POLL: OVERLAP OR CABRIO BOOTS
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KungKalmar
Active member
Is there actually any difference in performance between 2 and 3 piece boots?
SWRTOFFICIAL
Active member
Are you fulltilt or non fulltilt
tomPietrowski
Active member
14560923:JalmarKalmar said:
Interesting question. They both have unique ways they flex and feel skiing but it is possible to get equal performance. You will choose one over the other because you have a presence for how one flex’s for example but performance should be less of a consideration.
SeaUrchin123
Member
I've used both 2 & 3 piece boots and prefer 2s. Been using the Lange XT3 Free 130 LV for the past few seasons and am a big fan. Maybe it's a habit but I always use the Booster Strap over the stock velcro strap too, makes the fit in the shin feel better.
jumpman101
Member
Dalbello il moro very good fitting boot for my foot but could be different from others. See what the shop suggests.
Ben_Short
New member
Super interesting this threat pops up, I am also at this dilemma point, obviously going to my fitter, came from a racing background in my teens now 20s doing freeride and side hits as well as still carving.
Obviously, the best thing would be to test test test, online people say you can't carve as hard in 3 Piece Boots but a couple of guys I know patrollers still carv like machines with them so maybe only a small diff?
Obviously, the best thing would be to test test test, online people say you can't carve as hard in 3 Piece Boots but a couple of guys I know patrollers still carv like machines with them so maybe only a small diff?
onenerdykid
Active member
14560923:JalmarKalmar said:
At a certain point, most definitely. There's a reason why the high-performance boot world is dominated by 2-piece constructions (and ultimately why it is the only construction used in racing, but that's less important for almost everyone here). The Raichle Flexon (= Full Tilt Original) was originally a race boot - it was never developed or intended for freeskiing. But it was quickly surpassed by 2-piece boots and it couldn't keep up. It eventually faded away but was revitalized by Jason Levinthal in mid-2000s under the name Full Tilt (of which I personally consulted Jason on many times and even wore for a number of years). Major boot brands even tried 3-piece boots out for a bit. Nordica made 3-piece boots, called the Fire Arrow and Ace of Spades, but they didn't do the job as well as their 2-piece overlap boots and were eventually dropped from their lineup. More recently, about 7-8 years ago, Head tried bringing to market a 3-piece race boot, but it was a massive fail. Then they called it The Hammer and all of a sudden it became a "freeski" boot... It often seems that when a boot fails in racing/normal use, it gets rebranded as a freeski boot. The magic of marketing
But let's get back on track. Performance is necessarily linked to fit and a 2-piece boot wraps the foot much more efficiently and more effectively. When a boot wraps better, it fits you better, and when it fits you better, it performs better - and that means it does what you want when you want it to. That could be a high speed carve or it could be nose butter 3. 2-piece boots respond to your input more effectively because the fit of the shell & cuff better matches your anatomy. You will work less to get the ski to do what you want it to.
The flex characteristics of both types are quite different as well. A 2-piece boot is generally more progressive while a 3-piece boot tends to be more linear. Progressive means the boot starts out softer and gets stiffer the more you flex it. Linear means the boot starts with one feel and pretty much stays that way the more you flex it (no boot is truly linear in its flex pattern, they all get slightly stiffer when flexed, but the overall flex pattern is more linear in shape than a progressive ramp up). A progressive flex (when done properly) allows for smooth bump/chatter absorption in the initial portion of the flex curve but then can provide lots of power & energy deeper into the flex curve. This tends to be what higher performance skiers are searching for.
Eli.braun98
Member
14561131:onenerdykid said:At a certain point, most definitely. There's a reason why the high-performance boot world is dominated by 2-piece constructions (and ultimately why it is the only construction used in racing, but that's less important for almost everyone here). The Raichle Flexon (= Full Tilt Original) was originally a race boot - it was never developed or intended for freeskiing. But it was quickly surpassed by 2-piece boots and it couldn't keep up. It eventually faded away but was revitalized by Jason Levinthal in mid-2000s under the name Full Tilt (of which I personally consulted Jason on many times and even wore for a number of years). Major boot brands even tried 3-piece boots out for a bit. Nordica made 3-piece boots, called the Fire Arrow and Ace of Spades, but they didn't do the job as well as their 2-piece overlap boots and were eventually dropped from their lineup. More recently, about 7-8 years ago, Head tried bringing to market a 3-piece race boot, but it was a massive fail. Then they called it The Hammer and all of a sudden it became a "freeski" boot... It often seems that when a boot fails in racing/normal use, it gets rebranded as a freeski boot. The magic of marketing
But let's get back on track. Performance is necessarily linked to fit and a 2-piece boot wraps the foot much more efficiently and more effectively. When a boot wraps better, it fits you better, and when it fits you better, it performs better - and that means it does what you want when you want it to. That could be a high speed carve or it could be nose butter 3. 2-piece boots respond to your input more effectively because the fit of the shell & cuff better matches your anatomy. You will work less to get the ski to do what you want it to.
The flex characteristics of both types are quite different as well. A 2-piece boot is generally more progressive while a 3-piece boot tends to be more linear. Progressive means the boot starts out softer and gets stiffer the more you flex it. Linear means the boot starts with one feel and pretty much stays that way the more you flex it (no boot is truly linear in its flex pattern, they all get slightly stiffer when flexed, but the overall flex pattern is more linear in shape than a progressive ramp up). A progressive flex (when done properly) allows for smooth bump/chatter absorption in the initial portion of the flex curve but then can provide lots of power & energy deeper into the flex curve. This tends to be what higher performance skiers are searching for.
What is the advantage of a linear flex pattern and a softer boot?
onenerdykid
Active member
14561152:Eli.braun98 said:
In my opinion, nothing. I don't see what there is to gain by either.
A softer boot is not "better" for freeskiing or freestyle. This is one of the biggest myths in all of skiing. A boot that is softer than what you need requires you to work harder for every movement and every turn. And it isn't better for guarding against shinbang, in fact it's often worse for shinbang. The proper flex is the one that matches the forces you put into the boot. If you are a light, small person who isn't skiing fast/encountering objects at speed, then a soft-flexing boot is most likely going to be the right flex for you. Conversely, if you are a beginner but you are 6'6" and 250 lbs then you are going to need a rather stiff boot just to support your size. The correct flex is more a reflection of your size, your ankle mobility, and the forces you put into the boot while skiing.
tomPietrowski
Active member
14561152:Eli.braun98 said:
What our athletes tell us is its more consistent on landing and they can expect how an impact will feel better. Think of it like landing on your feet from a jump. You understand how your ankle will flex and your knees will take an impact. A 3 piece boot giving a linear flex is very similar to this. In comparison a 2 piece boot which is progressive will stiffen up the more you get into the flex which is less natural feeling (or so say many of our athletes say). Personally I appreciate a boot which stiffens as I get more into the flex as I don't need to work as hard but I'm also not a professional athlete
But yeah that is why so many freesytle athletes still seek out the 3 piece boots as the flex they offer just cant be achieved in an overlap boot. I would also say performance is not as simple as saying you cant get as high performance out of a 3 piece boot. Will they work for race these days, no, but who says race is the top of performance? I would instead say they can offer better performance in the areas they are most commonly used and 2 piece boots offer better performance in different areas of skiing. One is not better than the other they are just different and that is why we and a few other brands offer both in our boot collection.**This post was edited on Oct 31st 2023 at 2:14:02pm
Eli.braun98
Member
Last question: what is the disadvantage of a boot that's too stiff? I understand that it is more demanding but how would that negatively impact your skiing
Also, I'm on my high school race team and one of the best kids on the team skis on a pair of Fulltilt's
Also, I'm on my high school race team and one of the best kids on the team skis on a pair of Fulltilt's
onenerdykid
Active member
14561180:Eli.braun98 said:
When you try to flex a boot that is too stiff for you/your skiing, you will try to flex it, you won't be able to, and this causes you to fall backwards and be out of balance. Being in balance is important for every type of skiing there is.
Also, when a boot is too soft or too stiff for you, you can develop shinbang. When the boot is too soft, your shin takes all of the forces rather than the boot. When the boot is too stiff, your shin flexes over the top of the cuff. Both are bad.
Re: high school racing in FTs - Totally possible and it's a reflection of the gear being used and the forces being put on his gear. As you progress in racing and the gear requirements change (bumping up to proper FIS regulation spec skis, i.e. college racing) and the forces increase as the courses get steeper, faster, more demanding etc, then everything about his gear set up will need to better reflect the forces acting on him and the forces he puts into the equipment. Outside of high school racing, you won't see anyone on a 3-piece boot for that reason.
**This post was edited on Oct 31st 2023 at 2:51:21pm
tomPietrowski
Active member
14561180:Eli.braun98 said:
To Ski you need to be able to pressure and flex the ski, if the boots are too stiff you will not be able to flex into the boot which in turn will mean you can not flex the skis. I would say more people are actually in boots too stiff for them than they are in boots which are too soft. But going to stiff or too soft will be a problem and getting the flex of a boot correct is not as simple as going off your weight for example. The way your ankle flexes and leg length are big factors and this is why its so important to go to a good bootfitter who can asses all these elements and ensure you end up in a boot which will be appropriate for your individual needs.
a_pla5tic_bag
Active member
14561183:onenerdykid said:
One thing I find hard is that I'm small in weight and also foot size, 24.5. I ski aggressively on one of Redster S9s, JJs, or ON3P magnus. Problem is, 1. it's super hard to find boots in stores that are 24.5 plus, and 2. all the boots with the most premium features tend to be super stiff. I can ski as aggressively as I want, I'm simply not heavy enough to flex high end boots. It sucks, because I want nice boots, but they're all too stiff.
onenerdykid
Active member
14561238:a_pla5tic_bag said:
I wish more brands offered such boots and more stores carried them.
The nice thing is that the lower shell is the same between unisex and women's boots. If a shop isn't stocking the unisex boot in your size, try on the women's and then order the unisex.
Atomic makes all premium boots in unisex 24/24.5: Redster CS 110, Hawx Ultra 110 S, Hawx Prime 110 S, Hawx Magna 110 S. With that span of last shapes, you should be able to find a 24/24.5 that fits you, that you can flex properly and has really nice plastics & features.
captainslack
Member
14561189:tomPietrowski said:
Can you mitigate boots that are too stiff for you with leg strength training before a trip? I've still got my 130 boots from when I was skiing day in day out, but only get 2 weeks a year now and finding them too stiff.
tomPietrowski
Active member
14561242:captainslack said:
In your instance yes you should be ok as I presume the 130 used to work for you when you were skiing more. In that case 130 probably did work for your needs they just feel stiff now as you are not in the same shape. So yes you can find plenty of pre skiing workouts online to try to get ready. Also if you will not be skiing much moving forward it’s probably possible to get the lower shell and maybe cuff modified to permanently soften the boots which could be an option.
performance is not everything.
cabrio boots are more comfortable, which is good when you spend a whole day in the park, a lot of time just standing, etc. 2 piece boots feel terrible when you are not in ski racing position.
another thing is - softer cabrio boots actually make you feel better what is happening with the skis, the terrain and everything. All this response helps you when you want to slide around stuff, instead of putting your edge deep into the snow.
cabrio boots are more comfortable, which is good when you spend a whole day in the park, a lot of time just standing, etc. 2 piece boots feel terrible when you are not in ski racing position.
another thing is - softer cabrio boots actually make you feel better what is happening with the skis, the terrain and everything. All this response helps you when you want to slide around stuff, instead of putting your edge deep into the snow.
KungKalmar
Active member
14561351:snowpig said:
I think properly fitted overlap boots are as comfortable as 3 piece boots.
I ain't no expert but i thought that stiff boots are more responsive.
onenerdykid
Active member
14561351:snowpig said:
You know what other boot puts you in a racing position?
Hint:
But you bring up a good point - not everyone needs lots of forward lean. The proper solution is to develop a ski boot that has multiple forward lean settings so you can choose your own personal setting: more upright, neutral, or more forward. In each of our boot families (Redster, Hawx Ultra, Hawx Prime, Hawx Magna, Hawx Ultra XTD, Hawx Prime XTD) there are models that allow you to set the boot forward lean how you want.
Softer boots are simply less responsive and require you to work harder for every movement of the ski. This is not to say you need a cement block of a boot. You just need a flex that matches your weight, height, ankle range of motion, and the forces you put into the boot. From Chris Benchetler, Jossi Wells, Nicky Keefer, Bobby Brown, Megan Oldham, Eileen Gu, to the Real Skifi crew - there's not one skier on the freestyle side of our roster who wants anything softer than their proper flex.
14561370:JalmarKalmar said:
I spent a lot of time and money with a bootfitter customising my overlap boots and kept having significant issues with my navicular - the 2 piece creates a lot of pressure there when flexed. Then I just bought some cabrios online, inserted my insole and voila - no more pain
I am never going back to 2 piece. I would rather give up skiing ?And stiff boots are more powerful. But they don't give more feedback!!! It's like running with a hardsole shoe or running with super soft sole shoe - where do you feel the terrain better? The way a 3 piece flexes makes it feel softer and seems to allow more feedback, that's how i feel it.
14561372:onenerdykid said:
I am sure it works great for these guys, but there is zero things in common between me skiing and them skiing ?
For them performance is probably top priority. I am just out there to have fun.
That said, a couple of years ago I ended up in the same hotel with US freestyle ski team during a world cup comp. Lots of them were using 3 piece boots.
onenerdykid
Active member
14561495:snowpig said:I spent a lot of time and money with a bootfitter customising my overlap boots and kept having significant issues with my navicular - the 2 piece creates a lot of pressure there when flexed. Then I just bought some cabrios online, inserted my insole and voila - no more pain
And stiff boots are more powerful. But they don't give more feedback!!! It's like running with a hardsole shoe or running with super soft sole shoe - where do you feel the terrain better? The way a 3 piece flexes makes it feel softer and seems to allow more feedback, that's how i feel it.
This is another great point - comfort, to a large degree, is a result of the last shape working for your foot shape. Being a 3-piece or a 2-piece has nothing to do with it. If there was a 3-piece boot that had the exact same last shape as the 2-piece overlap that you struggled with, you'd have the same fit issues. You just happened to find the last shape that works for your foot, out of the box, which is awesome and very lucky.
And again, I'm not saying everyone needs the same flex or that everyone needs a 130. Eileen Gu and Megan Oldham are using 95 flex boots. For them, 95 isn't soft; it's their correct flex. This flex matches their weight, height, ankle ROM and the forces they are putting into the boot. It's not soft for them, it's the right flex. Everyone reading this is going to have an option that is the correct flex, followed by an option that is too soft for them and followed by an option that is too stiff for them. Going with the option that is softer than correct will cause you to work harder, put you at risk for more shinbang, and require your bones & joints to take the brunt of a landing rather than the boot itself.
tomPietrowski
Active member
14561714:onenerdykid said:
This is exactly right. So many people think they need boots far stiffer than they actually need. A softer boot does not mean its not as good it just means the skier does not need a stiff boot.
Wallisch, Taylor, Phil and Henrik all ride 100 flex boots. I think we can all agree they are some of the best but 100 flex which is often thought as beginner/intermediate is good for them. Sammy, Karl and Colby all ride 130 or 120 flexes which is again right for them. Its not that they are better skiers its just that either the way they ride or there build suits a stiffer flex.
14561815:tomPietrowski said:
But , as the examples show, what stiffness you "need" actually mostly comes down to your skiing style and preference, not to your weight and height. So what other word can we use to better describe this, instead of "need"? "Like". Henrik "likes" a softer boot.
onenerdykid
Active member
14561968:snowpig said:
It mostly comes down to physics. And since that flex works for him, he likes it. We have our preferences (to your point, we "like" a boot) because something works for us. And it works when we match the boot to our height, weight, ankle range of motion, and the forces acting upon the boot. Some of us get lucky and happen to find this recipe through luck, some of us have someone show us what will work for us.
Over the last 20 years, I've fit literally thousands of people for ski boots and I have yet to find someone whose preferences is not directly linked to what works for them based on their height, weight, ankle range of motion, and the forces they put on the boot.
animator
Active member
14561131:onenerdykid said:At a certain point, most definitely. There's a reason why the high-performance boot world is dominated by 2-piece constructions (and ultimately why it is the only construction used in racing, but that's less important for almost everyone here). The Raichle Flexon (= Full Tilt Original) was originally a race boot - it was never developed or intended for freeskiing. But it was quickly surpassed by 2-piece boots and it couldn't keep up. It eventually faded away but was revitalized by Jason Levinthal in mid-2000s under the name Full Tilt (of which I personally consulted Jason on many times and even wore for a number of years). Major boot brands even tried 3-piece boots out for a bit. Nordica made 3-piece boots, called the Fire Arrow and Ace of Spades, but they didn't do the job as well as their 2-piece overlap boots and were eventually dropped from their lineup. More recently, about 7-8 years ago, Head tried bringing to market a 3-piece race boot, but it was a massive fail. Then they called it The Hammer and all of a sudden it became a "freeski" boot... It often seems that when a boot fails in racing/normal use, it gets rebranded as a freeski boot. The magic of marketing
But let's get back on track. Performance is necessarily linked to fit and a 2-piece boot wraps the foot much more efficiently and more effectively. When a boot wraps better, it fits you better, and when it fits you better, it performs better - and that means it does what you want when you want it to. That could be a high speed carve or it could be nose butter 3. 2-piece boots respond to your input more effectively because the fit of the shell & cuff better matches your anatomy. You will work less to get the ski to do what you want it to.
The flex characteristics of both types are quite different as well. A 2-piece boot is generally more progressive while a 3-piece boot tends to be more linear. Progressive means the boot starts out softer and gets stiffer the more you flex it. Linear means the boot starts with one feel and pretty much stays that way the more you flex it (no boot is truly linear in its flex pattern, they all get slightly stiffer when flexed, but the overall flex pattern is more linear in shape than a progressive ramp up). A progressive flex (when done properly) allows for smooth bump/chatter absorption in the initial portion of the flex curve but then can provide lots of power & energy deeper into the flex curve. This tends to be what higher performance skiers are searching for.
The Ace of Spades was so sick, always wanted one when I was growing up
tomPietrowski
Active member
14561968:snowpig said:
It really comes down to a combo of both. Wallisch, Henrik and Colby are great examples. Tom and Henrik are both pretty small guys, they are strong and obviously ski amazingly but they are not that tall and don't weigh that much. Colby in comparison is much taller and probably has 20-25lbs on Tom and Henrik. Its those differences that play a roll in why Colby is skiing a 120 compared to the 100 which works for Tom and Henrik. All 3 probably get the same "feel" from the boots its just Colby needs the boot to be stiffer to begin with to get that same flex as Tom does from a 100.
