Should the US Military Torture to Gain Information

TheQuailman

Active member
What do you guys think about the whole issue of torture? I mean on one hand, it could save countless American lives by just torturing one criminal for information. But on the other hand, its morally wrong and if we do it, then other countries (including our enemies) have free range to do it (in some instances to Americans).
 
no. period. regardless of what info we could get, we should not.

on a side note, according to the government we CAN torture, but the guy who could UNDERSTAND WHAT THE FUCK THE PEOPLE WERE TORTURING ARE SAYING, is kicked out of the army. why? because hes gay. how ass backwards is that?
 
Im ok with it but I dont think it gives us any information directly (info while someone is being water boarded) however I think that individuals might give more info during interagation in fear of being waterboarded later on.
 
so if a member of the group that's holding some of your family members hostage in some unknown location is caught, you'd rather have him sent to jail instead of torturing him in the hopes of maybe gathering some information on where your family members are being held hostage and tortured ?
 
yep

it's kinda like how the united states wont pay a ransom to a terrorist holding your family hostage.
 
Jesus_facepalm.jpg

 
No. As Ben Franklin says it:

"They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety."

 
Torture is one of the most evil and devious things on earth. It deprives a man of his vary humanity and it sickens me to think that I am associated (not of my own free will but sadly on the fact that I was born here) with a country that tortures not only "enemy combatants" but its own citizens . Waterboarding is the only for of torture used in the US on a daily basis innocent Americans are subjected to electroshock torture by means of tasers. Tasers are used with little discretion by police and have the ability not only to maim and torture but to kill as well. They are used prior to arrests in many cases by police to make people "compliant". Thats right the police torture people EVERY DAY who have not yet been convicted of a crime just to CONTROL them.

TASERS ARE TORTURE

and the pigs that use them make me sick
 
tasers=torture.... what are you? 12? jesus christ the only time someone really can die from a taser is if they have a heart condition or a pacemaker... and in most cases, the taser is used to threaten first to get them to stop, and if the person keeps coming at me with a knife im not going to pause to ask for their medical history... fuck that.
 
In most cases tasers are not used because the cops are being threatened, they are used because the cops are having a difficult time controlling the person they are trying to arrest. There are numerous cases where the overuse of tasers by the police has killed perfectly healthy people. Was it torture when we shocked prisoners at Abu-Graihb, yes it was, and it is torture every time a cop shocks an innocent American.

and I'm 20 not 12, and I avoid the cops at all costs because I know they can legally taser me with no explination which scares the shit out of me.
 
its not like the police tazer everybody in site. they are there to protect the citizens from the people they have arrested. just because you got pulled over because you drove too fast doesnt mean they are going to tazer you without probable cause
 
They don't need probable cause to taser you and yes tasers have been used many times in completely routine traffic stops where the driver posed literally no threat to the officer, like pregnant women etc. Tasers are not used to protect they are used to control, they are used to force you to comply with what the officer is telling you to do whether it is unconstitutional or not.
 
no shit. maybe you just need to stop walking around like a skeetchy looking fuck so they wont tazer you anymore. have you ever been hit by a tazer? i have, fried of mine his mom has one and she paid me, him, and another friend 50 bucks to get hit by it. now, it wasnt a cop one it was one of those hand held stun gun things but it wasnt even as painful as grabbing a electric cow fence (which i have done, shut up, i was a stupid child)
 
Nah man you got me wrong, I don't walk around sketchy I just drive around in my carolla low key acting like an average person. I do my best to stay away from the cops and to have them stay away from me. I have not been tasered before and do not know how much it does or does not hurt. My problem with it is that cops have the legal right to use that amount of force (which can be debilitanting and even leathal) against American citizens who have commited no crime, much less been convicted of one. I have been shocked before mildy (by a cow fence actually) and it was very unpleasent, so I can't imagine what it would feel like to have multiple wire shot into you and then be shocked with upwards of 50,000 volts.
 
vietnam.jpg


dont tell me what i want, you're next is how the koreans and south vietnamese did it... now, im not saying we do that but unless someone has some sort of threat of pain, or just a threat of SOME kind people wont talk.

and to the dude saying tasers are torture... you sir, are an idiot. idk where you are from but tasers are only used if someone isnt complying to stay in their car, to keep their hands on the hood, or if they are physically trying to assault the officer....
 


Torture includes such practices as searing with hot irons, burning

at the stake, electric shock treatment to the genitals, cutting out

parts of the body, e.g. tongue, entrails or genitals, severe beatings,

suspending by the legs with arms tied behind back, applying

thumbscrews, inserting a needle under the fingernails, drilling through

an unanesthetized tooth, making a person crouch for hours in the

‘Z’ position, waterboarding (submersion in water or dousing

to produce the sensation of drowning), and denying food,

water or sleep for days or weeks on

end.[3]

All of these practices presuppose that the torturer has control over

the victim's body, e.g. the victim is strapped to a chair.

Most of these practices, but not all of them, involve the infliction

of extreme physical pain. For example, sleep deprivation does not

necessarily involve the infliction of extreme physical pain.

However, all of these practices involve the infliction of extreme

physical suffering, e.g. exhaustion in the case of sleep

deprivation. Indeed, all of them involve the intentional

infliction of extreme physical suffering on some

non-consenting and defenceless person. If A

accidentally sears B with hot irons A has

not tortured B; intention is a necessary condition for

torture. Further, if A intentionally sears B with

hot irons and B consented to this action, then B has

not been tortured. Indeed, even if B did not consent, but

B could have physically prevented A from searing him

then B has not been tortured. That is, in order for it to be

an instance of torture, B has to be

defenceless.[4]

Is the intentional infliction of extreme mental suffering on

a non-consenting, defenceless person necessarily torture? Michael

Davis thinks not (2005: 163). Assume that B's friend, A,

is being tortured, e.g. A is undergoing electric shock

treatment, but that B himself is untouched — albeit

B is imprisoned in the room adjoining the torture

chamber. (Alternatively, assume that B is in a hotel room in

another country and live sounds and images of the torture are

intentionally transmitted to him in his room by the torturer in such a

way that he cannot avoid seeing and hearing them other than by leaving

the room after having already seen and heard them.) However,

A is being tortured for the purpose of causing B to

disclose certain information to the torturer. B is certainly

undergoing extreme mental suffering. Nevertheless, B is

surely not himself being tortured. To see this, reflect on the

following revised version of the scenario. Assume that A is

not in fact being tortured; rather the ‘torturer’ is only

pretending to torture A. However, B believes that

A is being tortured; so B's mental suffering is as

in the original scenario. In this revised version of the scenario the

‘torturer’ is not torturing A. In that case

surely he is not torturing B

either.[5]

On the other hand, it might be argued that some instances

of the intentional infliction of extreme mental suffering on

non-consenting, defenceless persons are cases of torture, albeit some

instances (such as the above one) are not. Consider, for example, a

mock execution or a situation in which a victim with an extreme rat

phobia lies naked on the ground with his arms and legs tied to stakes

while dozens of rats are placed all over his body and face. The

difference between the mock execution and the phobia scenario on the

one hand, and the above case of the person being made to believe that

his friend is being tortured on the other hand, is that in the latter

case the mental suffering is at one remove; it is suffering caused by

someone else's (believed) suffering. However, such suffering at

one remove is in general less palpable, and more able to be resisted

and subjected to rational control; after all, it is not my

body that is being electrocuted, my life that is being

threatened, or my uncontrollable extreme fear of rats that is

being experienced. An exception to this general rule might be cases

involving the torture of persons with whom the sufferer at one remove

has an extremely close relationship and a very strong felt duty of

care, e.g. a child and its parent. At any rate, if as appears to be the

case, there are some cases of mental torture then the above definition

will need to be extended, albeit in a manner that does not admit

all cases of the infliction of extreme mental suffering as

being instances of torture.

In various national and international laws, e.g. Convention against

Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman and Degrading Treatment or Punishment

(United Nations 1984 — see Other Internet Resources), a

distinction is made between torture and inhumane treatment, albeit

torture is a species of inhumane treatment. Such a distinction needs

to be made. For one thing, some treatment, e.g. flogging, might be

inhumane without being sufficiently extreme to count as torture. For

another thing, some inhumane treatment does not involve physical

suffering to any great extent, and is therefore not torture, properly

speaking (albeit, the treatment in question may be as morally bad as,

or even morally worse than, torture). Some forms of the infliction of

mental suffering are a case in point, as are some forms of morally

degrading treatment, e.g. causing a prisoner to pretend to have sex

with an animal.

So torture is the intentional infliction of extreme physical

suffering on some non-consenting, defenceless person. Is this an

adequate definition of torture? Perhaps not.

It is logically possible that torture could be undertaken

simply because the torturer enjoys making other sentient beings endure

extreme physical suffering, i.e., quite independently of whether or not

the victim suffers a loss of autonomy. Consider children who enjoy

tearing the wings off flies. Nevertheless, in the case of the torture

of human beings it is in practice impossible to inflict

extreme physical suffering of the kind endured by the victims of

torture without at the same time intentionally curtailing the

victim's exercise of his autonomy during the torturing process.

At the very least the torturer is intentionally exercising control over

the victim's body and his attendant physical sensations, e.g.

extreme pain. Indeed, in an important sense the victim's body and

attendant physical sensations cease to be his own instrument, but

rather have become the instrument of the torturer. Moreover, by virtue

of his control over the victim's body and physical sensations,

the torturer is able to heavily influence other aspects of the

victim's mental life, including his stream of consciousness;

after all, the victim can now think of little else but his extreme

suffering and the torturer. In short, torturers who torture human

beings do so with the (realised) intention of substantially

curtailing the autonomy of their victims.

So torture is: (a) the intentional infliction of extreme physical

suffering on some non-consenting, defenceless person, and; (b) the

intentional, substantial curtailment of the exercise of the

person's autonomy (achieved by means of (a)). Is this now an

adequate definition of torture? Perhaps not.

Here we need to consider the purpose or point of torture.

The above-mentioned U.N. Convention identifies four reasons for

torture, namely: (1) to obtain a confession; (2) to obtain information;

(3) to punish; (4) to coerce the sufferer or others to act in certain

ways. Certainly, these are all possible purposes of

torture.[6]

It seems that in general torture is undertaken for the

purpose of breaking the victim's

will.[7]

If true, this distinguishes

torture for the sake of breaking the victim's will from the other

four purposes mentioned above. For with respect to each one of these

four purposes, it is not the case that in general torture is

undertaken for that purpose, e.g. in most contemporary societies

torture is not generally undertaken for the purpose of punishing the

victim.

One consideration in favour of the proposition that breaking the

victim's will is a purpose central to the practice of torture is

that achieving the purpose of breaking the victim's will is very

often a necessary condition for the achievement of the other four

identified purposes. In the case of interrogatory torture of an enemy

spy, for example, in order to obtain the desired information the

torturer must first break the will of the victim. And when torture

— as opposed to, for example, flogging as a form of corporal

punishment — is used as a form of punishment it typically has as

a proximate, and in part constitutive, purpose to break the

victim's will. Hence torture as punishment does not consist

— as do other forms of punishment — of a determinate set of

specific, pre-determined and publicly known acts administered over a

definite and limited time period.

A second consideration is as follows. We have seen that torture

involves substantially curtailing the victim's autonomy. However,

to substantially curtail someone's autonomy is not necessarily to

break their will. Consider the torture victim who holds out and refuses

to confess or provide the information sought by the torturer.

Nevertheless, a proximate logical endpoint of the process of curtailing

the exercise of a person's autonomy is the breaking of their

will, at least for a time and in relation to certain matters.

These two considerations taken together render it plausible that in

general torture has as a purpose to break the victim's will.

Accordingly, we arrive at the following definition. Torture is: (a)

the intentional infliction of extreme physical suffering on some

non-consenting, defenceless person; (b) the intentional, substantial

curtailment of the exercise of the person's autonomy (achieved by

means of (a)); (c) in general, undertaken for the purpose of

breaking the victim's will.

Note that breaking a person's will is short of entirely

destroying or subsuming their autonomy. Sussman implausibly holds the

latter to be definitive of torture: “The victim of torture finds

within herself a surrogate of the torturer, a surrogate who does not

merely advance a particular demand for information, denunciation or

confession. Rather, the victim's whole perspective is given over

to that surrogate, to the extent that the only thing that matters to

her is pleasing this other person who appears infinitely distant,

important, inscrutable, powerful and free. The will of the torturer is

thus cast as something like the source of all value in his

victim's world” (Sussman 2005: 26). Such self-abnegation

might be the purpose of some forms of torture, as indeed it is of some

forms of slavery and brainwashing, but it is certainly not definitive

of torture.

Consider victims of torture who are able to resist so that their

wills are not broken. An example from the history of Australian

policing is that of the notorious criminal and hard-man, James Finch:

“He [Finch] was handcuffed to a chair and we knocked the shit out

of him. Siddy Atkinson was pretty fit then and gave him a terrible

hiding….no matter what we did to Finch, the bastard

wouldn't talk” (Stannard 1988: 40). Again, consider the

famous case of Steve Biko who it seems was prepared to die rather than

allow his torturers to break his will (Arnold 1984:

281-2).[8]

Here breaking a person's will can be understood in a

minimalist or a maximalist sense. This is not to say that the

boundaries between these two senses can be sharply drawn.

Understood in its minimal sense, breaking a person's will is

causing that person to abandon autonomous decision-making in relation

to some narrowly circumscribed area of life and for a limited

period.[9]

Consider, for

example, a thief deciding to disclose or not disclose to the police

torturing him where he has hidden the goods he has stolen (a torturing

practice frequently used by police in

India).[10]

Suppose further that he knows

that he can only be legally held in custody for a twenty-four hour

period, and that the police are not able to infringe this particular

law. By torturing the thief the police might break his will and,

against his will, cause him to disclose the whereabouts of the stolen

goods.

Understood in its maximal sense, breaking a person's will involves

reaching the endpoint of the kind of process Sussman describes above,

i.e., the point at which the victim's will is subsumed by the will of

the torturer. Winston Smith in George Orwell's 1984 is, as

Sussman notes, an instance of the latter extreme endpoint of some

processes of torture. Smith ends up willingly betraying what is

dearest and most important to him, i.e., his loved one Julia.

Moreover, there are numerous examples of long term damage to

individual autonomy and identity caused by torture, to some extent

irrespective of whether the victim's will was broken. For example,

some victims of prolonged torture in prisons in authoritarian states

are so psychologically damaged that even when released they are unable

to function as normal adult persons, i.e. as rational choosers

pursuing their projects in a variety of standard interpersonal

contexts such as work and family.

Given the above definition of torture, we can distinguish torture

from the following practices.

Firstly, we need to distinguish torture from coercion. In the case

of coercion, people are coerced into doing what they don't want

to do. This is consistent with their retaining control over their

actions and making a rational decision to, say, hand over their wallet

when told to do so by a knife-wielding robber. So coercion does not

necessarily involve torture. Does torture necessarily involve coercion?

No doubt the threat of torture, and torture in its preliminary stages,

simply functions as a form of coercion in this sense. However, torture

proper has as its starting point the failure of coercion, or that

coercion is not even going to be attempted. As we have seen, torture

proper targets autonomy itself, and seeks to overwhelm the capacity of

the victims to exercise rational control over their decisions —

at least in relation to certain matters for a limited period of time

— by literally terrorising them into submission. Hence there is a

close affinity between terrorism and torture. Indeed, arguably torture

is a terrorist tactic. However, it is one that can be used by groups

other than terrorists, e.g. it can be used against enemy combatants by

armies fighting conventional wars and deploying conventional military

strategies. In relation to the claim that torture is not coercion, it

might be responded that at least some forms or instances of torture

involve coercion, namely those in which the torturer is seeking

something from the victim, e.g. information, and in which some degree

of rational control to comply or not with the torturer's wishes

is retained by the victim. This response is plausible. However, even if

the response is accepted, there will remain instances of torture in

which these above-mentioned conditions do not obtain; presumably, these

will not be instances of coercion.

Secondly, torture needs to be distinguished from excruciatingly

painful medical procedures. Consider the case of a rock-climber who

amputates a fellow climber's arm, which got caught in a crevice in

an isolated and inhospitable mountain area. These kinds of case differ

from torture in a number of respects. For example, such medical

procedures are consensual and not undertaken to break some persons'

will, but rather to promote their physical wellbeing or even to save

their life.

Thirdly, there is corporal punishment. Corporal punishment is, or

ought to be, administered only to persons who have committed some legal

and/or moral offence for the purpose of punishing them. By contrast,

torture is not — as is corporal punishment — limited by

normative definition to the guilty; and in general torture, but not

corporal punishment, has as its purpose the breaking of a

person's will. Moreover, unlike torture, corporal punishment will

normally consist of a determinate set of specific, pre-determined and

publicly known acts administered during a definite and limited time

period, e.g. ten lashes of the cat-o-nine-tails for theft.

Fourthly, there are ordeals involving the infliction of severe pain.

Consider Gordon Liddy who reportedly held his hand over a burning

candle till his flesh burnt in order to test his will. Ordeals have as

their primary purpose to test a person's will, but are not

undertaken to break a person's will. Moreover, ordeals — as

the Liddy example illustrates — can be voluntary, unlike

torture.

sorry about the wall of text but THAT is torture.... a taser is a tool for compliance because cops pulling a gun is effective but is almost always lethal with the training they get. cops are taught to double tap in the middle of the chest.... almost always 100% lethal.

and in the definition it says electric shock treatment... what they mean by that is like what happens to Mel Gibson in Lethal Weapon 1 or what happens to Chuck Norris in Missing In Action 3.

 
heres the funny part, the posts are going to get longer and longer, and no one is gonna read it but the one person that disagrees with the post
 
Let's role play for a second. So, there's this guy right? And he is the leader of a terrorist organization. We find out that they are sending nukes in a day, but this guy has information to stop it. Should we just let it happen or force it out of him? You can't say never because you never know the circumstances.
 
Yes exactly electric shock treament. There are many cases where the police have used tasers multiple times for an extended period of time torturing the victim into complying. Tasers have been used to such excess in cases that they have actually killed, they are designed to be non leathal but when they are over applied they can be leathal. The only way that tasers are over applied is through repeated and prolonged use. The repeated and prolong use of elctroshock would be a treatment ie. torture. And how does tasing a pregnant woman to get her to sign a piece of paper more morally sound than waterboarding a terrorist to give up information, in both cases someone is using force to coerce someone else to do something they do not wish to do.
 
you better believe it...and Nancy Pelosi is the biggest scumbag liar in Washington, It's scary to know that she presides over congress.
 
we need jack bauer?

to the guy whos bitching and moaning about tasers what would you rather the cops do? shoot you with a gun? get into a fist fight with you?

ive gotta say its gonna be interesting to see what happens with queen nancy...
 
haha oh god, that scene disgusted me soooo much. But Pelosi is a bitch and a liar, there are numerous documents that prove the Bush admin told her and the rest of congress about their interrogation techniques. After all, Congress did approve them. And Pelosi's statement about her fighting in Iraq at the time is laughable. First of all, she was not fighting in Iraq. Second of all, The iraq war hadn't even broken out at that point, so she is a fucking imbecile.
 
yes i can say never. even in that case. NO. you do not throw away basic human rights, regardless of the lives it will save.
 
a person who does not respect other people's basic human rights should not have his own human rights respected
 
did she know? probably, but we dont know yet

but it hasnt been proven yet, and if there are these documents proving it, why havent they been waved in her face? Cheny himself admitted the other night its possible she wasnt briefed on waterboarding.
 
someone define torture for me...

wouldnt being taken away from the mother land and locked in a cell torture?

can we play the theme song from the brady bunch while keeping their cell blindingly bright all the time?

ive gotta say the story of the catterpiller in the padded room was fucking awesome. hahaha
 
google lt dan choi. hes the latest. spoke FUCKING ARABIC so he could understand the people were fighting. but hes gay, so we cant have him in the military.
 
not quite. an eye for an eye would be to kill him if he killed someone. what i'm talking about is inflicting some pain to someone in order to prevent deaths. I can't believe that, for example, if someone thats part of the group of kidnappers who kidnapped your family was caught, you'd rather let him not suffer any physical pain, instead of preventing the death of your family
 
id rather america not throw away its principles and values. as someone posted previously, ben franklin said something along the lines of, "those that take away liberty, for a little security, deserve neither."
 
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