Terrorists Kill One Million+ People.

I think you may want to just revise that estimate to "I have no fucking idea" instead of just splitting the difference between your obviously flawed poll and one that has some minor kinks as well.

And yes, that number, whatever it is, is still absurdly above what should be acceptable by any moral human being.
 
Please just look at what YOU wrote before reputing and twisting my words

You immediately labeled me as some crazy liberal who just has to inform everyone about the war as if they didn't know a thing. You pulled the political spectrum card, not me. Such a statement makes me assume that my political piece is ultra liberal, which you clearly disagree with, which led me to assume you are "conservative". I responded to your comment about "you're still using human deaths as statistics blah blah blah". Notice how you in NO WAY try to argue the legitimacy of the the studies. You attack the fact that I make the simple comparison of a few major crisis' in order to appx show the toll of this war. Because the fact is, the general public could give a shit about the death of people of there. We are still mourning over 911, and rightfully so (r.i.p), I was merely pointing out how a small scale attack such as that can cause such turmoil. But at the same time no one understands just how bad things are outside our little american bubble in terms of death/human rights violations ect ect ect.
 
Ohhh sarcasm suggesting that he does not feel repulsion of or empathy toward the Iraqi situation.

Look at this picture and tell me you don't feel at least repulsion toward it, and also empathy if you have even witnessed a loved one die in a horrible way.

WARNING:

DISTURBING MUTILATED IRAQI CHILD PHOTO
dead-iraqi-child.jpg


 
I am so happy you have turned this argument into, "ya well even if your views are well intended, you will never understand them and therefore you are a bad person!!!" Do I understand death? Fuck yes as well as anyone moderately educated. Can I understand 800,000 deaths? I dont think any living person can. If you want to turn this into criticizing me because I don't understand the atrocity of this war, I believe you have run out of steam or are one of the most cynical fucks I have ever talked to.
 
He actually does respect some forms of political liberalism, as I respect some forms of political conservatism. But I'm going to let him defend himself.

Deal with me if you want a challenge. Giuliani is a fucking douchebag for using deaths for furthering his political agenda, as are the radical liberals that want to call attention to problems by citing death tolls in the same manner. Both camps disgust me to my core.
 
Cheers to that man.

Almostaskier. Self Proclaimed Christian. Figures.

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So what, some of the most progressive thinkers of our time were Christian, and some of the stupidest people I know are self proclaimed atheists. Your religious convictions should have no impact on your morality - your morality should define your religious convictions.
 
Haha, YES.

Btw, I love when religion and politics manage to merge themselves into an epic shitstorm of doom.
 
Sometimes I wish I were a mod so I could tyrannically delete things at will. Damnit, why isn't JD online?
 
I'm actually closer to self loathing than a narcissist, it just so happens that my hate for particular people surpasses that of myself. I'm also not a Nazi, the tight leather boots and the funny pants never suited my figure.
 
"m not here to attack anyones views, but please take into perspective how many people one million is and examine your stance..."

Maybe you need a lesson in the English language, because your "but" clearly points that, you are, in fact, aware that you may be challenging people's views. "Examine your stance" clearly implies a political idea about the war, and that the death of 1 million (give or take) human beings is political incentive in your direction. So maybe you should watch your language, unless people understand your dishonesty in supposedly not taking or implying a side.

I have no quarrel with stating that the Iraq war was morally unjustifiable from the get go. If you knew me, you'd know I lived in France during the run up to the war, and I, along with the rest of Europe, called the true motivations to the war as war for profit, nothing else. If you knew my stance on wars, you'd know that i equate them to power lust over any definable ideological drive other than pure profit at the expense of whatever gets the job done (see Crusades).

I don't attack the articles and studies, though they are iffy to say the least, because that's not my beef. My beef is with your masquerade as a person with the moral higher ground by assuming that you could put these people's death into perspective, when you come from no background to do so, and indeed come at this from a political slant, exploiting and dehumanizing the dead as mere stats to use as an argument against the war (not war in general), and fodder for your "side".

You're exploiting people's grief, that is my beef.

Now, it is rather funny that you bring up religion as a definite tell on my political slant, and a truly american thing at that. I dunno if you've ever heard of ad hominem, but posting my profile stuff would fit the bill, as if somehow my religious views affected what i've said to you in any way. There you go again, discrediting anything I may have to say based on bullshit partisan lines and a priori. Bah sheep, Bah.

So, basically, i agree with you that the war is horrific, i disagree with your pawning of human suffering to make a political point. But you gots to get all huffy about partisan lines, and you have definitely bought intot he idea that as a Christian, I somehow am the antithesis of you.

I'm a registered democrat, who grew up in Europe his entire life, who still sees some need for socialist ideals in the USA, who is about as progressive as you get on immigration, yet conservative with regards to certain moral dilemmas, and i am an evangelical christian. I guess, though, with your great humane moral compass, that you have me pegged.
 
Yet, you seem within some sort of aura of perspective giving. That is my only gripe: throwing percentage points around when they represent human beings to the fullest.
 
The picture you posted is more effective than throwing large numbers around, especially when they're approximations of HUMAN BEINGS. The rhetoric being used is way off base.
 
Well I mean it doesn't help when we run operations like "shock and awe", and unlike older wars the terrorists are against the people of the country too (suicide bombings).
 
That's war. Tough luck. Like it or not, that's the way it is. Be glad it's only a million, the wars to come will be far far more gruesome I'm sure. This war is just a game of puppets before anything really hits the fan in the middle east, which it will in our lifetimes, I'm almost positive on that.
 
That is the dumbest most thickheaded thing i've ever heard. This is why I hate when any american talks about the war. Its just a casualty of war? Do you know how big 1 million really is? Thats not even the death toll, but if it was, do you have any clue how much 1 million bodies is? Do you know what its like for people to run through your city, destroy your infastructure, and kill your family? You don't, so you don't have any perception of war. You see it at this thing that happens far far away that can't possibly effect you.

I was born in Bosnia and lost everything because of the Bosnian war. The city I was born in was sieged for the longest time in modern military history. Half my family is dead as a result, and the city I love is never ever going to be the same no matter how much rebuilding is done. Theres too much pain and anger throughout my country now, if you walk down the sidewalks you still see the mortar holes on the sidewalk filled in with red plaster that they left as a reminder. Only(ACCORDING TO YOUR TWISTED FUCKING STANDARDS) 200,000 people died in this war, and the entire fucking country was effected. Its only numbers to you, you never connected a number to a face in your entire life. Typical fucking American mindset .
 
If you consider the instability in the country its not that farfetched. Theres militias, religious massacres, armed forces fighting, police force fightings, suicide bombs basically every day. Baghdad is fucked up dude, a lot more than we all think. Im sure that many people have died, but that doesnt mean that its all americans killing iraqis. Arguably Americans invading caused the instability thus becoming responsible for the deaths, but like I said its arguable.
 
War is war. 1 million people ISN'T that much if you think about it. Do you know how many people fucking die in 1 day? tons, shitloads. Thousands of people are dying in Africa, and the deathtoll there is climbing quickly aswell, but nobody fucking cares about it enough to put it on the news. People in this country feel 0 emotional attatchment to any of these fucking terrorists/iraqis unless they know them personally. Do I feel bad that they died? sure I do, but I know DAMN well if I lived in Iraq id be out by the time the US soldiers were in. In world war II, Russia lost 20million people, the jews that died are estimated around 6 million. When you think of WWII, do you think about how many Russians died? fuck no, you think about the holocaust and the jews because we've seen pictures/movies about that shit, and we understand maybe a little bit. In reality, the aveage person in a civilized and peaceful (civilly peaceful) country doesn't even think about people dying anywhere. We look at the papers, we see oil prices and eventually the hometown hero that died in battle fighting for this glorious war. Shut the fuck up about American mindsets, just because you've experienced it d oesn't make your opinion better than anybody elses because so many people die a day, it doesnt fucking matter who died when. My grandma died 3 years ago, my uncle/aunt/niece died 6 years ago in a car accident, my grandpa died when before I was even born, It doesn't matter. I'd rather know they died fighting for a cause to rid the war of terrorism than because they smoked too much and ate too many cheeseburgers.
 
Ya that about sums it up. Glad I didn't have to when I got into work haha.

"That is the dumbest most thickheaded thing i've ever heard. This is why I hate when any american talks about the war. Its just a casualty of war? Do you know how big 1 million really is? Thats not even the death toll, but if it was, do you have any clue how much 1 million bodies is? Do you know what its like for people to run through your city, destroy your infastructure, and kill your family? You don't, so you don't have any perception of war. You see it at this thing that happens far far away that can't possibly effect you. "

Do I know how big 1 million bodies is? No. Do you? Sure you've seen death and destruction, but you can't say you are any more humane than I am because you have seen the deaths of those plagued by an ongoing war.

You were born on this Earth, and more importantly (or unfortunately?) in the 21st century. War is a part of life. Do I feel terrible about the innocent lives lost, all those people hopelessly slaughtered? You're fucking right I do. Just because I haven't seen it doesn't mean I can't invision myself in someone elses shoes. Inhumane as you may label me, I am still gifted with an imagination and rational thought. But it still comes down to the fact that it is WAR. People die, whether justly or not. Nothing is going to change that. Sure you may hate the war, the bush administration, and everything this country stands for; but that isn't going to stop war. Maybe this one will end soon, and peacfully, but there will be another, and more people will die. I realize how cynical that sounds, but that's life.

With modern warfare as it is today, I honestly hope that 1 million deaths is the least that we see in any wars. The potential for catastrophe is enormous, as I'm sure we're all aware of. I just hope that next time it isn't worse.
 
First off, 1 million is not even the number. Its about 80k(Only civilian), I posted the link but it seems noone checks it and just assumes 1 million is correct. First off, WWI and WWII had so many casualties as a result of the entire world being involved in the war in one way or another. Of course there is going to be tons of deaths, its the entire world engaged in war. In the matter of the Iraq war, where its one Country engaging another, there should not be 1 million. Your perception on numbers is totally wrong. The war has so far lasted 4 years, if there were a million casualties, an average of 913 Iraqi civilians would have to die a day for four years straight. So a million is not fucking acceptable, that would constitute a genocide. Don't try to talk about modern warfare and its potential for causality when you don't even realize who ridiculous what your saying really is. Modern warfare is supposed to be just that, modern. With the technology and high grade missiles and satellites we have to track and precisely bomb the enemy, civilian casualties should be at an all time low. NOT WWI & II levels cause they just carpet bombed everything. Reiterating my point that Americans have no fucking clue what a war really means.

The same link, again:

http://www.iraqbodycount.org/
 
interesting thread. I recently heard an npr report (some guy from The Pew research) on these different tallys. His main point was to consider is their criteria.... for example some estimate the death toll by combat injury & incidental/collateral death, some also include death contributed to war time stress deaths.

An example of a war time stress death may go something like this: Someone died before their life expectancy of say a heart attack or something, it could be attributed to war time stress(his friend died, his house got shelled, he lost his job etc. could all be stress factors). Another ex: Lets say you got a nasty infection from an abscessed tooth or something, because of the inability to get proper treatment (attributed to war) the infection migrates to your brain and you die. (yea sucks I know) Deaths such as these are not caused by combat, directly or incidentally but are a consequence of a war effected environment.

These deaths are not any less significant and do not hold any less weight than a combat/incidental death, but I think to not specify can potentially be used to mislead people. Use your heads be skeptical of outlying numbers(low or high) Criteria, and methods.
 
I was actually only using a million because you said it earlier. As well as almost everyone else in this thread. I do not think that it is remotely even near 1 million, but I have little factual evidence to back that up. You still missed other points.

Anyways, while modern warfare should bring down civilian deaths among other things, that is only one sided. Those numbers will only remain low until the first nuclear weapon is used, and hope to God that never happens.
 
only?? thats alot of us.. are you saying you wouldnt back the us and all the familys that lost loved ones?
 
In each of my posts I mention that 1 million is not the real number, wheres the confusion? I didn't miss any points, I you said that 1 million was acceptable in modern warfare, and now you say that modern warfare should bring down civilian causalities. I addressed your points, you just decided to change one of yours.
 
Haha no, not at all. You may have said the number was wrong, but many people have been using 1 million. I just chose 1 million in general to go along with what everyone else was saying.

My point was that 1 million in warfare is not all that bad, it's terrible that so many families lost loved ones and that innocent people lost their lives, but it's still war after all. You contradicted that by saying that it should be the opposite, with less deaths except for militant targets due to the precision and accuracy of current technology. I feel that that viewpoint is only onesided though. It only lasts until someone comits an act that deserves fierce retribution.

Look at it this way, we could bomb the hell out of military targets in a less advanced country and have very few civilian casualities. This would be fantastic. However, eventually in some war in the future, someone will retaliate and I foresee it being with nuclear weapons. Once that line is crossed, it doesn't matter if we have the ability to only hit precise targets. That is where modern warfare is heading. I consider it lucky that we haven't hit that point yet, but we may be getting close. I never said modern warfare should bring down civilian casualities. YOU said that. I agreed with you to a certain extent, but feel that it will only be onesided. I hope that helps alleviate some of your confusion.
 
Wow, 88000 isn't very much? We all feel sorry about one guy we dont know that was close to a member who died. Now you tell me that 88000 is no big deal. Come on people, these 88000 deaths represents friend, family and parents, how dare you tell me its no big deal.Do you know why you say 88000 is not much, its because its not your friends and family that are dying. You all sicken me.

I feel for the Iraquis and Afganis, RIP and I hope you found the peace the war took away from you. Im sorry I cant speak arabic.

 
for those of you who don't know the actual numbers, its way over a million, 1.5-2 million and has cost us about 500000000 BILLION $!!!!!!!
 
These are confirmed. And these are CASUALTIES. And yes super fucked up. The one million estimation stems from the random polling as the pentagon DOES NOT keep track of the death toll.
 
Why don't you spread your infinite wealth and idea political views else where? You fucking come onto a ski website to flame any one who brings up info/ideas which you find unacceptable. I know you are a smart guy, but the fact that you come on here and try to undermine every fucking person is just lame. Join a debate team or something to get your superior intelligence some exercise.
 


Ok, how could I have better presented the information? Said heres how many people died, but this number is insignificant because I CANNOT UNDERSTAND DEATH and therefore I should support the war, because this death toll does not make me cringe blah blah blah. How do you think that would make me sound? I am showing how many poor people have lost their lives in one way or another, and putting that number into perspective by showing other major atrocity death rates. You are arguing for the sake of arguing, please try to be reasonable.

Truly american hahahah yeah right, seeing as our country is based around christianity and we have fucking evangelicals running for president. That statement would have been a truly french.

But yeah, Im a sheep, because I don't let a corrupt religion lead my life. How about you think for yourself? You are a goddamn evangelical. No offense man, but that is the most dogmatic and small minded group of people on this earth! And you again are self proclaimed! One who feels it is his civic duty to inform anyone who looks at his profile that he is a catholic...something wrong with that.

Ok cool you have some reasonable ideals, at least you aren't completely brainwashed...

So I am so sorry I sparked a nerve with JC number 2 and that my moral standards sub par.

This fits my harsh generalization about you, because you as an evangelical immediately act as though my morality standards are unacceptable, and only YOU are enlightened to call me out on that.

 
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