Knee Bindings and Park (After Use Review)

mattskie

mattskie

Member
I'm more of a video watcher than an active poster, but I feel like this needs to be said.

I told some of you that I would reply on my previous post when I had shredded the knee bindings, and let you know how they were. Well, let me be the first to tell you that they suck.

I originally spoke with John and he told me that knee bindings prerelease less than other types, and to definitely use my reccomended din setting of 7. I have no had dins lower than 10 in god knows how long, but I obliged. A few runs of quite literally popping out on every feature (and I do mean every). I cranked them down to 10. A few more runs, this is my first day mind you, and I only pop out a few more times. I attribute this to my first day. Then I stomp my first backflip of the year. Only to pop out and bruise the shit out of my tail bone.

Alright. Something is up. I landed that. I finish the day, and set the skis aside for a few weeks as it hurts to even sit. Next time I go out I crank them down to 12, and there is little change.

This past weekend I released after landing airs in main park in mammoth five times. I fell on three 360s, and two lincolns. I did fall a few times learning threes back in the day, but I never, in my life, have fallen on a lincoln. They're my favorite rotation. I have it on film, back to back hits. If i upload the video I will reply with a link, but it is almost funny at my fall.

I land. And the skis come off. I land straight, no problems. Watching in very slow motion, you see me land and my skis just come off. They are basically the same video, two more falls that shouldn't have been.

The second one caused my left ski to slice open my left pant leg, sick. Brand new LD pants, awesome. and my leg on that side is bruised/cut up. It sucks.

Enough is enough. Thankfully I bought them at REI so I can return this god awful binding. Great concept, poor implementation. Just ordered a pair of Rossi FKS 14s. Hopefully will have more luck. This was somewhat of a rant, but to those of you that were thinking aboutj these bindings, all i can say is DONT
 
They released a park edit and the designer was on these forums telling everyone they were absolutely up to the job of park riding.

THANKYOU SO MUCH FOR THIS THREAD. I'd been wanting to buy a pair just to confirm my suspicions that they are a pos
 
You realize it's still in a prototype type stageand is not meant for park skiing?

idk why you bought them in the first place, I mean just looking at them you should've known
 
The binding has been on the market as a final production model for about 3 years now. My old shop was one of the first to sell them. John Springer Miller has mentioned they would be a good choice for park use. Hopefully he can comment here to the OP's experience with the binding.
 
I watched the edit, and spoke extensively with John. every kid I grew up riding with (well, almost everyone) has fucked their knees one way or another. I don't want that to happen (knock on wood) so I thought I would give these a shot. They didn't hold up, I can see why. if you dont land perfectly straight, ie, some motion going to the right and/or left coupled with the force of landing on jumps that are 40-50ft, they will release. These forces would be similar to the ones that blow knees, and do the binding edjects. It may potentially work for someone who lands like wallisch on every feature, but at least for me I need a little wiggle room..and these bindings lack that. I don't know how those guys on UVT were staying in at all in that edit, I'm so banged up from using them
 
I had the option of riding with them picked up and straight away no, so friggen heavy
 
i feel like a lot of people already knew they sucked, as you said it is a good idea but executed terribly. I would not feel safe on them at all.

knee bindings should only be used by older groomer skiers with previous knee injuries that are afraid of normal alpine bindings, which they shouldn't be, and are willing to buy into a gimmick

give me a pair of sth or fks any day, they will be safer and more durable
 
Hey I don't doubt that you've had issues with prerelease on the KneeBindings, but it sounds to me that something isn't set right. I've used KneeBindings on my skis for the past 2 years, and before that I used Look PX12s. Also I want to put it out there that I've worked with KneeBinding, so I may be biased some, and I'm also the one who filmed the UVM KB edit that you mentioned. I have KneeBindings on both my Line Prophet 100s, and Klint Pures, and my boots are 2 year old Nordica Sparks (superchargers).

The KneeBindings can be a sensitive binding and I find if your toe height, forward pressure, or din are off, it can ruin your day. Also an old worn boot can cause issues with prerelease. I would make sure that these are properly adjusted by a certified tech. When you've had release problems have they been lateral toe, lateral heel or forward heel releases? Have your prerelease's been landing forward or switch? Also which model do you have?

The guys at KneeBinding are also supporters in the concept of the "3+" skier type (this is a somewhat new concept in the world of what insurance and liability). If I was a type 3 skier my suggested din would be a 7, but as a 3+ my suggested din is actually an 8.5 (I rounded up to 9). When I skied at a 7 I had some issues with pre release sometimes when I knuckled jumps or landed back seat, but once the guys at Kneebinding suggested that I was in the 3+ category I've had much better retention.

I'm not a very aggressive park skier but I try to push my limits in the trees and bumps. If I was to spend the majority of my time in the park, and I wasn't worried about injury I may opt for a freestyle binding such as the FKS, It's a metal binding and has a higher din rating. But at this stage in my life a knee injury would be devastating to me, so I'm going to stick with the KBs.
 
JSM 2/15/12

Hi all,

We are distressed to know that Mattskie had problems with

KneeBindings. This is highly unusual for us, and we are

anxious to get to the bottom of it. There

are a variety of possibilities, but I would hate to speculate. It is better if we get these bindings back from

REI so that we can test them and find out exactly what happened to them in this

specific situation. I will commit to

reporting back here once we find out.

Meanwhile, we are quite certain that KneeBindings don’t “suck,”

and we are confident that this community will not condemn our product because one skier had a bad

experience. If that were the measure of

success and failure, you would have condemned ALL bindings, because there are plenty of people that have had bad experiences on every kind

of binding out there. In fact, we are clearly in the minority when it comes to bad experiences.

Properly mounted and adjusted KneeBindings have the best

elasticity in the industry, and KneeBindings DO have less pre-release than

ordinary bindings, for a variety of solid, technical reasons. Mattskie’s experience is distressing – but it is

simply not indicative of a typical KneeBinding experience.

As you pointed out, Mattskie, KneeBindings are “burly” – the

metal parts are all machined from 100% USA stainless steel – not stamped out

from cheaper metals. We use the best

industrial resins available, and we offer the world’s only carbon fiber

binding. Many people expect them to be

heavy, but despite the fact that we have a complete, third release mechanism

(with spring, cams, etc), the weight is actually about the same as a pair of

jesters – all of our models weigh less than 5 lbs. The Look Pivot 14 is also a plastic binding

(despite some misunderstanding about this) and weighs about the same.

Mattskie, I am really sorry you’ve had a bad experience, and

your frustration is very apparent. But I

am quite certain that it isn’t a design issue, nor is there anything inherently

wrong with KneeBindings. I encourage you

to help us figure out what happened!

John Springer-Miller

KneeBinding, Inc.
 
It actually is the design john. I will go out on a limb and say that there is a reason no one in the Tahoe basin mounts knee bindings. It is not because they are "new", but because there are problems with the design.

For example, for some reason the heel is higher than the toe, even with the raiser you sent me. You go out of your way for the customers, and props for that. The bindings however, have issues.

Another problem is the way the toe is designed. There is a bunch of space below it. I assume this is for the lateral release. Problem. If you land and carry some motion in the horizontal direction, you will eject. It is very simple. This problem isn't present for people outside of the park, but in the park you don't always land with only forward momentum. Take for example a lincoln loop. When you land you will usually have some motion still in the way you set the spin. This will cause an ejection because this motion is not on the same axis as your foward motion.

Thats your problem. Rossi FKS bindings have a swiveling heel, designed to aid in the release of skis WHEN YOU NEED THEM TO POP OFF. They don't pop off all the fucking time with dins set at 11. That is absolutely ridiculous. Since switching to Rossi FKS I have released one time. I no longer pop out after every jump, or rail, etc etc. I no longer fall on tricks I mastered years ago. *knock on wood*. Your bindings simply aren't designed for freestyle, and regardless of the edit from UVermont, you should state that they aren't designed with that in mind.

And I don't know where you get your statistics that knee bindings pre-release less, but I would really like to see your source, or actual measurements (which would be almost impossible to measure). So I also think you should stop stating that, because there is no underlying basis of fact behind it.
 
JSM 3/1

Mattskie – I appreciate this feedback. However, I respectfully, but completely,

disagree with many of your statements.

Our ramp delta is deliberate, and has many advantages. In addition, we make lifters (and now,

canting kits as well) so that skiers can ramp the binding at any level they

want – including into negatives. Almost

all bindings have some ramp. We’ve found

it to be a great way to help skiers get the right balance, given different

kinds of skiing (i.e. powder), different boots (which have ramp varying from 3

to 7 degrees, which is many times more than our bindings), and different bodies

(boot length, weight distribution, balance, etc). By offering a RANGE of ramp delta from 6mm to

negative 3mm, we cover every situation.

No other binding offers that.

The space under to forward edge of the boot toe has no

function other than to allow snow to clear, and to further reduce the effect of

the binding on the flex of the ski. It

does not interact with the boot.

As for releasing sideways at the toe – our toe releases with

the same force other bindings do – presuming they are all adjusted the same way

and calibrated, and working properly.

Our toe has more elasticity than most, which acts like a shock

absorber. The turntable on the FKS does

not have much to do with the reliability or function of the toe piece. It is there so that the side bars/lugs on the

heel piece do not inhibit the toe release.

The toe release of EVERY binding works because the ski rotates around

the heel of the boot.

Your conclusion that our bindings weren’t designed for

freestyle also seems unfair – or at least is irrelevant. We did not specifically focus on freestyle

when we designed KneeBindings, but we did take the sport into account. On the other hand, your FKS bindings were

designed 30+ years ago – before freestyle existed. Whether you like them for freestyle or not –

the FKS bindings was absolutely NOT designed with freestylers in mind.

I completely understand that you have a bad experience, and

I am also very unhappy about that.

However, your experience is unusual, and I see no justification for you to determine that our design

is somehow flawed. Knowing what I know, I

am fairly certain that something is wrong with your specific pair of bindings

(some kind of internal damage?), or with how they were adjusted (forward

pressure, toe height, etc) or mounted (alignment, whatever). I don’t

know what’s wrong, but I would very much like to examine them, and put through

our testing process, to see what we can determine.

We have always been straight forward and open with information,

and we will be about this as well.

But – we have to test the bindings.

We are, as you said, very focused on customer service. I am trying to reach out to get to the bottom

of your situation.

Yours,

John Springer-Miller

KneeBinding, Inc.
 
Nothing unusual there bro.JSM has an interesting marketing strategy, you see instead of getting these bindings into the hands of pros/racers/industry figures for them to give their opinions he devotes his time to finding every knee-binding topic on all of the major ski sites and replying to them all personally.

 
aww shit man i bought some marker 7 dins the otherday and i ejected sending it off a 50 foot cliff! so bullshit! never buy this binding!
 
hence why this thread is so fucking dumb... " i bought some fks 18s for my 8 year old and he blew his knees! never buy fks 18s!"
 
Your statements don't contribute anything to this thread, you're probably 13 though so i wont hold it against you.

John, maybe the fks were designed 30 years ago, maybe they werent. im not going to look into binding history to argue with you. i will go with what i already know:

no shop in tahoe mounts knee bindings, one of the premier ski locations in north america.

no pro rides on knee bindings.

i ejected on every invert/off axis move i tried at the beginning of this season, leaving me baffled and thinking i completely sucked.

bought fks, removed said knee binding, mounted fks and.... landed everything. but im sure thats a miracle. [weird...]

bindings were done at the only place they could be mounted (rei). not only did you personally assure me that they ejected less than normal bindings (you told me not to go above 6) but so did the rei tech. i gave you the benefit of the doubt, tried, was ridiculous. ejected on rails, nearly raping my tailbone with one. went back to rei, they readjusted to 11, same-ish problems.

i apologize for saying your bindings are garbage, but you cannot say they work in the park. im not here to bash you, just to give others a decent understanding of knee bindings. i will have you note that there has not been one person who has said they have have a good experience with them on this thread, or anywhere else. only "testimony" on your website.

sorry your product sucks, not every product is designed for every facect of the sport. ie, you dont take out hellbents when its icy as fuck. i will go as far as to say you dont place kneebindings on your ________ and expect to stay in when you huck yourself.

that is all.
 
I'm not here to take sides but the only thing I will offer up is that John is correct that the FKS (turnable heel piece design) is over 30 years old.

By simply looking up LOOK bindings on wiki you can see this;http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Look_bindings_from_N17_to_89.jpg
 
If its not broken, why fix it? I like what you guys are trying to do, and I feel like your product is great for and intermediate or and older rider who is worried about knee injuries, but for an aggressive park/big mountain rider it seems like these bindings just don't hold up.
 
Most bindings have a delta angle, including the FKS. I love how these KB guys criticize the FKS, how professional! Who the f##k doesn't care about injuries, what kind of statement is that? My FKS' and Look Pivot's don't come off unless they need to. One blown ACL is enough for me, and I still ride quality bindings.
 
lol, wish i was 13 again, dont see the point of my previous post? my point is its like a racer doing a test on a marker 7.0, this bindings is pretty fucking obviously not marketed to park skiers, but rather those that help keep the industy alive - blue run cruisers.
 
thats where you're wrong, you see this is newschoolers, when one person has a bad experience everyone hops on the hate train and that product is condemned, prime example is first drop outerwear.
 
True

Also +k to OP and the KneeBinding guy.

You both raised important points.

Don't want to say but i'm a Tyrolia fan through and through
 
10944063:Skiingsnow said:
aww shit man i bought some marker 7 dins the otherday and i ejected sending it off a 50 foot cliff! so bullshit! never buy this binding!
Click to expand...

I am 145 pounds and 5 foot 8 inches, ski a medium sized park and I love my marker free 10's.

I keep the din at 8ish and never eject unless i take a really bad fall.

I personally don't understand why some people hate on the lighter bindings marker makes.

In my opinion every binding has a purpose, and even if the Kneebinding took freestyle into hand when designing they just don't hold up. I think that the Kneebinding could be a quality binding for other skiiers such as people who are worried about injuries and all mountain skiers. If we just excepted that all bindings are not versatile, and different people are going to need bindings that fit there needs and what kind of skiier they are, the skiing world would be much better off.

Just my nine cents.
 
if you bought and had these mounted at rei

they should of done a complete binding calibration test w/ your boots

and the results of this test to insure they release w/in industry standards

should be recorded and documented

3+ is a joke as are knee bindings and at that point you should just sign a wavier and crank your dins and make sure your health insurance is good
 
Since there is a clear amount of bias in this thread, I will contribute. I live in the East coast around Okemo, Loon, Sunapee, etc, and Knee bindings are fairly common for a new binding company in this area. My home mountain (Sunapee) actually had bought a few knee bindings and gave them to the ski staff to test the product. My ski coach (Park coach) decided to give them a try. He is not a small dude and knows how to ski hard. The guy kills it everywhere (Junior nationals moguls finalist I believe). So he slapped them on and a season later, He has not had one problem with them. Riding at a din of 9.5(?) throwing cork 10s and 2 on and ripping moguls, he had no problem. They are beefy, yes, and they could definitely use some modifications to have a better suited park binding by slimmer design, or something, but there was no problem for someone who also competes in big air and rail jam events, and wins, when using the Knee bindings.

The amount of bullshit in this thread is unbelievable. THe only one who can give any solid statement about the product is the OP and the poeple who have used them (or have talked to people like me). I have witnessed perfect cork 9 tails being thrown on these bindings and there was no problems. If you really trash them without knowing your shit, then you should not contribute to a thread like this where real testimony matters.

Since I don't want to seem bias myself, I will say that when he used them at the recommended din, he had his ski eject on kink rails. After he raised the din, there were no problems.
 
The position in which tom wallisch tore his ACL..... just saying.
ZNE2OO.png
 
13177021:parkplayground said:
Since there is a clear amount of bias in this thread, I will contribute. I live in the East coast around Okemo, Loon, Sunapee, etc, and Knee bindings are fairly common for a new binding company in this area. My home mountain (Sunapee) actually had bought a few knee bindings and gave them to the ski staff to test the product. My ski coach (Park coach) decided to give them a try. He is not a small dude and knows how to ski hard. The guy kills it everywhere (Junior nationals moguls finalist I believe). So he slapped them on and a season later, He has not had one problem with them. Riding at a din of 9.5(?) throwing cork 10s and 2 on and ripping moguls, he had no problem. They are beefy, yes, and they could definitely use some modifications to have a better suited park binding by slimmer design, or something, but there was no problem for someone who also competes in big air and rail jam events, and wins, when using the Knee bindings.

The amount of bullshit in this thread is unbelievable. THe only one who can give any solid statement about the product is the OP and the poeple who have used them (or have talked to people like me). I have witnessed perfect cork 9 tails being thrown on these bindings and there was no problems. If you really trash them without knowing your shit, then you should not contribute to a thread like this where real testimony matters.

Since I don't want to seem bias myself, I will say that when he used them at the recommended din, he had his ski eject on kink rails. After he raised the din, there were no problems.
Click to expand...

Well this confirms OP has made a thread to tell everyone he doesn't know how to set up his bindings
 
13177021:parkplayground said:
My home mountain (Sunapee) actually had bought a few knee bindings and gave them to the ski staff to test the product. My ski coach (Park coach) decided to give them a try. He is not a small dude and knows how to ski hard. The guy kills it everywhere (Junior nationals moguls finalist I believe).
Click to expand...

is paddy your coach?
 
My biggest surprise is that people in this thread think they are burly. They feel like they are made out of ribbon candy.
 
I wonder if OP's boot soles are in good condition. If there's any play or serious wear and tear, that might be enough to be a huge issue.

That said, it doesn't matter that the FKS weren't designed for freestyle--they were designed for downhill racing. Though I don't know all the forces involved or have a table handy, I'd imagine that the forces involved in rocketing down sheets of ice at 80mph are somewhat similar to skiing big park jumps or hitting urban, and the popularity of the binding backs that up. Sure, Pivots or FKS have horrible brakes, a really narrow mounting pattern, and some small but essential parts that can blow up without proper care, but they remain a popular choice because they work.
 
13208025:Literature said:
I wonder if OP's boot soles are in good condition. If there's any play or serious wear and tear, that might be enough to be a huge issue.

That said, it doesn't matter that the FKS weren't designed for freestyle--they were designed for downhill racing. Though I don't know all the forces involved or have a table handy, I'd imagine that the forces involved in rocketing down sheets of ice at 80mph are somewhat similar to skiing big park jumps or hitting urban, and the popularity of the binding backs that up. Sure, Pivots or FKS have horrible brakes, a really narrow mounting pattern, and some small but essential parts that can blow up without proper care, but they remain a popular choice because they work.
Click to expand...

The fore/aft mounting pattern on the heel might be smaller than most other bindings, but until pretty recently, pivots had the widest mounting pattern of any binding on the market, which combined with the new, wider AFD, made them pretty solid, laterally, for how minimal looking of a binding it actually is. I'll be the first person to say that the heel is an old design, and is definitely not as stiff laterally as some newer bindings, or even the PX racing heel, but that's not why I have pivots on all my skis. I have yet to find another binding that offers the combination of retention and elasticity the pivots have with such a low stack height and ramp angle. The last thing I want when sliding rails or hitting big jumps is an extra centimeter of material under my foot, adding extra leverage to the edges of my skis, decreasing margin of error, and hindering feel for the rail/snow.
 
The p18 skis better than any other binding - it's why so many people only ski it.

If you couldn't tell that knee bindings suck, you probably have never heard of the line reactor.
 
13208535:Justo8484 said:
The fore/aft mounting pattern on the heel might be smaller than most other bindings, but until pretty recently, pivots had the widest mounting pattern of any binding on the market, which combined with the new, wider AFD, made them pretty solid, laterally, for how minimal looking of a binding it actually is. I'll be the first person to say that the heel is an old design, and is definitely not as stiff laterally as some newer bindings, or even the PX racing heel, but that's not why I have pivots on all my skis. I have yet to find another binding that offers the combination of retention and elasticity the pivots have with such a low stack height and ramp angle. The last thing I want when sliding rails or hitting big jumps is an extra centimeter of material under my foot, adding extra leverage to the edges of my skis, decreasing margin of error, and hindering feel for the rail/snow.
Click to expand...

13208552:cobra_commander said:
The p18 skis better than any other binding - it's why so many people only ski it.

If you couldn't tell that knee bindings suck, you probably have never heard of the line reactor.
Click to expand...

Amen. I own and use two pairs of P18s.
 
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