -- Miles D.

I ski for Head.
 
we knew all this in 1991; why didn't bush the 1st go kill saddam when he had the chance?

why don't we go around to every country that has an oppressive ruler and remove them from power?? Lets just go take over south africa; heck why not the whole continent?? it's such a mess. somehow I find it hard to believe that it is SUpilot's philanthropic side that is calling for this war; you want to kick saddam's ass and show that no one can mess with the U.S. You're no better than our trigger happy president: a cocky arrogant ignorant american the rest of the world hates.

 
who knows...i know he wish he had now. must have been to appease some allied muslim nations...

'This one goes out to all the virgins...thanks for nothing!!' -- Miles D.

I ski for Head.
 
SUPilot, we understand that Saddam Hussein's government has slaughtered Kurds. But I'm sorry to say that UN sanctions kill more people in Iraq than the Iraqi government ever has.

And gravteck, you have good points, but some lines need to be drawn here. U.S. involvement in WWII was a direct result of both Pearl Harbor, and the threat to American interests in the Pacific. The US declared war on nations in WWII. We can't do that in the case of 9/11, because there isn't a nation to declare war on it. Instead we've got a 'global network of terrorism' and an 'axis of evil.' So instead of a defined war, now the US government has the authority to KILL anyone, anywhere, if we're so inclined to believe that they pose a threat to American interests. No trials, no detainment, no warning: the CIA and the US military can put a gun to anyone's head, or a missile to anyone's vehicle (some Yemen pie, anyone?) and get away with it.

The one thing that makes your arguement invalid, gravteck, is the lack of connection between Iraq and September 11th. If a special team of Iraqi commandos had piloted those planes into the towers under orders from the Iraqi government, I'd be all gung-ho for the invasion of Iraq. But that's not the case.

Read this, if you want to talk about the deaths of September 11th, or biological threats, or gassing Kurds: One World News Service (you might have to click it twice).

500,000 dead Iraqi children, from starvation because of sanctions... hmmm.

PLEASE READ: MY POINT

The fact is, I don't give a damn if Saddam Hussein is a raving lunatic or not. He may have gassed tens of thousands of Kurds, and I don't feel great about that, but in today's world it's not the job of the U.S. government to worry about that. The only way bio/chem weapons will hit the air, is if we provoke a war. It's the Iraqi people's job to control their government, not ours. People die everywhere, all the time, from millions of different reasons, but the media and the government focuses our attention in one direction for its own purposes. Millions of people are dying from HIV/AIDS, while the U.S. military budget swells to 396 BILLION dollars. 2,600,000 died from HIV/AIDS in 1999 (this is a LINK to the US govt report stating that figure)... I wonder what the number will be this year? Meanwhile, we spend the fruits of a great nation on bullets and bombs. War only brings more death to the world.

--Disgruntled and Nostalgic Crazed Posting Bro!--
 
bush the first did try to get rid of saddam...lol. although it proves to be a not so easy task when there are 7 of them. the past 200 years???? you need to tune into present day...we not even the same country we were in the 70s. you can look at things as they were back then. times have changed and we have to look at problems keeping in mind that we are not living in the 70s let alone 200 years ago kiddo.

Taste Death. Live Life.
 
And the whole thing about living in fear... well, I wake up every morning afraid of John Ashcroft. Does that count?

--Disgruntled and Nostalgic Crazed Posting Bro!--
 
I meant I agree with kami's first post

and SUpilot you still haven't answered many of my questions, one of which being why don't you go enlist? or are you not old enough? you better watch who you're calling kiddo, junior.

 
the sanctions that you speak of are enforced by the UN and decided on by a UN resolution, not by a US govt policy, and Saddam could have those sanctions lifted if he allowed inspectors access to everywhere they wished to go and didnt shoot at UN planes every time they fly over Iraq...thatd be a good start.

'This one goes out to all the virgins...thanks for nothing!!' -- Miles D.

I ski for Head.
 
enlist?? enlisting wouldnt be the best choice for me personally, but for others it is a GREAT choice. as soon as i graduate undergrad then i will be flying f-16s for the national gaurd on the wknds while i attend medical school during the week. its a great deal for me cause i will be able to fly a balls to the wall plane which i love to do, pay for med school, and fight for something that is right.

Taste Death. Live Life.
 
by the way: one world is one of the most biased sources for this sort of information...i would try to find something else

'This one goes out to all the virgins...thanks for nothing!!' -- Miles D.

I ski for Head.
 
Kami, when I was talking about Pearl Harbor, I don't think I was trying to connect it w/ Iraq, posts tend to get scatterbrained here, but I 'think' I might have been trying to reply to some argument about the Taliban... or shit I don't even really remember. Yea those were the actual nations ordering those strikes, but what this new policy deals with is that since we consider these nations to harbor the terrorists, the terrorist group and their harborers (the government) make it the same thing. So it is the same kind of situation if you take that outlook on it.

c_lo brought up the topic of black ops, or someone else did. The central government doesn't actually authorize this (because the cia is basically doing what they want). Affiliating the CIA w/ the american government w/ respect to black ops is the same kind of thing.

If these countries really are harboring these terrorists to that kind of degree, then you have a loop hole of sorts. The country isn't officially accountable. If the government doesn't authorize CIA action... then the central government isn't officially responsible. But the CIA exists from support of the government, and these terrorist organizations exist in part because of subsidization from these nation states that we seek to take vigilanty measures upon. So I guess my point is that my argument isn't totally invalidated because the picture w/ respects to government is a little different.

 
it seems you either chooses to ignore my remarks flat out, or you lack the inteligence to understand facts that I bring forth, and therefore choose to ignore them. Or, you know I am right, but like all god fearing abortion clinic bombing conservatives, you just love to beat the dead horse with a big stick.

 
Okay SuPilot, you want hard evidence? Go back and actually READ the last 100 or so posts. You're making comments that are completley irrational.

Kamikaze is exactly right, this has nothing at all to do with the USA. How is it Bush's problem? And the UN sanctions DO kill more people than Saddam ever did, that is entirely correct. And the US did a bloody good job at killing the rest of the country that the Taliban didn't, creating millions of hungry refugees, yeah, good one. That was a great idea. So now what are you going to go and do in Iraq? The same bloody thing? And then Korea? Well, where are you gonna stop? I think Canada should flood down from the north and kick your stupid hick asses.

And you said to Kami that we're not living in the same world that we were 30 years ago? This is true but then you talk about F-16's? Balls to the wall?? Maybe YOU should take a walk in the present 'kiddo' *cough* bitch.

~~Phunkin Phatt Phreerider~~

#Cut the Jibba Jabb Crazy Fools! Start Skiing!#

*Be greatful, everyday, for snow, mountains, gravity and skiing*

@Talent Is Important, But Image Is God!@

 
what are you talking about...your saying a falcon isnt a balls to the wall plane?....oh your saying that it cant be because its been in use since the 70s or so right? although maybe you have flown one like me before though and you already know the onset of the plane.

And iraq is the UNs problem???? the US is the UN...we provide 80% of all the funding that goes into the UN. That is why we have so much influence on what is going on. without the US there is NO UN!

Taste Death. Live Life.
 
SVHucker, why don't you enlist in Saddams Royal Guards and shoot some Americans you goddamn pussy whipped son of a bitch tree hugger

New ZealaNd iS WoRtHlEsS
 
all this media coverage and topical hype is simply a means of distracting the public from the things that really matter in life. it seems every week there is a new enemy; a new reason to fear life. i think it's about time we take back control of our lives. rise up! boycott the neo-fascist government that punishes its own citizens for questioning its motives!

if u are to accomplish one thing this new year, make it something no other person will think of doing.

 
yea thats a great idea...so you can pay $20 a gallon for gas and never leave the united states for fear of getting raped...excellent.

'This one goes out to all the virgins...thanks for nothing!!' -- Miles D.

I ski for Head.
 
I have another problem with AIDs. I don't know if you're referring to people within our country or people everywhere. W/ respect to most modern countries... it's your own damn fault that you get AIDs these days. You should have protected and even unpromiscuous sex if you're hoping to stay away from the disease. The days of getting AIDs from blood transfusions are gone. In certain third world countries, and even places like India (which believe it or not is not all out third world) the governments are doing shit jobs controlling their AIDs problem. Instead of fostering education or even research on new AIDs drugs. They simply mass produce generic forms of drugs that are used to slow down AIDs. Bill Gates just gave 100 million dollars to India to help fight their AIDs problem, and they didn't even accept it. My point is, AIDs isn't a problem of the government (unless you're into the whole conspiracy thing), and noone knows how long it is before there is a cure (if there ever will be) so why would it be in the interest of the government to shift to spending a shitload of the budget on AIDs research when they're already spending money on the military for a reason (even if you don't believe the reasons are valid)?

I think it was Tim that said something about creating a bunch of refugees. But as soon as the Taliban was displaced a lot of aid from the red cross was being brought in, and women were starting to get some rights. There is a webpage out there (we looked at in class one day) by an Afghani women's organization that discusses the terror that women suffered under that regime. They even have video clips of executions.

Granted we aren't helping(some of you won't want to hear it called helping so just substitute a better word) EVERY nation that has problems, and we help nations where we do have other interests. But altruism doesn't truly exist well in this world. Isn't it better to help some than none? I'm sure if we would have gone into some of those countries mentioned to help, we would have done something messed up in the eyes of some and would have been criticized for that.

 
maybe if petrol prices were $20/gallon, people would finally realize the need for a switch to sustainable growth.

 
national guard??? haha that's exactly what bush did to get out of actual combat in vietnam. he used his dad's political connections to get one of the final 2 spots over 150 other applicants. this was after scoring the minimum 25 on the qualifying test. he did however, do a great job of defending texas from the north vietnamese.

on a side note, only 28 of 234 sons of senators and congressmen of age actually served time in vietnam. one of those was Al Gore Jr. seems like W. was the pussy here.

 
and of course enlisting wouldn't be the best choice for you, cause you're scared you might GET KILLED. the rest of you, sign up, SUpilot has got your back. when you get hurt, come back here and he'll fix you up good

 
SUpilot, you are the most ignorant person i haveever come in contact with.. and being iraqi, you make me hate the US as a whole more.

Moe.

-

Pimps don't pay taxes.
 
Yo Moe, I think SUpilot is also the most ignorant, arrogant, plain stupid and wrong person I've ever come across also. However I still like the US in general and some of it's peeps are still damn cool. Like Stevie, and Lempke and the rest of 'em.

And SUpilot. I didn't say that the F-16 was a pile of crap, I was implying that you were contradicting yourself, saying one thing about someone else and then proceeding to say how cool something from that same era is. But of course you're too stupid to pick up on the subtlety of my comment so don't worry about it, go like your mom's dags, prick.

~~Phunkin Phatt Phreerider~~

#Cut the Jibba Jabb Crazy Fools! Start Skiing!#

*Be greatful, everyday, for snow, mountains, gravity and skiing*

@Talent Is Important, But Image Is God!@

 
we were talking about an ERA...and the implications were obvioulsy towards policies within that era and more specifically how those policies would warrant different military actions etc as opposed to present day. a plane is a piece of machinery...the f-16 crack made no sense at all.

Taste Death. Live Life.
 
wait you think joining the national gaurd gets you out of the heat????? lol...kids kids. the guard is in the heat just as much as everyone else only they are flying overhead trying to dodge sams and other anti aircraft fire. its not easy to get into the guard...i guess you could say its a 'good boys club'. you have to be outstanding both academically and physically. plus you dont take a test to get in lol. you just show up and start hanging out with the boys and compete for a fighter, or whatever, slot. you have to go to officer training school of first though and plus you have to go thru basic training just like all the enlisted fellers do. its not an easier path to take. and from day one the national gaurd was in afghanistan flying missions and right now a buttload of gaurd guys are buzzing over iraq.

Taste Death. Live Life.
 
whats your comeback gonna be now phattim? supilot is a retard..or arrogant? arrogance doesnt make a person wrong either;)

Taste Death. Live Life.
 
gravtek - that's 234 sons who came of age during the vietnam draft. they were all eligible for duty and only 19 saw combat, with only one being wounded.

and yes SUpilot there is a qualifying test. well at least there was one in 1968 when bush got the numerical minimum of 25 and still got one of the final 2 spots to fly F-102s all over the battlefields of texas. I'm sure it was tough dodging those SAMs fired at him by those crazy mexicans. you worried canada has it in for the new york national guard and is going to shoot you down?

 
You are wrong SUPilot, you're glorifying war, talking about you and your country as being better than other people and their countries. You're patronising, ignorant and plain and simple wrong.

~~Phunkin Phatt Phreerider~~

#Cut the Jibba Jabb Crazy Fools! Start Skiing!#

*Be greatful, everyday, for snow, mountains, gravity and skiing*

@Talent Is Important, But Image Is God!@

 
WARSUX. sorry about the stress before dudes. America is alright i guess, well they do have NOFX and Lagwagon. and pulley, and ataris, and strung out, andd the vandals, and more good bands.

Lagwagon. Is it legal to marry a band?
 
ECFS- Perhaps the BBC is a more reliable news source. Click here.

And maybe Iraq would stop firing weapons at patrolling aircraft if those aircraft were not violating Iraq's soveriegn airspace. A country DOES have the right to defend itself, after all.

gravteck... a bit about black-ops... the way you just described the CIA... Supported by the government, but not controlled by the government... does what it wants... what does this sound like? Hmmm, wait a minute.... TERRORIST ORGANIZATION.

And I won't get into the AIDS debate, although I differ in opinion from you. The AIDS mention was simply as an example... perhaps altruism would fare better if we put more money into it, rather than having a military budget larger than all other nations' budgets combined.

But I'm not the biggest fan of altruism anyway... in my opinion, the best good that my country can do for the world is through a strong, progressive economy... which is being neglected by the warmongers.

But anyway, no matter what we say or do now, seems that war is on the way. 25,000 more troops to the Gulf.

--Disgruntled and Nostalgic Crazed Posting Bro!--
 
Oh one more thing. Don't play the 'its the UN, not the US' blame game. If the UN isn't the US's bellboy, I don't know who is.

--Disgruntled and Nostalgic Crazed Posting Bro!--
 
haha, right on about the UN dude. Seems NATO is much the same really. Funny that the US is the backbone of a force primarily established to prevent communist Russia from attacking Europe.

And yes. It is very very interesting to sit in such a country as New Zealand and watch different news broadcasts. It's amazing how much the people of a country are manipulated by their media, and in turn how much the media is manipulated by it's Government. The CNN is complete trash. If you wish to know what's happening in the world, quite simply don't watch it. It's full of propaganda, statistics (There's lies, damn lies and then there's statistics) and political jibba jabba that tells you what the American government wants you to think. It's very interesting to then go and watch the BBC or Prime news. Broadcasts that are still influenced by political views BUT show both sides of the story rather than just the war-mongering Bush approach of 'Iraq = Bad, let's kill them.'

I'll leave you with a few words from old Abraham Lincoln - 'You can fool some of the people all of the time, all of the people some of the time but you can never fool all of the people all of the time.' - What do you think the media is doing? Hmm, think on it.

~~Phunkin Phatt Phreerider~~

#Cut the Jibba Jabb Crazy Fools! Start Skiing!#

*Be greatful, everyday, for snow, mountains, gravity and skiing*

@Talent Is Important, But Image Is God!@

 
i never glorified or said the US was better than anyone. never at any point did i imply that either. all i said was that we need to get rid of saddam because he is killing innocent people. although maybe iraq is a land of make believe that cnn wants us believe in. the thing about committing genocide on the kurds is fake too i guess...just a big US gov conspiracy.

Taste Death. Live Life.
 
ah why do we even bother, you're too fucking stupid. Stop reading into statements what isn't there!!!! Go away.

~~Phunkin Phatt Phreerider~~

#Cut the Jibba Jabb Crazy Fools! Start Skiing!#

*Be greatful, everyday, for snow, mountains, gravity and skiing*

@Talent Is Important, But Image Is God!@

 
SUpilot, why even bother talking, we all have different opininons, i hate yours, but just give up, its becoming rather annoying.

Moe.

-

Pimps don't pay taxes.
 
Well the CIA is still under government control, but virtually any group can do what they want if they don't get caught. The difference between a terrorist group such as Al Qaeda and the CIA is that the CIA actually does have to answer to someone (they just sometimes pull their black ops off i suppose). If the CIA bombed Buckhingham palace without government permission... well shit there'd be a lot of people in jail. Al Qaeda does it, they don't have any higher body to answer to for their actions and they don't have to worry whether or not their actions are condoned.

The CIA is very important to the security of the United States. This statement isn't being said because of any sort of current situation, but historically that's why they have existed. They do gather intelligence that is necessary for the government to make certain decisions. There is corruption in any government, where certain decisions are made by government groups who aren't caught or regulated and this costs lives. If other governments were just as able, their equivalent of the CIA would cause just as much trouble (when trouble is caused).

 
SUPilot, how am I critic without reason?? Everything I've said has been reason. Tell me you're not THAT dumb, I've eaten donuts that are smarter than you.

Okay, tell me why the US should, or has the right to attack Iraq and remove it's leader?? You say because he's a bad man who's persecuting his people. So what does that have to do with America? Nothing! Not a bloody thing. And you say that any decent humanitarian would do that. Do what? Turn an already poor and poverty suffering nation into a barren wasteland without political guidence and crippling them even more? Humanitarian my ass.

~~Phunkin Phatt Phreerider~~

#Cut the Jibba Jabb Crazy Fools! Start Skiing!#

*Be greatful, everyday, for snow, mountains, gravity and skiing*

@Talent Is Important, But Image Is God!@

 
ok.. this is quite a sick thing... but ill have two things to say here.. anyone else seen this, but usa sees only iraq doing thos massacres to its own people.. like there are also sudan and many other countries that does it. in sudan there are innocent people dying cos their government doesnt like their way of thinking. doesnt that give usa same 'right' to go and kill everyone in there as the seem to have with iraq.. but usa doesnt give a shit because there is nothing in that area that usa wants.. u know they are just bunch of niggers and they should kill eachother... that is just sad.

and second. anyone who says that nukes should be used should be tortured to death.. is there any sense in having a weapon that can destroy all the life on earth, just imagine usa uses nukes on iraq. iraq answer using something else on some other countries, that are allied with usa. then some trigger happy people in korea, libya, and anywhere else, thinks who cares and launches all their nukes somewhere, destroying ALL LIFE on earth.. there is no winner in a war with nukes involved everybody dies.. it doesnt only make a big hole.. there is radiatitaon too.. just watch on the final beach or something(australian program) gives a nice impression what could have when nukes are involved.. so who gives anyone right to posess that kind of weapons.. and usa have like thousands.. they all should be destroyed

P.E.K.K.A=Perverssi Erilaisia Kissaeläimiä Köyrivä Aloittelija

 
ok.. this is quite a sick thing... but ill have two things to say here.. anyone else seen this, but usa sees only iraq doing thos massacres to its own people.. like there are also sudan and many other countries that does it. in sudan there are innocent people dying cos their government doesnt like their way of thinking. doesnt that give usa same 'right' to go and kill everyone in there as the seem to have with iraq.. but usa doesnt give a shit because there is nothing in that area that usa wants.. u know they are just bunch of niggers and they should kill eachother... that is just sad.

and second. anyone who says that nukes should be used should be tortured to death.. is there any sense in having a weapon that can destroy all the life on earth, just imagine usa uses nukes on iraq. iraq answer using something else on some other countries, that are allied with usa. then some trigger happy people in korea, libya, and anywhere else, thinks who cares and launches all their nukes somewhere, destroying ALL LIFE on earth.. there is no winner in a war with nukes involved everybody dies.. it doesnt only make a big hole.. there is radiatitaon too.. just watch on the final beach or something(australian program) gives a nice impression what could have when nukes are involved.. so who gives anyone right to posess that kind of weapons.. and usa have like thousands.. they all should be destroyed

P.E.K.K.A=Perverssi Erilaisia Kissaeläimiä Köyrivä Aloittelija

 
SVHucker you yellow bitch are you making fun of the National Guard, do you know how much violence in America they prevent your not worthy of even speaking about the National Guard who u owe so much too you are a yellow bastard who doesn't deserve to be a citizen of the United States

New ZealaNd iS WoRtHlEsS
 
peka...please...first of all the world does not end if we use a nuke (even though i'm 99% sure we wouldnt use a nuke on iraq anyways cause of the civilian casualties that would result)....we used two of them on japan and it won us a war (directly in japan at least) in that we didnt have to even use troops (no casualties on our side). and lets say we do unfortunately launch a nuke at iraq...it doesnt work like you think. if it gets to the point were we have to nuke iraq (cause they are shooting off bio weapons etc..) then we will absolutely level them without a doubt. there would be nothing left and there would be no way whatsover to retaliate. your comment on the 'niggers' is just stupid and i'll let you think that one over for yourself. you have to understand we are not just going to 'police' as you like to say, iraq and forget about the rest of the world. the US just takes care of the highest priority threats first off and then so on. people dont understand that the act which took place on 9/11 was not only just a terrorist attack, but something of that magnitude is also an act of war. and the US is ready to take on all axis of evil that could be a threat to the rest of the world. in time we will even help your pals in sudan. and i gaurantee you that the US has the MOST resources and aid going into sudan than any country in the world. yet you blame us.

Taste Death. Live Life.
 
SVHucker you yellow bitch are you making fun of the National Guard, do you know how much violence in America they prevent your not worthy of even speaking about the National Guard who u owe so much too you are a yellow bastard who doesn't deserve to be a citizen of the United States

New ZealaNd iS WoRtHlEsS
 
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