Religion vs creationism

actually i believe in creationism and evolution.

germans were created at the begginning of time and frozen in ice untill they were needed, and jews evolved from monkeys, clearly.
 
seriously i cant argue with people who believe in god. its very difficult to challenge a belief for which there is no evidence, yet can't really be disproved. i guess its a matter of faith either way.
 
Well, sorry rodadeaco and almostaskiier, but it's just no use arguing with you. From the sound of it, if Jesus himself were to descend from the sky, hand in hand with Darwin, and say "hey dudes... Darwin was right", you still wouldn't believe it. You are completely blinded by the christian values that were taught to you, or that you "discovered".

Now I know it's hard, but try this. Distance yourself from your current values, look at them with an objective eye. Read scientific works about subjects of interests, or just great writers. Attempt to shut religion out of your mind, and, using your rationality (after all, it's what distinguishes us from animals), think about what you just read. (Or, just browse the internet) Just think. Hold inner dialogue.

But I don't hold any illusions, you probably won't try. I think J.D pretty much posted irrefutable evidence on the other thread, and you just quoted one sentence of that massive post and tried to trick him with his use of words. I'd like to see either one just to try typing (or copy/pasting) such a cohesive set of examples that disprove the evolution theory.
 
theres no doubt that we and other things evolved. but i wonder how life began, like that first cell or whatever. its kinda freaky if you just sit and thin kabout stuff like that.
 
i am supposedly christian, yet i beleive in none of this shit. doesnt make sense with evolution having proof and all. yay evolution
 
Chuck Norris has probably gained more media attention since the premiere of Dodgeball until the present time, than he has in his entire career.

Ohhh shhhiiiieeettttt. Yes, I went there.
 
What, are you accusing us of close-mindedness now? Sorry if standing up for my beliefs makes me close-minded.

Not that any of you have been really open to my beliefs now have you?
 
I just don't get why it's so hard for you to grasp that trying to prove that God exists through existing evidence is totally unnecessary for religious people. I don't think it's the right path to spiritual enlightenment; why should something so completely beyond the physical universe have to rely on our worldly interpretations of it for our faith in it? That's what seems narrow-minded to me... if you're going to have faith, have FAITH. Don't look for material proof or understanding of that which is beyond material proof and understanding, because whatever you think you might find will lead to compromises I don't want to make on the nature of divinity, and won't be particularly enlightening anyway.

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=fideism
 
because what i believe has, if true, an impact on the world, what it is and where it came from. it defies logic to claim that someone/thing created the world and not back it up with evidence.

you can't have christianity in parts, really. theres no esoteric christianity, either. all you need to know is known to all. to come to spititual enlightenment in the God of the Bible, i think you need basis in real life and proof from what exists to justify what it is you claim.

i claim God created the world. so i shoudl not have any backing to that statement, based on the "real" world and what it can tell us? i am not saying you will see who God is by looking at the world, not that you will be able to understand him by exploring the world.

i am saying that, to back up a claim, you need sufficient proof for it. you know this. if i err on and on about creationism, it's because i believe christianity can in fcat be based uåon the scientific method when it comes to one of it's most important claims.
 
I just don't think spirituality and logic have or need any connection. I don't think faith needs any backing, in fact i've always believed that proof denies faith in so far as if we proved conclusively that God exists, we wouldn't NEED faith in him. If someone asks you what logical backing you have for your belief that God created the world, and everything, you don't need an argument as far as I'm concerned... you just need to answer "I simply believe it."

Trying to combine reasoning with faith is unnecessary and harmful to both, in my view.
 
well, as far as most everyone else is, i do...

i believe sceince to be the observation and understanding of creation. many people believe the opposite. we can't both be right at the same time. therefore, someone is right, the other wrong. it's hard to win an argument if you simply say you just believe it, not matter whether that is valid or not.

can you prove God exists? no, not really. you can, however, give your position a better backing if it involves reason and make it more probable that he does.

though i agree that if you can prove he exists, you don't need faith i him existing, you could however, still need faith to believe everything entailed by the Bible.

how is it harmful?
 
A christian cannot share his faith with someone and expect them to believe what he believes. He must offer some sort of proof. Likewise, you cannot offer faith in evolution and the big bang theories and expect people to believe that. To pursuade anyone to believe what you believe, you'll have to offer up some sort of proof.

Of course, I cannot see God with my own eyes, therefore I can never be sure that God exists without faith. Advocates of the big bang theory and macro evolutionists never actually seen it happen(the big bang). They will also have to rely on some sort of faith.

When I die, I WILL go to heaven, I have faith in that. But when I'm there I will see God, that will be 100% proof for me that God exists, and I will not require faith to believe anymore.
 
Faith in the big bang is evident with the engergy that is still present in the universe from the big bang. The is plenty "evidence" for you padre.
 
Well... if you're thrown attacks by every side it might be a natural reaction to argue. Simply endlessly repeating "I simply believe it" is a bit of a weak defense, if you ask me.

Again, though, no point arguing with fervent (is that a word in english) christians. I never managed to convince any one of them of anything, nor have I seen anyone else do. And some of their counter-argumetns are laughable (sorry).
 
Maybe there was a tremendous amount of energy released in the universe when God created it? I'm by no means an expert in this subject, and am not trying to debate it with you. My point is, you did not see it happen, therefore, no matter how much proof you have, you are still going to be relying on faith.
 
I think God is the easy way out of explaining things that we may never be able to solve.

Now Math associasted with the cosmos, that is taking the road less traveled.
 
That's not actually logical... there are many things we do not need to see that we can believe without faith, in a couple of ways. To offer one example, I know that nowhere in the universe will I find an unmarried bachelor, or a three-sided square, despite not having seen everything in the universe. That's an easy counter, but the point is that you can draw some firm conclusions without empirical evidence.
 
Why do you need to "win" an argument about it? Personally, my belief in God is not only unthreatened by my lack of being able to defend it in an argument. The alternative, constantly trying to "win" debates about it, seems kind of insecure to me, actually, and it always has. The idea that belief in God NEEDS a victory over the physical evidence is, in my mind, harmful to the idea of spirituality, additionally because, as I say, faith is defined by belief in something for which we HAVE no firm evidence... in spite of this, belief must persist. That, in my mind, is true faith. And this: " you don't need faith i him existing, you could however, still need faith to believe everything entailed by the Bible." remains a harm to faith in that sense, because the existence of God is a big thing to believe in.

"A christian cannot share his faith with someone and expect them to believe what he believes. He must offer some sort of proof. Likewise, you cannot offer faith in evolution and the big bang theories and expect people to believe that. To pursuade anyone to believe what you believe, you'll have to offer up some sort of proof.

Of course, I cannot see God with my own eyes, therefore I can never be sure that God exists without faith. Advocates of the big bang theory and macro evolutionists never actually seen it happen(the big bang). They will also have to rely on some sort of faith.

When I die, I WILL go to heaven, I have faith in that. But when I'm there I will see God, that will be 100% proof for me that God exists, and I will not require faith to believe anymore."

Firstly, I will never understand this irritatingly preachy need to "persuade" the unbeliever, it's annoying and futile, and it's what people are always complaining about with regard to Christians. Can you grab hold of what I'm trying to say, think about it, and really understand why in my mind I don't want or need "proof" that God exists? You guys seem to be taking it as read that it's necessary, and after your own complaints that people don't have open minds, it seems a tad hypocritical. I don't think what I'm saying is easily dismissed nor difficult to understand.

As for going to Heaver... Faith in God is something connected with our mortal existence for those of us who do have it, and you're right, it will be confirmed after death, and faith will no longer be required. But that happens later, and could in some ways be seen as a reward for that faith. After we pass on, we'll know, and faith won't be necessary anymore. I'm talking about how we live life, here.
 
could it be, perchance, that you have yet to convince them, because you ahve yet to offer convincing arguments to them, as you say we do to you?

and JD, about winning the argument.... i should have said there is no hope to convince anyone or even come off as knowledgeable to someone if you only say you believe in it...
 
And when it comes to belief in God, I'm saying that sounds fairly insecure to me. Why should you care that someone who doesn't believe is convinced? What is this need to come off as "knowledgeable"? In my case, I do believe in God, and feel no need to justify that belief to anyone. If they need an explanation or proof, I have none, nor need any. And if to an athetist, or an empirical theist, that makes me less knowledgeable, I consider that a fault in their ability to understand my position on faith, not a comment on my knowledge, intelligence or belief.

I just think this whole need to justify oneself in matters of spiritual belief is evidence of weakness and insecurity in that belief.
 
you can't say there is proof and not show it, there is no proof that is why it is not a good arguement.

First off, many things in the bible have been found as historical. Secondly someone said the easy route is beleiving in God? Actually there is a reason why its like 1000 to one in the christains on this site, no one is a christian its the HARD WAY. People take the easy way out, everyone here is equally close minded to the oppenents argument really.

Now there is no proof either way, but you can argue with questions.

Can you make something out of nothing? No, is time infinite? Not by modern science's standards. Why do you have morals? Those things implanted in your head? Do you really truly beleive that there was an explosion of nothing and then it was something, and that something turned into a universe, with living animals on it? Can you take a rock and make something live out of it? A perfectly steril rock? Where did that gravity come from? Because the different elements were caused alot by the compaction and heat from gravity and friction. right? Well gravity had to come from somewhere.

All these things are assumed.

Now I beleive in what I am told from a historical document that also teaches me to be a more respectable person to take care of my myself and others. And to give credit to the one that made our life the way it is. You are every bit as close minded. And I know my facts. It wise also fact that more scientists are beginning to beleive in ID.

Now is it that unbeleivable that we were created by a higher being? you are saying in your mind, Yes of course.

Now we have a pile or metal bits and pieces, all suspended over a whirlpool of water ok? Now, we are cheating a little bit because you already have something to start with which the universe did not.. The chances of us happening is the same as you dumpings that 2 tons of sheet metal and screws into this whirlpool, and outcomes a car smarter then any machine we have EVER built. And a gas pump that emits its own fuel. Hey, It could happen........Just like MickyD's says.
 
Absolutely. This is what I've felt and tried to explain for quite a few years, but have never really seen it put so eloquently. Thank you J.D.
 
actually its not insecurity in the least. The bible tells us we are to go out and make diciples and help people come to Christ. So its nothing to do with insecurity, because I am very secure in my beleif. I would just like people to see the truth instead of deceiving themselfs and trying to use their witty knowledge to make arguments that uphold nothing. So if people were insecure about it, they wouldn't bring it up. Sitting by and watching is not an option for a christian on fire.
 
So you're one of those "preachy" christians giving the rest of us a bad name, then. See, I still don't get it, because one would think you'd be smart enough to realize that dubious arguments aren't going to convince ANYONE who doesn't already believe anyway, and they won't even convince everyone who does. In fact, making yourself into a missionary "on fire" probably drives more people away from Christianity than it attracts. So all I've got to say to you is... you're hurtin' the team, stoppit.
 
JD I hardly talk to people at all in real life. I talk to people on here because there is nothing to hurt. I hate that when you do something like go to a show pyut on by a christian group and they make everyone pray together at the end, or make the people that don't know christ raise their hands, I talk on here, because everyone just says we are jesus freaks and fuckers, there is no harm to be done in my opinion.
 
An unmarried bachelor eh? :P

I get what you're saying about the three sided square. I could have used a stronger example. However I still stand by my previous argument. The evidence available in favor of evolution and the big bang theory is not rock solid. It still requires an element of faith.

So you're one of those "preachy" christians giving the rest of us a bad name, then. See, I still don't get it, because one would think you'd be smart enough to realize that dubious arguments aren't going to convince ANYONE who doesn't already believe anyway, and they won't even convince everyone who does. In fact, making yourself into a missionary "on fire" probably drives more people away from Christianity than it attracts. So all I've got to say to you is... you're hurtin' the team, stoppit.

I think with the right approach, missionary work does work. A lot of people are more open to Christianity than the people on this site (not accusing you of close-mindedness neccessarily, but most of you seem to have your minds made up, just like us Christians have ours made up). I've seen "preachy" christians as you call them, lead people to Christ, but as I said earlier, the right approach must be taken. I'd like to hear Patty's comments, as his family are missionaries and he could probably share some insight as to whether we're "hurtin' the team" or not.
 
I MEANT MARRIED BACHELOR. Jerk. Hahaha.

1. I am a Christian. I'm just more fideist, and not an empirical theist. I don't like empirical theism at all. I think it's weak, largely philosophically unsupportable and utterly unnecessary. As far as "largely philosophically unsupportable" goes, at least, I happen to be right. Which is why I said that it doesn't even convince some of us who DO already believe.

2. They might lead some people to Christ by pushing religion on them. But I think the dominant opinion of those not already within the Christian religious body is that "Pushy Christians who try to make you believe in their religion are irritating and overbearing". That image kinda sucks for the church. Not that I'm particularly associated with the Church itself... and this may be one reason why, actually.
 
I think its unfortunate that some people do try push their beliefs on others. If anything, it only creates hostilities. I think one of the best ways to "prove" christianity is by being an example to others through actions.

To be honest, I never really thought you were a christian. You seemed to me an evolutionist in the strictest sense. I'd be interested to hear a little more about your beliefs. You sound sort of hostile to spreading the gospel, yet as Christians that is what we are called to do. Maybe I'm misinterpretting you, and would understand your view if I knew your basic beliefs. If ya don't mind. Theres a thread for this sort of thing in the Ride For Christ cult if you don't want to post in NSG, check your PM.
 
Nah man, it's just that when I said that I wasn't actually referring to people on NS, but more to actually (spoken) conversations with visible people.

Well... this is one of these rare threads where actual intelligent debate is taking place, and it's rather interesting. No one is bashing each other unnecessarly (sorry if I sounded a bit harsh earlier).

So all in all, I believe what J.D is saying is commendable from a moral point of view and that, well, no one can really argue with it. You can never hold it against a person (in my case anyways) if he or she firmly believes in something because they simply have faith in it (although sometimes, the source of the faith is questionnable).

My problem, obviously, isn't with that. It's more with the fact that for some Christians, that unquestionnable faith bars them from exploring other horizons, i.e different religious cultures, important reads, and it leads to some exageration.

What I've said before still holds... I hold no illusions as to convincing anyone of anything. If some domains (afterlife, the origin of the world, it's end, etc.) are very interesting to debate about on a religious point of view, in others, honestly, religion's traditional stories are past this time.

Faith alone can't bar evidence. I think we're past the point of copy/pasting or quoting on Creationism vs. Evolution, but you've got to admit that science has a damn good case. Faith about purely religious matters is good, but unshakable and eternal faith about domains that were practically scientifically proven decades or centuries ago is bad.

So I can't hold it against a person for having that kind of unshakable faith, but to be honest, it's a tad irritating.
 
I can't find the thread you're talking about in the cult. They all seem to have some relevance.

It's a difficult thing to define. Maybe by some peoples' standards I "don't count" as a Christian. But then I'm sure there are people by whose standards all of Protestantism doesn't count as Christian, so... whatever.

I don't take a particularly structured view of Christianity. I believe that Jesus had a certain core philosophy that has at times been interpreted and reinterpreted in perhaps too literal a fashion, and that some of the more specific teachings of the church are less dedicated to that general philosophy than I'd like. As a result, what we are "called to do", or called to think for that matter, often does not appeal to me. I don't think it's really contrary to the most positive themes of the Christian faith to believe in evolution, but that's not really how I look at it. I don't even think about reason, science, the way the world works etc. in conjunction with a belief in God. When I'm thinking about philosophy, I'm not think about it in that context. I can keep reason separate from faith in that way. Yet, I do not question the existence of God, nor that Christ died for my sins, and I'm quite convinced that he's constantly with me in all things. My faith is exactly that: faith. No philosophy, no scientific method, just a complete belief in certain things about the divine. Like I said, fideism. I guess It's all kind of vague, so maybe I'd have a better idea of how to explain if you were to ask me a question. But that's not what the thread is about.
 
The main thing you need to do in missionary work, is like you and JD have said, to avoid being preachy. don't start proclaiming on high that everyone is hellbound and that you are better, somehow, because you ahve faith.

i have always disliked the people who do that sort of thing. nevermind pretty much everyone has faith in something, and that the Bible teaches that we are all equal in sin and hellboundeness (new word!). What is does is, like JD said, give us a bad name. no one gives a rip about a preachy Christian, and no one wants to listen to people with a faux air of superiority. THAT is hurtin' the team.

What i strive to do, and what all missionaries strive to do, is to treat everyone with love. To live according to what you believe in, is the strongest testimony you can give. i have seen my fair share of people come to Christ, and i don't think that once it has come through something someone said, though my dad has seen this many times.

If you talk of love for all men, forgiveness and garce, you must act accordingly. my "work" is to be the best person i can be, and live according to the example of Jesus Christ. you don't need faith for this, i know. but my faith in the things unseen drives me and holds me accountable not only to myself, but to someone who knows my every action.

The work of a missionary is to act out of love, and be a freind, while living according to what you say you believe. i never bring up my faith unless it is asked of me, and trust me, people will ask you questions. from the point on that they know you live accprding to what you say, people get curious. this is why i feel a foundation for your faith is important. in matters of evolution vs creationism, the average non believer will not and does not care about you beleive if there is no backing to your claims. if someone asks you about what you believe, you tell them. and to whatever claim you have, it is your duty to take your burden of proo and lay it down.

i never impose what i believe on others. what i do in my "work" is to offer another view point when asked, to answer the questions that are brought to me, and when no one is asking, to be the same old Patty to everyone and not pry on people.

people who are preachy and self glorifyin ' for the Lord are hurtin' the team. Those who live as examples of their faith, all the while offering your faith to those who hunger for another way, are not.
 
And now, my two cents....

I believe in God. I believe in creation. I believe that Jesus came down in human form and died on the cross for the sins that I've committed and that sins I will commit. I believe that many of you are searching for something to believe in, and will fill that "void" with whatever feels good. I'll finish with this, "taste and see that the Lord is good"

Now concerning what has been discussed in this thread, JD why aren't you in a church? You are well educated and have a lot of good point in your discussion, it sounds like you could really be used. Almostaskier and Rodeo....what good has argueing ever done? It turns people away with their preconceived notions that all Christians are preachy, stand on a soapbox do-gooders that are very full of themselves. I'll be the first to admit I screw up a lot. I'm no better than anyone on this site, or in this world. I respect people with different views than myself and I understand that the wrath of God is near and there is an urgency about the message that we proclaim. Let's be smart about it though.

People, JD has made one of the better points in this discussion. We will find out when we die. I'm confident in the fact that what I believe in will save me from a "second death" and I would love to see many more ripping skiers there with me
 
sorry that's my opinion, no one try to talk to me about it, I'm angry at something right now and not in th emood, sorry to those i offended
 
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