THE biggest problem in skiing, much bigger than the hater culture is...

A

australianjibber

Member
The unstructured, pathetic comp scene this sport has. Yes im going to say it again, we need a bloody world tour, and we need it now. The situation at the moment is a great example. You have the Nippon Open and North American Open on at the same time. We rarely see the best skiiers on show together.

This problem can be highlighted by asking opne question: who are the best 10, 20 or 30 skiiers in the world? no one can tell you. None of you can tell me that, and it means our sports growth is being dampened. At any one stage, i can go to the ASP site and tell you who the top 10 surfers in the world are (copmpetitive surfers), the top ten golfers or the top ten NFL teams. Yet none of us have any clue who the best skiiers are. We can make an objective guess, or give an opinion, or say something extremely ignorant and parochial like the name of whoever has won the X-games (just look at the quality of japanese or european riders who dont go to these events and tell me you disagree!).

This sports needs a shake up and fast. We need a world tour, and we need a secondary tour. TGhe sport will grow, it will get direction, and will mean the best guys are on show all the time, and the best guys are getting rewarded, not just the guy who lives in America and qualifies for the US Open. Furthermore, you guys wont be sitting around marvelling at how Jon drives a Lambo, you will be marvelling at the best 50 guys in the world, who are all driving lambos, and owing immense thanks to the companies who now have a much more fruitful medium to advertise their products.

Its all about growth. Those companies can grow, and so can the sport. Skis and products will develop as companies get bigger and spend more money on product development and tech. And we can bring skiing to the world, not just affluent white americans.

I have been on this site for a long time now, and added my fair share of views (i used to be aussiejibber), logging on nearly every day for years. And i am going to ask one thing of all the users out there...just think about what im saying. please. if you are truly passionate about this sport, you will throw some voice behind this propsoal, as you do for skiing in the olympics

thankyou
 
It gets kinda wack. On the positive side, at least the comps are getting a bit more progressive. NOA was a bit better and the invites are always good. Redbull puts on sick comps for not just competitive slopestyle skiers. One way to look at it is that the more comps, the more people get known in different countries. If the top pros can't make it everywhere at once that gives room for lesser known people to step up to the podium. Oh and not to be a dick, but it seems like the world tour comment was classic from an Aussie... typical American stereotyping right?
 
Nice post.

I truly wish skiing had more opportunities for skiers who aren't getting paid 100k a year by their ski company. It would also be sick if skiing had something like the TTR (Ticket To Ride) series which has a bunch of world class events with sick features all over the world. They have a star rating system 1-6 which assigns different values for all the events. The proliferation of good skiing contests is something I'm very interested in.
 


Very nice post - covers exactly what I was thinking after I saw the NA Open results, and more.

I agree about the world tour and a secondary tour completely - never thought about it that way, but it definitely seems like a system that would work. I say we need an FIS of freeskiing (without the douches that do govern the FIS).

 
great post and completely agree. the system needs to be about who busts there ass in training, competing and results! not who is buddies with who and gets an invite because he parties and hangs with "the man".
 
https://www.newschoolers.com/web/forums/readthread/thread_id/310795/

^link to a thread i made a while back about how skiing would benefit from a wct type tour which has some decent input in there.

this season has been kinda mixed as far as comps go- the european big air events like freestyle.ch and king of style went down well, X games was a fucking embarassment, nobody went to USFSO. Redbull playstreets seemed like a fun time and NAO and NO both look like sick comps but both seem to have got a little fucked by the weather and the fact that both are being held at the same time. JO super sessions is going to be epic i think.

Outside of the park its been good- the world freeride tour has been shaken up and is i believe led by none other than henrik windstedt. seems like the new events/new format are going down well. meanwhile the backcountry events like red bull cold rush have really been stepped up this year with some sick shit being thrown down.

It is clear then that despite a few hiccups, notably WX12, comps in general are moving in the right direction. whether the events need to be connected by a "Red Bull World Freeskiing Tour" kinda title is debatable as its hard to tell whether many of the athletes would want to commit to all the events, given filming commitments etc.

It would be interesting if someone like redbull (the only mega corp i can think of that would get behind something like this) put forward a proposal, to see what the general consensus is amongst the athletes...
 
nice post, i would love to see some of the euro skiers like christian bieri to go up against everyone else

 
This is something I have been thinking and working on a lot, but at the end of the day I made the decition that I did not think that the sport is quite ready for this yet,

It took surfing and snowboarding a long time before they had tours like this , that gave the events time to mature and get better so that there was enough good events to hold a legit World tour.

So this is something that I am sure will happen, but before that all the individual events needs to get a bit better, but we are getting closer and I agree that it needs to happen.

But as long as we have events that build courses that does not enable all the tricks that people can do I dont think it will give a fair ranking!(I dont mind small jumps but jumps that are straight up bad is not cool)

A great start would be for all organizers to communicate in the summer to make events not collide and start a communication about formats and judging, thats a great start and then we can work from there...

I actually have a 10 page document that I have written about this...

One of the better posts I have seen on NS...
 


^ Damn Jon, you starting to get addicted to NS too?!?!?!

I guess Jon's got a point - the sport's not ready. It's pretty cool that a pro can go out there and ski, and when he's not skiing, can evaluate the sport in which he is competing. Tanner's managed to do so too. In fact, I watched 'Into the Wild' a couple days ago, and Alex Supertramp reminded me of Tanner - a man searching for the truth in the world in which he is living.

As Tanner said, the sport took a huge step this year - and I think this is only the beginning of a steep ascent for this sport.

 
I'm assuming that was Jon ^ which is very cool. But yeah, skiing definitely needs a actual legit world tour where people can make a name for themselves and at the same time solidify themselves as the best in the world. Right now it just seems like a bunch of random somewhat insignificant comps thrown by whoever feels like it. And also some more stringent standards for the quality of features would be good too as Jon said.
 
I think Jon's got the right idea here, it wouldn't be good to force a

WT when the comps aren't fully developed and where they should be. I agree that skiing needs a World Tour, but I think we need to give it a year or two, and then see where we are.
 
i agree for the most part execept that by creating a world tour it would give the no name skiers who are trying to make a name for themselves a lesser chance of being noticed.

I like jons point of nt pushing and letting the events become sloid and have a good foundation before putting a world tour in.
 
jon has a god point, the event coordinators need to allow for more communication in the planning for these events. If this happens then the sport will be one big step closer to a world tour. Another example of an overlap would be last year when the Candide Invitational was at the same time as the JOI. When two BIG name invitationals are held at the same time there is obviously a huge communication issue in the sport that cant be blamed on one person. It would be amazing if the major event organizers scheduled a meeting in June where they could all sort out dates for the comps and then party at night I guess.
 


Which is where the secondary tour comes in. When those in the secondary tour prove they can dominate the secondary tour, then they can move up and compete in the premier league.

 
First off, a big thumbs up to Australian Jibber for opening up this thread. Also super nice to see someone like yourself Jon weighing in and adding a bit of “reality” to what you see from your perspective. Well I’m going to add my two cents as the owner of www.porterstahoe.com and our four shops in Lake Tahoe.

I’ve had numerous discussions over a beer or two exactly about this topic – the lack of a COHESIVE vision and corresponding tour that is supported at the grassroots level from the average skier to athlete to brand to retailer to event promoter. I’m not going to get into the details of the FIS here and USOC and other countries and how the WRONG people are in charge and the bureaucracy involved because explaining it all is just falling into the same trap.

Here are the facts. Halfpipe skiing won’t be in the 2010 Olympics, and yet this will be snowboarding’s 4th since its trial at Nagano in 1998. Skiercross will officially be in for 2010 but no halfpipe. At some point in time some of the blame for why these sobering facts are reality need to be addressed.

And say what you want to about Burton snowboards and snowboarding in general and Jake Burton Carpenter and his management team, but they single handedly have been on a mission for three decades to get snowboarding its fair due. Sadly there has not been an equivalent company or ownership group in skiing with the same drive and dedication to listen to their athletes and do what they want. I remember a conversation with Kent Kreitler a year or so ago about ski shapes and wider / rocker powder skis and how he and McConkey in the mid 90’s had ideas WAY ahead of their time that got shot down by suits and engineers with ski manufacturers. So I shake my head a bit when I hear that “snowboarding” has had longer to get it’s shit together because in reality it hasn’t. During the same period it just had the owner of the major company in its sport have a vision and a plan.

So then I’ve also looked myself in the mirror lately and asked myself what I – as an influential retailer in our sport – could be better doing to get this ball rolling. Former Olympian, Electric and Skullcandy consultant, and outspoken critic Jimbo Morgan and I have had a couple of great conversations in the last 12 months about this very topic.

So my point to all of this? It’s high time that I reach out to some owners of other shops that give a damn about skiing (like the evo crew for example) and make sure at least that we have a unified voice with the athletes – and then start SWIFTLY applying pressure to manufacturer’s and promoters. This can happen more quickly than what people are hinting at…..it’s just going to take the right mix of people sitting in a room together to lay out the game plan just like the snowboarding community did. I certainly pledge to stop just talking about all of this and get some action going by rolling up my sleeves to help move the process along however I can.
 
If there is a world tour it would almost certainly be invite only which would shoot down hopes of unknown up-and-comers who have a chance to get get noticed by entering comps like us open, nippon open, and north american open. Look at ppl like Wallisch who blew up in a matter of a year or two, you dont see ppl come up that quickly in other sports like skateboarding where they have tuors and all the big competitions are invite only
 
why would it have to be invite only? look at surfing- you have the WCT (world champions tour): 45 guys that all compete at the dozen-or-so events throughout the year. Below that is the WQS (World Qualifying Series) and each year the top few finishers win places on the 'CT the next year. This is the ideal way to allow young guns with real talent to "make it". Look at recent years- Bobby Martinez, Jeremy Flores, Jordy Smith... these guys have all made it from the 'QS to the 'CT and are now set to challenge the established elite. Why wouldn't that work for skiing? In fact I think the new Freeride World Tour has a similar system- an elite tour supplemented by a qualifier series...
 
hahahah

but seriously tahoechappy, perfect example of someone who has the pull to be able to do it. big company sponsered events along with shops like you, evo, bc.com, and big retailers who have the ability to sit companies down and show them how real and beneficial a world tour could be would be great.

 
EXACTLY

Nice post about the WCT and the fact that it doesn't have to be invite only.

To be sure, a corresponding ski tour can't be one, single tour only that gets hi-jacked by a small group of people or sponsors or Crocs or some bullshit. That's why you need a unified, cohesive plan and direction for skiing in general, contest and judging formats, the number of contests / tours, and making sure that you always have an amateur pipeline to feed whatever is happening on the professional level.

And just as you shed some light on the surf comp scene, skateboarding is another sport that has TONS of opportunities for amateurs. There are hundreds of contests at the am level that are supported by major brands / shops that even sometimes feature entry-level contracts. Whether it's the Tampa Am, or the Damn Am series, or Concrete Rodeo, or Volcom or someone like Vans with their own parks there's tremendous support from the manufacturer's side and yes kids can blow up just as quickly if you have the bag of tricks and style to throw down against the pros. Now getting an invite to Summer X or the Mountain Dew tour is like a next-to-impossible proposition, but at least there are avenues if you're an am.
 
I think one of the worst things to happen to progression of this sport is the introduction of Big Money to competitions. Big Money doesn't show up at a contest because he likes skiing. Big Money shows up because Big Money wants to get bigger--and he really doesn't give a shit about bringing the little guy up or "progression." Actually, Big Money wants Simon Dumont and Tanner Hall to win every event. Why? Because outsiders don't know who Tom Wallisch is and Tom Wallisch isn't going to convince anyone to shop at Target. Don't believe me? Ever see how pissed off the networks get when a small market team makes the World Series or NBA Finals? Less fans means worse ratings which means less money for Big Money.

So what does Big Money want? He wants a World Tour with cookie cutter events where a handful of uber-rich super-pros dominate. That way, Big Money can bet all his cash on a handful of guys and be guaranteed a return. Forget about making a living if you're a little guy. With the exception of one or two a year, the competition will be rigged against you. If you don't podium, you won't be sponsored. There's the old NASCAR saying, "What wins on Sunday, sells on Monday." That will be the end of it for the little guy.

Let's make a case study of snowboarding. While I know many will disagree with me, a large chunk of snowboarders will say the most innovative and fun movie from last season was Thanks Brain. And yet where is Jesse Burtner, Scott Stevens and Johnny Miller on the TTR Rankings? I can't find them anywhere (because they don't compete). For that matter Lucas Magoon and Mike Casanova (two heavy hitters on rails) fall below 500 in the rankings. The TTR means an entire lively, innovative and progressive segment of the sport goes unnoticed and unpaid.

As far as an Am series is concerned, I doubt that it will provide much of a living for the up and comers, with the exception of the one or two that can break through each year.

What do we need for progression and for new skiers to emerge? We need many events that can combine young unknowns and well-known stars with innovative formats. The problem is, how do you currently get big pros to show up at an event? Have a large prize purse. How do you get a large prize purse? You convince Big Money to show up by televising an event non-skiers can understand with names they recognize. In other words, eliminate progression and don't cover the unknowns. It happened to my unknown friend, Errol Kerr in the XGames. He beats Darron Rahlves in SkierX but who does ESPN interview after the race? Rahlves.

The only exception to this, that I see, is if big pros do what Jon and Travis Rice have done. Convince their sponsors to back innovative events. The next step is that those pros then have to have the courage to step aside and let the up and comers shine. I mean, come on Jon, step aside at your own event and let Bobby Brown get the spotlight for a change. He's exactly what this sport needs.
 
Good call. I think people would look at Park skiing a lot more seriously than just an extreme sport. Snowboarding was able to get that respect why cant we? I mean this would also help get halpipe and maybe park Skiing into the Olympics. If you think about it its kinda like gymnastics on snow.
 
Another great post - and what I meant by a theorectical Ski World Tour getting hi-jacked by Crocs - which of course = your excellent Big Money example. Which is why taking a look at Surfing's WCT is an interesting angle. Sure there is Big Money helping put on the events, but at least there is a ranking system and someone like Jesse Burtner could get into a comp if that's the scene they wanted to be down with.

And you're 100% dead on with guys like Travis Rice and Quiksilver's "Natural Selection" event - which just ties back in to my original post and how the manufacturer's really need to push contest skiing in the right direction. It's going to take a unified voice all the way around to steer this ship in the right direction and avoid Big Money taking over.

And we sponsor Errol so I hear ya on that front. At least he got more extensively interviewed when the Jeep / 48Straight was at Squaw a few weeks ago.....
 
The only problem Is there are so many disciplens in freeskiing. So the question would be do you combine the rankings and have all athletes participate in slopestyle, pipe, and big air. Or seperate rankings for all three?

I guess thats not rele the only problem. But I think it would be sick if it would happen, Im sure Versus would jump all over it.
 
But a big difference between ski and snowboard sponsorships to certain events is their true backing of that discipline.  Look at snowboard companies; the majority of their market is directed at freestyle, which is directly connected with slopestyle and pipe contests.  In skiing, many companies with money (the majority anyways) don't necessarily put much emphasis into freeskiing or whatever you want to call it.  The market just isn't as big as other target markets, hence their decision to not fully back creative, "risky" ideas or contests.  And then the indy companies don't have the ability to drop the money needed to put together a full scale year long contest schedule.

Not that I have a solution, just kind of playing devil's advocate.  It really doesn't matter, everyone should just go ski powder.
 
great post!

but, most top riders dont have enough money to travel or dont really want to show up. Its a good idea to set up a world tour, but face it either the pros are handling jobs, or just away.

It should be like the freestyle acrobatic competitions, at least we may tell who are the best.

 
Your points are mostly very good and insightful, however:

1] If Jon/other big name pros were to step aside to enable the Bobby Browns to win the comp, then sure you get lesser-known guys winning but their victory is less prestigious beacuse they haven't beaten the big names, you see?

2] The good news is that increasingly people like Jon, Candide, Tanner etc. are becoming huge, huge influences to corporations/sponsors. because these guys have worked so hard, Red Bull seems to be ploughing serious $$$ into events like playstreets, cold rush, gap sessions etc. thanks to the work of jon, tanner, simon etc. Quiksilver puts serious money behind candide's event and now it looks like simon is getting Target involved too.

Big Money doesn't have to be a bastard, provided he is being cajoled by the right guys. Big money only fucks shit up when he runs shit by himself (see X Games debacle). Another example would be the Nippon Open- seems to have been a good event despite the weather that worked out well for the riders. Loads of sponsor money must have been thrown in, and that translated to a good comp because Mike D was event coordinator.

Bottom line: the big names must continue their excellent work in getting the sponsors to give them money and let the guys with the athlete/sport's interest at heart spend it : )
 
I don't propose that every pro should step aside and let the up and comers shine. It just seems strange to me that Jon designs a course, hires the judges and then participates in his event. I wasn't surprised to see him on the podium. I'm saying that pro skiers need to be involved with event design and execution to keep it progressive, but shouldn't be rigging, or giving the impression that they could be rigging, the competition to their advantage. And perhaps the best way to avoid that is to not participate in your own event or rider designed events could end up as another form of hegemony.

Here's another anecdote of caution regarding Big Money. One large reason that Errol Kerr came to the attention of the producers and got any coverage at the latest 48straight event is because he was the subject of mini documentary that appeared on the jeep skiing site. When the mini doc first appeared, someone from Jeep got upset because Errol drives a beat-up CHEVY Astro Van that appears in the video. Fortunately, someone with backbone refused to pull the video and the Jeep Representative realized they were being an idiot. However when Jeep pays your mult-million dollar tab, you're not going to challenge them too often. It would have sucked that Errol would have gotten no coverage because of Big Money's priorities. And I don't believe there is any way to keep Big Money in check when they're paying the bills.
 
I agree that the designer and creator of the event should probably sit that one out. I can imagine that it would be a fun event to participate in because it would be exactly what you would want to hit, but may be that Jon should have judged instead.

 
If it was an open competition that would be awesome and I would definately be for that. What I'm saying is that if its a tour, a good deal of profits would come from the spectaor turn out, and seeing as there is only a certain numbers of spots in any given competition it would be more profitable to invite only pros and crowd recognized names that would ensure a bigger spectator turn out (for example x-games)
 
i can see skiing progressing to a point like this. look at nao, this event progressed competition skiing so much. it was windy so they called it off for a while and gave the athletes who were cheated by the weather re-run. i believe skiing will have a wt here in the near future.
 
No, the biggest problem in skiing is that people CARE who the top ten competitive skiers are. In snowboarding, nobody gives a shit about competitions.
 
good idea but only problem is how do you define the 'best skiers'? whoever wins a park comp? but does that mean they're any better than the backcountry guys who shred it out there. you can't name the best skier in the world because skiing is so diverse- theres so many different aspects of it and so much freedom.

so what, do you do a comp where they gotta shred the bc lines and then go to park and throw 14's?

see my point?
 
Firstly id like to say im overwhelmed by the quality and depth of the replies to my post. I have opened a few threads about this problem in the past (and i have read and responded to a few that rastafarider has created), and there has never been so much support from the NS community. These things have to start somewhere.

Heres my views on a few of the responses:

To those who think it will give unknowns a lesser chance - entirely not so. The ASP has, in my opinion, the perfect structure. Each year, the top 15 skiiers from the WQS (the secondary tour) advance to the WCT, where the last 15 surfers lose their spot on the tour (with a few exemptions for injuries included). In addition to this, guys on the CT are NOT excluded from surfing on the QS, meaning a lot of the guys on the verge of losing their CT card surf on the QS...so you can see, the BEST guys stay on tour- if theyre good enough to still be on the CT, they will qualify via the QS.

The other thing is, all the guys on the WCT are BIG names, and so are most of the 200 or so guys competing on the QS. You see, what happened, is that after the creation of the WCT, the companies grew so fast, and so big. Billabong, for exmaple, is now a publicly listed company, and one of Standard and Poors top 200 companies on the Australian Stock Exchange. So as the companies got bigger, they were able to put substantial amounts of money into research and devlopment, and also into the next big names of the sport. It is now a cut-throat competition for surf companies to get the signing of the young guns (i can go down the beach today and be guranteed to see a 10 year old kid with some form of sponsorship from quiksilver - they want him to be the next big thing, and they are willing to put money and time into his development so the sport can get better - and of course, so they can make more $).

So you can see how its a cycle - companies want more money, they want to sport to grow, so they are happy to put money back into the sport, whether it be via the next 'young gun' kid down your local beach, or through the guy showing promise on WQS.

This leads me to my second point: with a world and secondary tour, comes the amazing medium for companies to promote their products....and this is where the cycle continues, and where the growth is driven from. Again, companies grow, more money goes into R&D, and the sport gets better.

Thirdly, some of the highest paid people in the surf industry are those who are 'freesurfers'...they BY NO MEANS go unrecognised. Now that these companies are so viable, they have thrown money behind all the guys out there like Dave Rastavich, Rob Machado, Shane Dorian, Ry Craike and countless big wave chargers like Brad Gerlach and Snip Parsons. This could happen to skiing as well. There wouldnt be this situation whereby the only way on the sport growing would be through going in comps, and the comp scene.

Another interesting point is that some people say, 'well, with all the comp skiing, how will they find time to shoot dvds'....there is a huge window for filming in surfing, and one of the great things about this is that it has seen the surf media grow immensely. Companies now have enough money to not only bring out one surf movie a year, but there is now a dvd with nearly every monthly edition of your favourite mag (oh yes, and the mags have flourished as well). All of this has come from the growth companies have derived from the creation of a healthy medium for their sport and their products to be portrayed.

And now my biggest point: The BEST surfers are recognised, and get the dues they deserve. Everyone knows who the best guys are, and you dont have the situation of some struggling scandi, american or japanese ripper going by unoticed. WE WANT TO SEE THE BEST GUYS ON DISPLAY EVERY MONTH, AND THIS IS WHAT A WORLD TOUR WOULD DO. And imagine how much better these guys would get, and how they could push the sport, when they are competing directly against each other maybe 10 or 15 times a year. And instead of everyone not really knowing where and when Jon is going to be competing, or when and where we will see Oscar Scherlin ski next, we would all know....we would all be sitting here saying....i cant wait for the next stop on the tour, The (your company name here) Open.

The main thing is that if a medium was there, one which the whole ski world would be focussing on week in week out, you wouldnt be begging for sponsorship, companies would be begging organisers to get their brand on display.

And to one of the best points, which just so happened to be Jon's, you are spot on. One of the biggest issues would be course design and judging. But if all the athletes got together, and gave their opinions on where the sport should be heading, and what they want to be rewarded, then im sure an agreement could be reach.

Hopefully this post will get a few more great responses from you guys (and hopefully you didnt get too deterred by the length of it!)
 
you make a really good point. i thought of your post when i replied to what Jon said. the answer is not a simple one, but it would mnost definitely have to be a group decision of all people with a vested interest in my opinion.

If it was up to me, all disciplines of freeskiing would be covered, with BC, big mountain pipe and slope. But i think if it was truly going to be a success, you would obviously have to take a real in depth look of how to make it as financially secure as possible, whilst taking the sport to where it needs to be, and in a positive way. That would involve the coordination of financial specialists, events specialists, potential sponsors, and of course, the athletes, whose opinion would have a serious weighting.

in reality, no one person can really answer this question alone
 
^arguably the best, most well thought out and thought provoking post I've ever witnessed on NS : )

one thing which I don't think you specified about your vision is whether or not the proposed tour would be just park (i.e. slope, pipe, big air) or a wider encompassing tour that included bc freestyle events and big mountain events?

I only ask because in surfing, the 'ct guys are expected to have to tackle 10 ft chopes or pipeline, and 3ft hossegor in the same seasons: the 'ct tests every aspect of performance surfing. are you proposing to include all elements of freeskiing in the tour or just park?
 
That's a pretty harsh allegation, and it's way off base. The judging was completely fine this weekend, and there is no way that any of the events that Jon has put on have had judging slanted toward him. He had many of the same judges that the X-games had, and lots of people that have been around the ski industry for a long time that have a reputation to uphold. He doesn't just call up his friends and have them judge. The point about him designing the course is also off because almost every competitor agrees that Jon makes the best jumps, period. Ideally, it would be nice if someone who never competed could design the course and put on the event, but it doesn't seem like they get it right.

You seem to be confusing that Jon could stack the judging and rig the course to his advantage (but even building stepoverish jumps doesn't seem unfair to me- making features that allow riders to do all their tricks seems fair.. after all, isn't that the point of having a nice course? And you can most definitely throw switch 10's over them if you want to) if he wanted to with him actually doing it. I mean, do you really dispute that he should have gotten second, based solely on his skiing?
 
best post over, but how would amatures like my self be able to get into something like this? I personally think the best people in skiing haven't even been discovered yet. so would you have to work your way up...orrr? I dunno there are just a ton of variables to be worked out with, most people I know couldn't afford to travel the world and ski, unless you had serious big names backing this I dont know if it would work, but if theres anyone that can really do it it would probably be some of the guys on newschoolers, keep posting this is awesome.
 
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