"Pro Choice" is stupid as hell, and Democrats suck at arguing.
- Thread starter andreweckels
- Start date
Laurent.
Active member
Today, where a definition of the moment of death is required, doctors, coroners and the law (at least over here) turn to "brain death" or "biological death" to define a person as being clinically dead; people are considered dead when the electrical activity in their brain ceases.
The end of electrical activity indicates the end of consciousness. However, suspension of consciousness must be permanent. In this state however some patients maintain the ability to sustain circulation and respiration, control temperature, excrete wastes, heal wounds and fight infections but all hope of recovering human thought and personality is then gone.
Seeing as this is widely regard as the "end of life" for human beings. We can also consider the start of life as the start of a recognizable Electroencephalography(EEG) pattern from the fetus.
This is usually twenty four to twenty seven weeks after conception.
So when consciousness ceases, a living organism can be said to have died. The flaw you noted in this approach, however, is that there are many organisms which are alive but not conscious. (for example, single-celled organisms).
Therefore most scientist refer to the term 'brain-dead' when they declare a conscious being dead. And when considering non-conscious organisms death as the permanent cessation of all biological functions that sustain an organism.
The end of electrical activity indicates the end of consciousness. However, suspension of consciousness must be permanent. In this state however some patients maintain the ability to sustain circulation and respiration, control temperature, excrete wastes, heal wounds and fight infections but all hope of recovering human thought and personality is then gone.
Seeing as this is widely regard as the "end of life" for human beings. We can also consider the start of life as the start of a recognizable Electroencephalography(EEG) pattern from the fetus.
This is usually twenty four to twenty seven weeks after conception.
So when consciousness ceases, a living organism can be said to have died. The flaw you noted in this approach, however, is that there are many organisms which are alive but not conscious. (for example, single-celled organisms).
Therefore most scientist refer to the term 'brain-dead' when they declare a conscious being dead. And when considering non-conscious organisms death as the permanent cessation of all biological functions that sustain an organism.
henrytargett
Member
i love how a community of skiers turns out to be a hotbed for ethical debates
Flo_Rida_2016
Active member
This is the way i see it:
As soon as conception, those cells are no longer yours (the woman's). By constitution 50% of that conceived being is someone else's and, moreover, the whole is greater than the sum of its parts. That whole is something entirely different than being 50% yours (woman's) and 50% theirs (guys): It is its own cells.
Just as you feel no one has a right to tell you what to do with your body, what right do you have to tell that 50%you50%him100%itself being what to do? Its not yours.
Just because you bear the burden of carrying it, does not make it yours either. You will bear the burden of being a parent to a kid perhaps, but that kid is not "yours" as in you do not have an in rem property right to it.
Also I don't buy the bad parent argument. Who are you to say that the kid would rather be dead than be poor/abused?
At the end of the day, you consented for the sex, you bear the responsibility.
In cases of rape... that is a super tough issue and i havent thought about that enough.
As soon as conception, those cells are no longer yours (the woman's). By constitution 50% of that conceived being is someone else's and, moreover, the whole is greater than the sum of its parts. That whole is something entirely different than being 50% yours (woman's) and 50% theirs (guys): It is its own cells.
Just as you feel no one has a right to tell you what to do with your body, what right do you have to tell that 50%you50%him100%itself being what to do? Its not yours.
Just because you bear the burden of carrying it, does not make it yours either. You will bear the burden of being a parent to a kid perhaps, but that kid is not "yours" as in you do not have an in rem property right to it.
Also I don't buy the bad parent argument. Who are you to say that the kid would rather be dead than be poor/abused?
At the end of the day, you consented for the sex, you bear the responsibility.
In cases of rape... that is a super tough issue and i havent thought about that enough.
El_Barto.
Active member
Heads up to everybody, abortion has been legal in every state for over 30 years. You can get scraped as many times as you want, go for it.
To the argument that only women should get to decide is bullshit. Thats like if men and service members were the only people allowed to make decisions when it comes to war. I mean, it doesnt affect you women...you didnt have to register for the draft like I did.
To the argument that only women should get to decide is bullshit. Thats like if men and service members were the only people allowed to make decisions when it comes to war. I mean, it doesnt affect you women...you didnt have to register for the draft like I did.
Ac31stuff
Member
if a month old fetus is a human life then every time a girl has a peroid thats murder and every time a sperm dies or is wacked out thats murder. plus if someone never makes consus thought they are not someone. thats like saying every time somebody decides not to have kids they are committing murder.
Flo_Rida_2016
Active member
no because periods are only eggs and wacking is only sperm. aka you are killing your own cells
when u have an abortion, the sperm has already combined with the egg making the combo neither yours his or anyones. aka you are killing not only a sperm cell that is not yours and you have consented to having inside you--or at least knew of the risk00(this is excluding rape) as well as the whole which is something else entirely.
when u have an abortion, the sperm has already combined with the egg making the combo neither yours his or anyones. aka you are killing not only a sperm cell that is not yours and you have consented to having inside you--or at least knew of the risk00(this is excluding rape) as well as the whole which is something else entirely.
klayer_9
Active member
Valid point. I'm going to start calling myself Pro-Liberty. But honestly fuck social issuesabortion/gay marriage/ ect shit should have been solved in the 70s. we have bigger fucking fish to fry these days and social issues continue to crete impasses between politcal parties.
FightClub27
Member
so you are comparing a unborn baby an insect? thats low man. No, i dont think twice because THEY ARE NOT GOING TO TURN INTO A HUMAN! now we are just getting into animal rights which is a whole other subject.
Its estimated that ~70% of fertilized eggs do not result in live
births. This includes implantation failure, early pregnancy loss, and
clinical miscarriages
(http://humupd.oxfordjournals.org/content/8/4/333.full.pdf+html). Conception is only one of many steps in becoming a human.
births. This includes implantation failure, early pregnancy loss, and
clinical miscarriages
(http://humupd.oxfordjournals.org/content/8/4/333.full.pdf+html). Conception is only one of many steps in becoming a human.
Flo_Rida_2016
Active member
100% of people die. doesn't mean i can kill you.
mmallender.
Active member
doesnt mean you cant?
i very well could be on my way to your house with a gun as could anyone..?
*note: I am not actually on my way to your house to kill you, that would be rude and inconsiderate. besides, it would have ruined the surprise.*
i very well could be on my way to your house with a gun as could anyone..?
*note: I am not actually on my way to your house to kill you, that would be rude and inconsiderate. besides, it would have ruined the surprise.*
Flo_Rida_2016
Active member
*doesnt mean its legal for me to kill you
just because 70% of conceptions end in death, doesn't mean you should be able to legally kill it.
inevitability of death does not justify intentional termination hence, "100% of people die. doesn't mean I can kill you."
Anyway, the real point is, that concepted baby, as soon as its cells double, IS NEITHER THE FATHER NOR THE MOTHER'S DNA. It is its own, newly created combination of DNA that shares input from another (another apart from the mother) and that is what I think the mother has no right to terminate. It's inside her body, but its not her body anymore. And she consented to the risk of it being there, so the argument that she should be able to evict whatever she wants from her body is far less compelling (again not talking about rape)
just because 70% of conceptions end in death, doesn't mean you should be able to legally kill it.
inevitability of death does not justify intentional termination hence, "100% of people die. doesn't mean I can kill you."
Anyway, the real point is, that concepted baby, as soon as its cells double, IS NEITHER THE FATHER NOR THE MOTHER'S DNA. It is its own, newly created combination of DNA that shares input from another (another apart from the mother) and that is what I think the mother has no right to terminate. It's inside her body, but its not her body anymore. And she consented to the risk of it being there, so the argument that she should be able to evict whatever she wants from her body is far less compelling (again not talking about rape)
Flo_Rida_2016
Active member
we are not discussing regulation of your discharge of your own eggs. We are discussing regulation of the discharge of the combined and grown, independent DNA of the combination between your egg and your partners sperm.
Just as you think republicans have no right to tell you what to do with your body, you have no right to tell what that unique DNA combo what to do with its body. even if it is living inside you because you at least consented to the risk of it being there (not talking about cases of rape here). Even if you did not consent one can make the argument that you do not have the right to evict with deadly force as you do not have that right with your house. But that ones a stretch.
Just as you think republicans have no right to tell you what to do with your body, you have no right to tell what that unique DNA combo what to do with its body. even if it is living inside you because you at least consented to the risk of it being there (not talking about cases of rape here). Even if you did not consent one can make the argument that you do not have the right to evict with deadly force as you do not have that right with your house. But that ones a stretch.
SpookyCat
Active member
You people are seriously fucked up. So what you're saying is that once a male cums inside a women, excluding the population of woman who were raped, used a broken condom, lied to by said male partner that they were using a condom, that their body is no longer theirs and is now property of the government's... which is what this legislature is.
So that goes along with the republican platform that calls for less government regulations how? To me that seems to be the exact and extremely disturbing, opposite of what the platform supports. Please enlighten me with your logic on this matter.
So that goes along with the republican platform that calls for less government regulations how? To me that seems to be the exact and extremely disturbing, opposite of what the platform supports. Please enlighten me with your logic on this matter.
binturong-qwerty
Active member
This is a rare occasion in which I agree with AR6rider. It has not developed a nervous system and a brain is not formed and therefore cannot feel pain.
vandersteeze
Active member
People who are pro life should be pro life in all regards, ending all half baked wars (in my opinion every single one since WWII)
vandersteeze
Active member
Retarded choice of word
*not supporting
*not supporting
Bodhisattva_
Active member
Didn't read any posts in the thread but I'm assuming it is just an abortion shitstorm. And to the OP, "pro life" is the stupid term. It implies that you are for saving a life rather than killing it. The opposite would be "pro death", so the democrats by calling it a choice rather than "pro death of a fetus" are avoiding the trap of the "pro life" slogan.
mmallender.
Active member
makes way more sense hahahaha
on another note. what youre saying suggests that the cells, which at this point are just cells, have human rights. those cells have not yet formed a living being, and up until those cells have, they do not share the same rights and therefore the mother should have the right to choose whether or not she wants to birth the child.
at this point it gets very philosophical in my opinion, and comes down to a hypothetical what-if, the same way that you COULD have a relationship with some model if you had the chance, where you COULD have won who wants to be a millionaire, or the price is right, or the superball had you been given the chance, or bought a ticket, or whatever.
in my opinion, it comes down to hypothesizing the possibility of what COULD have been, but if you dont make it past the first date, you dont get to go on that game show, you dont buy a ticket, there is no what if. if you abort the cells/life/what could be life before it comes to fruition, it remains the possibility of a life that cannot be anything more than something to be hypothesized about.
on another note. what youre saying suggests that the cells, which at this point are just cells, have human rights. those cells have not yet formed a living being, and up until those cells have, they do not share the same rights and therefore the mother should have the right to choose whether or not she wants to birth the child.
at this point it gets very philosophical in my opinion, and comes down to a hypothetical what-if, the same way that you COULD have a relationship with some model if you had the chance, where you COULD have won who wants to be a millionaire, or the price is right, or the superball had you been given the chance, or bought a ticket, or whatever.
in my opinion, it comes down to hypothesizing the possibility of what COULD have been, but if you dont make it past the first date, you dont get to go on that game show, you dont buy a ticket, there is no what if. if you abort the cells/life/what could be life before it comes to fruition, it remains the possibility of a life that cannot be anything more than something to be hypothesized about.
californiagrown
Active member
you just made every intelligent pro-lifer slap their forehead ridiculously hard.
Darth_Veeder
Active member
People's rhetoric in this thread (especially this kids) points to how people perceive WOMEN and their rights. Your use of terms like "girl" points to how you perceive them to be underdeveloped, and incapable of being able to make a fully informed decision. Even if you dont explicitly mean it like that, it reinforces a patriarchal mindset that allows men to be making choices on behalf of women.
Also, this fucking post hahahahahahaha. You don't think that people are concerned with the women's body? That is a major concern during every pregnancy, and the way you underplay this is appalling.
As a man, I don't have the right to choose something like this for a woman, and as a boy, you certainly dont either.
Also, this fucking post hahahahahahaha. You don't think that people are concerned with the women's body? That is a major concern during every pregnancy, and the way you underplay this is appalling.
As a man, I don't have the right to choose something like this for a woman, and as a boy, you certainly dont either.
Bodhisattva_
Active member
OP did you expect this thread to turn into anything other than a pro choice v. pro life shit storm?
Darth.Maul
Active member
Im Pro-Choice and Anti-Abortion. I believe that when it does come down to it, the government should have no say in what a woman does with her body. The government doesn't have a right to control the female reproductive organs and they never should have that right. That being said, I'm against girls who can't learn a fucking lesson and who abort 3,4 or more babies. Thats just fucked up and those girls should be made sterile because they can't learn their fucking lesson. I also believe that abortion is okay in cases of rape, incest, life of mom at risk, etc. Those are messed up situations that for the most part are uncontrollable for the woman. (Except for life of the mother) But I don't think that just because you got pregnant, you should jump immediately to abortion. Look at the options and try to figure out a way without jumping to abortion right when you find out your pregnant. You made the choice to get fucked and either not make him use a condom or your not on birth control. So man up and deal with the consequences of your decisions.
I guess i'm in the middle on this one. I'm pro life and pro choice depending on the situation of the pregnancy.
I guess i'm in the middle on this one. I'm pro life and pro choice depending on the situation of the pregnancy.
maxwell666
Member
wana know what else has human dna in a persons body? cancerous tumors.
1. you said not to compare an insect to a fetus because the insect wont turn into a living human being then refute the argument that most fetusus will not turn into human beings. hypocrite.
2. if its the potential to develop into a concious human being and not the development of a concious brain that determines whether its murder or not, than all contraceptive methods would be considered killing, you are forcefully preventing the development of the egg that clearly has the potential to develop into a living breathing thinking person. And you already said that the % chance of actually making it to that point is irrelevant as long as that possibility exists
3. You know little about the specifics of biology.
4.the egg is a single cell and does not divide to form new cells for more than a day.
5. birth control and morning after pills can prevent fertilized eggs from implanting, by your reasoning that an egg becomes a person if it becomes fertilized, female birth control is killing a human being.
5. if its ownership of the dna that you are are worried about, then have both parents decide together. also, read the top of this post, cancerous tumors have human dna that doesnt match yours within them, better let them stay.
1. you said not to compare an insect to a fetus because the insect wont turn into a living human being then refute the argument that most fetusus will not turn into human beings. hypocrite.
2. if its the potential to develop into a concious human being and not the development of a concious brain that determines whether its murder or not, than all contraceptive methods would be considered killing, you are forcefully preventing the development of the egg that clearly has the potential to develop into a living breathing thinking person. And you already said that the % chance of actually making it to that point is irrelevant as long as that possibility exists
3. You know little about the specifics of biology.
4.the egg is a single cell and does not divide to form new cells for more than a day.
5. birth control and morning after pills can prevent fertilized eggs from implanting, by your reasoning that an egg becomes a person if it becomes fertilized, female birth control is killing a human being.
5. if its ownership of the dna that you are are worried about, then have both parents decide together. also, read the top of this post, cancerous tumors have human dna that doesnt match yours within them, better let them stay.
At the age of 27, I know SO MANY women that have had abortions. It's actually surprising to me. At first I thought surely my friends couldn't all be so stupid.
Then after many conversations... condoms were used, birth control was used, alcohol wasn't always involved.
Hell, even I've had a pregnancy scare. The older you get, the more common it gets. After a heartfelt conversation with my dad one night, he told me that he had had an abortion with his first girlfriend. If they hadn't, I wouldn't exist. It goes both ways. One life for another, there are too many "what ifs" for that to be a factor.
That being said, every relationship I've been in, the abortion thing has pretty much always come up. It's usually very casual and a half joke when searching for a condom. Except I was very seriously confronted by a man who said if I got pregnant I was absolutely having it. I told him that he couldn't be the deciding factor unless he wanted to raise the child 100% on his own and pay for all my medical expenses and food and missed work and anything else that I would be missing. I also informed him I would be drinking alcohol through the entire pregnancy. He then understood, but we still broke up.
I have not had an abortion, at this state in my life, I'm not really sure if I would or not. It would depend more on the man at this point. But in no way do I want a child right now.
Then after many conversations... condoms were used, birth control was used, alcohol wasn't always involved.
Hell, even I've had a pregnancy scare. The older you get, the more common it gets. After a heartfelt conversation with my dad one night, he told me that he had had an abortion with his first girlfriend. If they hadn't, I wouldn't exist. It goes both ways. One life for another, there are too many "what ifs" for that to be a factor.
That being said, every relationship I've been in, the abortion thing has pretty much always come up. It's usually very casual and a half joke when searching for a condom. Except I was very seriously confronted by a man who said if I got pregnant I was absolutely having it. I told him that he couldn't be the deciding factor unless he wanted to raise the child 100% on his own and pay for all my medical expenses and food and missed work and anything else that I would be missing. I also informed him I would be drinking alcohol through the entire pregnancy. He then understood, but we still broke up.
I have not had an abortion, at this state in my life, I'm not really sure if I would or not. It would depend more on the man at this point. But in no way do I want a child right now.
*laughterbang*
Member
Conservative logic 102
shreddenator
Member
Wow....okay let's put aside the sack of cells versus human debate for a moment. There are two basic reasons why the government should not intercede here.... Firstly, Government legislation should never exhude control over an individuals body...it goes against ideals of freedom and democracy that American hold so dear.... especially when the arguments for and against are fundamentally in the arena of religion and personal beliefs.... Secondly, I think it is safe to say that unwanted pregnancies have occurred since we began reproducing and many women have resorted to dangerous means to end their pregnancies (more recently in Ireland this was a big problem). We can't live in denial about a potential increase in at home methods of abortion... it still happens and even sometimes it is unsuccessful and the baby is born with horrific complications often dies after birth. It would be much better to have this done in a safe environment under professional care, cause the alternative is lunacy
little_boo
Active member
Yuss!! Thank you.
applejuice.
Active member
Stopppppppp! Seriously wtf? I'm 23 years old and pro life because I CHOSE TO BE! My father actually disagrees with my stance because I'm against it in all cases. That being said, do I hate women who get them? No, it's their choice and that's a personal decision that should not be influenced by anyone. I don't judge, even if I don't agree. God, people makes me so frustrated its not even funny. To criticize all Conservatives or Christians is so damn rude. People are allowed to have different opinions and views, just because you don't agree doesn't mean they're wrong or "illogical."
everyone
Member
probably because a baby/fetus in a womb doesn't have any way to make a decision.
personally i am pro-life in terms of myself knocking up a chick, but i don't give a single actual flying fuck if someone else wants to abort a baby cause by rape or what have you.
if it's a legitimate baby, i will definitely disapprove of killing it but it's not my business to step in.
personally i am pro-life in terms of myself knocking up a chick, but i don't give a single actual flying fuck if someone else wants to abort a baby cause by rape or what have you.
if it's a legitimate baby, i will definitely disapprove of killing it but it's not my business to step in.
SpookyCat
Active member
And this is the logic of the people who want the government to control the chemical processes in your body...
You do know that it is BOTH the mother and father's DNA, it is theirs. It is not yours, or the old fucks on capital hill. There is no scientific data that supports that at conception that their is a conscious being existing. As humans we don't understand everything so we have to use things like science and logical thought to make the best decisions possible, which is how we now ended up with the cut-off time for when you can have an abortion. Before that point the fetus doesn't ration, it doesn't feel pain and it doesn't need protection from some hypocrites who would get an abortion in a heartbeat if it risked their political ambitions.
Saying a fetus that doesn't have a developed brain is human is equivalent to saying that someone's severed hand is now its own person.
Whether you believe in pro life or pro choice is your PERSONAL BELIEF and should not be forced upon other people. "God" has no place in politics and it never should.
You do know that it is BOTH the mother and father's DNA, it is theirs. It is not yours, or the old fucks on capital hill. There is no scientific data that supports that at conception that their is a conscious being existing. As humans we don't understand everything so we have to use things like science and logical thought to make the best decisions possible, which is how we now ended up with the cut-off time for when you can have an abortion. Before that point the fetus doesn't ration, it doesn't feel pain and it doesn't need protection from some hypocrites who would get an abortion in a heartbeat if it risked their political ambitions.
Saying a fetus that doesn't have a developed brain is human is equivalent to saying that someone's severed hand is now its own person.
Whether you believe in pro life or pro choice is your PERSONAL BELIEF and should not be forced upon other people. "God" has no place in politics and it never should.
applejuice.
Active member
I don't think it should be illegal because then it would compromise the health of many women who decide to get back alley abortions. I do not support infanticide and I certainly do not support any woman who has a late term abortion because that is so wrong and disgusting. I have friends who've had abortions for their own personal reasons and as a Christian who am I to judge? That is God's decision. I'm not going to protest or blow up a clinic, however I do hope to participate in the March for Life in the future.
Zimmerman
Active member
Yay! Finally a "pro life" Christian who gets it! I fully respect your religious view even though I disagree with some of it (if not most) and I'm really happy you don't want it to affect law since that would compromise free will. "If you don't like abortion, don't get one."
You seem to have a pretty good hold on Christianity too. The only thing I don't get is why you'd attend a march for life, which is out to influence legislation. I'm nonreligious and pro-choice but You're the type that I like (other than the MFL thing).
You seem to have a pretty good hold on Christianity too. The only thing I don't get is why you'd attend a march for life, which is out to influence legislation. I'm nonreligious and pro-choice but You're the type that I like (other than the MFL thing).