Revision is a marketing company
- Thread starter azmunster
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Jesse_
Active member
topic:azmunster said:
You have no idea what you're talking about... Just cause a company has outsourced the production of there skis doesn't mean its just a "marketing company". What is your definition of a ski company then? With that logic you could say Line or K2 are also "just marketing companies".
For "businesses" (not marketing companies
) exporting ski production to china could actually heavily benefit them. (Quoting S.J.W) "With lower production costs they can shift the production possibility frontier to greater produce more quantity at a lower price. Also with these lower production costs companies like line, K2 and revision can better invest in capital equipment also can better invest in ski research and development."Please educate yourself, and oh and go buy some J skis because you think just because a ski company "makes the skis themselves" aren't by your standards "just marketing"
a_burger
Active member
you can say the same for any number of companies which all don't own their own factories. Look up the brands that are built in the Never Summer or Elan factories, theres a fair amount, some which you wouldn't expect.
It's not like they are running off with the money either, they are giving it back through really good pre-sales, a confidence inspiring warranty, and some of the hottest media coming out right now.
If you want to spend $700 on a pair of skis go ahead, but how much more are you really getting?
It's not like they are running off with the money either, they are giving it back through really good pre-sales, a confidence inspiring warranty, and some of the hottest media coming out right now.
If you want to spend $700 on a pair of skis go ahead, but how much more are you really getting?
RousedWits
Member
13718277:Jesse_ said:\
For "businesses" (not marketing companies
Spoken like a true economist!
[img=]836701[/img]
Granted, I do wish they were making them where they are based out of... Outsourcing blows, and you can definitely tell a difference in quality. Chinese made things are typically cheap whereas American or European made are higher quality. I am sure it benefits Revision, and it probably benefits the majority of consumers. However for hardcore skiers who want the top quality skis, I think it is a bad deal....
but eh, you cant make everyone happy, life goes on
Hang Loose
-Ceyel
leprechaunsissy
Member
topic:azmunster said:
I don't even think it is. Moclips is a tiny town on the WA coast. Why would you open a ski company there? It's like opening a potato farm just past the Idaho border.
topic:azmunster said:
These are always an interesting thread, though the outcome is always the same. I am sure some indies hate of me/ON3P will only increase with this post, but alas...it is a cursed life.
Anyway, on the topic of outsourcing, if you are going to be critical of brands that outsource, your options are pretty limited. In that regard, I feel it is only fair to Revision to point out that most ski companies are marketing & design companies. Very few manufacturing companies exist and that is just the reality of the ski industry.
Hopefully Revision hops in to talk about their business and why they outsource. I believe they've discussed it on their website - basically stating the they felt the best skis they could get were from the overseas factory. Given the pricing they are working on offering skis, that is the reality of their business. We would go out of business selling skis at what they are able to sell for. That's business, and affordable skis have a place in skiing. Everyone wants to see the sport grow.
The reason you see brands who build their own skis push it so hard is that the capital, overhead, and labor costs between building your own product and outsourcing it is huge. You could start a ski company and outsource 250 pairs for 50k in N. America, let alone overseas. Ship them out of your garage for $400/pair with no overhead and make a decent margin. Boom. We have grinders in our factory that cost 50k on their own. Now go and outfit a 8000 sf ski factory. Then pay to support that factory. Then develop your own ski building process. Then teach it to new employees. Then pay those employees whose only job is to build the skis. Then find the time to deal with the rest of the business. You are looking at, minimum, 10x the start up cost as outsourcing. If I were to help set up another ski factory at this time, I wouldn't even consider doing it with less than 500k to spend and burn getting it to speed. I'd be a lot more comfortable with 1 million. That is why, if you are looking at any sort of in house volume built in N. America, say over 2,000 pairs per year, you are realistically looking at 5 ski factories building just their own skis in the entire USA - Mervin, Moment, Voile, DPS, and ON3P (maybe Praxis? I have no idea on their volume. Also, if I missed your factory, sorry!). There are a lot of small builders, but most are building a couple hundred pairs or less per year.
13718277:Jesse_ said:You have no idea what you're talking about... Just cause a company has outsourced the production of there skis doesn't mean its just a "marketing company". What is your definition of a ski company then? With that logic you could say Line or K2 are also "just marketing companies".
For "businesses" (not marketing companies
Please educate yourself, and oh and go buy some J skis because you think just because a ski company "makes the skis themselves" aren't by your standards "just marketing"
Jesse - you asked the OP to educate himself, so I figured you would be open to a bit of information yourself.
1) K2/Line have their own factory in China. That is pretty different than outsourcing to factory owned by another business. K2/Line also have a well established prototype facility in Seattle that would outmatch most indie ski "factories" in the US. So, while they build overseas, they don't fall into same outsourcing category as many other brands.
2) I mean this completely seriously. What capital equipment do you see indie brands outsourcing their production investing in? Do they have a factory where they can build and test skis using that equipment? Do they have any R&D space at all? Any brands that outsource are welcomed to post up - I love ski building and always find what others do interesting.
K2 & Line are on their own. They have millions sunk into capital equipment in Seattle and China. I am just seriously wondering what capital equipment you see indie brands that outsource investing in. R&D is pretty hard and pretty stunted when you are limited in your access to manufacturing equipment.
The companies really pushing ski development, ski finishing, and ski R&D can do so because we have half a million (or much more) in capital equipment sitting in a manufacturing space that is our own. I can't underscore how beneficial it is to be able to walk 20 feet from my office at 11:30pm on a Thursday night, being a complete dick, and say...
Hi Jesse!
[img=]836702[/img]
[img=]836703[/img]
[img=]836704[/img]
[img=]836705[/img]
[img=]836706[/img]
Here is the other thing I will say - this isn't to say these indies are not adding to skiing. Revision has brought a lot of killer media to the table this year and has their own take on rail damage with their damage replacement/warranty policy (HG too). Icelantic has Winter on the Rocks and their Golf deal...if that is your thing. Liberty puts "Born in CO" on their skis made in China...sorry got a bit off track. The point being, if you are looking for companies pushing ski tech, ski design, and ski construction, the list is largely centered around companies with the ability to design, manufacture, and test those skis in house. Almost every brand adds to the flavor of the industry, but when you are limited in the design aspects you can contribute to the industry, the focus of what you are going to bring will always be marketing-centric.
3) I am an old fuck now, so maybe I don't understand the point you are trying to make about Jskis, but he's in the same group as Revision (aka, most ski companies). He outsources skis to Utopie in QC, who also makes some RMU, HG, Stanston, Sims Snowboards (who I believe just moved to Never Summer), etc.
Anyway, that's a perspective from one of the few companies manufacturing a product we designed, in a factory we built, with a production process we developed, right here in the America. Fuck yeah.
**This post was edited on Sep 2nd 2016 at 4:18:23am
FishChowder
Member
That was probably one of the best posts I have read here.
I can't side enough with Scott on how difficult it is to create a legitimate ski building facility. Capital aside (which I think a bare bones facility is at the very least $300k), dialing the process and procedures is a fucking nightmare. It took Armada 15 years of operation before they finally invested in their own prototyping equipment, and even then it's taken me about 8 months to set up all the equipment and begin to dial in a process. Then you get in to sourcing materials, and aside from plastics, epoxy and glass (thank god for crown and composites one), the best suppliers of cores are in china and europe (unless you're willing to make your own like moment), and the only two edge suppliers in the world are in europe. Making skis domestically is fucking hard so my hat is off to all that do it.
Aside from that he made every single point that I had in my head.
The thing that cracks me up is people's hate towards Chinese production. Don't get me wrong, I am far more supportive of domestic production, but when comparing Chinese and European production it's apples to apples. The only real difference is the difficulties getting prepreg in China. Plus a bunch of the European factories are starting to branch out to eastern block countries to save some money on labor anyways.
Aside from that he made every single point that I had in my head.
The thing that cracks me up is people's hate towards Chinese production. Don't get me wrong, I am far more supportive of domestic production, but when comparing Chinese and European production it's apples to apples. The only real difference is the difficulties getting prepreg in China. Plus a bunch of the European factories are starting to branch out to eastern block countries to save some money on labor anyways.
hot.pocket
Active member
tl;dr for scott's novel...
13718317:iggyskier said:
Skibumsmith
Active member
13718385:loganimlach said:
Logan are you a manufacturing engineer? I'll graduate from Utah with a mechanical degree in 2018 and would love to one day be able to do what you do. There's nothing more satisfying than getting your hands dirty. I tip my hat to you for what you've done in the industry and how you've applied your skills with your passion.
link80
Active member
For educational purposes, here is pretty much how the industry is broken down:
1) Major Euro/China classics that own their own factories - Rossi, Atomic, Salomon, Elan, K2, etc
2) Companies that get their stuff made by major factories: Armada, 4FRNT, Black Crows, Black Diamond, etc
3) Companies that get their stuff made at OEM factories which names you probably have never heard of in China: Liberty, Surface, DPS (Hybrid Collection), Revision, G3
4) Companies that get their stuff made at OEM factories which names you probably have never heard of in Eastern Europe: Majesty, Faction (although they may have moved to an EU Classic for this season), White Dot
5) Companies that get their stuff made at Utopie: J Skis, HG Skis, Renoun Skis, RMU Skis (possibly partially China, they move around a lot and used to be at Never Summer)
6) Companies that get their stuff made at Never Summer Snowboards: Icelantic, High Society, Fatypus,
7) Companies that make their own skis in the USA that are not one of the "BIG" brands: ON3P, Folsom, Praxis, Moment, DPS (Pure3 line only), Voile, Lib Tech Skis
Now you need to consider how hands on these brands are in the manufacturing process. Some of these brands have had skis made by factories, received the product, cut the skis in half and its not even close to what they asked for. And although some of these brands get their stuff made at big factories they do have their own R&D department like Armada and 4frnt. 4frnt actually produces a handful of skis in the USA themselves which is cool.
There is more than one way to skin a cat. So just because one of these companies will send in the the sidecut dimensions and what they think they want the flex to be doesn't mean it will be created the same way on the back end. How the edge template is made or how the core is profiled, etc.... All these tweaks in production are going to have an effect on how the ski turns out. How many of these companies really have a choice in how their ski is produced? So when companies talk about how much testing, R&D, and testing they have done really consider which brands actually have the capability to do this and which ones are just marketing.
**This post was edited on Sep 2nd 2016 at 1:24:33pm
1) Major Euro/China classics that own their own factories - Rossi, Atomic, Salomon, Elan, K2, etc
2) Companies that get their stuff made by major factories: Armada, 4FRNT, Black Crows, Black Diamond, etc
3) Companies that get their stuff made at OEM factories which names you probably have never heard of in China: Liberty, Surface, DPS (Hybrid Collection), Revision, G3
4) Companies that get their stuff made at OEM factories which names you probably have never heard of in Eastern Europe: Majesty, Faction (although they may have moved to an EU Classic for this season), White Dot
5) Companies that get their stuff made at Utopie: J Skis, HG Skis, Renoun Skis, RMU Skis (possibly partially China, they move around a lot and used to be at Never Summer)
6) Companies that get their stuff made at Never Summer Snowboards: Icelantic, High Society, Fatypus,
7) Companies that make their own skis in the USA that are not one of the "BIG" brands: ON3P, Folsom, Praxis, Moment, DPS (Pure3 line only), Voile, Lib Tech Skis
Now you need to consider how hands on these brands are in the manufacturing process. Some of these brands have had skis made by factories, received the product, cut the skis in half and its not even close to what they asked for. And although some of these brands get their stuff made at big factories they do have their own R&D department like Armada and 4frnt. 4frnt actually produces a handful of skis in the USA themselves which is cool.
There is more than one way to skin a cat. So just because one of these companies will send in the the sidecut dimensions and what they think they want the flex to be doesn't mean it will be created the same way on the back end. How the edge template is made or how the core is profiled, etc.... All these tweaks in production are going to have an effect on how the ski turns out. How many of these companies really have a choice in how their ski is produced? So when companies talk about how much testing, R&D, and testing they have done really consider which brands actually have the capability to do this and which ones are just marketing.
**This post was edited on Sep 2nd 2016 at 1:24:33pm
13718430:Skibumsmith said:
nah i'm a civil engineer that got lost. come up to our office any time, I'd be happy to show you around my shop.
Jesse_
Active member
13718317:iggyskier said:
13718340:PNSkier said:
Didn't quote the whole thing cause its like a novel as someone else said but, holy shit. I've gotta hand it to you. You fucking destroyed me. I wrote that shit in like 5-10 minutes before going to bed without thinking of the backlash it could cause... If it makes you feel any better about yourself I read your entire "novel" and it's completely changed my point of view about the topic and for your enjoyment here's a stock photo to prove it.
P.s I'm actually super sorry and ON3P skis are pretty cool. Also thanks for telling me how much of an idiot I am and giving me a factory tour. Promise it wont happen again.
FishChowder
Member
And that was probably the best reply to the best post. Props for taking it like a champ instead of being a little whiney argumentative punk.
Skibumsmith
Active member
13718432:loganimlach said:
Yo I will definitely take you up on that offer.
snowfinder
Active member
13718385:loganimlach said:
This is why I stopped making skis it's super hard and time consuming.
Yung_Gnarley
Active member
13718431:link80 said:
DAMN
topic:azmunster said:
Thats so crazy. I had no idea that they were the only company doing that.
AGOF
Active member
I guess I’ll throw in some input on this.
Just because a ski factory is in house (US or otherwise) does not guarantee a quality product. Working at a shop in Portland I regularly saw two brands that were made in house, and quality was wildly different. I can honestly say I didn’t see one pair of ON3Ps with a flaw I could actually find in them come in, however literally every pair of Deviation skis I saw come in had something I could pick out within 2-3 minutes tops. Quality control is everything. To be fair, the Deviation skis I saw were the ones they sell to ski patrol for very cheap, but the other pairs usually had flaws as well, although maybe not as egregious (concave bases and messed up sidewalls everywhere)
Just because a ski factory is in house (US or otherwise) does not guarantee a quality product. Working at a shop in Portland I regularly saw two brands that were made in house, and quality was wildly different. I can honestly say I didn’t see one pair of ON3Ps with a flaw I could actually find in them come in, however literally every pair of Deviation skis I saw come in had something I could pick out within 2-3 minutes tops. Quality control is everything. To be fair, the Deviation skis I saw were the ones they sell to ski patrol for very cheap, but the other pairs usually had flaws as well, although maybe not as egregious (concave bases and messed up sidewalls everywhere)
13945633:Jesse_ said:
wholesome thread
topic:azmunster said:
*deep inhale*
GrandThings
Active member
13718444:Jesse_ said:
The amount of times I've launched trash-takes on NS before going to bed without actually thinking is ....numerable
VISHNU
Member
13947966:VinnieF said:
we outsource to highly educated and professional ski makers who have 20+ years of experience. We send them specific designs, concepts, and ideas, and using their judgement and experience, sell highly durable skis at a highly affordable price.
I have stood in a garage and made a pair of skis by hand. It was expensive and ineffective. In order to become a real business without taking out massive loans to build my own factory at age 23, I found an existing factory with good conditions and incredible expertise that happens to be located in China. You know who else does that? Literally thousands of companies whose products you use on a daily basis.
The business world is vast and highly nuanced...By outsourcing, I did what was best for the brand and best for the customer. I also contribute positively to the world economy. I respect and value American made products, but that is simply not our model. To say that we are not a ski company is ridiculous. We sell skis. We conceptualize them, design them, test them and send them to people. We are a ski company.
In closing, the world just isn't as black and white as it seems on the internet.
corona
Active member
13947981:VISHNU said:
I dunno why you stuck yourself into this thread when you are exactly what OP is talking about.
You are absolutely a marketing company, not a ski company. Doesn't matter that you made a pair of skis once.
Your genious is clearly in marketing, using the ski building skills of someone else, and as a result are doing very well. Good job.
I just wouldn't pretend that you are a ski company when what you're really doing is marketing skis that another company has made.
A good analogy is a grocery store, which markets and sells the product of other companies and has input to the producers based on what the customers want and are buying.
If someone claimed they owned a patio company but what they did was talk to the customer, get an idea of what they wanted, then relayed that info to a company that actually makes the patios, then most people would claim that person is disingenuous about their claims that they own a patio company.
I don't care you don't make skis. Good on you for finding a great way to make some money. But you should have realized you'd be called out when you posted in this thread..
a_burger
Active member
13948030:VinnieF said:
this is a pretty stupid way to look at things. Like the whole revision thing was dumb but who hell goes around saying “yeah that company their not a real ski company man” as if it matters beyond the quality of the ski itself. Reminder that Armada, Icelantic, and some other reputable ski companies all do this, yet they still are considered ski companies (and calling them anything else is nit picky and stupid)
vishnu very much has involvement in this since what bill wanrooy did threatened the credibility of all small ski companies and just ignoring it would be alienating since both companies served almost the same niche market
Casey
Active member
13948030:VinnieF said:
That’s not really the point. On the plus side outsourced manufacturing eliminates high barriers to entry to the marketplace. In the other ON3P thread Scott said minimum 1 million dollars to build a factory. It is yet untested how many independent US ski factories the market can bear, but my guess your average mainstream skier isn’t down with the markup that comes with made in USA so that number is probably less than 5.
The value add that Vishnu brings, as I see it , is that they design the skis that the manufacturer produces. You can say they sponsor atheletes, make videos, whatever else, but ultimately that is to get people to buy them. Their business is to design skis.
I don’t hate on what they do at all, I just wonder if they didn’t bring us one step closer to Vishnu just being in the way of the consumer being able to deal directly with the manufacturer. This is where they would pipe up and say, that’s not feasible, the producer won’t even take for phone call for XYZ reasons, but I don’t think we are that far away from people doing mass purchases organized on social media for custom ski builds. Like if there was a GoFundme that said, the producer in Beijing needs minimum 300 orders for generic blank Vishnu Wets, sign up and once we hit the minimum you get charged 275 bucks on PayPal or whatever. And there is various runs that rip off every kind of ski that is currently made.
I mean essentially when you strip out all the marketing that’s what’s left. Not saying it’s bad I just wonder where the industry is going in our modern global economy.
**This post was edited on Oct 6th 2018 at 11:37:23am
clorox
Active member
Almost all skate decks are produced in the same factory, and the only thing that most brands do are run them through a press that prints the graphic. On the other hand, ski companies have the ability to produce much more variety in their product, outsourced or not. The way I see it, if a brand puts effort into their skis and delivers the product they advertised there is nothing wrong with that. If their skis suck, or are not what they said they could be, people will talk about it and it will cost them sales.
corona
Active member
13948039:a_burger said:
How is it stupid to call a company whose entire purpose is to sell skis (not make skis) a marketing company? Ski retailer? Would that be better? At the end of the day what they are doing is marketing a brand of ski, that they don't make, so that it sells well. They are a marketing company.
Any other brand that does this is also a marketing company.
Sure, call them a 'ski company' if you like. They're a company that is involved with skis. But they are first and foremost a brand that they slap on skis that a totally different company makes that they then market. They're a marketing company above all else.
corona
Active member
13948049:Casey said:
First, no hate on Vishnu at all. Good on them for doing what they're good at (marketing a brand). Even better that it's apparently a quality product (from what I read).
I just don't want them to be confounded with actual ski companies that builds skis themselves. It's a totally different type of company.
Look at it this way:
A large ski manufacturer like K2 has a manufacturing division and a marketing division. Vishnu is just like the marketing division of a company like K2. It's equally important to the manufacturing, but it's just not the whole package. And just like at a company like K2, it would also be the marketing division that would be doing marketplace research into what their customers are looking for in a ski to make sure the skis are designed the way their customer base wants.