Looking for feedback: K2 Hellbent vs. Line Sir Francis Bacon

S

smells_like_tuna

Member
I have really easy (and cheap) access to both these skis thru the shop where I work, and I'm looking for a dedicated powder tool for Squaw Valley that will tear up the

soft stuff but still be capable in the chopped-up crud for which Squaw

is famous. The Bacons have gotten rave reviews, especially in the Freeskier buyer's guide, but I've heard that the Bacons are a bit on the soft side (although they've been stiffened for '09).

Will these skis be sufficient for a big buy like myself (6' 1",

210lbs)? I already have a pair of daily drivers ('07 Line Chronic

Blend in a 179), so the Bacons would really only be used on pow days. The Hellbents have also gotten great reviews, and apparently they're more versatile thru the crud and hardpack than I would have guessed. I'm just worried the Hellbents will be too much ski. Also can't really decide between the 179 and 189 lengths. And I've ruled out the Obsethed because it's not as wide underfoot as I would like. Other skis I'm considering, but might not be able to get, are the Rossi S6, Salomon Czar, Armada JJ, and Liberty Double Helix. Feedback, opinions, and suggestions are all welcome. Thanks.
 
if you're looking for a designated powder tool, thatll still give you some versatility, def look more into the new jjs. rockered tip and tail, traditional chamber underfoot to keep it versatile and the double sidecut keeps it from hooking in powder, but having the normal sidecut underfoot lets u make turns on hardstuff.

plus it comes in 188, so its not gonna feel too short
 
When you mention "dedicated powder tool" and "squaw" in the same sentence, The Praxis Pow immediately comes to mind.

For someone like you I think that both the Hellbent and Sir Francis Bacon are poor choices. Both are soft, and the Bacon (as a 182) is too short for someone of your size and weight. If you had to go with a Hellbent, no question you'd want the 189. I don't suggest it though as you mention something that can handle the chop really well.

I'd throw out the new JP vs Julien as although it claims it is a 185, it's more like a 182 as well. Soft in the tips/tail, and has an extremely thin profile (part of why it is SUPER light). For someone like you for a dedicated powder tool? I'd look at the following (in no particular order). 192 Salomon Rocker, 185/195 Praxis pow (size is personal preference), ,185 Armada ARG, 192 Praxis Big MTN 120, 188 Praxis Hybird, 189 Praxis Powder RX, 186/196 Moment Comi/Comi Kazi (size personal prefernce again), 186 Moment Donner party (although this is a little soft), 188 Rossi S7, 190 Atomic Big Daddy (rockered version), 186/196 PM Gear Lsaha Pow, 185 Volkl Kuro, 185 Volkl Chopstick.

Obviously that's a lot of skis. If you don't care whatsoever about hard snow performance, groomers and that kind of stuff, it is very hard to argue against the Praxis Pow, Donner Party, or ARG, the Praxis Hybrid is right there too. If you want more of a versitle ski, the field widens. The Sally Rocker, Big MTN 120, Big Daddy, and the 196 Comi Kazi are your go-big, go-fast, stiffer directional type skis. The Kuro is almost there too, definitely directional, but softer than the others. The Comi and Chopstick are big, fat, tradional shaped skis, with rocker, the Comi being stiff, and I am unsure of the Chopstick's flex (softer than the Comi for sure though). The PM Gear Lsaha Pow and Rossi S7 are both thinner that 120 underfoot, and are of the "I could ski this every day, but probably shouldn't" category. Their early taper tips will be great in the pow and excel in the chopped up stuff (similar to the Praxis Pow, Hybrid, ARG and Donner Party) but thinner waists will allow the to perform (some say quite well) on stuff all over the mountain, even in harder conditions.

Think about your skiing style and general preference for flexes and make your decision. Nothing I listed there is too soft for you, but the other ones you suggested likely are.
 
actually hellbents are much stiffer than bacons, have you ever flexed a pair of bacons. the tips are soft but underfoot, the part you are actually skiing is quite stiff.
 
alright well thanks for correcting me. I have flexed a pair of bacons and also hellbents, but not right next to each other.

 
Yeah but in the crud/chopped up stuff at speed, the soft rockered tips on the hellbents are going to flap and deflect like mad.
 
I appreciate all the suggestions, but all but one of those skis you suggested are bigger and heavier than I want. The K2 Hellbent is the absolute biggest ski I would want. Basically looking for something that's minimum 110 underfoot (Rossi S6, Salomon Czar) and maximum 120ish (K2 Hellbent, Liberty Double Helix), and no longer than 189.

Definitely interested in the Armada JJ. You're mistaken about the ski being soft in the tail though. Just checked out a pair in the store this morning, and the tails are surprisingly stiff and poppy. They ARE very light though, which is sweet.

Also checked out the Line Bacons in the store, and good lord they're soft. Kind of a turn-off. But, all the reviews I've read say that they're a great all-around performer, and the Freeskier buyer's guide had this to say about 'em, which I don't understand:

You wouldn’t expect a ski that is 115mm under foot to “rail it on

groomers,” but the SFB does that and more. “The best, most fun ski

ever!” raved one tester. With a wood core and Line’s G-Cut technology,

which produces predicable and powerful energy when exiting turns, the

maple macroblock wood-core SFB “allows you to be as aggressive as you

want” and is “amazingly nimble.”

And in regards to your statement about the Hellbent not handling chop very well, I'll pass along the mini-review from the Freeskier buyer's guide:

With plenty of rocker, the Hellbent “floats on crusty powder and is

responsive in crud.” Testers feel that the ski is “one of the best

rockered skis” tested and that the Hellbent’s “unique and fun shape”

makes for a ski that “performs well in all conditions.”

I realize that the Freeskier reviews are not the end-all of what skis I should get, but they're pretty much all I have to go on at the moment, other than forums such as NS.

 
Also forgot to mention I want a true twin-tip, which rules out a lot of the Volkl offerings, as well as the Rossi S7 and Line Mothership. Plus the Motherships are HEAVY.
 
that post was kind of a fail

bents will be good in purely pow, bacons will be good all around, mo'ships will be good for like big mtn comps and shit, sounds like you don't want them. i'd say bacons, if you're a good enough skier they'll float fine in the pow and they're sick all around
 
have you ever ridden hellbents?

from that post im guessing no. The tips are super soft on the bent and do flap everywhere, i wont lie or try to deny it, but they are so big (underfoot/weight/189) and stiff underfoot that it just plows through everything.

now im not really sure how snow is up in whistler, maybe we just have different snow down here at mammoth/squaw other eastern sierras, we get very wet snow aka sierra cement, and with the hellbent its perfect size to plow through everything and float you even going slow.

but have you ever ridden bents?

they are so stable, they just feel weird at first and look unstable cause the tip flops

 
Surface maybe?
live life 2 if you want rocker
the tj schneider artist ltd look amazing and if you want stiffer look at the other artist ltd one.
hellbents might be a good choice but also a little soft.
praxis are definitely sick as well
 
damn, im sick of people saying the hellbents are soft. they are not at all they are actually a pretty stiff ski. yes the tips and tail are floppy but along the effective edge(underfoot) it is really quite stiff
 
Yes I have ridden bents (albiet the 179 size) and I found that at higher speeds in the chopped up stuff the tips did flap and deflect cause they were so big. I'm not saying they are a bad ski, not at all, but I misunderstood what the original poster said.

For the guy who is asking, next time don't say dedicated powder ski. Lol. Those are all pretty much 120mm+.

 
how much do you weigh? im at 210 so me and the original poster are in the same boat and i road the 189s. our weights and ski size probably played a big difference though

 
175. I found the tips deflected more than my Thugs (192s) did. That's all I know.

If you want something smaller than 120 and less than 189, I'd change my list of skis to 185 JP vs Julien, 186 EHP, 188 S7, Praxis MTN Jib, Moment Ruby and the Moment Bibby Pro.
 
Bacons have not been stiffened for 09. i emailed bot like and Eric himself and they said they are the same ski as last year(they were slightly stiffened last year)
 
It's actually looking like the Armada JJ is now the front runner. Looked into that ski some more, looks pretty spot-on for what I want. Definite pow ski that can still handle the crud and groomers on the way back to the lift.
 
Hellbents are ridiculously soft....anyone who says otherwise is just stupid. Seriously. They are good for soft snow but not everyone needs to ride them for everything just to be that guy.....

Bacons are supposed to be good all over the mountain. Not a charging ski, but something that's fun all over.

I'm waiting on some JJ's, as they seem to be the ski that can do it all. They're backordered till Dec 1st tho....so there's some waiting to do.
 
i cant say dec 1st 100%...since i guess they arent even positive. But im guessing then at the earliest
 
They totally are soft. Underfoot IMO doesn't even matter that much because your foot is completely solid, that area isn't going to flex that much anyways. But, when you have a ski that is stiff underfoot and soft in the tips and tails, and you are skiing Colorado for instance, where runs can get tracked out really fast and it can be really choppy, the stiff underfoot and soft tip creates a hinge point in front of your foot. With a huge shovel, it will catch all those chunks and deflect easily cause of the floppiness, this creates a huge instability.

I think a stiffer rockered ski like the ARG could be really good in cut up stuff, but I haven't gotten the chance to ski them yet so I dunno.
 
dude, i ski at mammoth so dont give me any tracked out bullshit

and hellbents are fucking stiff underfoot, its not just a small portion of the ski that is under your foot it is about 150 cm of ski on the grownd that is stiff, your feet only cover about 30 of those cm so ur boot example doesnt work at all. bents r stiff
 
I honestly don't know what you're going on about. Since I've read your posts I have made two trips back into my room to flex my hellbents and the only conclusion I can come to is that you have a very different idea of what stiff is than I do. Would you consider the EPs pros to be stiff as well? Maybe a blade of grass?
 
150cm? Are you fucking kidding me? Even if you had the 189s, that would leave approximately 40cm of ski that is soft. 20cm in the tip and tail. Which is COMPLETELY retarded (and wrong). The rocker in both the tip and tail is at least 40cm each, and the tips/tails are SOFT, regardless of what is underfoot. I am also pretty sure that the rocker (measured 20/40) doesn't actually include the length of the tips/tails, just the rocker up to where they start. Seeing as tips/tails usually measure 15-20cm themselves, that would leave 80cm of flat ski on the 189s. So, even if that middle flat part was Squad stiff (it's not) more than half of the ski is stiff flexly soft rocker stuff.

Now, this isn't a bad thing. At all. I've skied a lot of fat skis and a lot of rockered skis, and the hellbent is definitely one the best to be used all over the mountain. It's tons of fun in soft stuff and yes you can actually carve the thing on groomers. It's soft flex makes it forgiving, easy to ski, and very jibby/playful. But, don't delude yourself to thinking that it is a capable high speed charging type ski. Sure you can do it, but you will get tip flat/deflection and it will not be as stable as something stiffer, say a Rossi S7, Volkl Kuro, even JP vs Julien (mainly due to more cambered ski/less rocker).
 
sorry, i was super drunk last night when i posted that so i was having trouble composing.

i know its not b-squad stiff but it is decently stiff under foot and it handles great all around like you said. im just saying that for me they did not deflect all crazy like you said, maybe its because of our weight, and i believe you said u had 179s, im not really sure im just speaking from my experiences with the ski
 
Dammit, just called Armada and you're right. Which basically means that, for employee purchase pricing, the JJs aren't gonna be available this year, since Armada has to fill all the dealer orders first. According to their sales guy on the phone, they already have a huge amount of backorders from shops. Looks like the JJs are out of the running, which sucks.
 
Yeah I'm thinking the Hellbent is the way to go, since I can't get the JJs. Not looking for a big mountain charger (I ain't Seth Morrison), more just a general-use pow ski that'll be fun even when the soft stuff turns to chop.

Also... anybody know anything about the Surface Live Life or Live Life 2? Just found out about these recently and would like to learn a bit more if possible.
 
If you have cash money to spend, I wouldn't sell yourself short on Hellbents if JJ's are really what you want. I mean you are spending $700 dollars, you should get what you really want, and if you search hard enough I am sure you can find some JJ's.
 
You could probably get a pair of JJs from Backcountry.com for $575-$600 if you can get a 10%-15% discount code. Not spectacular, but better than a kick in the ass.
 
That's the thing, I don't have a lot of money to spend. I work at a shop, so I'm getting hooked up with employee purchase pricing. I won't be paying retail, partly because I don't have to, but also because I simply can't afford it.
 
That's an interesting (and good) idea. I actually have two of those 15% discount codes. It's a bummer cuz Armada WOULD hook me up, but the skis are gonna be pretty much impossible to get. I'll also try talking to one of the local shops up in Tahoe and see if they can hook me up since I work at a shop too. Also just talked to the Liberty rep, and he said he'll hook me up with employee pricing for their skis. Maybe the Double Helix? Who knows, this shit is frustrating cuz I'm too damn picky.
 
I just picked up a pair of jj's for 575 shipped off backcountry. PM me if you wanna know how to get a discount code.
 
the salomon czar skis a lot better in all conditions than either the hellbent or the bacon.

Personally i thought the bacon was a pig, no pun intended.

I skied the hellbents all last season and low angle powder is where they really shine. the czar has the best attributes of rocker, while still retaining the same skiability of a traditional camber.

Also given your size, you need something more substantial. i'm 5'11 170 skiing a 179 (shoulda gone bigger, i know) hellbent, and i get scared when i really open them up. If I push too hard into a turn, the tip just folds under me. Granted a 189 might not do that, but i would feel more in control with a ski like the czar.
 
check out the salomon czars. light, rockered tip, skied great in a whiteout in utah.

that being said, what about a ski that isnt out yet? the atomic bent chetlers? if its gonna be a designated powder ski, that means u have something else to ski currently and can wait a bit on it. rockered thugs? sounds fantastic to me.
 
I have skied and own(ed) them both.

The Hellbents are floppier in the tips, but the Bacon is soft throughout. Both are fun skis, but I think the Hellbents will deflect more in crud(as Alex has pointed out) as the tips seem to be a bit more out of touch with the rest of the ski.

Personally, I don't see the point of having a normally chambered dedicated pow ski. If the technology helps them float and makes it easier, then use it. I would rather sacrifice performance on the groomed than in the powder.
 
The tips of the hellbent are ridiculously soft and do deflect like mad but throughout the part that has camber they are stiff enough to hold up for all-mountain shredding, I have Mad'n Ak's also and those tips deflect from directly in front of and behind the bindings so i love to get on my hellbents and they have 75cm area that holds strong, and it does not matter that the tips do deflect on the bents because the stiff part is the part in contact with the snow.(this is all referring to firm to hard snow conditions)
 
Would like to check out the Czars, but they are out of my price range.

I really appreciate all the info. Thanks guys.

That said, I think the title of this thread is now completely irrelevant. I've narrowed my search down to 5 skis:

1. Armada JJ in a 185 => might be too short for me, and I can't get

them at shop employee pricing because Armada is sold out of them. This

makes them pretty expensive.

2. K2 Hellbent in a 189 => might be too soft. Heard lots of mixed

opinions, some say great for crud and chop, others say they're only

good for powder. Not sure on the pricing or availability thru my shop.

3. Liberty Double Helix in a 190 => a very big ski, good reviews

from Freeskier, but have heard it's a very soft-flexing ski, which

worries me. Also my cheapest option.

4. Surface Live Life in a 189 => narrowest of the skis listed (112

underfoot), early rise tip with traditional sidecut and camber.

Apparently pretty stiff. No reviews anywhere about this ski though.

5. Surface Live Life 2 in a 189 => same dimensions of the original

Live Life, but fully rockered and with a softer flex. Potentially more

fun and playful, but maybe not so good when the pow turns to chop.

Again, no available reviews of this ski.

So... keep the opinions, ideas, and input coming, cuz I'm pretty

confused as to which route to go. And, just to make things clear, I want a true twin-tip, not a directional ski, which rules out the Mothership, Megawatt, etc.
 
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