Technical outerwear info thread. (gore-tex)

Fish_Sandwich.

Fish_Sandwich.

Active member
I was just fucking around looking at jackets made by various companies.

The first thing I look at is the waterproofness.

So if a jacket is 10k waterproof it means what exactly? 10,000 mm of water on top of it won't permeate the membrane? That's what I was told previously.

A lot of jackets just say they are gore-tex and have no waterproof rating. It says gore-tex is guaranteed to keep you dry, so would it be safe to say it is at least 25k waterproof?

Cause some of the sessions stuff says it's 30k, but then it lists no rating and just says "guaranteed" cause it's gore-tex.

So I'm confused here cause usually if a product lists no rating I assume it's probably no good, but if it says it uses gore-tex I assume it's top of the line.

AKA: I have lots of time on my hands to do shit like this before college starts.

 
pretty sure that is it as follows:

normal gore-tex: 28,000

gore-tex softshell: 30,000 (which is what sessions uses on some jackets, although they also use normal gore-tex)

gore-tex xcr: 45,000

it depends where you live a lot. in colorado I was fine with 10,000. After moving to washington and now oregon, I will not use anything less than 20,000 and all of my stuff is gore-tex, so 28,000.

 
Thanks a ton man.

I live in Washington too, going to Western in a few days as a freshman

I try to always get 20k stuff too, makes the damp weather more enjoyable around here haha.

When I was in Colorado I was fine with 10k too, it was just colder (Copper & snowmass anyway).

Wait so can you explain the waterproofness rating system, cause I thought it was how much water could be "stacked" on top of the fabric before it would go through. But you said it has to do with the size of the water drop? Wouldn't size be measured in like angstroms or something rather than mm if it was the size?
 
naw I am retarded. haha. just woke up....

you are right. waterproofing has to do with how much water can be stacked on top.

breathability has to do with how much water vapor can pass thru the membrane in an amount of time.
 
Haha, it's all good

I'm glad I figured this stuff out, cause gore-tex always seemed like a mystery to me.

I dunno if I have it in any of my jackets or pants right now, but if it's good stuff I'll try to get a jacket or something with gore-tex cause I hate being wet.
 
good analogy haha^ i think its funny they skirt around that issue, i dont know why they cant just use the mm system like everyone else
 
Ya man, speaking of standardized stuff, the ski industry needs to make a universal flex chart for boots if it's possible, and a way to measure rocker.
 
the waterproofness doesn't actually refer to amount of water that can be 'stacked' on the material; rather it tells you how much water the fabric can withstand within a 24 hour time period before letting moisture through. the best way to stay dry is to keep your outerwear clean and occasionally re-treat it with a dwr product. 10 000mm waterproofness should, theoretically keep you dry if you were to stand outside for one whole year in the PNW. just so you know. but ya, i like to go for 15k-20k for ski stuff. bottom line is i fall and beat up my ski outerwear, so it will need to get washed and treated. for my rain jacket/mountaineering stuff that i keep clean and want to stay totally waterproof all the time i go for goretex pro-shell. note that gore-tex is just a brand name. they have different 'models' and while they make nice stuff, there are other legit textile manufacturers out there. i also consider the ability of my outerwear to withstand abrasion and cuts from edges and stuff. a 45k pair of pants dont do much good when there are cuts and rips all over them. hope that helped and didn't make things more complicated for you.
 
Ya I also make sure the outerwear is durable, and fully seam sealed.

I'm probably making more of a big deal than needs to be made, as 10k is usually fine, although more is nicer on certain occasions. I don't really trash my stuff either, I just figure it's better to buy one expensive thing than buy a cheap thing and have it break then have to buy another.

I know gore-tex is a brand name too, but it's used in lots of other brands of products.
 
hyvent is not as good.

all the waterproof fabric you see works the same, some are just better than others
 
I have TNF Hyvent pants and they get absolutely soaked in slush, rain and really wet snow. They are about 4 years old though.
 
eVent is the most breathable waterproof fabric out there. Not as durable as Gore-Tex though.
 
So here is the deal as far I understand it pertaining to:

Waterproofing

Is measured in: millimeters of water, as a measure of hydrostatic pressure

If you have ever swam more than 10-15 feet below water, you can feel the pressure build up of water (caused by the difference between the pressure inside your body and that of the water outside). Well, jackets operate the same way, in which the lab test measures how much water pressure the jacket can withstand before water permeates the fabric. Added pressure is measured by the height of the column, but it doesn't necessarily mean there is a thin water column on top of the fabric exactly, since 45,000 mm would be 45 m, or about 140 feet! However, it is a calculation of pressure put on the jacket. This translates to how long water can sit on a fabric before it leaks through. So, the mm number is an approximate way of telling how well it will resist water permeation. It does have to do with the size of the pores in the fabric. For example, standard cotton has huge poors and hence why one's shirt get soaked easily and requires a long period of time to dry. However, as I will state below, eVent fabric has millions of very small pores that are too small for water droplets in liquid form to pass through. The reason it is so effect is because water vapor, or water in steam form, has significantly smaller molecule size and therefore can pass out from the jacket without letting the larger liquid water droplets in

Specific waterproofing numbers

Hyvent: I've mostly seen that Hyvent is between 20k and 25k mm in waterproofing. It breathes quite well and will be sufficient for just about any outdoor adventure.

eVent: is comparable to Gore-Tex in waterproofing, but is comprised of a greater pore/surface area ratio, thus giving it higher breathabiltity

Gore-Tex: I have never heard of single layer Gore-tex, though I am sure it exists in some design, but double layer Gore-tex is 28,000, as Iggy said earlier, and 3-layer is 45,000 mm.

Dermizax, etc: Companies like Spyder, Orage, and Helly use this material and I believe it is generally 20,000 mm, though again like Gore-tex, a three layer material has improved waterproofing.

Lastly there are companies like Burton, Foursquare, Oakley, etc, that don't name their fabrics used and use a generic, waterproof fabric that is either from a lesser well-known company or made in house (vertical manufacturing as opposed to horizontal, which is buying all processed part from outside sources).

I hope that is somewhat helpful.
 
thanks, and the helly site was saying most of their stuff this year is 15k. which is kina week.

good to know on TNF though seeing as how it is nice and cheap.
 
I ride on gear thats 15K, and I dont have too much of a problem in Washington. Some really heavy duty rain gear would be nice once and a while though.

Whats the deal with breathability ratings?
 
i ride gore tex xcr cloudveil rpk i've never had a single drop of water penetrate the jacket and it's never even gotten damp, the most unbelievable thing i've ever used, i'm pretty sure it's like 85k
 
To add to all this:

The fabric itself is important, but has a coating on it as well, most often called a Durable Water Repellent. This makes it difficult for water to even reach the pores (and soak into the fabric, which explains the shedding of water droplets), and operates like a bunch of small umbrellas. Through wear and tear and use, the umbrellas get worn off and pushed down, but heat (like in a dryer, for example) pops them back up, which explains why drying your gear lets it shed water better. When it gets worn off, it has to be reapplicated. This can be done with either sprays or wash in chemicals, but the wash in stuff screws up both sides of the fabric and makes it less breathable. I typically respray my outerwear a couple of times a season or after really rainy days, Nikwax makes a great product for it. After coating the outside of the jacket well, just throw it in the dryer and it will be affixed by the heat.
 
Another benefit of Goretex is that from memory they offer a lifetime waterproof guarantee, which is hard to find in another company like Oakley, Burton etc.
 
Yup, my mom had some that stopped being waterproof and they sent new gloves.

I've actually had good experiences with the waterproofness of some Oakley stuff, I have a rare coat from Oakley that is 20k/20k and it's just as waterproof as my DNA 20k/20k pants. Other Oakley stuff....not so much, they seem to be less waterproof every year kind of a bummer, and they get more expensive too.

That new Saga stuff looks ill though.
 
old oakley stuff was bomber. I have a pair of gore-tex pants from them and they lasted 3 seasons with lots of wet pow in WA before I was looking for a new pair (replaces with some sessions).

I still use them on drier days.

The new oakley stuff is garbage.
 
It is really sad, I always liked Oakley.

How is TNF stuff, I was always under the impression that once it got all mainstream it wasn't as good unless you got the top end stuff that is suuuper expensive. So is it pretty legit?

TNF, Marmot, Patagonia and Mtn. Hardware seem like they make really great stuff but it is really expensive and well, it doesn't look that cool, not that looking cool means too much if you buy super tech gear.
 
It is like with most companies. A lot of it is shit unless you get to the higher end stuff.

no different for ski companies.

I personally think most of the ski companies produce pretty shitty stuff....I cannot image paying 250-350 for a jacket that "looks cool" but is like 6k....
 
Yeah I cant say shit here.

Old Oakley was so good. I still have my 2.0 Lab pants, they're fabric but still pretty good on those cold-as-shit 2 degree nights.
 
Hahaha word, I always see those shitty coats at Zumiez and stuff that are sooo bad but so expensive. It's like companies always produce mass amounts of their really shitty gear to ship off to all those chain stores. And then you go to a real shop and never even see those styles cause they are so shitty. I guess a lot of kids don't bother to look at ratings.

So Sessions is pretty legit though cause I was thinking about buying some next time I need some new gear.
 
well, i skied baker all season in 10k/10k last season. the helly hansen survival suit. and i did not get wet once, i was fairly impressed by that, but not by the materials durability
 
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