Literature
Active member
Coming back in a big way.
YES. Stoked to see Symms in the forums.
YES. Stoked to see Symms in the forums.
Mark My Words "Quads will be thrown next year"
- Thread starter TheHERDSkiing
- Start date
astralboy15
Member
Says the people (newschoolers) who say riding is all about having fun and doing it the way you like it - WHY ARE YOU TRYING TO TELL OTHER PEOPLE HOW THEY SHOULD SKI, ESPECIALLY PEOPLE WHO DO IT 100000000% MORE THAN YOU?
You have obviously never hucked anything in your life. Hucking is fun. You've never hit a cliff with a friend and said "dude, I think I can send this a little deeper" or hitting the jump with a pal "I think I can get that extra 180 in there" or "dude, bet ya' can't flip that thing twice!"
What normal human being wouldn't naturally be inclined to try and do four if they can already do three? It's fun. It's like cliff jumping. You hit the 10 footer. Cool. But then it's the 15 footer, then the 20, 30, 50, 70, 100, etc. There is zero functional purpose in going off the bigger ones - other than you think it would be FUN to try/wonder if you can do it. Sometimes it's scary fun. But it's still fun. And natural. All very natural.
Anyone who complains about the way other people ride is obviously doing it wrong. Are you scared you won't catch up? Are you scared that it makes what you do look like less?
Why would you let anyone tell you what your skiing should be? Stop trying to live up to an image. Stop it. STOP TRYING TO FORCE YOUR IMAGE ONTO OTHER PEOPLE.
If most of you were around in the advent of freestyle you would probably be angry with that too - "why can't those skiers ski like everyone else does? Pretty soon they'll be jumping off everything!"
This is the best forum on the internet. No where else will you hear so many people complaining about athletes (and even that word around here is shunned...) trying to progress themselves and their friends. Not many people were saying "I just wish that Michael Jordan would stop scoring points. It's cooler if you just play for the fundamentals".....said no one ever!
I feel like this place is way too concerned about what other people think. Do you wonder why you all wear tall t's? I do. It doesn't help your skiing. Oh, it represents they way you live your life, you say? Please explain how a huge sweater explains your 13 years of existence. Why do you care what your clothes say about you, anyway? Shouldn't you be more concerned about being the person you really want be, what you want other people to think your are?
Spend less time worrying about what you love - spend more time doing what you love and stop caring how you look when you do it.
I DON'T THINK I'LL EVER UNDERSTAND WHY YOU PEOPLE CONTINUE TO CLAIM TO LOVE SKIING - THAT IT IS ABOUT FUN AND DOING IT THE WAY YOU DECIDE TO INTERPRET IT - BUT IT'S ABSOLUTELY THE END OF THE WORLD WHEN SOMEONE ELSE DECIDES TO TAKE IT A DIFFERENT DIRECTION. Hypocrisy much?
If you skied more, you'd care about that stuff much less.
You have obviously never hucked anything in your life. Hucking is fun. You've never hit a cliff with a friend and said "dude, I think I can send this a little deeper" or hitting the jump with a pal "I think I can get that extra 180 in there" or "dude, bet ya' can't flip that thing twice!"
What normal human being wouldn't naturally be inclined to try and do four if they can already do three? It's fun. It's like cliff jumping. You hit the 10 footer. Cool. But then it's the 15 footer, then the 20, 30, 50, 70, 100, etc. There is zero functional purpose in going off the bigger ones - other than you think it would be FUN to try/wonder if you can do it. Sometimes it's scary fun. But it's still fun. And natural. All very natural.
Anyone who complains about the way other people ride is obviously doing it wrong. Are you scared you won't catch up? Are you scared that it makes what you do look like less?
Why would you let anyone tell you what your skiing should be? Stop trying to live up to an image. Stop it. STOP TRYING TO FORCE YOUR IMAGE ONTO OTHER PEOPLE.
If most of you were around in the advent of freestyle you would probably be angry with that too - "why can't those skiers ski like everyone else does? Pretty soon they'll be jumping off everything!"
This is the best forum on the internet. No where else will you hear so many people complaining about athletes (and even that word around here is shunned...) trying to progress themselves and their friends. Not many people were saying "I just wish that Michael Jordan would stop scoring points. It's cooler if you just play for the fundamentals".....said no one ever!
I feel like this place is way too concerned about what other people think. Do you wonder why you all wear tall t's? I do. It doesn't help your skiing. Oh, it represents they way you live your life, you say? Please explain how a huge sweater explains your 13 years of existence. Why do you care what your clothes say about you, anyway? Shouldn't you be more concerned about being the person you really want be, what you want other people to think your are?
Spend less time worrying about what you love - spend more time doing what you love and stop caring how you look when you do it.
I DON'T THINK I'LL EVER UNDERSTAND WHY YOU PEOPLE CONTINUE TO CLAIM TO LOVE SKIING - THAT IT IS ABOUT FUN AND DOING IT THE WAY YOU DECIDE TO INTERPRET IT - BUT IT'S ABSOLUTELY THE END OF THE WORLD WHEN SOMEONE ELSE DECIDES TO TAKE IT A DIFFERENT DIRECTION. Hypocrisy much?
If you skied more, you'd care about that stuff much less.
astralboy15
Member
Why care about someone else's style? Why not go work on your own. Stop worrying about how other people look when they're doing their thing.
astralboy15
Member
Except that a version of snowboarding originated completely on it's own with zero input from surfing. Zero. And they've been having fun doing it for 150 years.
http://www.tetongravity.com/blogs/Turkey-Theoriginsofsnowboardingdiscovered-261061.htm
http://www.tetongravity.com/blogs/Turkey-Theoriginsofsnowboardingdiscovered-261061.htm
astralboy15
Member
Then why don't you go and do them if you'd like to see them so badly?
astralboy15
Member
Finally someone who is making some sense.
JWeinstock
Active member
the first post i have a 100% agreed with in this thread. Maybe Bobby Brown enjoys scaring himself and will try and throw a quad. if thats what he enjoys let him do it.
mooseman077
Member
You know, people are going to throw quads. It's going to happen, whether its next year or the year after that. But you know what? Not everyone is going to be doing them. There will still be plenty of skiers out there who are doing stylie tricks and shit. Its just how sports like ours go. We all like to ride but we all have our own personal preference of what style is. Look at skating or bmxing. In the beginning, people really only knew one style to ride and everybody rode that way. Eventually, you progress to different styles of riding. Everything has its place in our sport, and the nice thing about how we have grown is now there are different crews out there with different ways of riding, and I think we will continue to maintain a balance between ways of skiing. Now for sure commercially they are still going to push the guy who can do the quad, but for every 1 guy that can quad there will be 20 kids throwing nose butter 9s and shit.
jca
Active member
I fucking love this astralboy15 guy. Hit the nail right on the head with those couple posts.
While I enjoy watching stylish skiing along with new crazy flip/spins, the new standard of comp skiing and professional skiers does absolutely nothing to change what I love about skiing. I could care less if people are doing triples and quads all over the place. That won't change skiing for me or effect how I ski. I will always love sending pillow lines, hauling ass through tight trees, straightlining gnarly shit, backflips, slushy parks, and just fuckin turning.
"..one single ski turn-whether it's on a groomer or couloir-can make you the happiest person alive." - John Sifter in the intro of Powder Mag's December 2012 issue.
While I enjoy watching stylish skiing along with new crazy flip/spins, the new standard of comp skiing and professional skiers does absolutely nothing to change what I love about skiing. I could care less if people are doing triples and quads all over the place. That won't change skiing for me or effect how I ski. I will always love sending pillow lines, hauling ass through tight trees, straightlining gnarly shit, backflips, slushy parks, and just fuckin turning.
"..one single ski turn-whether it's on a groomer or couloir-can make you the happiest person alive." - John Sifter in the intro of Powder Mag's December 2012 issue.
freestyler540
Active member
I dont care, I gave up competing because it was a contest to know who could spin the most in a comp.
LSDTripGod
Member
i said all of this already...
thank god simms is still active
funlovincriminal
Member
ahh gee wiz another quad thread whoop-de-whoop!
i bet you'll make another jon brogan thread in a couple days time too
i bet you'll make another jon brogan thread in a couple days time too
Shifties4Dayz
Active member
I still don't like doubles
Royal-bamboo
Member
Agreed. But as tricks progress so should jump size
Dr.Dickless
Active member
quads onto rails
I think that a bulk of your post misses the true reasoning behind this discussion.
First off - its completely normal to have open discussion about sport. The idea that you have to be good at a sport to engage in opinionated dialogue is just silly. Professional sport has never been about that, and never should be. Professionals get paid to entertain their fans, their fans subsequently consume the products that the pros endorse, and the companies manufacturing those products pay the pros, sponsor the events and advertise in the media.
So you should shutter that anger that people want to engage in an open debate about what they want to see. That is what it is all about, and anyone should be allowed to express their opinion.
Now, what I do agree with is the idea that its extremely hypocritical to state "You shouldn't do multiple flips, skiing is about freedom of expression." That statement - which honestly is one I've made myself numerous times - is completely false. If we're arguing for freedom of expression, you should be allowed to do absolutely whatever you want, however you want, with as many flips as you want. By that logic in fact, aerials is dope as fuck - just like racing or high-level ski instructing. I think there's merit to that idea - that to truly embrace freeskiing, one must embrace all aspects regardless of their own personal bias.
I think the real issue that isn't being expressed correctly though is that people want variety in the contests they watch. I know that my main issue with watching basically every single contest since the cab 10 got popular is that its just like classic aerials - a bunch of athletes doing exactly the same flippy/spinny thing over and over. Even my parents agree with that, where they would see an X-games where its basically flipp/spinny crossed skis huckfest and say "wow, doesn't anyone do different tricks?"
The reasoning behind this I once came to terms with grilling Peter Olenick and Colby West (at the height of their careers) on the issue - Both of them were highly capable of extremely stylish and interesting tricks, but neither ever threw them in contest. When asked it was simple "Dude, We'd love to do something awesome at X-games, but there's $20k on the line and I know the judges are going to require a cab 10 to win."
There's no way that someone making a living off of skiing is going to break out of the mould to risk not winning the big bucks.
Circle back to our ecosystem of sponsorships, athletes and fans - and what you have is fans growing tired of the same flippy/spinny thing being thrown over and over in the contests they want to watch. As sad as it is to admit, the only reason that a professional contest exists is because people watch it and buy the products associated with that contest. Believe me, contests do not exist without sponsorship dollars, and neither do professional skiers.
So when the contests become boring to watch - we have a problem. We also have an amazing asset here at Newschoolers where there is an open forum for anyone - armchair athlete to mega pro - to share their opinion. That opinion is that its getting boring, and I frankly agree.
What we should be fighting for is variety. Currently, the money is controlled by the judging structure, and the judging structure puts emphasis on extra rotations (Degree of Difficulty). The callout that should be made in these arguments is not that style or trick selection should be controlled, but that Athletes should have the ability to score high in a contest using different tricks than the current biggest flip/spin combo on the table by one guy. If we do not revolt with our demands and call for variety, we will head in the direction of classic aerials. Its a bunch of guys trying to do the exact same trick (which is the hardest possible trick deemed safe to try) slightly better than one another.
For me, this is a snorefest, and makes me stop wanting to watch contests. I then stop consuming the products based off of those contests, the contests stop getting sponsor dollars and the athletes stop getting paid.
Of course, this is slightly over dramatized, but you can find a lot of the proof you'd need in examining classic freestyle, which went in this exact direction after the 'hot dog' movement fell to regimented training and contesting.
First off - its completely normal to have open discussion about sport. The idea that you have to be good at a sport to engage in opinionated dialogue is just silly. Professional sport has never been about that, and never should be. Professionals get paid to entertain their fans, their fans subsequently consume the products that the pros endorse, and the companies manufacturing those products pay the pros, sponsor the events and advertise in the media.
So you should shutter that anger that people want to engage in an open debate about what they want to see. That is what it is all about, and anyone should be allowed to express their opinion.
Now, what I do agree with is the idea that its extremely hypocritical to state "You shouldn't do multiple flips, skiing is about freedom of expression." That statement - which honestly is one I've made myself numerous times - is completely false. If we're arguing for freedom of expression, you should be allowed to do absolutely whatever you want, however you want, with as many flips as you want. By that logic in fact, aerials is dope as fuck - just like racing or high-level ski instructing. I think there's merit to that idea - that to truly embrace freeskiing, one must embrace all aspects regardless of their own personal bias.
I think the real issue that isn't being expressed correctly though is that people want variety in the contests they watch. I know that my main issue with watching basically every single contest since the cab 10 got popular is that its just like classic aerials - a bunch of athletes doing exactly the same flippy/spinny thing over and over. Even my parents agree with that, where they would see an X-games where its basically flipp/spinny crossed skis huckfest and say "wow, doesn't anyone do different tricks?"
The reasoning behind this I once came to terms with grilling Peter Olenick and Colby West (at the height of their careers) on the issue - Both of them were highly capable of extremely stylish and interesting tricks, but neither ever threw them in contest. When asked it was simple "Dude, We'd love to do something awesome at X-games, but there's $20k on the line and I know the judges are going to require a cab 10 to win."
There's no way that someone making a living off of skiing is going to break out of the mould to risk not winning the big bucks.
Circle back to our ecosystem of sponsorships, athletes and fans - and what you have is fans growing tired of the same flippy/spinny thing being thrown over and over in the contests they want to watch. As sad as it is to admit, the only reason that a professional contest exists is because people watch it and buy the products associated with that contest. Believe me, contests do not exist without sponsorship dollars, and neither do professional skiers.
So when the contests become boring to watch - we have a problem. We also have an amazing asset here at Newschoolers where there is an open forum for anyone - armchair athlete to mega pro - to share their opinion. That opinion is that its getting boring, and I frankly agree.
What we should be fighting for is variety. Currently, the money is controlled by the judging structure, and the judging structure puts emphasis on extra rotations (Degree of Difficulty). The callout that should be made in these arguments is not that style or trick selection should be controlled, but that Athletes should have the ability to score high in a contest using different tricks than the current biggest flip/spin combo on the table by one guy. If we do not revolt with our demands and call for variety, we will head in the direction of classic aerials. Its a bunch of guys trying to do the exact same trick (which is the hardest possible trick deemed safe to try) slightly better than one another.
For me, this is a snorefest, and makes me stop wanting to watch contests. I then stop consuming the products based off of those contests, the contests stop getting sponsor dollars and the athletes stop getting paid.
Of course, this is slightly over dramatized, but you can find a lot of the proof you'd need in examining classic freestyle, which went in this exact direction after the 'hot dog' movement fell to regimented training and contesting.
chill_davis
Active member
chads gap
Tom-the-Hendrix
New member
Well said
astralboy15
Member
Number one, If you for one second think that a professional rider (or really in any sport) should dictate their riding to please the fans - you should logout of newschoolers, burn your skis, and please start razor scootering. Imagine the conversation "hey man, should I huck this new trick?" "No way, newschoolers would think it's aerials, you should do a cork five." Give.me.a.break. It's not about putting out tricks and video parts and movies that you know people want to see, or would like to see - it's about putting out riding that you like to do and hope people are stoked on.
Number two, you can't spin "cab" on skis. You can try and make the nomenclature work any way you'd like - but you can't. You face forward, or backwards - all the time. Accept the fact that this word will never describe what you do on skis and move on with your life.
Number three, your example of using Colby West & Peter Olenick and specific tricks they needed to win has recently become invalid. Yes, judges like the spin to win. However, Henrik Harlaut won big air with a double when other were stomping triples. He threw a triple in his glory run, for fun. The contest was already won.
Number four, describing the corporate & professional model of sponsorship to an ecosystem is ridiculous. Completely ridiculous. I'll let this one go. Ecosystems are quiet complex.
Number five, we will not have a problem when contests are boring to watch. As an aside, do people still watch them on TV? I always just watch individual runs after everything has been said and done. When contests get too boring to watch they will come up with ones that are more fun. When those get boring and TV and other sponsors decide they can't turn a problem - also not a problem. When equipment sales go down the drain and the industry goes belly-up, also not a problem. When ski resorts charge $200 a day and no one goes anymore and they crash, also not a problem. Ski & snowboard presses will still exist. So will the knowledge on their operation. Planks will still get made. People will still go and get after it. You will either ski until your are too old and too broken, or you won't. I don't really care what the industry does. It won't change the idea of getting out into the mountains for me. Maybe it'll even be better? But the financial state of the industry means nothing to me.
Number six, variety is plentiful. I'm actually a snowboarder - but thoroughly love to watch skiing. They have an interpretation to big lines and park jump that is inspiring to watch. At least in the shred world, some of the most entertaining edits come out of nowhere, from kids no one has heard of, who don't really get "paid" like some other folks might. One example - all those kids from NH who happen to ride rails more creatively, more properly, and with better style (though style is completely subjective) that 95% of those guys "getting paid." So no, I don't think creativity is at risk. And as another aside - any given day at my resort I see people riding things in completely unique ways; their own interpretations. I get more inspiration from watching some random kid from the lift air some bump in some completely ridiculous way that looks really fun - and then makes me want to try to hit some other stuff in weird ways - then any video part or edit ever.
Number, you are right on about not wanting to purpose products based on contest you think are boring. I'm more function over form, myself. Though I admittedly do have a certain penchant for supporting companies who support riders that I have looked up to for the last ten years - who have been dropped by old mega sponsors are still killing it, on their own terms. I happy to buy that product, if it's good product.
~ type, but not read.
Number two, you can't spin "cab" on skis. You can try and make the nomenclature work any way you'd like - but you can't. You face forward, or backwards - all the time. Accept the fact that this word will never describe what you do on skis and move on with your life.
Number three, your example of using Colby West & Peter Olenick and specific tricks they needed to win has recently become invalid. Yes, judges like the spin to win. However, Henrik Harlaut won big air with a double when other were stomping triples. He threw a triple in his glory run, for fun. The contest was already won.
Number four, describing the corporate & professional model of sponsorship to an ecosystem is ridiculous. Completely ridiculous. I'll let this one go. Ecosystems are quiet complex.
Number five, we will not have a problem when contests are boring to watch. As an aside, do people still watch them on TV? I always just watch individual runs after everything has been said and done. When contests get too boring to watch they will come up with ones that are more fun. When those get boring and TV and other sponsors decide they can't turn a problem - also not a problem. When equipment sales go down the drain and the industry goes belly-up, also not a problem. When ski resorts charge $200 a day and no one goes anymore and they crash, also not a problem. Ski & snowboard presses will still exist. So will the knowledge on their operation. Planks will still get made. People will still go and get after it. You will either ski until your are too old and too broken, or you won't. I don't really care what the industry does. It won't change the idea of getting out into the mountains for me. Maybe it'll even be better? But the financial state of the industry means nothing to me.
Number six, variety is plentiful. I'm actually a snowboarder - but thoroughly love to watch skiing. They have an interpretation to big lines and park jump that is inspiring to watch. At least in the shred world, some of the most entertaining edits come out of nowhere, from kids no one has heard of, who don't really get "paid" like some other folks might. One example - all those kids from NH who happen to ride rails more creatively, more properly, and with better style (though style is completely subjective) that 95% of those guys "getting paid." So no, I don't think creativity is at risk. And as another aside - any given day at my resort I see people riding things in completely unique ways; their own interpretations. I get more inspiration from watching some random kid from the lift air some bump in some completely ridiculous way that looks really fun - and then makes me want to try to hit some other stuff in weird ways - then any video part or edit ever.
Number, you are right on about not wanting to purpose products based on contest you think are boring. I'm more function over form, myself. Though I admittedly do have a certain penchant for supporting companies who support riders that I have looked up to for the last ten years - who have been dropped by old mega sponsors are still killing it, on their own terms. I happy to buy that product, if it's good product.
~ type, but not read.
TheHERDSkiing
Member
Well dang.... video of one thrown just came out today.I do agree with most people, we need to get our triples (we also have some more doubles to do) before we start to step it up another flip. There's TONS of triples to still be thrown, we're getting ahead of our selves and not taking it step by step. I'm afraid that it's growing to fast going from doubles to triples and now quads that people are going to start getting really hurt.
I don't know, it will be cool to look back at this thread in a year or two and see what we thought was going to happen and what actually did happen.
*keeps fingers crossed for the best*
I don't know, it will be cool to look back at this thread in a year or two and see what we thought was going to happen and what actually did happen.
*keeps fingers crossed for the best*
1. You actually could go further than that and argue that you should put out tricks for whatever reason you so wish. Whether that is to win contests, please fans or just to make yourself happy that would be a much better thing to settle on.
2. You're a snowboarder, and I understand that. We skiers use cab improperly, and you will sadly have to deal with that fact. We don't give a fuck about your logic.
3. If Henrik had won with a cork 5 then I'd agree, however since it was a double I don't. Variety isn't within one less flip, its within totally different tricks. A contest with variety would be totally awesome.
4. Of course ecosystems are complex, but that by no means invalidating the discussion? Most people don't think about anything to do with all the factors surrounding what they're talking about so I always like to point out the larger picture that isn't talked about. Is there likely tonnes of massive factors in addition to what I talked about? For sure. I have a pretty deep understanding of the back end of things though, so my point is at least somewhat valid and a good point to start a debate on the issue.
5. Your point that people will do their best to ride is a good one. I don't disagree that there will always be a way to enjoy the sport - and hey I also agree its more core to not give a fuck about the money. It however is a really narrow view to think that snowsports would be so accessible without a certain level of money within the industry. Chairlifts cost a lot to operate, resorts are a ton to maintain and terrain parks need expensive snowcats to build. Yes, you can hike your BC on the west, walk up the local tobogganing hill on the east, and simply spend your time in the streets vs. the park - but I don't think that as many people would be happy with this state. You can state you don't care about the financial health of the industry, but its being ignorant to what it would be like if things actually fell apart. You're absolutely right that the super core people would find a way, but it wouldn't be as easy and it wouldn't be as accessable for your average person - which lots of people probably do care about.
6. I agree that the variety is out there, and in fact the prevalence of video on the internet has done an extremely great job at pushing variety into all corners of the world. I do not argue that creativity as a whole is at risk in any way, shape or form. However, I think that creativity at the high level competition front is definitely at risk, and that is just too bad. I think with easy adjustments to the judging systems stemmed from viewer demand, we could have very exciting, creative and variety-filled contests. As someone else said, they can do it in figure skating, why can't we do it in skiing? Contests are where the money is for athletes, and if they could get paid well to be super creative and do it in a contest... well then creativity both in style and in the progression of difficulty both win.
I absolutely am happy to see that we do agree on one issue bar none - support the companies that support the part of the snowsports industry you love. Like nothing else, this is what can guide things in the direction you want.
2. You're a snowboarder, and I understand that. We skiers use cab improperly, and you will sadly have to deal with that fact. We don't give a fuck about your logic.
3. If Henrik had won with a cork 5 then I'd agree, however since it was a double I don't. Variety isn't within one less flip, its within totally different tricks. A contest with variety would be totally awesome.
4. Of course ecosystems are complex, but that by no means invalidating the discussion? Most people don't think about anything to do with all the factors surrounding what they're talking about so I always like to point out the larger picture that isn't talked about. Is there likely tonnes of massive factors in addition to what I talked about? For sure. I have a pretty deep understanding of the back end of things though, so my point is at least somewhat valid and a good point to start a debate on the issue.
5. Your point that people will do their best to ride is a good one. I don't disagree that there will always be a way to enjoy the sport - and hey I also agree its more core to not give a fuck about the money. It however is a really narrow view to think that snowsports would be so accessible without a certain level of money within the industry. Chairlifts cost a lot to operate, resorts are a ton to maintain and terrain parks need expensive snowcats to build. Yes, you can hike your BC on the west, walk up the local tobogganing hill on the east, and simply spend your time in the streets vs. the park - but I don't think that as many people would be happy with this state. You can state you don't care about the financial health of the industry, but its being ignorant to what it would be like if things actually fell apart. You're absolutely right that the super core people would find a way, but it wouldn't be as easy and it wouldn't be as accessable for your average person - which lots of people probably do care about.
6. I agree that the variety is out there, and in fact the prevalence of video on the internet has done an extremely great job at pushing variety into all corners of the world. I do not argue that creativity as a whole is at risk in any way, shape or form. However, I think that creativity at the high level competition front is definitely at risk, and that is just too bad. I think with easy adjustments to the judging systems stemmed from viewer demand, we could have very exciting, creative and variety-filled contests. As someone else said, they can do it in figure skating, why can't we do it in skiing? Contests are where the money is for athletes, and if they could get paid well to be super creative and do it in a contest... well then creativity both in style and in the progression of difficulty both win.
I absolutely am happy to see that we do agree on one issue bar none - support the companies that support the part of the snowsports industry you love. Like nothing else, this is what can guide things in the direction you want.
