LGBT Athletes in Sochi
- Thread starter MaxBerkowitz
- Start date
Man you really are incredibly unintelligent.
And you seem to know a lot about jail life, did you do time?
By the way, it's called being bisexual, but I don't expect for you to be able to comprehend that.
You still haven't made any arguments to back up how one is "turned" gay. Normal people know that this is not possible, because they have had conversations with gay people, and because lots of research has been done in the area.
And no, I don't remember the Roman Empire, it was a little before I was born. However I have read extensively about Ancient Rome, and will now briefly try to educate you about "homosexuality" in Ancient Rome, but it is probably a lost cause seeing that your IQ is quite low.
Homosexuality in Rome had nothing to do with love between two men, it was an activity that citizens engaged in to assert their masculinity through domination over others. Sexual relations between citizens was not acceptable, only sex with male slaves and non citizens was considered acceptable.
What we are defending is the right for a human being to love who they love without the fear of persecution, what you are defending is the right to dominate others, much like the citizens of Rome did when they raped male slaves. So in an amusing turn of events, it turns out you have some things in common with the citizens of Rome, you too wish to control and dominate those around you.
And you seem to know a lot about jail life, did you do time?
By the way, it's called being bisexual, but I don't expect for you to be able to comprehend that.
You still haven't made any arguments to back up how one is "turned" gay. Normal people know that this is not possible, because they have had conversations with gay people, and because lots of research has been done in the area.
And no, I don't remember the Roman Empire, it was a little before I was born. However I have read extensively about Ancient Rome, and will now briefly try to educate you about "homosexuality" in Ancient Rome, but it is probably a lost cause seeing that your IQ is quite low.
Homosexuality in Rome had nothing to do with love between two men, it was an activity that citizens engaged in to assert their masculinity through domination over others. Sexual relations between citizens was not acceptable, only sex with male slaves and non citizens was considered acceptable.
What we are defending is the right for a human being to love who they love without the fear of persecution, what you are defending is the right to dominate others, much like the citizens of Rome did when they raped male slaves. So in an amusing turn of events, it turns out you have some things in common with the citizens of Rome, you too wish to control and dominate those around you.
Awkward effort to persuade me that i m an idiot? Good one, but failed one.
I dont understand what you are trying to say? Human rights? C mon we have Edward Snowden and Julian Assange and they can be strongly disagree with that.
And your shouts about ignorance and idiotism as i think clearly shows who was the propaganda target. I just had enough fun with that
I dont understand what you are trying to say? Human rights? C mon we have Edward Snowden and Julian Assange and they can be strongly disagree with that.
And your shouts about ignorance and idiotism as i think clearly shows who was the propaganda target. I just had enough fun with that
You are a joke, everyone in here has asked you directly how someone is "turned" gay, and you are still to answer this question that your whole argument rests on.
I'm not surprised that you are not able to understand what I'm saying, as you appear to be both unintelligent and ignorant. Not a good combination when trying to participate in a discussion about human rights.
I'm not surprised that you are not able to understand what I'm saying, as you appear to be both unintelligent and ignorant. Not a good combination when trying to participate in a discussion about human rights.
I'd also like to point out in your argument that prohibition doesn't stop drug addition, nor does it stop the consuming of drugs, and it increases all kinds of other bad externalities.
Portugal has legalized many drugs for a while now - http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/evaluating-drug-decriminalization-in-portugal-12-years-later-a-891060.html
Results so far are positive.
Portugal has legalized many drugs for a while now - http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/evaluating-drug-decriminalization-in-portugal-12-years-later-a-891060.html
Results so far are positive.
I have an answer. IMHO you can turn straight person into a gay by persuading him it is better than straight. In Thailand every handsome guy can count on being turned into a girl(surgery) and marry some rich foreigner. It s not my opinion, I ve been there.
For three or four posts i m trying to answer this question - you can be turned into a gay with the "vox populi".
For three or four posts i m trying to answer this question - you can be turned into a gay with the "vox populi".
snocompton
Active member
Dropping some knowledge from reddit
"What you have to understand is that Russia is a very conservative country that never got around to a proper, linear sexual revolution with more things gradually becoming more acceptable. There also weren't any "waves" of feminism, as women were granted all rights and responsibilities right after the revolution and there wasn't the sort of gradual acceptance like there was in the West. Those things are related. Homosexuality was only decriminalized very recently, and taken off the list of mental illnesses very begrudgingly without much public debate around the issue. When the Soviet Union started falling apart, pretty much everything was instantly allowed, porn, prostitution, all at once were out in the open like a shock wave, so the sexuality of a typical Russian is a really weird thing.
You're expected to get married and have kids, the younger the better. There is a lot more involvement of your parents and grandparents in a traditional Russian family, many people even live with their parents after getting married and having kids, because realty is very expensive. At the same time, there is a sort of neurotic sexuality everywhere. Russians are very promiscuous. Infidelity is excepted, divorce is almost guaranteed. Sex is supposed to be that thing men do to women, too, which is a remnant of the former, more conservative times. Sex is somehow both a taboo humiliating act done to another person and a normal thing. You're expected to be sexually active, but at the same time, you're also shamed for it quite a lot. The image of any sexual deviation from a certain norm is pretty much a caricature. People confuse transsexuals, homosexuals and pedophiles, too. And this is in a country where you're not even supposed to look weird.
The prison culture also has a very strong influence. Lots of people, even educated people, know prison slang and basic laws and rules of prison life. One of those laws is that, basically, the guy who's at the end of the food chain is supposed to take it up the ass. That is a very shameful thing.
Then there is the concept of "tolerance" which is almost a swear word in the media. Basically, to distance us from the west, we are told that the West is on decline, because they allow various minorities more rights than "normal people", and they allow women too many rights, so their birth rates are down and they'll all be replaced with Arabs soon. Demographics is a very important issue here, because the population is aging and dying out. There is a derogatory term "tolerast" which is a combination of tolerant + pederast, that describes someone who would allow themselves to be dominated by all those "lesser" beings. The remnant of the idea of an outside enemy who wants to destroy mother Russia by making it weak is pretty strong, too, and a strong Russia is something people want. Then there is the issue that this is a poor country and people have a lot of bigger problems than simple social acceptance. Basically, if you can't afford to raise your children, you still have to live with your mom at 30, and your hospital has rats and no central heating, you don't have the capacity to worry about someone's feelings. Human rights activists are viewed as rich, sheltered fools like those people you might see on/r/TumblrInAction. There isn't much of an open discourse.
A whole series of laws appeared at approximately the same time, and I personally think they're a reaction to a strong forming opposition: any organization with foreign funding is supposed to register as a "Foreign agent", which does pretty much nothing, mostly affects charities and makes them seem like CIA spies; you may no longer "offend people's religious feelings", which was written specifically after the Pussy Riot thing; and then there's the law forbidding "propaganda of homosexuality and pedophilia to minors" which was later changed to "denying traditional values". Basically, it's a pretty strong ideological attack on people who aren't happy with the current government. You don't like something? You're an American spy and you want to molest children and you also take it up the ass."
"What you have to understand is that Russia is a very conservative country that never got around to a proper, linear sexual revolution with more things gradually becoming more acceptable. There also weren't any "waves" of feminism, as women were granted all rights and responsibilities right after the revolution and there wasn't the sort of gradual acceptance like there was in the West. Those things are related. Homosexuality was only decriminalized very recently, and taken off the list of mental illnesses very begrudgingly without much public debate around the issue. When the Soviet Union started falling apart, pretty much everything was instantly allowed, porn, prostitution, all at once were out in the open like a shock wave, so the sexuality of a typical Russian is a really weird thing.
You're expected to get married and have kids, the younger the better. There is a lot more involvement of your parents and grandparents in a traditional Russian family, many people even live with their parents after getting married and having kids, because realty is very expensive. At the same time, there is a sort of neurotic sexuality everywhere. Russians are very promiscuous. Infidelity is excepted, divorce is almost guaranteed. Sex is supposed to be that thing men do to women, too, which is a remnant of the former, more conservative times. Sex is somehow both a taboo humiliating act done to another person and a normal thing. You're expected to be sexually active, but at the same time, you're also shamed for it quite a lot. The image of any sexual deviation from a certain norm is pretty much a caricature. People confuse transsexuals, homosexuals and pedophiles, too. And this is in a country where you're not even supposed to look weird.
The prison culture also has a very strong influence. Lots of people, even educated people, know prison slang and basic laws and rules of prison life. One of those laws is that, basically, the guy who's at the end of the food chain is supposed to take it up the ass. That is a very shameful thing.
Then there is the concept of "tolerance" which is almost a swear word in the media. Basically, to distance us from the west, we are told that the West is on decline, because they allow various minorities more rights than "normal people", and they allow women too many rights, so their birth rates are down and they'll all be replaced with Arabs soon. Demographics is a very important issue here, because the population is aging and dying out. There is a derogatory term "tolerast" which is a combination of tolerant + pederast, that describes someone who would allow themselves to be dominated by all those "lesser" beings. The remnant of the idea of an outside enemy who wants to destroy mother Russia by making it weak is pretty strong, too, and a strong Russia is something people want. Then there is the issue that this is a poor country and people have a lot of bigger problems than simple social acceptance. Basically, if you can't afford to raise your children, you still have to live with your mom at 30, and your hospital has rats and no central heating, you don't have the capacity to worry about someone's feelings. Human rights activists are viewed as rich, sheltered fools like those people you might see on/r/TumblrInAction. There isn't much of an open discourse.
A whole series of laws appeared at approximately the same time, and I personally think they're a reaction to a strong forming opposition: any organization with foreign funding is supposed to register as a "Foreign agent", which does pretty much nothing, mostly affects charities and makes them seem like CIA spies; you may no longer "offend people's religious feelings", which was written specifically after the Pussy Riot thing; and then there's the law forbidding "propaganda of homosexuality and pedophilia to minors" which was later changed to "denying traditional values". Basically, it's a pretty strong ideological attack on people who aren't happy with the current government. You don't like something? You're an American spy and you want to molest children and you also take it up the ass."
artfullydodged
Active member
You guys should stop shitting on this kid. While most of you, myself included, disagree with what he's saying we can still take away some insight from his points.
Nortsx probably shares these views with a majority of his demographic in Russia so lets actually think about what he is saying here and maybe we can bring him to our side instead of just calling him an idiot? Lets review the relevant points he's making.
1. He doesnt want to "eradicate gays"
Okay that's good
2. Doesn't want to see them on TV
IDK if this is actually relevant, just change the channel dude.
5. "I didn't feel anything to girls 'till i became 14 or 15 or smthn, i suspect that children point of view to being natural can be changed to gay"
Yea this opinion is pretty stupid knowing what we know, but read between the lines. Nort's statement implies that he has formed his own opinion about how people are "changed to be gay." (i.e. nobody is directly educating him about this) I doubt anyone is showing him (and I havent seen anyone in this thread do so) sources to back up what they're saying and so he gets his opinion from what he hears and decides on his own.
So here nortsx
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/10/23/homosexuality--choice-born-science_n_2003361.html
This article covers a variety of reasons that homosexuality is likely an inherent biological trait as well as arguments that one's environment can influence when and to what degree they act on their homosexuality.
The choice to support their equal rights, or in this case just to demonstrate for those rights, begins with understanding that Homosexuality on tv or is not going to turn anyone gay that isn't already gay. Stop thinking of them as "people who chose to be gay" and start thinking of them as "people".
Nortsx probably shares these views with a majority of his demographic in Russia so lets actually think about what he is saying here and maybe we can bring him to our side instead of just calling him an idiot? Lets review the relevant points he's making.
1. He doesnt want to "eradicate gays"
Okay that's good
2. Doesn't want to see them on TV
IDK if this is actually relevant, just change the channel dude.
5. "I didn't feel anything to girls 'till i became 14 or 15 or smthn, i suspect that children point of view to being natural can be changed to gay"
Yea this opinion is pretty stupid knowing what we know, but read between the lines. Nort's statement implies that he has formed his own opinion about how people are "changed to be gay." (i.e. nobody is directly educating him about this) I doubt anyone is showing him (and I havent seen anyone in this thread do so) sources to back up what they're saying and so he gets his opinion from what he hears and decides on his own.
So here nortsx
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/10/23/homosexuality--choice-born-science_n_2003361.html
This article covers a variety of reasons that homosexuality is likely an inherent biological trait as well as arguments that one's environment can influence when and to what degree they act on their homosexuality.
The choice to support their equal rights, or in this case just to demonstrate for those rights, begins with understanding that Homosexuality on tv or is not going to turn anyone gay that isn't already gay. Stop thinking of them as "people who chose to be gay" and start thinking of them as "people".
casual
Active member
That's a really politically correct and "fair" thing to say!....Oh wait, someone's already posted the appalling statistics/polling specifically related to the average Russian's attitudes towards homosexuals and it confirms that no one's making sweeping generalizations. It's easier to believe that a fringe group of backwards thinking politicos and aristocrats at the upper crust have thrust these laws and attitudes on an unwilling, tolerant populace, but all you have to do is actually read to see that it isn't true. You can argue that there has been an organized, systematic campaign to sway public opinion negatively about homosexuality I guess, but at the end of the day, the vast majority of Russians condemn gays outright.
74% of Russians when asked, "Should homosexuality be accepted in society" answered no. There's a lot more data than that (I think 10% or so out and out believe that gays should be "eradicated").
So, for you to totally pull that statement out of your ass sounds and looks good superficially, but it isn't true. But please, tell me how making "sweeping generalizations" about a group whose members denounce homosexuality at a 3 to 1 clip is the same.
74% of Russians when asked, "Should homosexuality be accepted in society" answered no. There's a lot more data than that (I think 10% or so out and out believe that gays should be "eradicated").
So, for you to totally pull that statement out of your ass sounds and looks good superficially, but it isn't true. But please, tell me how making "sweeping generalizations" about a group whose members denounce homosexuality at a 3 to 1 clip is the same.
casual
Active member
I have no idea what that has to do with what I said, or how it's relevant, but I'm totally against the drug war....soooo? I am 100% against the criminalization of drug addicts. It's a public health (and mental health frankly) issue, not a criminal one, and my opinion comes from extensive personal experience.
My point was and is only that there is a pervasive attitude in Russian culture that homosexuality is due to a lack of moral fortitude and speaks to someone's lack of character. They have a "just say no" attitude and view gays as plotting and insidious looking to push their "agenda" and corrupt their children.
I was only using drugs as an example, as in most people agree that living life as an active, physically dependent drug addict is inherently "bad" (bad as in consequences, not as in an evil sense), and it seems like Russians have that sort of thinking attached to homosexuality....that it's a choice and a behavior as opposed to a state of being/existing. Maybe it was a clumsy analogy at the time, but I think you inferred something that I never meant/don't believe.
Being gay isn't bad, and is no way inherently less than being heterosexual (though of course it is potentially more difficult because of certain stigmas and lingering negative views, biases, etc etc), whereas living totally bodily and mentally addicted to substances that cause irreparable harm and is tied to an incredibly dangerous and miserable lifestyle is, in my and many others' opinion, bad. I was saying that Russia treating homosexuality as if it were a drug problem is ludicrous; not saying that I think the US's drug war policies are appropriate or effective.
My point was and is only that there is a pervasive attitude in Russian culture that homosexuality is due to a lack of moral fortitude and speaks to someone's lack of character. They have a "just say no" attitude and view gays as plotting and insidious looking to push their "agenda" and corrupt their children.
I was only using drugs as an example, as in most people agree that living life as an active, physically dependent drug addict is inherently "bad" (bad as in consequences, not as in an evil sense), and it seems like Russians have that sort of thinking attached to homosexuality....that it's a choice and a behavior as opposed to a state of being/existing. Maybe it was a clumsy analogy at the time, but I think you inferred something that I never meant/don't believe.
Being gay isn't bad, and is no way inherently less than being heterosexual (though of course it is potentially more difficult because of certain stigmas and lingering negative views, biases, etc etc), whereas living totally bodily and mentally addicted to substances that cause irreparable harm and is tied to an incredibly dangerous and miserable lifestyle is, in my and many others' opinion, bad. I was saying that Russia treating homosexuality as if it were a drug problem is ludicrous; not saying that I think the US's drug war policies are appropriate or effective.
Really the first guy which i can say even read my posts, and thought about them. Thank you man now i can really have a dialogue
1)I really share the point of view, btw i have a gay friend and have nothing to say to him and not judging him from the point "I am straight and you are not", it s just stupid
2)About TV... At first I want to say you - we don t have such a great system which you have in america, where you can watch as many channels as you can. To tell the truth i don t watch TV, i am more about Internet, btw the conversation is not about it
3)You won t believe: I am thinking about gays as "people who was born like this"
4)I m not against even educating peoiple that gays are biological trait, not a disease, i am not a biomediucal scientist to proof or refute it. I am just talking about the thing which i ve really seen - some freaks starts to think that gays are cool and fashionable, and feeling themself twisted after that. I am strongly against that. You was born as a homo - it s not a problem. I was born straight - neither. But if you was born as a homo and starting to do gay parades - society wont accept it anyway.
1)I really share the point of view, btw i have a gay friend and have nothing to say to him and not judging him from the point "I am straight and you are not", it s just stupid
2)About TV... At first I want to say you - we don t have such a great system which you have in america, where you can watch as many channels as you can. To tell the truth i don t watch TV, i am more about Internet, btw the conversation is not about it
3)You won t believe: I am thinking about gays as "people who was born like this"
4)I m not against even educating peoiple that gays are biological trait, not a disease, i am not a biomediucal scientist to proof or refute it. I am just talking about the thing which i ve really seen - some freaks starts to think that gays are cool and fashionable, and feeling themself twisted after that. I am strongly against that. You was born as a homo - it s not a problem. I was born straight - neither. But if you was born as a homo and starting to do gay parades - society wont accept it anyway.
Brule.
Active member
About TV, we get it! There are different systems around the world. What determines if you're gay is based upon what gender you're sexually attracted to, not a biological trait. You don't have to be a scientist to prove that it's not a disease, it's anyone who can understand it and say, "Okay, I get it." Also, people who think that gays are cool are not "freaks"- they're normal people who think that any human should live normally whether if they're straight, gay, have an illness, or a physical and/or medical disorder. I know this because I know two girls who are bisexual. If there were any gay pride parades wherever anyone lived, yes society would accept it except people like you.
My god you've proven to everyone on NS that you're difficult to understand that gays want to live normal like everyone else in this world and they want to marry whoever they want without being criticized or facing discrimination.
My god you've proven to everyone on NS that you're difficult to understand that gays want to live normal like everyone else in this world and they want to marry whoever they want without being criticized or facing discrimination.
artfullydodged
Active member
Dude I'm just confused by this whole idea you have of gays trying to turn other people gay? It doesn't make any sense.
Maybe it s hard to understand but i really have an examples
We have a blue mafia on the TV, if you want to work on the TV and you are a handsome guy, you have to have sex before you ll be allowed to work on the TV. I am strongly AGAINST that. This is like my rights being reduced by someone s other rights, so it is not cool. And as someone posted from reddit gays represent demographical problems and we are really care about it.
We have a blue mafia on the TV, if you want to work on the TV and you are a handsome guy, you have to have sex before you ll be allowed to work on the TV. I am strongly AGAINST that. This is like my rights being reduced by someone s other rights, so it is not cool. And as someone posted from reddit gays represent demographical problems and we are really care about it.
In case you haven't noticed, there is a pretty big divide between the Muslim world and the "West", partly because of human rights and religious issues, partly because of geopolitical issues.
Our mistake was to consider Russia, at least at a values level, part of the western world. That was probably premature as this thread helps illustrate. The problem is that you view homosexuality as something inherently wrong, and before that stops, there will not be any progress on the issue. I respect the fact that Russia is a country with huge social and economic problems, and that this contributes to the homophobic culture, but that doesn't mean that I'm not going to speak my mind, and defend human rights.
And to top it off, you have actually misunderstood the very premise of Human Rights. It most certainly CANNOT differ from nation to nation, it is a set of principles that are universal, and that have been agreed upon in the UN, where Russia is a member. The fact that many countries choose to ignore them to some extent does not mean that they are not there, and that they are not valid. You should read some more before making your wild and completely incredible claims.
Our mistake was to consider Russia, at least at a values level, part of the western world. That was probably premature as this thread helps illustrate. The problem is that you view homosexuality as something inherently wrong, and before that stops, there will not be any progress on the issue. I respect the fact that Russia is a country with huge social and economic problems, and that this contributes to the homophobic culture, but that doesn't mean that I'm not going to speak my mind, and defend human rights.
And to top it off, you have actually misunderstood the very premise of Human Rights. It most certainly CANNOT differ from nation to nation, it is a set of principles that are universal, and that have been agreed upon in the UN, where Russia is a member. The fact that many countries choose to ignore them to some extent does not mean that they are not there, and that they are not valid. You should read some more before making your wild and completely incredible claims.
I think drugs got into it because people are saying if you desire not to be a drug addict you stop using drugs.but if you no longer desire to be homosexual or lgbt if you stop engaging in that behavior you are still
lgbt and not true to yourself.
if you replace homosexuality with beastiality. would it be more of a addiction or who you really are?
Sounds like a lot of you have issues with the ioc giving the games to a homophobic country.
I'd let the ioc know how you feel and urge them to consider that in future host city consideration.
If you really want to show them you should boycott the oylmpics
do not watch
do not start threads
do not talk about it on your social media.
like that gonna happen
In the end I think russia will prob end up doing the same thing the business disguised as a church of latter day racist and present day homophobes and the state of ut with their whackey laws ended up doing which is sit down shut the fuck up realize the eyes of the world are upon you and hope in the end people remember your oylmpics as sucessful and you would be considered to be honored to hold the planets most prestigious athletic
contest again
lgbt and not true to yourself.
if you replace homosexuality with beastiality. would it be more of a addiction or who you really are?
Sounds like a lot of you have issues with the ioc giving the games to a homophobic country.
I'd let the ioc know how you feel and urge them to consider that in future host city consideration.
If you really want to show them you should boycott the oylmpics
do not watch
do not start threads
do not talk about it on your social media.
like that gonna happen
In the end I think russia will prob end up doing the same thing the business disguised as a church of latter day racist and present day homophobes and the state of ut with their whackey laws ended up doing which is sit down shut the fuck up realize the eyes of the world are upon you and hope in the end people remember your oylmpics as sucessful and you would be considered to be honored to hold the planets most prestigious athletic
contest again
CKpolicy
Active member
Also, im glad you assumed that i "totally pulled that statement out of my ass to look good superficially", because i definitely did not work an internship during college with a bunch of russian exchange students, one of whom was gay. Nor did i get to know said russians, or talk to them about where they came from at all. I just said that to look cute for you, baby.
casual
Active member
I'm not writing a fucking term paper, dipshit. If you care at all, google it. There are multiple sources and studies (worldwide) that examine cultural and societal differences in levels of acceptance of homosexuality. I don't care if you believe me or not, it's just funny to me that you tried to play some role of being above it all and thinking in a really broad way when you were actually dead wrong.
But, yeah...my "sketchy unreliable sources" are definitely less valuable than your anecdotal experiences with foreign exchange students.
But, yeah...my "sketchy unreliable sources" are definitely less valuable than your anecdotal experiences with foreign exchange students.
CKpolicy
Active member
Dead wrong about what? All i said was not every Russian hates gays, and claiming that they do is fucked up. Even if the number you provided wasn't bullshit, the remaining 26% still means i'm not "dead wrong". But holy shit man, maybe you can write for vice someday! You can write gritty articles that prove people like me are just soft, baby powder pussies who want to push political correctness for the sake of making friends and holding hands. And you can include polls in your articles,global ones, but wont source them, because this aint no fucking term paper, and the readers can just google that shit anyways. and we'll all look back and say "damn, that casual guy, what an american hero, i wish i listened when he told me that the russians were all bigoted cunts". Right?
poundmyvag
New member
If a group of people believes that something like gay marriage is degrative to socioty then to force its legality on them is, in a way, opression.
Do you think herion and cocain should be legal because its illegality would be to opress heavy drug addicts?
I personally think gay marriage is fine, but i dont think its an inalienable right, the point is that there should be a vote, and if the vote and the want of the people is that gay marriage should be illegal, then its thier democratic right to make it illegal.
Do you think herion and cocain should be legal because its illegality would be to opress heavy drug addicts?
I personally think gay marriage is fine, but i dont think its an inalienable right, the point is that there should be a vote, and if the vote and the want of the people is that gay marriage should be illegal, then its thier democratic right to make it illegal.
poundmyvag
New member
Exactly how much retard logic did you have to apply to assume that the holocaust naturally followed? Was it alot? i think it was alot...
Whoops, sorry I was totally trying to back you up. I really liked your point about bringing in the drug thing, as the key point here is that blocking something is ineffective and bad.
I was trying to talk about something else so as to not engage myself in a political debate on the internet.
Bottom line, you're doing good. Banning things is stupid, because you actually make whatever you're trying to get rid of worse.
Acceptance is key.
I was trying to talk about something else so as to not engage myself in a political debate on the internet.
Bottom line, you're doing good. Banning things is stupid, because you actually make whatever you're trying to get rid of worse.
Acceptance is key.
http://www.stephenfry.com/2013/08/07/an-open-letter-to-david-cameron-and-the-ioc/
Stephen Fry sums it up so incredibly well, that every time someone says anything in support of the Russian laws, I will simply post this letter.
Stephen Fry sums it up so incredibly well, that every time someone says anything in support of the Russian laws, I will simply post this letter.
KZA
Active member
Very relevant article on the front page of ESPN, I suggest checking it out.
I'm probably going to get hated on for this too, but I don't think this is as clear cut of a thing as everyone is making it out to be. While there is a biological tendency or predisposition towards sexual orientation, everyone is acting like it is completely separate from societal conditions and is a permanent thing. Someones upbringing and their social environmental can play a huge role in somebodies sexual orientation. I'm not saying Will & Grace turns people gay, but there is a reason people commonly say they are "confused" -- It is a tricky topic and in my opinion isn't the same thing as race/gender. You are born black or white and you absolutely can't change that. Sexual orientation is something that CAN change overtime and something people have to figure out on their own. Although I believe the LGBT community is as deserving of civil rights and protection as anyone else, I think it is asinine to deny that there isn't some element of preference to the decision. Just as I have a preference for blonde girls over brunettes. But that is someone's decision and their decision alone, I have no right to force my agenda on them and shame on Russia for enforcing this law during what is to be a an event to show world unity and peace.
(I love gay people in a non-gay btw, so don't take this as hate, just my 2 cents to the dialogue)
I'm probably going to get hated on for this too, but I don't think this is as clear cut of a thing as everyone is making it out to be. While there is a biological tendency or predisposition towards sexual orientation, everyone is acting like it is completely separate from societal conditions and is a permanent thing. Someones upbringing and their social environmental can play a huge role in somebodies sexual orientation. I'm not saying Will & Grace turns people gay, but there is a reason people commonly say they are "confused" -- It is a tricky topic and in my opinion isn't the same thing as race/gender. You are born black or white and you absolutely can't change that. Sexual orientation is something that CAN change overtime and something people have to figure out on their own. Although I believe the LGBT community is as deserving of civil rights and protection as anyone else, I think it is asinine to deny that there isn't some element of preference to the decision. Just as I have a preference for blonde girls over brunettes. But that is someone's decision and their decision alone, I have no right to force my agenda on them and shame on Russia for enforcing this law during what is to be a an event to show world unity and peace.
(I love gay people in a non-gay btw, so don't take this as hate, just my 2 cents to the dialogue)
poundmyvag
New member
What i meant was that your comment was completely irrelevant from the comment you replied too.
Byron_tha_gr8
Active member
Yeah you are telling the entire world what to do by continuing to enforce these laws during the olympics. If you are going to continue to enforce them on other countries, the international community is going to react.
casual
Active member
stopped reading when you walked back your original post. You claimed people were making broad sweeping generalizations about the beliefs of average Russians. The reality is that Russians, at a 3 to 1 clip, believe homosexuality should be rejected by society. You made a dumb, uninformed post chastising people for being just as bad as a group of people who dehumanize gays. Whatever other pathetic personal attacks or whathaveyou you went on about for another ten sentences mean fuck all to me.
Dear Prime Minister, M Rogge, Lord Coe and Members of the International Olympic Committee,
I write in the earnest hope that all those with a love of sport and
the Olympic spirit will consider the stain on the Five Rings that
occurred when the 1936 Berlin Olympics proceeded under the exultant
aegis of a tyrant who had passed into law, two years earlier, an act
which singled out for special persecution a minority whose only crime
was the accident of their birth. In his case he banned Jews from
academic tenure or public office, he made sure that the police turned a
blind eye to any beatings, thefts or humiliations afflicted on them, he
burned and banned books written by them. He claimed they "polluted" the
purity and tradition of what it was to be German, that they were a
threat to the state, to the children and the future of the Reich. He
blamed them simultaneously for the mutually exclusive crimes of
Communism and for the controlling of international capital and banks. He
blamed them for ruining the culture with their liberalism and
difference. The Olympic movement at that time paid precisely no
attention to this evil and proceeded with the notorious Berlin Olympiad,
which provided a stage for a gleeful Führer and only increased his
status at home and abroad. It gave him confidence. All historians are
agreed on that. What he did with that confidence we all know.
Putin is eerily repeating this insane crime, only this time against
LGBT Russians. Beatings, murders and humiliations are ignored by the
police. Any defence or sane discussion of homosexuality is against the
law. Any statement, for example, that Tchaikovsky was gay and that his
art and life reflects this sexuality and are an inspiration to other gay
artists would be punishable by imprisonment. It is simply not enough to
say that gay Olympians may or may not be safe in their village. The IOC
absolutely must take a firm stance on behalf of the shared humanity it
is supposed to represent against the barbaric, fascist law that Putin
has pushed through the Duma. Let us not forget that Olympic events used
not only to be athletic, they used to include cultural competitions. Let
us realise that in fact, sport is cultural. It does not exist in a
bubble outside society or politics. The idea that sport and politics
don't connect is worse than disingenuous, worse than stupid. It is
wickedly, wilfully wrong. Everyone knows politics interconnects with
everything for "politics" is simply the Greek for "to do with the
people".
An absolute ban on the Russian Winter Olympics of 2014 on Sochi is
simply essential. Stage them elsewhere in Utah, Lillehammer, anywhere
you like. At all costs Putin cannot be seen to have the approval of the
civilised world.
He is making scapegoats of gay people, just as Hitler did Jews. He
cannot be allowed to get away with it. I know whereof I speak. I have
visited Russia, stood up to the political deputy who introduced the
first of these laws, in his city of St Petersburg. I looked into the
face of the man and, on camera, tried to reason with him, counter him,
make him understand what he was doing. All I saw reflected back at me
was what Hannah Arendt called, so memorably, "the banality of evil." A
stupid man, but like so many tyrants, one with an instinct of how to
exploit a disaffected people by finding scapegoats. Putin may not be
quite as oafish and stupid as Deputy Milanov but his instincts are the
same. He may claim that the "values" of Russia are not the "values" of
the West, but this is absolutely in opposition to Peter the Great's
philosophy, and against the hopes of millions of Russians, those not in
the grip of that toxic mix of shaven headed thuggery and bigoted
religion, those who are agonised by the rolling back of democracy and
the formation of a new autocracy in the motherland that has suffered so
much (and whose music, literature and drama, incidentally I love so
passionately).
I am gay. I am a Jew. My mother lost over a dozen of her family to
Hitler's anti-Semitism. Every time in Russia (and it is constantly) a
gay teenager is forced into suicide, a lesbian "correctively" raped, gay
men and women beaten to death by neo-Nazi thugs while the Russian
police stand idly by, the world is diminished and I for one, weep anew
at seeing history repeat itself.
"All that is needed for evil to triumph is for good men to do
nothing," so wrote Edmund Burke. Are you, the men and women of the IOC
going to be those "good" who allow evil to triumph?
The Summer Olympics of 2012 were one of the most glorious moments of
my life and the life of my country. For there to be a Russian Winter
Olympics would stain the movement forever and wipe away any of that
glory. The Five Rings would finally be forever smeared, besmirched and
ruined in the eyes of the civilised world.
I am begging you to resist the pressures of pragmatism, of money, of
the oily cowardice of diplomats and to stand up resolutely and proudly
for humanity the world over, as your movement is pledged to do. Wave
your Olympic flag with pride as we gay men and women wave our Rainbow
flag with pride. Be brave enough to live up to the oaths and protocols
of your movement, which I remind you of verbatim below.
Rule four: Cooperate with the competent public or private
organisations and authorities in the endeavour to place sport at the
service of humanity and thereby to promote peace.
Rule six: Act against any form of discrimination affecting the Olympic Movement.
Rule 15: Encourage and support initiatives blending sport with culture and education.
I especially appeal to you, Prime Minister, a man for whom I have the
utmost respect. As the leader of a party I have for almost all of my
life opposed and instinctively disliked, you showed a determined,
passionate and clearly honest commitment to LGBT rights and helped push
gay marriage through both houses of our parliament in the teeth of
vehement opposition from so many of your own side. For that I will
always admire you, whatever other differences may lie between us. In the
end I believe you know when a thing is wrong or right. Please act on
that instinct now.
Yours in desperate hope for humanity
Stephen Fry
I write in the earnest hope that all those with a love of sport and
the Olympic spirit will consider the stain on the Five Rings that
occurred when the 1936 Berlin Olympics proceeded under the exultant
aegis of a tyrant who had passed into law, two years earlier, an act
which singled out for special persecution a minority whose only crime
was the accident of their birth. In his case he banned Jews from
academic tenure or public office, he made sure that the police turned a
blind eye to any beatings, thefts or humiliations afflicted on them, he
burned and banned books written by them. He claimed they "polluted" the
purity and tradition of what it was to be German, that they were a
threat to the state, to the children and the future of the Reich. He
blamed them simultaneously for the mutually exclusive crimes of
Communism and for the controlling of international capital and banks. He
blamed them for ruining the culture with their liberalism and
difference. The Olympic movement at that time paid precisely no
attention to this evil and proceeded with the notorious Berlin Olympiad,
which provided a stage for a gleeful Führer and only increased his
status at home and abroad. It gave him confidence. All historians are
agreed on that. What he did with that confidence we all know.
Putin is eerily repeating this insane crime, only this time against
LGBT Russians. Beatings, murders and humiliations are ignored by the
police. Any defence or sane discussion of homosexuality is against the
law. Any statement, for example, that Tchaikovsky was gay and that his
art and life reflects this sexuality and are an inspiration to other gay
artists would be punishable by imprisonment. It is simply not enough to
say that gay Olympians may or may not be safe in their village. The IOC
absolutely must take a firm stance on behalf of the shared humanity it
is supposed to represent against the barbaric, fascist law that Putin
has pushed through the Duma. Let us not forget that Olympic events used
not only to be athletic, they used to include cultural competitions. Let
us realise that in fact, sport is cultural. It does not exist in a
bubble outside society or politics. The idea that sport and politics
don't connect is worse than disingenuous, worse than stupid. It is
wickedly, wilfully wrong. Everyone knows politics interconnects with
everything for "politics" is simply the Greek for "to do with the
people".
An absolute ban on the Russian Winter Olympics of 2014 on Sochi is
simply essential. Stage them elsewhere in Utah, Lillehammer, anywhere
you like. At all costs Putin cannot be seen to have the approval of the
civilised world.
He is making scapegoats of gay people, just as Hitler did Jews. He
cannot be allowed to get away with it. I know whereof I speak. I have
visited Russia, stood up to the political deputy who introduced the
first of these laws, in his city of St Petersburg. I looked into the
face of the man and, on camera, tried to reason with him, counter him,
make him understand what he was doing. All I saw reflected back at me
was what Hannah Arendt called, so memorably, "the banality of evil." A
stupid man, but like so many tyrants, one with an instinct of how to
exploit a disaffected people by finding scapegoats. Putin may not be
quite as oafish and stupid as Deputy Milanov but his instincts are the
same. He may claim that the "values" of Russia are not the "values" of
the West, but this is absolutely in opposition to Peter the Great's
philosophy, and against the hopes of millions of Russians, those not in
the grip of that toxic mix of shaven headed thuggery and bigoted
religion, those who are agonised by the rolling back of democracy and
the formation of a new autocracy in the motherland that has suffered so
much (and whose music, literature and drama, incidentally I love so
passionately).
I am gay. I am a Jew. My mother lost over a dozen of her family to
Hitler's anti-Semitism. Every time in Russia (and it is constantly) a
gay teenager is forced into suicide, a lesbian "correctively" raped, gay
men and women beaten to death by neo-Nazi thugs while the Russian
police stand idly by, the world is diminished and I for one, weep anew
at seeing history repeat itself.
"All that is needed for evil to triumph is for good men to do
nothing," so wrote Edmund Burke. Are you, the men and women of the IOC
going to be those "good" who allow evil to triumph?
The Summer Olympics of 2012 were one of the most glorious moments of
my life and the life of my country. For there to be a Russian Winter
Olympics would stain the movement forever and wipe away any of that
glory. The Five Rings would finally be forever smeared, besmirched and
ruined in the eyes of the civilised world.
I am begging you to resist the pressures of pragmatism, of money, of
the oily cowardice of diplomats and to stand up resolutely and proudly
for humanity the world over, as your movement is pledged to do. Wave
your Olympic flag with pride as we gay men and women wave our Rainbow
flag with pride. Be brave enough to live up to the oaths and protocols
of your movement, which I remind you of verbatim below.
Rule four: Cooperate with the competent public or private
organisations and authorities in the endeavour to place sport at the
service of humanity and thereby to promote peace.
Rule six: Act against any form of discrimination affecting the Olympic Movement.
Rule 15: Encourage and support initiatives blending sport with culture and education.
I especially appeal to you, Prime Minister, a man for whom I have the
utmost respect. As the leader of a party I have for almost all of my
life opposed and instinctively disliked, you showed a determined,
passionate and clearly honest commitment to LGBT rights and helped push
gay marriage through both houses of our parliament in the teeth of
vehement opposition from so many of your own side. For that I will
always admire you, whatever other differences may lie between us. In the
end I believe you know when a thing is wrong or right. Please act on
that instinct now.
Yours in desperate hope for humanity
Stephen Fry