Snowbowl, AZ Controversy

[Bart.Man]

I was just made aware of this issue and thought some of the kind folks at NS might have some opinions.

Apparently Snowbowl has just gained approval from the US Forest Service to expand their territory and they have proposed a plan to lengthen their season. This would involve clear cutting many acres of forest, much of which is considered sacred lands to several indigenous tribes. But wait, there's more! They want to use 100% reclaimed sewage water to make snow. I don't yet know how I feel about this. What does NS think?

Here's a link to the site for more info: http://protectthepeaks.org/about/

 

[Aenigma]

Lots of really bold claims and shaky evidence on that site. I want to agree with the cause, but the face that is presented is pretty tough to love.

 

[Aenigma]

It's also kind of funny that they criticize Snowbowl for hoping to use 100% recycled water, then simultaneously argue that Flagstaff is going to have water shortage issues by 2020, so Snowbowl shouldn't make snow.

 

[a_burger]

MANIFEST DESTINY!!!!!

I cant read the article right now, how much forest are they cutting? If native americans are still using it they may have a claim but if its just a couple people then I dont see why they couldnt cut some trails

that said wide clearcut trails are boring and suck dick

 

[danncphedran]

Very biast story

 

[Bart.Man]

Lots of really bold claims and shaky evidence on that site. I want to agree with the cause, but the face that is presented is pretty tough to love.

Very biast story

Oh, for sure it's biased. The slant and loaded language is very apparent in their writing. I almost put that disclaimer in the OP. Still interesting to look into, though. Just take this info with a grain of salt.

 

[@LANTASKI]

the peaks are sacred. Indigenous peoples have been oppressed enough.

 

[LynxNation]

I did a project on issues like this for college awhile back.

They made a documentary and it's on youtube called "the snowbowl effect" you should check it out if you want to get all educational.

 

[ShredAZ]

This has been an age old debate that everyone in AZ is pretty sick of.

The San Francisco peaks are supposedly "sacred" to the Native Americans. The only qualm they have had against using reclaimed water are the contaminants being spread on their "sacred land." Here are some things you should know:

- Snowbowl is using A+ reclaimed water -- Flagstaff goes the extra mile to fully purge this water of any harmful contaminants making it safe to drink. This is the water being used to blow snow.

- The issue has gone to court numerous times throughout the years. The Federal Court has approved Snowbowl's practices without fault for oppression on Religious practices.

- Snow blowing is happening on less than 1% of the mountain.

- Sunrise, another popular place to ski in Arizona, is on sacred land and also blows their own snow. Only difference between Snowbowl and Sunrise, is Sunrise is owned by Natives... I suspect it has something to do with the tribe losing a % of their business now that they don't own the only resort that blows snow in AZ.

I don't see any fault with it.

In my personal opinion, some the tribe has handled this issue rather poorly: i.e. chaining themselves to work equipment, protesting every weekend on the corner of the entrance to Snowbowl, slandering the private owners of Snowbowl -- And this was all after they lost in court.

While that is their right to do that, I think the majority of us are pretty done with their isht.

Manifest destiny. Sorry Sunrise isn't the only resort that can blow snow now.

 

[JGWI]

First off, Unless you have a degree in Microbiology or Organic Chemistry or have some hard evidence on the effects a similar situation had on the environment, your opinion has little credibility. As for the deforestation I am rather mixed. They do not privately own the land but rather hold a special use permit issued by the US Forest Service. I appreciate the beauty of old growths, but I'm not some forest nut that is against cutting trees down. There are advantages to slashing woods. And opposed to popular belief, it is in many cases beneficial for the wildlife in the area.

 

[SkiBum.]

You have no idea what you are talking about, just FYI.

 

[danncphedran]

Oh, for sure it's biased. The slant and loaded language is very apparent in their writing. I almost put that disclaimer in the OP. Still interesting to look into, though. Just take this info with a grain of salt.

yea

 

[Bart.Man]

This has been an age old debate that everyone in AZ is pretty sick of.

The San Francisco peaks are supposedly "sacred" to the Native Americans. The only qualm they have had against using reclaimed water are the contaminants being spread on their "sacred land." Here are some things you should know:
- Snowbowl is using A+ reclaimed water -- Flagstaff goes the extra mile to fully purge this water of any harmful contaminants making it safe to drink. This is the water being used to blow snow.
- The issue has gone to court numerous times throughout the years. The Federal Court has approved Snowbowl's practices without fault for oppression on Religious practices.
- Snow blowing is happening on less than 1% of the mountain.
- Sunrise, another popular place to ski in Arizona, is on sacred land and also blows their own snow. Only difference between Snowbowl and Sunrise, is Sunrise is owned by Natives... I suspect it has something to do with the tribe losing a % of their business now that they don't own the only resort that blows snow in AZ.

I don't see any fault with it.
In my personal opinion, some the tribe has handled this issue rather poorly: i.e. chaining themselves to work equipment, protesting every weekend on the corner of the entrance to Snowbowl, slandering the private owners of Snowbowl -- And this was all after they lost in court.
While that is their right to do that, I think the majority of us are pretty done with their isht.

Manifest destiny. Sorry Sunrise isn't the only resort that can blow snow now.

That's good to know. I was hoping a local would weigh in.

You have no idea what you are talking about, just FYI.

When did I ever claim to know what I'm talking about? No need for you to be an arrogant prick.

 

[ShredAZ]

First off, Unless you have a degree in Microbiology or Organic Chemistry or have some hard evidence on the effects a similar situation had on the environment, your opinion has little credibility.

That's terribly inaccurate friend!

It doesn't take a degree in microbiology to formulate an educated opinion.

This debate is literally years old. I, along with plenty of other locals who have called Snowbowl their home mountain, have done plenty of research on the issue. We've had years of this debate forced on the AZ ski culture.

I'm a firm believer that politics and skiing shouldn't mix. And unfortunately, in the small town of Flagstaff, AZ, it does.

 

[a_burger]

First off, Unless you have a degree in Microbiology or Organic Chemistry or have some hard evidence on the effects a similar situation had on the environment, your opinion has little credibility. As for the deforestation I am rather mixed. They do not privately own the land but rather hold a special use permit issued by the US Forest Service. I appreciate the beauty of old growths, but I'm not some forest nut that is against cutting trees down. There are advantages to slashing woods. And opposed to popular belief, it is in many cases beneficial for the wildlife in the area.

this, old growth forests are overrated. they generally arent as healthy as young forests and generally ont have a lot of variation. They are definitley cool and should be preserved but not worshipped. my local hill had people protesting when they wanted to expand near old growth, not even in it. they also made them get rid of the halfpipe.

 

[PeppermillReno]

FUCK THIS PROPOSAL. SKIING IS AWESOME AND THE INDUSTRY ISN'T EXPANDING ENOUGH I WANT MORE TERRIAN AND MORE LIFTS ANYWHERE THERE ARE HILLS AND COLD WEATHER! YOU EVER HEAR THE SWISS COMPLAINING ABOUT SKIIERS AND SKI LIFTS SCREWING UP THEIR MOUNTAINS AND NATURE/ECOSYSTEMS????

No but really the industry needs to grow and expand and this means more trails and mountains. Small town hills really no longer exist outside the midwest and have gone the way of one screen movie theaters with the way the industry is moving you have to let hills upgrade and keep up with their competition.

Arizonas neighboring states all have elite skiing California, NV, NM, and UT have most the best inbounds terrain in the continental USA.

Didn't spend too long in AZ but a lot of the people who live there ski most are from somewhere cold. Especially the wealthy people. Great idea giving your wealthiest residents a reason to move somewhere else because day trips to Flagstaff aren't worth it since they are getting dicked on the snowmaking.

Lady I sat next to at a U of Arizona hoops game in Tucson couple years ago (she had bomb season tickets I snuck down) actually told me her husband had a season pass to Sugar Bowl in Tahoe and was in Tahoe thats why he wasn't at the game with her and that she was going skiing the next day but could only daytrip to Flagstaff. Thats what I'd be like if I lived there going off to Tahoe when I didn't feel like golfing.

And after freezing my BALLS OFF on the mountain today in New Hampshire fuck me it was cold I will tell you for sure that if I had the same amount of work and money in Arizona this winter that I did 2 years ago I'd 100% spend 10 or so weeks in Arizona and I'd absolutely rather be hitting up Flagstaff and not freezing than enjoying my day trips up to NH/ME. Im still fucking cold.

Will Snowbowl be open Dec 8-17th any locals know?

 

[LynxNation]

I don't see any fault with it.

In my personal opinion, some the tribe has handled this issue rather poorly: i.e. chaining themselves to work equipment, protesting every weekend on the corner of the entrance to Snowbowl, slandering the private owners of Snowbowl -- And this was all after they lost in court.

While that is their right to do that, I think the majority of us are pretty done with their isht.

Manifest destiny. Sorry Sunrise isn't the only resort that can blow snow now.[/QUOTE]

I can't believe you just tried to use manifest destiny as a reason to take something. You realize how completely messed up that is, or are you unaware of what manifest destiny was? Do some more research on why the tribes are trying to prevent the disturbance of their sacred lands. This isn't the 17th century anymore, Manifest Destiny is not a valid excuse to take something from anyone.

 

[danncphedran]

That's terribly inaccurate friend!

It doesn't take a degree in microbiology to formulate an educated opinion.

This debate is literally years old. I, along with plenty of other locals who have called Snowbowl their home mountain, have done plenty of research on the issue. We've had years of this debate forced on the AZ ski culture.

I'm a firm believer that politics and skiing shouldn't mix. And unfortunately, in the small town of Flagstaff, AZ, it does.

I agree

 

[theabortionator]

Might have to send my top secret undercover reporter back in to get the scoop.

All kinds of mountains trying to destroy the world through snowmaking.

This happened near me
https://www.newschoolers.com/membernewsread/The-Hidden-Danger-Coming

Disgusts me that I skied there as a kid and might have been subjected to some of the terribly harmful chemicals.

Arizona needs to stand up and fight the power!

 

[ShredAZ]

Manifest destiny. Sorry Sunrise isn't the only resort that can blow snow now.

I can't believe you just tried to use manifest destiny as a reason to take something. You realize how completely messed up that is, or are you unaware of what manifest destiny was? Do some more research on why the tribes are trying to prevent the disturbance of their sacred lands. This isn't the 17th century anymore, Manifest Destiny is not a valid excuse to take something from anyone.

Does no one joke in the kitchen now-a-days?

 

[Bart.Man]

Does no one joke in the kitchen now-a-days?

Na, I actually agree with her post. I almost made a comment on it, but decided not to kick open that can of worms. I guess he was probably joking, but it's pretty ignorant/distasteful.

But that's not what we're here to discuss!

 

[ShredAZ]

Na, I actually agree with her post. I almost made a comment on it, but decided not to kick open that can of worms. I guess he was probably joking, but it's pretty ignorant/distasteful.

But that's not what we're here to discuss!

AZ gub is pretty generous with the natives. They basically operate their own country within our state.

It's a bitter joke, but tasteful if you understand the privileges they get here.

 

[caucasian_chad]

I don't know anything about the sacred land stuff, but the treated sewage snow shouldn't be a cause for any concern. The Clean Water Act places pretty strict regulations on treated sewage. It isn't intended for drinking but if you get a little bit in your mouth it won't hurt you.

 

[Lutsenwreck]

So I've lived for months at time on Black Mesa which is on the Navajo/ Dineh Rez sinve '99 supporting tradidional families that have faced removal from their ancestral lands. Many traditional (read non-christian) people pray daily to Diichili Dzil and make pilgramiges to the peak for various rites and ceremonies. The descision on how to respect that mountain belongs to First Nations and allied peoples who understand that no one can dictate what is sacred to another people and as much as I or any one loves skiing, remember ITS JUST SKIING!!!

BTW politics as in voting and bullshit elections are one thing but skiing doesn't exist in a vaccuum