BarockOvomit
Member
why did it have to be tanner?
Tanner and Wiley Injured-Official Release
- Thread starter mtski11
- Start date
t_rob
Active member
Wrong sir. The only physically possible way to built a jump where you always take off and land in the "right" place no matter how fast the rider is launched has a vertical takeoff causing a landing in the same spot with no pop from the rider. It is physically impossible to build a jump can't be overshot on skis. I've heard the argument a million times that a good jump shouldn't be able to be overshot or undershot and somehow always able to be hit in the sweet spot. If anyone feels this way, he or she either failed or didn't take physics and believe its laws that have never been broken before can be broken when skiing.
I wish the best for tanner and hope he gets better as fast as possible without any complications.
I wish the best for tanner and hope he gets better as fast as possible without any complications.
Mr.Huck
Active member
T-Rob, I got loads of respect you based on other posts of yours that I have read. Here I have to disagree with you. True, any jump can be overshot, but some jumps are unsafe because the margin for error is too small. If you build a 75 foot table with a lip that goes close to vert, no matter how fast a skier is going, they are never going to clear the knuckle. That's pretty obvious, but the unsafe setups that I usually see, are when the takeoff is too shallow and the landing hill is too steep and short. On jumps like that, it is tough for the best skiers to nail the landing because you need enough speed to clear the knuckle, but just a hair more takes you to the flats. That's the type of jump that was built at SP.
I have built thousands of jumps and I have the scars from double hernia surgery to prove it. I really understand the physics. Feel free to look at the diagram on my profile called the Science behind Huck and Splash. What they had at SP was a jump that looks like about a 30 degree takeoff and a short landing hill which was probably closer to 40 to 45 degrees. Break out a drawing compass, set the point so that the rainbow arc will go up from the top of the jump at the same angle as the steepest part of the lip. Then rotate the compass to the landing hill. You will see that basically the skier would need to have a parachute to be able to slow forward momentum enough to land in the sweet spot of the landing hill.
A lot of this stuff came out during the Snoqualmie lawsuit. Ski areas had to take are harder look at their methods and the science behind jump building. Bottom line is that the guys who built the jump for TGR screwed up, not once but twice. It was unsafe when Wiley went deep and they made it more unsafe by narrowing the gap and apparently shallowing the takeoff. I'm not pulling this out of my butt.
I have built thousands of jumps and I have the scars from double hernia surgery to prove it. I really understand the physics. Feel free to look at the diagram on my profile called the Science behind Huck and Splash. What they had at SP was a jump that looks like about a 30 degree takeoff and a short landing hill which was probably closer to 40 to 45 degrees. Break out a drawing compass, set the point so that the rainbow arc will go up from the top of the jump at the same angle as the steepest part of the lip. Then rotate the compass to the landing hill. You will see that basically the skier would need to have a parachute to be able to slow forward momentum enough to land in the sweet spot of the landing hill.
A lot of this stuff came out during the Snoqualmie lawsuit. Ski areas had to take are harder look at their methods and the science behind jump building. Bottom line is that the guys who built the jump for TGR screwed up, not once but twice. It was unsafe when Wiley went deep and they made it more unsafe by narrowing the gap and apparently shallowing the takeoff. I'm not pulling this out of my butt.
firstly, i have to agree with mr. huck in the sense that jumps cant always be unavoidable for the over hit. i too have shaped hundreds of jumps in many different circumstances. (air & style, gap session, bc kickers for candidekamera, etc...) however, there is more than just correct angles that go into play. the rider and the way he/she hits the jump can make an amazing amount of difference in the overshot question. much like mr. huck, i have the scars and lumps to prove it...
second, there is a much larger list of great shapers, and although jon is shaping, he is certainly not on the list of the top shapers. maybe the most vocal... he has learned from some of the best scando and n.a. shapers over the last years before he started joi. he is very paticular and that is important, but people still get hurt on his features, and he hasnt come up with anything new... now candide's shapers, that is entirely different!!! aside from the monster, big bertha (which was only there for the very extinguished riders), his features at the candide inv'tnal over the last few years are nothing more than incredible!!!
lastly... big vibes to willey and tanner!!!! good luck homeys... and the reason why tanner's seems more important is because it is a more major injury, AND it's tanner, one of the guys that has changed our sport... no disrespect for willey, but he has a million more things to get accomplished before he steps to that!! but my thoughts are for you boyz, get back on your boards soon bros!!!!
second, there is a much larger list of great shapers, and although jon is shaping, he is certainly not on the list of the top shapers. maybe the most vocal... he has learned from some of the best scando and n.a. shapers over the last years before he started joi. he is very paticular and that is important, but people still get hurt on his features, and he hasnt come up with anything new... now candide's shapers, that is entirely different!!! aside from the monster, big bertha (which was only there for the very extinguished riders), his features at the candide inv'tnal over the last few years are nothing more than incredible!!!
lastly... big vibes to willey and tanner!!!! good luck homeys... and the reason why tanner's seems more important is because it is a more major injury, AND it's tanner, one of the guys that has changed our sport... no disrespect for willey, but he has a million more things to get accomplished before he steps to that!! but my thoughts are for you boyz, get back on your boards soon bros!!!!
tride
Active member
LOL, had to jump on that typo, just because it was so appropriate.... after all, Bertha did almost "extinguish" Candide....
But you're right about Fabien and his crew, they do build some sick ass shit.
And just for the irony factor, you know who builds Jon's features? David Ny.. who is also one of the main builders for FIS snowboard events... (I just find that funny considering how many people on here will scream bloody murder at the mere mention of FIS, but of course they drool over the JOI features anytime a picture goes up).
But we digress.... much love to Tanner and Wiley, heal fast!
But you're right about Fabien and his crew, they do build some sick ass shit.
And just for the irony factor, you know who builds Jon's features? David Ny.. who is also one of the main builders for FIS snowboard events... (I just find that funny considering how many people on here will scream bloody murder at the mere mention of FIS, but of course they drool over the JOI features anytime a picture goes up).
But we digress.... much love to Tanner and Wiley, heal fast!
tride
Active member
You (or filmers) don't need to spend 500 bucks on a "digital laser angle measure", you can just use a simple incline level (which is basically a circular level with degrees marked on it) put it on a board and lay it on the take-off, landing etc. Might take a minute or so longer to get your angles than using a fancy laser, but it will only cost about 20 bucks, and it works just as well, in fact I trust a simple system like that much more than the newfangled digital bankbreakers....
Shit, I got off topic again... gotta remember this should be all about the good vibes to Tanner and Wiley...
Shit, I got off topic again... gotta remember this should be all about the good vibes to Tanner and Wiley...
word.. along with a 200' tape, I carry in my truck, a homemade device to check stuff when kids complain. I also do the converse when someone raves! I like to know, why is it good?
Its a torpedo level and kids plastic protractor taped to the 6" level.
stand well off to the side of the trail perpendicular to the jump, hold the level, level at arms reach while holding the protractor on the bottom of the level and sight the landing slopes and/or take offs. not nearly as accurate as an incline level on a long board. but it works to within +/- about 2 degrees.
for what its worth, I found that the park jumps that skiers like the most, are at 32-35 degrees with the landings at least twice the length of the tranny and lip. Complaints mostly happen when they are not matching, ie. 35 degree take off, 25 degree landing.
disclaimer: I am not a park builder! just an interested observer.
Its a torpedo level and kids plastic protractor taped to the 6" level.
stand well off to the side of the trail perpendicular to the jump, hold the level, level at arms reach while holding the protractor on the bottom of the level and sight the landing slopes and/or take offs. not nearly as accurate as an incline level on a long board. but it works to within +/- about 2 degrees.
for what its worth, I found that the park jumps that skiers like the most, are at 32-35 degrees with the landings at least twice the length of the tranny and lip. Complaints mostly happen when they are not matching, ie. 35 degree take off, 25 degree landing.
disclaimer: I am not a park builder! just an interested observer.
This guy knows what is up. !
Mr.Huck
Active member
Props to you. There are definetely some artisan builders out there who can eyeball something and know it's right. Unfortunately those guys are not the only ones building jumps for public use or for use by the pros. I haven't skied europe and I don't know who Jon learned from. Maybe there are guys in Europe that are better than Jon. I'm sure there are, but he has managed to build huge stuff, that Schiller and Co described as the most air they had ever had. All that and the only guy who got hurt was PK. That was serious, but he got hurt because he got cross rutted on the landing hill. He did not out jump it. Jon's stuff is huge, but also very safe. For that reason, his methods are pretty good to emulate.
As far as the laser disto goes, I am not suggesting that everyone needs to go out and buy one of these things before they hit a jump. I don't think they are necessary for coaches unless they are building big hits. When you start building features that are on the scale of what they built at Steven's Pass, you better have something like this. With that tool you could have figured out in seconds that it was dangerous. The one I have is a Leica Disto D3.
I'm going to post this on the Builder Forum or Cult that papa mentioned too. The reason I like the Leica so much is that, it is about the size and weight of a cell phone. It can instantly and accurately measure distances and slopes by pushing a button. That way you don't need to be lugging around a tape measure and an old school angle measure. I get pissy when I have to schlep a radio around. I think that every park crew should have at least one of these devices. $500 for a ski area is nothing, and if it helps crews build safer features, it's worth its weight in gold.
As far as the laser disto goes, I am not suggesting that everyone needs to go out and buy one of these things before they hit a jump. I don't think they are necessary for coaches unless they are building big hits. When you start building features that are on the scale of what they built at Steven's Pass, you better have something like this. With that tool you could have figured out in seconds that it was dangerous. The one I have is a Leica Disto D3.
I'm going to post this on the Builder Forum or Cult that papa mentioned too. The reason I like the Leica so much is that, it is about the size and weight of a cell phone. It can instantly and accurately measure distances and slopes by pushing a button. That way you don't need to be lugging around a tape measure and an old school angle measure. I get pissy when I have to schlep a radio around. I think that every park crew should have at least one of these devices. $500 for a ski area is nothing, and if it helps crews build safer features, it's worth its weight in gold.