JUDGING COMPS: your turn to help us progress our sport!!!

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popadonna

Member
instead of hearing how bad a comp was judged on the internet for days, i decide to see if you guys were down to submit your opinions and ideas about how we judge these events... this is meant to be a SERIOUS attempt to let you voice your opinion and that way, may have an affect on how we look at comps.

NOTE: for the haters... FUCK OFF!!!! im not interested to hear your opinion about how dubs suck and shit, just constructive criticism about how we can improve to help progress the sport...

my background: i have been judging some of the major events in europe (london freeze, barcelona snow show; finnish, austrian, and european opens, etc...) i am also a tm over here for some brands, so i am involved with the scene quite well... personally, i am in the mik d school of judging and prefer style over tech (such as c-van's butter cork 5 in london, or anything lolo throws in a B.A.) so that puts me on the other side of the fence compared to most of the tech judges that are out there. some of the best guys that i have worked with are mike atkinson, josh loubeck, and mr. steeze himself... evan raps!!!!

but now its time for you to have a say and hopefully there will be some sick feedback that i can use and take back to the other judges...
 
And is this you asking for an opinion on how comps should be judged? Sorry, the wording is a little weird to me
 
no worries... not how, they already have a pretty strong basis on what to look for and what the format is (even though most comps change it around a lot)

but, more like some ideas about what you would look for if you were judging... i mean the obvious things like direction of spin, style, grab, and tech we already have an idea about... i mean whats your opinion about things like zero's vs. dubs, or creativity, and how much should be awarded for that, etc...

didn't mean to make it sound like we have no clue, but you'd be shocked how much shit we take because homey didn't win with his dub and shit... just watch andreas's or elias's face at euro x, they were shocked to be lower than they thought they were...
 
The only zero that i really enjoyed in a comp was lolo in the us open mhmm 4 5 years ago when he did the zero and the huge cork 5 all the way to the bottom of the landing. Cause tj and derek spong were just throwing the ol switch 1080
 
for sure lolo kills it... that is what i mean though. dubs are starting (or will become) stock, just with more variations than the sw 10 and then trips will start up (although they will need bigger jumps/more airtime, so that rules out any of the inner-city comps shared with snowboarding)

i personally try to keep the style and fluidity (slope and pipe) as my main focus points, but shit is startin to get large!!!!! i wouldn't have wanted to take on the x games as a judge, those boys were sweatin it for days...
 
i feel like comps are always going to be about throwing the biggest tricks with style secondary. points are awarded for cleanliness of the landing, etc and that is where big tricks can come back to bite. but you are never going to watch x games (or comps like it) and see slow, stylish tricks that will win, you will see dubs, and now, triples.

what i personally really want to see is a totally new contest format. someone should organize a comp that favors style over spin. like whoever can throw down the smoothest, steeziest run would get judged the best. all these guys are having their own comps, sammy carlson invitational, dumont cup, ect. guys like lolo, vanular, b dog, ect should step up and organize their own comp, like slopestyle, but the judges look for the most stylish tricks. i think a lot of people (99% of ns who complain about this.) would be really interested and it would be so sick to watch.
 
thanks for your input... you are very correct. however, they tried to do that in snowboarding with the air & style events, and those didin't really work out to well. but, you are right, and that is why sammy went for his event, the fact that he could build and compete the way he wanted to... PROPS

it would be sick to see phil, henny, vanular, spriggs, lolo, etc... step it up and divide the line a bit. bet those contest would be super sick!!!! gonna bring that up with them, thanks...

or even newschoolers should step it up and throw a style comp somewhere????? ya hearin me schmuck????? haha
 
Question: For most people, when they are spinning switch, they naturally spin unnatural. So when somebody spins unnatty switch, do you count that as natural or still unnatty?
 
uhhhh.... your confusing me!!!! j/k

yes, anything that is against their natural motion of spinnin is generally the hardest way to spin, especially sw (depends sometimes on how you are jumpin, or what rotation/grab it is) so we defo take that into consideration (you actually see it alot on the rails at this level)... we usually are pre-educated about who spins which way, but generally, it is not too hard to figure that shit out, as there are not many guys that actually have the big tricks to all four ways... (except lolo, he is an enigma wrapped in a mystery!!!! can be hard tryin to figure what the fuck he throws!!! and then, you are like damn... what the fuck did we just see???) sometimes we have replays to help, but most of these comps are broad-casted, so they dont allow us much time to get our scores in...
 
I think it would be better to possibly have specified rounds, such as round 1 - best style, round 2 - best tech, and round 3 - biggest trick. A format like that would truly sort out the great riders from the good.

 
taking shit really fucking deep should be awarded. Love watching bdog in comps when he takes shit all the way to the bottom...shits redick.
 
that is something i really reward... so sick when it is stomped with like 10 or 15 ft of landing tranny left!!! no doubt!!!!!
 
i think it would be sweet to see a slopestyle contest with different jugding criteria on each jump. for example have one or to jumps judged on style and another one for tech. i think this would work best on a course like euro x where you have a bunch of different size jumps and rails
 
Just pick a winner. or many winners.

dont show me a chart with two digits to the right of the decimal point. stand up a declare a winner like a real man and let the haters hate. If people really want to count spins and flips and apply scales and formulas, then make judging a sport. because that sounds more complicated then actually skiing. The winner is always apparent, and if its not then you need better judges, not a better refined criteria.

but let me rant for a second. if we can accomplish 1 thing, make it so that we dont have to watch the reactions of the athletes as they wait at the bottom of the course in that little corral with a camera in their face. its always painful to watch. will he feign excitement or disappointment, the suspense is too much... oh he went with confusion. It's nothing more than face time, and it cheapens the whole experience of both watching and participating.
 
your points are totally valid, the winner should be apparent... however, judging is very subjective and is left open to their interpretation. so, depending on the judge can give you a varied range for the scores... a winner in one judge's mind, may not be the same with the others. then, there is the head judge to help keep that range and flow going (due to the timing) as most of the time, it is quite difficult to have an apparent winner... and although this doesnt help with consistency, it certainly helps keep it fresh. you probably wouldnt want comps that were so automatic that you already know what trick(s) would win... slopestyle favors big air in this manner due to the obvious format in which its presented. but big air is generally easier to judge due to having only one jump to analyze and score...

i totally agree about the camera time... but, everybody loves drama (at least that is what the tv producers feel) especially if its bad drama. it sucks though, as you can really feel the pain and anguish, and i am not a fan of that at all... but, as long as the sport continues to make strides towards to the masses, that is what we will have to endure... more drama = more intrigue = more $$$ (once again, not in my opinion)
 
i think if they had an event like this they should do it the same way they do the orage masters. no judges (no offense haha) but have other riders (some who are competing and some who are not) pick who has the best style. its not really a perfect system, i feel like we haven't figured out the perfect system yet, thats why we have this thread, but you're right (when they did it with snowboarding and it didn't work) it wouldn't work with judges. but i think that with the riders who know each other and ride with each other it would be different, just the way i see it. and i don't think it would have all the drama of xgames, dew tour, etc because its not a very important comp, i'd just be for fun (as if any skiing is fun, but whatever). i don't think any of these guys would take it really seriously, it would be more for the viewers than the actual riders.
and if this event actually ever went down somewhere, it HAS TO be broadcasted live, again like the masters or joi. i would even pay to watch this, i think a lot of people would too. newschoolers should have a live feed of this but charge like pay per view. it depends on who puts it on, but if newschoolers is involved it would probably cost them money, but if you were to ask every member of ns if they were interested in this event and would pay to see it live, 99% would say yes. a much much smaller percent would actually watch it, obviously, but it would still make them money, and for not really doing very much anyway. trying to make this like a business proposal to ns. i doubt this will ever happen and if it does, it won't be because of me, but i feel strongly about his and if you have pull in the industry, who better to talk to?
sparknotes: style comp judged by riders. live pay per view broadcast on ns.
 
i like the way the comps at zurich and berlin are judged. with a style and a tech trick. but i still think lolo should get more credit for his sw cork 7 screamin seamen and c-van should get more credit for his butter 9 blunt. and to make the comp more fun to watch it could maybe be nice if the landings wouldnt be so important, so we cold see massive 5s. no hate on henrik, he is my favorite skiier, but at berlin he did a 9 mute to japan, but i favour to see massive 5 blunts (although henriks 9 was pretty much perfect) and creativity should be rewarded allot more in my opinion.
 
you have made excellent points (except losing my job, haha) but actually, there are usually a few injured pros that are represented at most of the bigger events...(which is great, because they can see how hard it is to judge 70 runs, and they start to even learn their perspectives better) for example, jf... he judge a few events here in europe when he was injured, and i think, threw down much harder this year.

but in a more relaxed kind of atmosphere, there is certainly a better vibe... but, you have to remember about all those $$$ getting accounted for, and sponsors, and so on... there is quite a bit of mula being thrown down (especially over here in europe, where the euro x made a big splash) i think its the best way its starting to go now, because you are seeing more invitational type events as well... not just jon's, but sammy's and simon's, plus you are gonna see way more pros being able to pull that off, mostly with the resort's help and efforts. but, that is sick, because we are going to see bigger, better features, and more possibilities for riders... let's hope!!!!! or better yet, hope they listen...

once more, you are adding to a must do NS event... and that's how people can help and support the movement... like it or not, the industry is catering itself now to find it's image... AND, sites like these are of sometimes the true opinion!!! (except all those maggot fuckin hating trolls, go ride... instead of acting like dickhead douche bags!!!!)
 
that would also be sweet... but some guys have different ways to their style even, which can make things a bit difficult sometimes. that is why there can actually be so many factors to consider, even within each of those categories. guys like andreas and elias are solid stomping machines, with really strong flow... but sometimes they look so robotic compared to some of the others that sport more of a relaxed style. so it's hard sometimes to figure who you would place where, even though they did the exact same trick w/grab and all... i really enjoyed the log at x, that was so sick to see some guys slay that thing!!!! so there is a small bit of mixed criteria there, but you are right... it would be ill just to say one kicker couldnt spin over 5 or 7, then there could be the chance for more creativity and style. but most of the athletes mostly want to throw the 10's, 12's, and dubs (guess now trips too) because they can bring all their biggest tricks out... (which obviously can be sick too!!!)
 
alot of comps are still run that way, minus the biggest trick... usually third third round is to make up for the style, or tech worse score. they kinda go big with the style and tech tricks (different rotations of these dubs are gynormous is size, and extremely technical) what would you use as the criteria for biggest trick round??? just interested...
 
The style over spin comp would be cool but it could never be anything big with a lot of money involved. There is not much concrete involved. A style is style because it makes you different and some people will like it and some people wont. Some people think Henrik is the styliest motherfucker ever and some people totally hate the fact that he looks like the hunchback of notre dame. However, regardless of style you can tell that someone just did a huge right 10 blunt and that they held for 99% of the trick and then put it to their feet perfectly. Thats going to get you points because it had a good landing, tech trick, good grab etc. But a judge cant be like "his rotations were a bit to quick that was bad". Maybe a fun even put together by some of the athletes you stated above but never anything on a scale of x games or dew tour.
 
ya, henrik's 9 was ill (he had a little help there for the speed...haha) sammy's 9 was also ill, but henrik's was bit cleaner i thought. their format for this is pretty much the most favored format for a big air. but, i totally agree with you, vanular's butter blunts were off the chain (but, most of the riders were complaining that it shouldn't beat a dub, because this is easier to do... i was like fuck that, then do it as well, nobody else did) lolo is very hard to place, because his shit is so innovative. he really pushes creativity like no one else (my opinion) maybe there should be different categories within the comp itself to further reward that style of competing... would make it WAY more entertaining!!!
 
haha... amazing when you have non-ignant fools writtin all up in this!!!! naw, im passionate about our sport and the direction its going... plus, some of these concepts have really been on-point, so maybe that can help everybody understand things better.... including me!!!

you think this is bad, dont get me talkin about this shit face to face (especially when im a bit altered)... haha, poor raps got his ear talked off!!!

 
i think ski should be judged just like spring board diving. every dive had a DD (degree of difficulty) a single front flip in a tuck position has a DD of a 1.4 so the juges give it a 1-10 score and then times that by 1.4 a front flip in a strait position has a DD of a 1.5 so they times the score bu 1.5, and then a 2 1/2 in a tuck has a DD of 2.2 so they take the 1-10 score and times it by 2.2. so getting a 5 on a front flip but a 4 1/2 of a 2 1/2 the 2 1/2 would win becuase it has a higher DD.

longer version

Scoring System

Scores in all diving meets use a range from one to ten, in ½-point increments. The score of each dive is calculated by first adding the total awards of three judges. This is known as the raw score. The raw score is then multiplied by the degree of difficulty of the dive and you have the total diver’s score for the dive.

Diving meets must be scored using a minimum of three judges, but can be scored using as many as nine judges. Collegiate diving contests allow the use of two judges in a dual meets. Using the simplest method of scoring: when more than three judges are used, the highest and the lowest scores awarded are dropped and the raw score is determined by the remaining three awards. This same manner of determining the raw score can be used for a seven or nine member judging panel.

In most international competitions where a judging panel contains more than five judges, the dive score is calculated using the 3/5 method. This process involves multiplying the sum of the middle five awards by the degree of difficulty and then by .06. The result is the equivalent of a three-judge score.

Sample Scoring For a Five Judge Panel

Scores: 6.5, 6, 6.5, 6, 5.5, 6

Low (6.5) and High (5.5) Scores Dropped

Raw Score = 18.5 (6.5 + 6.5 + 6)

Raw Score (18.5) x Degree of Difficulty (2.0)

Total Score for the Dive = 37.0

Because of the subjectivity involved in judging, it is advisable to have more than three judges involved in a contest. This helps to eliminate any bias that one or more judges might have and give an accurate representation of dive.

Criteria for Judging a Dive

0: Completely Failed

½ - 2: Unsatisfactory

2½ - 4½: Deficient

5 - 6½: Satisfactory

7 - 8: Good

8½ - 9½: Very good

10: Excellent

Note: This is the FINA judging scale. High school and NCAA competitions use a slightly different scale.
 
I think that diversity should be scored higher. Between a super steezy sw 12 double grab and a dub 12 cork 12 mute or blunt? which do you think should score higher in a competition.
 
damn dude... THANKS!!!!!! this is a very efficient way to score... it would take some training to get that format perfected... but diving isnt scored for style, at least not like skiin... i mean the point system is good (and luckily there are sweet cpu systems hooked up to calculate/speed) but there is still the big question about the style... cause this way brings a more robotic way of relating, and i think to keep shit interesting and progressive, you need to have more emotion, and not so many restrictions. besides, if it were that easy to really spot these score categories, we wouldn't get too much of a range between the scores. sure, it would be more precise, but kinda automatic... and we really need the flair!!!
 
dont kid yourself, the public hasnt gotta clue!!!! they would rather see a backie, nice and big, because i think that it is something tangible for them to understand... they get lost in any dubs and have no real understanding about grabs, or style... and if you look out at the crowds in zurich, london, or barcelona, they are just there to see something new and exciting, plus usually the side-attractions (bands). look at simon's super man dub-front in zurich for the crowd award... that trick certainly would have not won it for the real comp... but this "uneducated" crowd is paying the bills for, plus we do win over more and more kids (future) over which actually get it(i think euro x was huge for this). plus, over here in europe, there has been more comps (and parks, for that matter) every year... i wont even mention the olympics... (could be a good thing, if the boys are able to throw down... just dont drug test!!! haha)
 
i know dude, i heard you... just have been getting great feedback from here, so i have been writing everyone back.

dub cork 12 mute to blunt!!!! ;)

no, i prefer the dub grabs (2 separate ones, as long as its clean and held for as long as possible), then some the actual dub, dub grabs like bobby's and russ (mute-japans)

BUT!!!!!! that being said... i will always in my heart love tha blunts!!!!!!! i said before that i was in the "mik d" school of judging. but some variations of the blunts dubs are a bit easier than the mutes, because of depending which way your body twists. if you are really crossed up, meaning rotating one direction, but grab with opposite body lean, that shit is extremely hard and looks ill when performed right... check out e'dollo's final slope run at euro x. his dub blunt underflip was off the hook!!!! so stylish, but extremely technical... (cant wait til he really starts to put that shit down, great variation and style to his run)
 
that is why guys like henrik, phil, and wallisch kill it so hard... the grab should be held all the way into the party afterwards!!!!! but for reals, i really think that you can show how well you OWN that trick by the length of grab (and how it is held, not just placement, but actual grip) and of course... the landing!!!! tom's euro x gold over bobby was because of his landings... he didnt look like he was even in the air, so much effortless touch, but stomped. heni has that advantage cause his gorilla steeze is in full effect!!!!! his body was actually built perfectly for a freestyle skier... not baggin', he just has long arms and short legs, which makes him more solid to grab and land. he is soooo ill, too bad he was layed up a bit last season!!! but he will show what he has next season fo sho!!!

at least we get more style given to us in the flix every year!!!!! not saying that is just where it belongs, because the jumps and course set-ups can be the best shit they have ever hit... other times the jumps/conditions suck, but hey that can be just like any day in the park... sometimes sick, other times shit!!!!

by the way... i think that the right 10 blunt is way harder then some of the 12's we see...
 
if you watchd the artic challenge last winter, thats a really good consept!!!

if you didnt watch it:

every singel jib (rails jumps etc...) count equal! like; on the rails there is a scale form 1-10, same on jumps... and when the run is finnished you will get a overall flowscore!

1.26 so you see what i mean! i really think this is a really great consept!! but it would be sick if a overall "style" and "tech" catogory was added, but that could be the "flowscore" if u like....

 
I read through just about this whole thread and there are some really good ideas in here. I am also into the style component, but like some people already said, that is a very subjective thing to judge. In my opinion, Jossi has got some of the best style on any feature, but most would the style of a guy like twall. This year at xgames, I was very happy with the judging, unlike competitions like the dew tour, where I am usually angry after watching it and it seems the judges look for something different each time. I have no complaints about xgames judging this year. In the big air, creativity and style were awarded in the midst of the most technical tricks we have ever seen. Bobby won with something very different, and Tj made it through to the final round with a super smooth double rodeo 9 thingy, that scored very high. In slopestyle, I was pleasantly surprised to see how high bdog scored, despite his lack of doubles he just missed the podium with pure style and fluidity. Bobby was not as technical on the rail section as others, but he was scored so high because his run was almost perfect. Overall this year, I dont think that style was overlooked, and tech was still rewarded. Like I said, its very hard to put out a big focus on style and award points for it, but I think the judging at Xgames going in the right direction.

That or we just do text voting.
 
style in skiing= the neatness of a dive a dive that has little splash and you go in nice and strait gets a hire score then something that looks sloppy
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oa41cHayvGU
flash_video_placeholder.png


what did you say?
 
no it dose not, when i dive i throw vary hard dives i do a 2 1/2 when every one else will throws nothing more then a a double but i usually don't win because even though my big DD dives get a more X score they don't look as good. but my friend Conner's dives are easier and look better so he wins.
 
yep... thanks for the vid. we have used this format on several occasions, including the flow score as well. personally, i find this format to work very well. i think it was actually based from the ttr, or the artic (thanks terje!!!) we have been able to categorize these into separate tech and style formats.

however, some formats are better suited to the style of comp, or tailored to suit the riders. i have found on several occasions when we are able to get some input from the riders (usually during the first training days) then we can alter some of the criteria about how we can judge it more effectively. a good dialogue between the judges and the riders can help solve some problems, as long is it is not suited to just the specific needs of specific riders.
 
ya, am very stoked to see the replies and ideas thrown on this thread, i agree, jossi kills it in every aspect of the game. he is prob the most solid, overall freestyle skier competing right now...

it is very hard to be able to describe why i feel one guy's style is better than the others (i try to be as subjective as possible, even though i have to fight my own personal style beliefs, such as zeros scoring as high as some of the more technical tricks) but hopefully, the judging booth is filled with guys that are at opposite ends of the spectrum to help insure all styles are judged as even as possible when scored together. i thought that most of the x games was spot on... dew tour was defo a different bag, however, since i was not in the booth to witness their reasoning, i can only reserve the right to my own opinion there. however, consistency was certainly missing, and i feel that was hurting the overall atmosphere of the tour a bit...

just thank goodness that we have so many styles that can keep us not only entertained, but wanting more!!!

i am not a fan of text voting at all... it gives way too much power to people that have no reason to be deciding the fate of these comps (unless it was for fun, not so serious of an event) plus, there is way too much bias towards their favorite riders...
 
even though i am not very educated in diving, or the difference of styles, there is no way that you can tell me that there is as many different things to comprehend with that of skiing... if neatness and splash is all, skiing brings neatness (control in air) and splash (stomps or ease of landings). however, skiing THEN adds the different grabs (even with the same trick) and the way/length of grab.... also you add in butters (not only to rails, but now in big airs as well) so i think that there is quite a few more things to look for, then in diving... that is why we have more freedom to be creative and free, compared to the regimental "standards" of difficulty and such.

your format would work perfectly for events such as H.O.R.S.E. and other ones that require all the riders to be judged starting from the same tricks, just scored according to how smooth they were able to preform these set tricks...
 
this is not a true statement... some sw tricks are not scored higher than forward spins... some people think that unatty forward 10's (usually rt side 10's) are some of the hardest, most tech tricks in the game... and sw unnatural tricks (especially the slower rotated ones) can also be harder than forward ones of the same caliber... it really depends on the trick and how it's thrown.
 
sorry turquoise, i already wrote a novel to your response, but this fucking medium erased it!!!!!! i will reply back to you after i go take some rips and vent a bit... haha
 
some sw tricks are harder, some forward tricks are harder... it really depends on which direction is natural (forward un-natty can be sometimes considered more difficult than sw un-natty) and mostly depends on the trick... i would say that where it matters most, is how the tricks are linked to demonstrate as much variety as possible (all four directions, linked without any re-verting)

but it is all based on opinion...
 
yep!!!!! lolo is god and we all do not deserve to even be on the same mountain as him!!!!!!!!!!

if it were up to me, he would be placed MUCH higher in results then he was... but, he is impossible to judge!!!!! it's like his balls are in the way, because they are sooo big!!!! (NO HOMO)

really though, lolo is completely unique!!!!!!! he is by far (prob c-van is 2nd) the most creative competitive freestyle skier... he is so amazing to watch, that i forget to judge him sometimes... haha you have to see like ten replays to figure out what the fuck he is doing...

but, a lot of the "newer" school of judges aren't very rewarding for his ways.... his screamin combos are some of the dopest things seen on skis, but are they really that tech???? i think so, but i am one of the few...

regardless, lolo is king!!!!! and i hope that he is not discouraged and is in more comps in the future... he is one our ambassadors!!!!!! i showed many of my snowboarding bros his tricks and they are like, "WHAT THE FUCK WAS THAT!!!!!"

so, if you are reading this mr. farvre, please stay in the hunt!!!!!!! we have a lot to thank you for...
 
with the judging you could have something along the lines of have someone or people judge specifically the overall style and have it so that weighs the same or a bit more than technicality

aesthetically pleasing tricks should score higher than hucked out spin to win with a mute grab
 
ok so i just read all the thread and first thanks everyone for all the props it means a lot and for sure i will try to continue the stuff i'm doing cause i love it and this is because this the way i love to ski!!!

second for the judgement i have a format in my event but i know it will never work on a big comp cause there is media and big sponsors. but in my event the format is we ride all the different features which are bigmountain, bc, rails and a big air and at the end of the week all the riders judge each others which means that the snowboarders have to choose on skier and one snowboarder for the win and the same with the skiers!

i know it will never happen but i think it's the best way to have fair results cause all the riders have been riding the features so the know the difficulties to ride those and i have been riding for 10 years now and when it comes to me to make an event the first point i made was that way of judging cause i was tired of the normal format. and all the riders who come to my event are really stoked on the result cause they don't have the pressure of being judge at the end of the week they all just shred the all week like if they were at a shooting and they give their best

thanks a lot

LOLZO
 
it would be cool if different grabs on every jump would get recognized more.
there are too many mute grabs in competitions imo.
and since every top skier out there has a big variety of dubs now we SHOULD DEFINATELY have this "STYLE" jump in EVERY slopestyle event, cuz otherwise it would end up with only dubs on jumps. (think about this years winter x slopestyle. bobby won because of his two dubs, and next year he would be able to throw a third one on the first kicker as well..)
but i think everybody would end up doing flat 5´s, maybe there could be a rule / judging system to prevent that.
 
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