Rant on the modern condition of Mankind.

IcePointa

IcePointa

Active member
FOX NEWS ALERT:

This article has been rated 'potential thought crime' by the literary division of the Homeland Security Terror-Alert Division . You would definately be better off turning up the TV and letting Murdoch condition your mind to better suit him than read this uber rant. Afterall, he's really rich and probably knows best. If you're worthy, maybe you'll be rich like him one day. Dolla Dolla Billz Yall.

(you probably won't, but in the process of trying you'll certainly make him richer...

..and kill some 3rd world people)

Hi. It looks like you may potentially have some interest in directing your own mental development as you're here reading this text that you will soon discover is a fringe perspective rejecting mainstream culture and its values instead of watching a reality television show. You might not. This is a warning. Please tune your television set to I LOVE NEW YORK 2!!111!!two!!1!!!

Right....still here? I'll get on with it.

So I noticed a thread last night titled, "NEW LOVE OF MY LIFE!!" or something along those lines. I expected to see someone boasting about a hot chick he had sex with last night, or a new puppy, etc. It is quickly discovered that the love of his life is infact a hunk of metal that consumes stored light energy in the earth to pollute the planet and prevent him from having to travel anywhere by his own merit. Alright..I will give the benefit of the doubt and concede that this may not infact actually be the love of his life and is a figure of speech. Based on pms with the original poster I can see that hes a very nice guy and is probably less neurotic than the average American consumer. But I also argue that this statement may be more true than the poster himself understands or intended to convey. Ultimately the thread just got me thinking again about the things we tend to value today.

I make a comment intended to provoke thought about ultimately how much that car has and will cost based on hours sacrificed from the act of actually living to pay debts. I receive a response from someone else stating that

"It wouldn't be slave labour if it got him a car bitchface" I loled

This got me thinking about how the workforce today seems to have a disconnect from the fact that they are not free in any real sense of the word. The leaders of the western world have molded the earth in such a way, and built our culture so that it is almost impossible for people to survive in a comfortable manner without subjecting themselves to the rule of their superiors and sacrificing their time and effort to create capitol (profit) by submitting to the duties of their 'jobs'.

The only difference between workers now and those on fiefdoms in the middle ages is that we've got better technology now that our masters reward us with for our labour. The modern man has less free time than a peasant did over 500 years ago, and certainly much less free time than those in indian societies (hunter gatherer societies required about 3 hours work a day to live comfortably, the rest of the time they spent at play).

And this technology just makes it even harder to break free because it has destroyed our environment to the point that most people couldn't live independantly if they put even significant efforts into the attempt. And even if the you manage it and live in a first world country, the tax collectors come kick you out of your home because you owe the masters property taxes.

Sorry, just because you're paid better doesn't mean you're more free. I'd wager that it would be easier to escape from a southern plantation than from modern wage-slavery. Mass propaganda dispersed since before your mind had the capacity to reason has led you to believe that without consuming these goods of mass production that your lives would be of less value. The vast majority of people never attempt to free themselves because they 'need' these modern ammenities.

LOL you kids don't care. You live in a world superpower and are shielded from the true effects of this system. But if you paid attention you would notice the lives that have been destroyed around the world by forcing people from the traditional ways they wish to live and giving them no alternative but to rape the Earth around them to extract resources they ship to your country. Ancient homelands claimed by the wealthy and destroyed for profit, leaving the people to migrate into urban centers to beg and sacrifice their freedom for a piece of these profits so that they can survive. (However, I feel this system will not be endured by the downtrodden indefinately.)

Be weary. Globalization has began and the standards of living for all first world inhabitants but the upper class will continue to decline inevitably toward the level of 3rd world poverty. What makes you think your labor is more valueable than that of a person who lives in China? Don't worry, the slip will be slow and gradual. You might not notice what has happened at all, and (if you are lucky) the more drastic effects may be felt by your children after you are dead. Corporations have no sense of what is good for humanity, merely what is good for profit.

THEY PAY ONLY ENOUGH TO KEEP PEOPLE FROM THROWING OFF THEIR CHAINS. WHAT HAPPENS WHEN THE MAJORITY OF PEOPLE FEEL THEY CAN'T LIVE WITHOUT THESE CHAINS AND ACTUALLY FEEL PROTECTION IN THEM? THERE IS LESS AND LESS INCENTIVE FOR COMPANIES TO REWARD THEIR LABORERS ANY MORE THAN TO KEEP THEM ALIVE.

Our country's economy cannot survive without growth. How can it when the moment a dollar is transfered from the federal reserve, the recipent takes on debt in the form of interest? More capital must be created to pay this debt. This can be done by using natural resources to do more work, or by better exploiting those they interact with, either by paying their workers less (or by managing to do the same work with less employees), or by charging consumers more (or both).

The rapid growth of the economy over the past 150 years has been fueled by our abilty to harness more and more fossil fuels to do work and create capitol. However, we seem to have a problem. We cannot continue the growth in use of this fuel for one of two reasons, perhaps both. 1: Due to global warming there is a need to actually REDUCE the amount of fuel we consume. 2: Due to resource depletion we realize that the oil in the ground is not unlimited and we will be forced to REDUCE fuel consumption due to availibility.

Either way it is clear that we cannot continue with these practices that have been feuling economic growth for these past years. This is not a matter merely of slowing growth, but an actual REDUCTION. This growth once gave the notion that there is hope for every man that he might build a world of steadily increasing reward for everyone. This hope is quickly turning into a lost dream as we realize that the global economy will by neccessity turn into a zero-sum game. For one man to profit, another will have to sustain a loss. For one nation to increase production, another will have to stop production. We are rapidly heading into a world where wars are fought for the right to fossil fuels and class wars are fought between the rich and the poor. They only way for those that own the means of production to increase profit (once they realize production cannot be further increased) is to give less to their servants.

In a word where production is steady or slowly dropping, what sense does it make to have a few powerful individuals own the means of production so that they could consolidate power over the rest of us? Take back your lives and learn to support yourselfs as individual human beings, not merely as consumers of poisen to yourselves and the planet.

The problem is not that you as an individual are wasteful, or that you should feel bad that the things you do are killing the Earth. The problem is that our masters have created a system in which you have no choice but to go along with if you are to survive in the way that you have come to expect. There is no real alternative presented to you. Until our masters are thrown down we cannot live from the earth as nature intended. They will use you as a tool to destroy it in the pursuit of capital.

-!-!-!-!-!-!-!-!-!-!-!-!-!-!-!-!-!-!-!-!-!-!-!-!-!-!-

Our generation must come up with a way to throw of the chains of capitalist-consumer wage slavery and exploitative multinational corporations! We must come up with a way that we can live on the Earth in a sustainable manner in which individuals are free from exploitation by those who wish power over them! This is the greatest task we can set our minds to. Are we up to the challenge?

-!-!-!-!-!-!-!-!-!-!-!-!-!-!-!-!-!-!-!-!-!-!-!-!-!-!-

 
I have two requests.

First off, the use of modern in your title bothers me. Sure, if you look too deeply into it, life sucks. That's not something that came with the modern age. If you believe it's worse now, prove it.

Secondly, a rant generally implies that there's a better way of doing things that we should embrace. I personally don't think humanity could operate any other way. Utopian societies are extremely interesting in theory, but not one has survived the test of the real world to date. If you think there's a better way to live, present it.

By the way, 1984 is up there among my favorite books.
 
Unfortunately, we are most definitely not up to the challenge. In fact, the vast majority of us won't even be up to reading your rant past the first three or four paragraphs. It's well written, but I think the Non Ski Gabber section isn't the best location, and the crowd of Newschoolers probably isn't ready to discuss this. Try handing it in to a professor instead..
 
the chains that you mention are what holds up most of modern society; we've become way too dependent on them. If they were finally removed, the "modern world" would collapse instantly.
 
Well this is all true to an extent.....but everything has its own truths and falisies depending on your perspective and position in the chain.

The only other choice you have is:

A) Move to a highly remote area of the world, use the money you have right now to purchase basic supplies and possibly some sort of ever lasting non taxing deal. Live sustainably upon this land for the rest of your life. Forget about everyone else and the rest of the world.

B) Revolt, Assasinate, rise up. --all i can say is good luck, and i'm not joining unless i see due cause.

The major difference between our current society and previous societs is that we can move up and throughout classes fairly easily. If you are successful you can most likely accomplish many of the things you want. It just takes a lot of luck and intelligence. Or knowing the right people.
 
This is a modern dilemma. We have come to the limits of the world we inhabit. There is no more room for expansion of almost any kind. In ages past, if a person rejected the way a culture functioned, he was free to set out in search of open territory where he could procceed to live as he wished and even start a new society there to reflect it. Where can we go now?

The founders of America came to the new world after throwing off the chains of Empire. The empire followed them and begin to set its roots. Now the banking and taxation practices of control they set out to free themselves from have flourished here. There is no where left to run. It is definately worse now. Imagine the hope and awe one could feel in setting sail into uncharted waters in search of a new land. Today we know the world is round, finite. There is no new world. I feel this is a tragic realization.

And no I don't personally have a complete model of a proven alternative civilization. If I had to pick one I would look toward hunter-gatherer societies, but due to overpopulation it would be impossible for everyone to live like this. There has to be a way to incorporate some of the good, productive things we have learned through all this destruction into a way to live freely and sustainably. This could not be planned out by 1 man, let alone a 19 year old kid. But if everyone truely realized the situation we were in, together we could work out a solution.
 
"the fact that they are not free in any real sense of the word"

I agree totally but this is mainly americas fault. Theres places in the world where you can be free but in america theres only certain "american" ways your allowed to get enjoyment. Like earning money, buying expensive shit, buying more expensive shit. Just like they make fun of in trainspotting. Americans are totally played by the consumer industry. All the big companies want you to buy expensive cars instead of drugs. They want your money. Americans are totally blind to the truth.

you only live once
 
That's not "Americanism" that's capitalism. I'm guessing your Canadian by the way you say Americans instead of we. I really hate to break it to you man, but Canada is a capitalist country too.
 
The truth of these claims has nothing to do with your position in society, merely your willingness to reflect upon those truths.

I very much want to find a place where I can live freely, but finding a place without unconditional taxation seems to be the main challenge, especially if you don't want to totally isolate yourself from the world at large. I love people and I want my family, friends and everyone else to be free from these burdens as well.

This leaves revolution. Idealistically, this would not happen until people start thinking about how they are living actaully effects everything around them. Realistically they will not rebel until they realize their own lives could be better outside this system. Right now, each American has the equivalent of dozens of 'energy slaves' doing work to make their lives easier. Even if a person realizes the harm they are doing to the word, they feel the benefits of the exploitation. I feel that soon people will start feeling the hardships of the rest of the world as our economy stalls, the dollar slips, and the production of oil begins to fall permanently. Then people may finally see the need for change.
 
Civilizations have been exploiting the earth and other people for a long time before America. Think British Empire. And like it has been said this is a problem with the capitalist-consumer system that goes far beyond America, which just happens to be the most successful capitalist nation. Basically it boils down to 1st world nations exploiting 3rd world nations and the rich exploiting the poor at every other level of society you could imagine.

The average consumer is so well insolated from this exploitation that they do not consciously acknowledge it is happening.

There are changes coming that I feel will upset the balance of this system. These changes could be for better or for worse, and we must be viligant that things do not change for the worse.
 
wow, thank you. i feel the same way and i often think about the spiraling shit hole that we call society. we are having the wool pulled over our eyes more or less for one mans profit and you exploited all the flaws of the increasingly apparent hierarchy.
 
The 'modern world' is at risk of collapse anyway. We are running up against a brick wall of production, whose steady growth has kept the world economy functioning up till this time. There are severe changes coming and we need to think about how to approach them.

There must not be power structures in place once production begins to fall that will put us in debt of those who own the means of production. There will be no way for us to pay these percieved debts. And they certainly won't be able to reward us so generously for any continued service.
 
You're point of not having any room for expansion is amazing, I never realized how important that was. The thing is though, I don't think we've had the ability to expand without consequences for a long time. The European expansion into America came at a huge cost for the natives. True, one group of people found freedom from religious oppression, but another group was effectively beaten down, its wings' clipped, true freedom taken.

There are still possibilities to live life by your own rules however. Granted, you can't do it without dropping your standard of living substantially, but it can still be done. A lot of what you write parallels Thoreau's work. You could always follow his example and live simply in the wilderness. It's still possible to live "off the grid" so to speak in the U.S. I personally could never go through with that and it's sad that that's the only option, but nonetheless, it is an option.
 
You're basically talking about the evolving relationship between the United States and China. We are massively in debt to 3rd world country. So much in fact that China can influence U.S. policy by threatening to dump it's reserves of U.S. dollars onto the market, thus ruining the value of our currency. China's growth is also going to drive the world economy in the coming century, there's no doubt about that.
 
It is very true that among the American settlers were many capitalists. I feel a suspicion that among the motivations of some at least was the effort to get in on the ground floor of an Empire so that they could control it in a way that they could not in Britain (where old family lines were heavily entreanched in power). The concept of Manifest Destiny is an admission that early America was as much an Empire as Britain, maybe more brutal. Instead of enslaving through colonial expansion, they merely killed the natives and took their land with no pretenses.

I don't feel any sorrow for the loss of this type of expansion, but ahead of the capitalists seeking to conquer, were frontiersmen truely seeking independance, and a new life. Initially, there were many cases of whites living among the Native Americans as the natives themselves did. The sickness of exploitation and empire followed soon after, but it is very different.

And what I fear is that there are very few truely wild places left. However, we have a great technology to aid in many of our problems though. CONTRACEPTIVES. We don't need 6 billion people here, there isn't enough room. Stop having so many damned babies so we can get down to a sensible population level - 1 Billion would be nice. Unfortunately condoms are made from oil. Hopefully their availability is not soon compromised.
 
Hooray for petroleum based products!

But seriously, I believe the progression from frontiersmen to capitalists is an inevitable function of the world. It's disgusting, but it's part of human nature. Certain people will always be able to coexist with each other and the environment. Other people will always have the drive to subvert and destroy for personal profit. The problem is that it only takes one of the latter relying on human greed to counteract the influence of a hundred of the former.
 
You're right, ultimately I don't see how this situation could cause anything but a reduction in quality of life for Americans, but not any reduction that is not deserved. The entire practice of producing largely trival and ultimately uneeded goods on the other side of the world and then shipping them thousands of miles to consumers is going to be one of the first practices to meet resistance from resource depletion.

But the growth of China poses another problem. There is no more room for their growth at all. Sorry, theres no more excess oil for you all to build a society like our own, and even if there was, you couldn't burn it because its destroying the planet. They are in a tough spot and I don't think they're in a position to fight us for increased oil use.

But in that post I was thinking more about the relationship between producers and consumers within our own country. Our economy is based on increasing growth, and without it I see no other option than for the form it is in now to collapse. We need to remove basic technology from the hands of those who steward it only for profit and devise a system that will provide it regardless. People in rural areas can't get cable because its not profitable, not because we could not easily provide it. The motives of profit from the providance of basic systems will be removed in an economy without growth. We would go more and more in debt to those who own the means of production while a system of shared ownership of these systems could be easily provided to everyone.

After cell phone coverage covers the entire country and towers require only periodic maintainance, after the costs of the network building have been recovered, do you think Verizon is suddenly going to reduce their contract prices to a fraction of what they were? No, the phone companies will just keep buying themselves until there is one left to exploit you, or two to cooperate in the effort (if at this point there is any pretense to competition left). And they will collect money from you, symbolizing your servitude to it, as long as the technology exists.

Corporations control us through the government and through the production of goods alike. When their ability to constantly increase production falters, and we realize that the need for them has passed, that the means of production could be shared among us instead of controled by a few men, I'm not sure that they will not increase their grip on us in attempt to not be shaken off. They have alot to lose, and if they cannot keep our servitude through rewards and promises of a future in which you too might own some new facet of production, those in power always have the option to resort to force. We need to start working their grip off now.

 
Easier said than done, like you said, the era of mom and pop businesses is long over.

The thing about China is that they don't have to fight anybody over oil use. No country in the world is in a position to tell China what to do economically. We all stand so much to lose by a trade embargo. If the flow of Chinese goods was cut off half of our companies would have to shut down within a month I'd say. Meanwhile, China has a rapidly growing middle class that they could dump all of their former exports on. Granted, they would take a hit, but it would be an inconvenience when compared to our catastrophe.
 
I don't think it is any more enevitable that a few men should rule the world through corporations than it is that 1 man rule a nation or the world as dictator. For a long time thats how it was. But we have developed something of a democratic nation in which it is impossible for 1 man to rule it. Sure people may try but there are safeguards built in that prevent it. The American Constitution is miraculous in this feature. We have merely let the capitalist assume control instead of King through lack of diligence. With enough safeguards we could assert the right of the individual against the right of the corporation and have it respected.
 
i didnt really read all of that but i hate it when people believe in evolution but hate capitalism b/c capitalism is basically economic evolution
 
marx.jpg

 
Just because capitalism could be construed as a product of "economic evolution" doesn't make capitalism any better for humanity than smallpox (a product of biological evolution).

We bitch smacked smallpox, made it extinct and now humankind is a little better off without it.

We should do the same thing to this consumer-capitalist ideology of globalization that is causing so much shittiness in the world.
 
You have some good points, many of which I agree with to an extent. However, there was one paragraph in your initial rant which really got my goat.

"The problem is not that you as an individual are wasteful, or that you

should feel bad that the things you do are killing the Earth. The

problem is that our masters have created a system in which you have no

choice but to go along with if you are to survive in the way that you

have come to expect. There is no real alternative presented to you.

Until our masters are thrown down we cannot live from the earth as

nature intended. They will use you as a tool to destroy it in the

pursuit of capital."

We still control our own capital. There is an alternative to the system, but it's not an easy one. There is no need for a violent revolution to hurl our masters down from the precipices unto a screaming horde below. We need simply to stop buying, spending uselessly. We need to understand that every cent we spend speaks louder than the words from our mouths. We need to understand that our voting record is inconsequential in comparison to our record as consumers. When we stop spending, money will stop mattering. It's as simple as that. The almighty dollar, in whatever form it takes, is not above the most basic principle of it's own capitalist system; supply and demand.

We may be pawns, but our will is still free. A path is set, but it is only our decisions that lead us down it.
 
I've been disturbed by our consumer driven society for awhile now. Recently, I've realized how college has played into the "scheme." Now, it seems to buy our nice cars and fancy leather couches, we have to have a college degree. What do we do to get that degree? We pay for it. With money we don't have. This is just one part of the problem i've been thinking about lately.

I don't think "we're" going to end this. It's an epidemic. People love to buy stuff. It's what we've been conditioned to do. We equate it with happiness. Think- christmas.

I try to not buy shit I don't need, but I'm not going to stop buying stuff. New skis? fuck ya id like a pair of new skis...

in conclusion, fuck this shit
 
This is a very good point. A mass revolt in terms of just a refusal to participate in this system is exactly what we need. TURN ON. TUNE IN. DROP OUT. Something like it was tried in the 70s when hippies refused to go get jobs and instead did whatever the fuck they wanted to do at the time. However, the hippie movement was still a very small segment of the population. If a similar movement were ignited, in more numbers, numbers enough to reach a 'critical mass', we might see some real changes.
 
I'm not gonna read any of this rubbish bullshit propaganda in this thread. fuck it

I love my lyfe and it is so fucking sick, the standard of living that I have is fucking legit. Fuck all tha hataz.
 
I hope you're being sarcastic but I have a sinking feeling that you're not.

You're 'standard of living' is not increased as much as you might think it is even if you're merely basing it on your own personal happiness. Certainly not enough to warrent all the suffering in the world.

Anyone who TRUELY feels this way has allowed a manifestation of evil onto the Earth through your thoughts and your kind will surely bring HELL ON EARTH if not fought back against. Think about what you're suggesting and what a worthless piece of shit you are.

mother_and_child_starving_bw.jpg


 
The communist ideology is not a bad one. Consider this for a moment...

A COMMUNIST DEMOCRACY

How could this not be the best form of government ever? Has this been attempted in the history of mankind? You elect leaders to manage the means of production for the people and spread wealth evenly among them. If they suck you elect new ones. You create safeguards to prevent a 2 party system. You could even have it be a REAL DEMOCRACY in which qualified citizens vote on specific issues through internet capabilities. Add in safeguards to protect the minorities from the whims of the majority...

I WANT THIS NOW.

Someone give me a valid reason this would not be awesome!!!
 
I'm sorry but that skinny ass kid doesn't mean shit to me. I am happy regardless of what happens to that kid, if he starves I couldn't give a fuck, ya it's unfortunate but not enough for me to change my life or help him. There are other more deserving people anyway. I fuckin love my lyfe and don't tell me that it isn't that great. Ya it could be better but I'm a happy motherfucker right now. Stop reading too far into things and thinking all hell is gonna break loose, people have been doing that kinda shit for centuries and nothing has ever happened so take out the dick and go skiing.
 
good thinking bro, my life is sick right now as well. Im in college with a 3.83 gpa, i have food on my plate, im fortunate enough to have a wonderful girlfriend and an incredible family. Why should I read into shit like that when I have worked really hard to be where I am today and when my family before me worked hard to give me the life i have. Im not going to let something like this detract from my happiness becuase its not fair to make someone feel like shit for their privilege. We work hard in life to make our lives better, why cant we be happy for ourselves?
 
You're claim to be happy, and you brush off any sense of sorrow for tragedy or responsibility for your fellow man. Lacking obvious emotional development, I don't think you know what happiness can actually be. You claim to love life and then claim to feel no love for the life of others. You are sick, and your mental capacity seems sub-human. The 'happiness' you get from all your consumer trash is a hollow shell of what it could be. I feel bad for you. Please reflect on your own worth in relation to this infinate universe. Try to be a positive aspect in it.

universe.jpg


Times are different now than they have ever been. The world has been fully explored and we can communicate in seconds with people on the other side of it. Each of us has almost a god-like view of the Earth through the internet. You can summmon almost any fact worth knowing within seconds. You can read the thoughts of anyone who has something to share through millions of blogs from people around the world. You can see the broad social problems faced across the world and put them in context to eachother. And we have realized that the neurotic consumption we have taken part in for the last hundred years will have to come to an end whether we like it or not. These times are different whether you choose to acknowledge it or not.
 
What are you 'working hard' to accomplish? Why not enjoy life and let others enjoy all the potential good it has to offer as well? You don't need to exploit other people (directly or indirectly) to be happy. If you do you are a sadist and could use counseling.

Take for example, this scenario...

There are two homesteads adjacent to eachother. Each has everything it needs to comfortably support those that inhabit them. In homestead A, the inhabitants spend their free time laughing and playing, making music and telling stories to eachother. In homestead B, the inhabitants spend their free time building weapons and testing them on the local wildlife to perfect their killing efficiency. Due to a lack of spending time laughing and playing, those in homestead B often become irritable and unhappy. They travel over to homestead A and demand their service at threat of death. They demand that those in homestead A work the crops in both gardens so that those in homestead B can devote more time to developing weapons, the ultimate completeion of which they feel might bring them some great happiness in the future.

Homestead B worked hard making their weapons to take advantage of homestead A. Should we feel good for homestead B an encourage them to feel good about themselves?

A society based on creating homstead Bs is sick and a plague on the earth. People that want to live in homestead As will learn that there are many more of them than those who wish for Bs. They will rise up and take back the life that could be theirs.
 
of course the world is a fucked up place.

people are fucked up dude and honestly we are living in prety much the best that has come out of it.

you have to be thankful for what we DO have though. you say we dont have freedom? what is freedom to you? you want to run off into the bush and live there? you have to sacrifce some freedom in order to have a civil society. the arguemtn about not being able to just go off on your own now is true. but back then if you did that anyone could killed you or harmed you in anyway they wanted.
 
What makes you think the way we are living now is the best the world has experienced? You think people are happier now? You think there is more love and caring in the world than there ever has been before? I disagree. There are some things that are better now, but there damn well should be. We've had longer to figure it out than anyone in the past did. Why stop and think this is the best we can do?

Say you were wrongly imprisoned for the rest of your life in maximum security. You have food and water, and a place to sleep. Should you really just feel thankful you only get raped a few times a month? Are you the guy thats glad there are people wrongly imprisoned so that you can exploit them and rape their virgin assholes? WTF

Freedom is the ability to live individually, how you choose. The freedom of an individual should never be sacrifced except in cases where it directly harms those around him. We don't even have the freedom to fucking consume plants that we can grow from the Earth ourselves. We don't have the freedom to sleep in a field without paying taxes that are used to kill people on the other side of the planet. What kind of fucked up notion of freedom are you suggesting that we have? We have the freedom to pray to any god, budda, or spagetti monster that we choose, and we have the freedom to choose the type of wage-slavery that we will submit ourselves to.
 
dude you just have the best interests of the world at heart huh?

just so you know, your example has absolutely nothing to do with what i say. Did i ever say i was making weapons and testing them on animals. No. What i was trying to say is that if people want money or a better life in this country, get a fucking job and stop free loading. Why on EARTH should i be required to give my money to someone who cant get their act together and find a job, after all, it's my money, I worked hard to earn it, they didnt, so therefore I should naturally be able to keep and use my own money when and how i please. If these people are laughing and making music, good for them, if thats all they want to do fine. If they are too busy laughing and making music to get a job, good for them too. Im not going to give them my money because they are too lazy or too content without a job, so they can deal with it because I dont have to or dont want to. Its the same with a lot of people today, using handouts from the public and the government to buy more drugs or alcohol. If they use money that the public has been so thoughtful in giving to them on drugs and booze, then shame on them. They are a waste of life if they dont want to clean themselves up. A waste of space and life.
 
If I may be so bold as to quote with another picture, I expect this post to turn out fairly long.

portrait.jpg


^I brought it up with you in respect your post in the Communist Vs. Nazi thread. This is Jean Jacques Rousseau, philosopher and one of the idealists whos theories were largely drawn upon for the French Revolution which was as you should know the first emergence of the Democratic nation state as we know it in the modern world. Given your concerns i think you should read Dicsourse on the origins of Inequality. Its a particularly interesting view of how he sees the emergence of inequality among societies.

In case you missed it in the other thread I'm going to draw upon his argument to contrast yours.

You assert that it is a combination of modern day consumerism, the 'wage chain' which binds us and the lack of empathy for the suffering of humanity (often caused by our indirect actions) which leads to the sad state of the world we're in.

You also argue that freedom is the ability to make any choice free of reliance upon anyone else. Rousseau agrees. In his view Freedom is the complete elimination of dependancy upon others; or the right to complete self-sufficiency. Why then does there exist such a gross inequality among people?

Examine first the nature of freedom on a contemporary society. Based on the premise that freedom is the right to complete self-sufficiancy (not Selfishness) We excericise that freedom in a modern society by engaging in economic exchange. You buy your food and it is of value to both you and the shop keepers and the people whom he pays. You argue agaisnt consumerism but in truth it is that exact consumerism which makes you free.

OK so if wer'e all so free why the inequality? Its an inescapable fact of life that many jobs are valued more highly then others. In the days when we were ourselves natives living around a camp fire, gathering for only ourselves and our family, enjoying COMPLETE self-sufficiency you can argue that we enjoyed true and honest freedom. The only hitch with that is exactly the fact that we were natives living around the camp fire. In order to have the luxuries which we ourselves enjoy today we had to excericise a multitude of tasks to get to where we are. You're right in asserting that the janitor or the garbage man is equally as important as the lawyer or the politician. However They are only so important as in society needs them both to operate. The amount of education and work, or Human Capital put into beign a lawyer or politician is much much more labour intensive, and though the janitor and garbage man's roles are important, we entrust much more to the lawyer and politician because they are trained to handle situations whose consequesnces are potentialy far more devestating to a society as a whole in error then say if a janitor screws up. They are high stress jobs that involve much education, therefore we pay them as such.

Which brings us to your final point

Why the world sucks. Im afraid to say if I was as sure on this answer as I was on your other two issues well then I suppose we'd have peace in the world. The short answer life is shit, the long answer is we can point our fingers at who and whatever we like but it's MY opinion that the world has a way of sorting itself out. In our current state your 100% correct in asserting that multinational corporations are benefitting grossly off the interest debt and suffering of underdeveloped countries and that our economic infrastructure and well being is based far too much off of the sweat of others. However that is an issue of Macro economics and foreign policy, not the nature of economic freedom and consumerism. Consumerism in its truest sense IS our freedom in the modern world. Its only how government and corporations manipulate that for profit from other nations which is the essence of world poverty.

I suppose my point is that in order to form proper judgement don't criticize society and consumerism, since consumerism itself is what safeguards your freedom. Criticize the overabuse of power held by the over-rich minority and how they profit from our freedom by manipulating other nations.

If you wish to argue or discuss it with me in particular to a greater depth fire me some PM's Im interested in what you have to say.

Cheers

 
there is always going to be shittiness in the world, just with communism everyone is in that shitiness. If communism is such a good idea why has it never worked.
 
why don't you stop sitting around on your computer complaining about it, and actually do something about it if you care so goddamn much.
 
As to your first paragraph… OF COURSE we are living in the best the world has experienced right now but it all depends on how you look at life. In the last 100 years we have gained so much compared to what we had before. We can fly in planes all over the world and ski down whatever huge mountains whenever we want. We have so much more now (internet, planes, cars, everything) than anyone before us. Even 100 years ago it would have been impossible for someone to travel the way we can now and know all things we do now. Even as I type this I am communicating with people all over the world and sharing my thoughts… you don’t think that’s a major advantage? When are you suggesting people were better off in history? I know technology doesn’t equal happiness but happiness is completely subjective to anyone you ask. If you ask a petafile he'd be the happiest in a little boy’s anus. If you ask a hippie they would be most happy in nature and chillin out. If you ask me I'm most happy when I’m with friends and skiing as much as I can. Happiness to other people might mean harming you... so how do you make everyone happy? Again a world full of everyone being love and caring obviously would be ideal but it just isn’t possible right now. I think we are moving more towards everyone being more understanding and that’s where the world needs to go.

I don’t understand what point you are trying to make with the prison scenario.

I know we don’t have complete freedom of our lives... I wasn’t saying that. All I'm saying is that the society we live in is pretty much the best of what civil society has to offer in terms of freedom. I would argue that you do even have the choice to sleep in a field and not pay taxes if you so choose. Just because the taxes don’t go to everything YOU want them to doesn’t mean they aren’t necessary and how would you suggest taxation should work then? Everyone chooses what taxes they pay? I have a feeling that wouldn’t work. If you are so concerned about your freedoms why don’t you move somewhere else in the world that doesn’t restrict them as much? I'd be curious were you would go.
 
jesus christ I am a fan of hippies, but that was way to fucking liberal even for me. first of all I would like to tell you to grow the fuck up and understand what makes society work. Corporations are not all bad, in fact, they keep money moving in our society, and if money becomes stagnant, although the ammount of money a person has at any given time might not be to different, they will have less of a cashflow, they will make less and therefor have to spend way less. I am not saying corporations are all good either, fuck wallmart, they have lowered the standard of living for both american and chinese factory workers by making china compete byusing rediculously low prices.

Next I would like to address the whole issue of "breaking the chains". You say that we need to break the chains of the conventional job that we are supposed to have and all of that jazz. However, you also address the a lot of issues like using the planets natural recources, and the poor people in 3rd world countries. Guess how those problems have even the slightest glimmer of hope for being fixed, tons of work, really hard work too. You say that we should go back to the hunt and gather type of lifestyle. Have you seen africa lately? back thousands of years ago, it would work for a tribe of 100 living with miles and miles all to themselves, but not today.

And finally, about the federal government taking your money away with taxes. Dont you get that without taxes, that gap between the rich and poor would grow tenfold? Taxes are what put kids in school, build homeless shelters, keep police on the streets, support the red cross and peace corps, along with the fact that every cent that our country has used to support other countries has come from taxes.

The fact of the matter that all of your suggestions completley contradict the problems you are complaining about. If you want to fix them, it will take your hard work, your money, and your time. And if you hate the technology and modern world so much go become Amish.
 
The whole idea of this entire thread seems way above your head. He's not talking about just america, he's talking about the entire world.

America and other 1st world nations are completly exploiting 3rd world nations. Do you think you work harder than people in africa. If you do then you have no idea what you're talking about.

He's not talking about you as a person he's talking about society, America builds weapons to exploit other nations. You're not sitting in your basement at night building weapons to go threaten your next door neighbor

and why should society require that we have to work 40 hours a week just to be able to "be happy"?

I would go as far as to say that this is the single best thread ever created on newschoolers.com I feel very similairily to mr. threadmaker. Infact I was starting to doubt that there was anyone on this site who felt the same as me
 
I have some understanding of what makes society work. I argue that it isn't any type of society we should have an interest in helping to work. You claim corporations are not bad because they move money? Of course they move money. They encourage over-consumption so that they have somewhere to ship their over-production. Thats a good thing?

So many jobs are required only to help keep this massively unnecessary production running at full speed. Those jobs are not helping poor people or limiting our use of resources. How is that a contridiction? The jobs are creating a demand for resources, the extraction of which destroys the ability of people to live simply if they wish, focing them to work in more menial jobs for wages to buy food they can no longer produce themselves.

I said I would look toward hunter gather societies in how they were able to live sustainably on the earth for millions of years. I also noted that we have too many people now for everyone to do that. It doesn't mean you couldnt combine some of those principles with modern technologies we've developed.

On taxes, I note only that they make it impossible for people to get completely outside the system. I never said that in a better designed society there would not have to be some kind of input from the people (a contribution to keep basic services running). I merely feel the tax system in this country is fucked at the moment and anyone that argues it is not almost entirely wasted is fooling themselves.

I don't reject technology that actually has a benefit. Things like bikes, public transportation, the internet, vaccines, nuclear/wind/hydro power are awesome. Things like SUVs, bottled water, and all the worthless Hello Kitty consumer trash we could do without.

We need a state that can provide basic sevices to everyone, and it can still provide a modest incentive for innovative contributions (while not letting them consume as much as much as 50 men). Combine the aspects of communism and democracy that actually work. Don't reward someone because they've figured out that they can make televisions more efficiently if they hire 3rd world children to dig sulfer from the earth where their crops used to be.
 
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