Marxists

waterville_NH

waterville_NH

Active member
hey guys, i don't really want this to turn into an argument. i was just wondering if there are any other marxists on newschoolers.

i know there will be some people that want to argue their point about how communism will never work, but let me say this before you waste the time typing. I have heard it all before, and I'm not going to argue it on the internet.
 
seriously guys, russian history comin down to the wire here, pay attention...

no capitalism is better (IMO, i gonna sound like such a dork) because if everyone gets the same, the will to excel is gone, and there is no competition to force you to strive for your best. People who are lazy get the same payment as people who are doctors, or other advanced jobs...
 
k ya well capitalism is better than marxism, capitalism however isn't an extreme while marxism is. Say if we where to compare Marxism and Facism I think Marxism would be better. If you where to compare socialism and capitalism I personaly think socialism is better. Sweden and Norway are both socialist countries and they have the highest average quality of life of any countries in the world. Life shouldn't be so competitive, 10% of a population shouldn't contain 90% of the welth
 
Socialism is a good compromise between full blown right wing Capitalism and Communism. It suits me down to the ground in a kind of ideal world kind of way. Unfortunately there's still a big class difference in Britain where I live so it'd never happen.
 
I hate to bring religion into this, but you gotta consider the middle path. America is where its at because its not 100% capitalism; It has some socialist qualities to it. Personally, I think we need more socialist policies (like Canada). We need to try and get the best of both worlds.
 
pure marxism...as in the economic theory...is nothing like the Soviet Russia or Communist China we know. i dont support communism or Marxism...however, Marx had relevant ideology that IN THEORY would have worked. in a real life situation, the human need to excel and compete renders communism completely ineffective.
 
^ i pretty much agree with what is said there, that theoreticaly marxism is great, practicaly it leads to what we commonly think of as communism.

are you going to post your thoughts and arguments for marxism?
 
yes, the communist manifesto was written between karl marx, and another person, (forgot his name) and it was a description to an alternative form of government...

but of course the marxists know a lot more, it's pretty complicated...

anyway i'm not a marxist, but hey, it's cool
 
marxism is a utopian belief, as mentioned above. Capitolism definetley has its downfalls, so i think a regulated capitolist society, or utilitariansim, is the best form of government. Another problem with marxism, or at least my interpretation of it, is that i calls for a violent revolution of the proletariat. times of political urest and choas like this normally turn into a violent and abrasive government, and genocide and warfare often ensues. in theaory though, marxism is appealing.
 
i belive that socailism is the best governmental for out there right now, but i really wish that anarchy could wokr
 
i havent really decided yet. there are good points and bad points in all of them. one reason capitalism works is because it is basically based on greed, and greed is so ingrained in humans that it drives capitalism to the top (usually)
 
Communism would be great however with absolutly no motivation to work, people won't. Then you have to start working at gun point and that's no fun
 
well my statement is this. I know communism has not worked in the past, but i feel as though someday society will become so advanced that capitalism will fail, and something very similar to marxist theory will ensue. i believe in marx because i cannot stand such a separation of classes, it makes me sick.
 
this is not the indian caste system. People can improve their economic status. It is not impossible. Oh and how would society be too advanced for capitalism. Will people suddenly decide that they do not like money anymore?
 
When marx wrote his manifesto factory workers were under horrible conditions and thats why he wanted them to overturn the government. but yeah russia failed but chinas doing alright
 
yeah marxism would never work, when he wrote the communist manifesto he wrote it to better the working conditions. At the time it seemed like a good idea but he never took into account how much power collective bargaining has. By striking etc, workers improved their conditions without a violent revolution.
 
what is nessisary is a minimum decent standard of living for all people, a society that is socialist up to the point of providing for all its people with the basic needs, food, water, shelter, education, medicine, etc. you establish a minimum decent standard which justifies taking money from the rich and giving it to the poor and needy.

but there does not have to be a limit on how prosperous one can be, nor is it justifiable to take from one man to provide luxories for another. Providing for the basics to a minimally decent life is justifiable in that you say every human has a right to live, and to live beyond simply surving, they aught to be able to participate activly within society. Beyond providing for this right, you implicate stealing which is wrong.
 
marxism commits the fatal flaw of not realizing the true nature of men, which is why it's had such a bad track record.

everyone doesn't look out for everyone. the whole idea is based on some utopia that does not exist in reality.

capitalism lets the greedy be greedy, and the altruistic be altruistic.
 
America stands for freedom, and Capitalism represents that freedom, while Communism and Marxism is government controlled.
 
In my opinion, Communism would never work but Capitalism is a bunch of crap too. The thing I hate is how ones class makes up the type of person they are. To me, there is no difference between a commanding officer in the military and a janitor. I'm not saying they are equal, but one should not be considered superior to the other just because of his job.

Also, I think the U.S. needs to stop being so stuck up and spreading lies that make it sound like we are the only free country in the world. Other countries are in fact more free tha us, considering the rights we are giving to gays and how racism is still a big factor in this country.

To me, the type of government that would work the best is some type libro-communsim (liberism). People would still be different and have strides to acheive their goals, but people would not be judged on their class or occupation, but more on the type of person they really are.
 
sounds like we have a lot of socialists...which i am ok with...the thing someone said about raising the minimum standard of living, i completely agree with.
 
absolute capitalism does not stand for freedom becaues it does nothing to protect others freedoms from being infringed upon by ones own persuit of capital gain, just as government controlled society is freedom limiting, inidvidiuals who are free to own and sell as they see fit limit the freedoms of others within the same society.

Under capitalism it would be ok for one person to hold all the wealth while everyone else suffered. would those without money be consitered free? I don't believe so
 
Exactly...have you realized the people that succeed are the arrogant bastards that only care about themselves? The people that care about those around them are the ones that get the jobs generally looked down upon in society...that is what is really bullshit!!

For example, I have a friend that is a volunteer in Africa. This person devots their life to helping those around him- a selfless act indeed. Recently, that person got sick and requested to come back home to the states. Funny thing is he had a lot of trouble finding a way. Even though he helped so many people, no one was willing to help. But if some selfish rich man got sick on a business trip were he was going to fuck over more innocent people, hed get the first flight home.
 
I'm not a Marxist, I think capitalism is working very well right now and communism is responsible for too many deaths to be seen as a valid economic practice. I don't really wanna type a bunch so I'll leave it at that.
 
We meet in underground parking lots

And late night in coffee shops

With voices low unless we’re drunk

We've got hats and cupped sunglasses

We question all that is wrong

We discuss conspiracy

Are we enemies of the state?

Or idealist bourgeoisie?

I’ll get this one, put it on my card

I get frequent flyer mileage

And a booklet of upgrades

So next time I visit the third world

I won’t have to fly second class

The people's revolution is gonna be a podcast

We took the bus to the anarchist book fair

I left the hybrid at home

I scored an extremely rare signed copy of the communist manifesto

We protested the G8, got maced by female police

In hot black uniforms and boots

I got one’s e-mail address

Still I’m waiting to see if my bid on eBay was enough

To get "Today’s Empires Are Tomorrow’s Ashes" on soviet red vinyl

It’s going on the wall next to "Tubthumper" and "The Battle Of Los Angeles"

Of Los Angeles

 
first off if you look at capitalism and communism (socialism) they're ECONOMIC systems, not political systems per se.

you rarely find either practiced to the extreme, even in China where it is working, it is not pure communism, there is still individual ownership and initiative at the bottom. where as in the US most businesses and such are privately owned, but certain ones ARE operated by the govt. such as the USPS.

as for capitalism and rights, the idea is that the people who succeed are the ones who work harder, now i realize that it doesn't work perfectly, some people are born to wealthy parents, and take for granted the wealth that their PARENTS or Grandparents earned.

----------------------------------------------------------

here's how one of my social studies teachers described communism however

you have two farms producing the same crop for the national distribution or whatever. both farms have three large silos.

one group works their asses off making as much as they can, at times they may be working 10 hour days and such. they eventually have a large surplus

the other farm however does very little, the workers slack off, sleep till noon, then work until 5 pm. they barely have enough to fill one silo.

the surplus from Farm A will be used to fill Farm B's silos, they will then sell their product at the same rates.

What gives Farm B the right to have just as much as Farm A?

Farm A worked harder, why shouldn't they use the money from the surplus to build more silos?

eventually both would begin to slack, there would be little to no reason for Farm A to work hard, and eventually production would drop, and the govt would have to assign more farms to produce that crop, possibly taking that output from other crops needed. see where the chain is going?

yes i realize that it's usually not as "black and white" as that, and so does my teacher, however it is a look at one angle of it.

sorry, didn't mean to get on such a rant...

but basically, there's no perfect system right now...
 
^^^ that pretty much the reason collectivism in Russia failed, because people did not have to work as hard and those who did work hard were never rewarded.

 
Not really, neither country headed purely towards Marx's ideas. They tried to reach a communist utopia, but neither was exactly Marxist. Russia was more focused on Leninist ideas than China. China is now only partially communist as the CCP still runs and controls it. The economy is open (a western idea) further contributing to how they are actually moving away from communism.
 
it's really not the economic system that judges people based on race, sex, class etc.

that's just people in general, in the US there's Title 9

and the whole "Equal Oppurtunity" thing...etc.

(ok i started to rant again sorry deleted...)

basically what you want is people to put aside their prejudices, and the govt. really cannot make people do that, because that "encroaches" on civil rights...

 
High 5!!!!!

Totally agree. Also, how one of the guys above can say America is not a fully capitalist country totally befuddles me.

America has two major parties. One is right wing conservative, one is very right wing conservative. The country is bent on globalisation, the epitome of capitalism. It has its own major sports (Football, Baseball and Basketball) that only compete within North American borders and feed nationalism, insular religious groups that focus on extreme patriotic values, school systems that do not teach world geography or history properly (which is why the rest of the world thinks americans are dumb) etc etc.

Now I'm not saying that my country is not right wing, but if you believe that America is not a capitalist nation you have been totally brainwashed.

P.S. I love rants!
 
why do you automatically include the word selfish into your description of a business man

i know people who have travelled the world for business, made alot of money, and they give so much back to their community, as well as support family and friends
 
There is no such thing as a purely capitalist economy or a purely planned economy. There are some goods that have to be produced by the government because its in no ones best interest to produce them on their own (e.g. national defense).

Then there are goods which have to be partially funded by the government because, under the market system, the price mechanism fails to take into account the benefits if a good (a merit good with a positive externality). Examples include education and pensions.

China is moving toward a capitalist system, but they need to solve the problem of property ownership. The market system survives because of self interest. Thats why there is a flaw with communism. Adam Smith said, "Nobody but a beggar chooses to depend chiefly upon the benevolence of his fellow-citizens.t is not from the benevolence of the butcher, the brewer, or the baker that we expect our dinner, but from their regard to their own interest. "

Just my two cents.
 
America is capitalist, yes, but it is not a fully capitalist country.

Social security, welfare, subsidies, medicare, scholarships, education funding, etc do not exist in a fully capitalist society.
 
Exactly, and another thing about China is they need to get their black market under control. There are soooo many illegal businesses in China that it is impossible to tell the true GDP. Once they get stricter business laws in place, they will have much more financial power. There's a lot of money to be made in China right now.
 
That's not ALWAYS the case. My dad, for example; grew up poor, in a poor town in the middle of bumfuck NY (Hancock). Went to his shitty public school, got into Cornell (first person in his family to ever go to college and it's not exactly a cakewalk to get into). He lived with my mom and sister in a shitty trailer park for years and is now a Vice President and CFO of a non-profit organization. He went from being poor to being in the top 2% of the country in wealth. (not trying to brag; my parents are very modest and much of our money, including everything we got back from Bush's tax cuts, went to charity - just showing my example).

So even when the odds are against you, it isn't like you CAN'T get out of your situation.
 
btw, i love rants too...kinda for instance yesterday my friend ranted to this girl who we're also friends with about how she is not black (no offense, but she can be quite the poser sometimes)

in a fully capitalist country the govt has absolutely no control over any of the businesses, however the US does...

US Postal Service

AMTRAK

CPB (Corporation for Public Broadcasting)

etc
 
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