Islam is Fundamentally Incompatible With Democracy.

J.D.

J.D.

Active member
Staff member
Discuss.

Muslim society has been described as 'A solid wall whose bricks support each other.' Will real democracy manage to take hold in Iraq (Or Iran, or other countries in the region), or is the religion that dominates the society too founded in social cohesiveness and not enough concerned with individuality, as something to be valued? This isn't a 'Bush' debate. It's more what you think about the muslim world itself. Insights?

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In short...

I believe that Muslim society is on a great many levels, incompatible with democracy. It is at best more apt to a democratic theocracy, hardly concurrent with our vision for the nation. The prevalance, and apparent willingness of the people to act in groups ready for conflict is of issue. I also think that Federalist Paper #10 plays heavily in this question. The Muslim world is deeply and inherently factionalized, and it is wishfully ignorant to assume that those factions will agree to cooperate, especially for a goal that is not of their own creation. The staunch and deeply rooted division among their society does not attribute to the success of a democracy. However, America had similiar divides; but, the key difference is that a huge majority of our people were united behind the idea of change, and we were willing to work that change into an effectual institution, that has survived a multitude of tests.

However, I would not be entirely surprised to see the installation of democracy, but I question the acceptance of that democracy by the Muslim people as a whole. All in all, I do not foresee an Americanized democracy as a plausible solution for the political ails of the Muslim world.

-AndrewP

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Per solitudinem ardere in remedium formidinis dictitabat.

'It is often said that the best remedy for fear is to burn alone.'

 
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I don't have time for this right now. But I'll get back to you. This is interesting...

You're still herding swine as a profession -Anewmorning

Dont start with me...

Ill get drunk tonite and make posts that will make your eyes bleed -Lord_Piot

But, you can always fall back on your degree in... Communications! Oh, dear Lord!

I know! Is phony major. Lubchenko learn nothing. Nothing!

Our greatest glory consists not in never falling. But in rising every time we fall.

 
Like the ignorant american fucks you are, you only ever get one side of any story: the american side. All major world religions facilitate peaceful cohabitation between people in a complex, stratified society. The only difference is really just religios dogma, the names are different but the message is the same. Islam recognises Moses and Elijah as prophets, denounces murder, theft and adultery and sets standards for clenliness, food preparation and ceremonial burial along with many many other similarities with Christianity. In conclusion, its not that different from other world religions and elections, free markets and freedom of expression do indeed exist in Mulsim countries. Americans are simply led to believe that muslims are barbarians.

ps I'm a baptized and confirmed roman catholic, I just take the things I read with a grain of salt instead believing whatever the newspapers tell me. I also do my own independant research from as many sources (even the 'wrong' side) as I can. The more I do this, the more I realize that people in general are repulsive morons.

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It's strange that you say that, because man muslim leaders have argued that their culture is totally unsuited to the fostering of democracy. There's also a lot of historical evidence to support it... when the USSR fell, democracy suddenly surged in many places where the USSR had influence previously, and even countries that didn't underwent some liberalization of their systems... but not the middle east. They didn't budge in policy. Could it be that Islam tends to promote social conditions that resist democratic consolidation, maybe? Not stating a position here, just trying to hear some opinions.

------------

In a haze

A stormy haze

I’ll be around

I’ll be loving you

Always

Always

Here I am

And I’ll take my time

Here I am

And I’ll wait in line

Always

Always...
 
Perez Mussaraf (sp), pres of Pakistan. Also said these words. That the Muslim world is the most backward, illeterate, violent, and unhealthiest societies on earth.

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^To be fair, though, is that really BECAUSE of Islam?

------------

In a haze

A stormy haze

I’ll be around

I’ll be loving you

Always

Always

Here I am

And I’ll take my time

Here I am

And I’ll wait in line

Always

Always...
 
I see. Although that's an interesting quote, though, I'd like to hear some real background on this. I mean, why does it tend not to work? Pakistan itself is a military dictatorship which was founded at the same time as India, one of the more remarkable democracies in the world (considering its population).

Andrew's answer made some sense, although I'm not sure how factionalized the society is? I mean, there are radicals, but there is also 'mainstream islam', which is really quite homogeneous in purpose and unified in principle. On the other hand, there is much dissent on what Islam is all about... Muslim leaders seem to agree that liberal democracy is anathema, but can't agree on the characteristics of a good 'Muslim State'. Any other insights?

------------

In a haze

A stormy haze

I’ll be around

I’ll be loving you

Always

Always

Here I am

And I’ll take my time

Here I am

And I’ll wait in line

Always

Always...
 
you people are really stereotypical and shit arent you? im muslim...yeah.....americans only get one side of the story...im american but im also muslim...and there are many religions worst than islam for example hinduism...ever heard of the caste system? worst thing ever...started by the ARYAN race and still exists....i would call that the most illiterate and stuff religion......but its all geography i think....but that one picture up there?what the hell is that? all religions have conquests....the christians killed thousands of people on there conquests......and even the catholic church did retarded things such as wich trials what the fuck is that bullshit? but to answer the question i dont really think democracy is possible over there...its not the islamic religion its the people....i know this by first hand experience and being a muslim

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oh yeah and jd...all religions have their radicals...its just that they had their radicals in earlier days...islam is a newer religion and hasnt had as much time as others

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Im not comparing any religions, I think all are basic CRAP. But If I were to rank them, Islam would not be near the top.

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^You're fucking kidding right?

You're still herding swine as a profession -Anewmorning

Dont start with me...

Ill get drunk tonite and make posts that will make your eyes bleed -Lord_Piot

But, you can always fall back on your degree in... Communications! Oh, dear Lord!

I know! Is phony major. Lubchenko learn nothing. Nothing!

Our greatest glory consists not in never falling. But in rising every time we fall.

 
Yet, India has a functioning democracy despite Caste being an important part of their society (check out Indian marriage classifieds if you don't believe me). I think you're being a bit stereotypical yourself with regard to Hinduism... the illiteracy in India certainly isn't noticeably worse than any other third world country. The point is, they have managed true democracy since 1947, whereas muslim states have rarely come anywhere near instituting democracy. We're not being stereotypical, these are empirical facts. Just trying to theorize on why.

------------

In a haze

A stormy haze

I’ll be around

I’ll be loving you

Always

Always

Here I am

And I’ll take my time

Here I am

And I’ll wait in line

Always

Always...
 
That was for Bristolrider.

You're still herding swine as a profession -Anewmorning

Dont start with me...

Ill get drunk tonite and make posts that will make your eyes bleed -Lord_Piot

But, you can always fall back on your degree in... Communications! Oh, dear Lord!

I know! Is phony major. Lubchenko learn nothing. Nothing!

Our greatest glory consists not in never falling. But in rising every time we fall.

 
That was to Bristolrider, and my comment on the existence of muslim radicals was in response to Andrew's assertion that the society was factionalized, which I'm not sure I now enough to agree with... so I was questioning it. I'm not saying Muslims are more radical than other religions (although there certainly are more than a few muslim radical groups).

------------

In a haze

A stormy haze

I’ll be around

I’ll be loving you

Always

Always

Here I am

And I’ll take my time

Here I am

And I’ll wait in line

Always

Always...
 
Muslim is what I would consider an old religon with a rich history. (around 1400 years old actually)

That's only a bit of a headstart on Christianity.

You're still herding swine as a profession -Anewmorning

Dont start with me...

Ill get drunk tonite and make posts that will make your eyes bleed -Lord_Piot

But, you can always fall back on your degree in... Communications! Oh, dear Lord!

I know! Is phony major. Lubchenko learn nothing. Nothing!

Our greatest glory consists not in never falling. But in rising every time we fall.

 
Dude, lets be brutally honest, there Christian, Jew, and Muslim radicals. But we all know that the Muslim radicals are in numbers that swamp the others.

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And what about the people 'over there' makes democracy impossible?

I'm curious to know.

You're still herding swine as a profession -Anewmorning

Dont start with me...

Ill get drunk tonite and make posts that will make your eyes bleed -Lord_Piot

But, you can always fall back on your degree in... Communications! Oh, dear Lord!

I know! Is phony major. Lubchenko learn nothing. Nothing!

Our greatest glory consists not in never falling. But in rising every time we fall.

 
yeah jd you are correct about muslim states being no where close to democracy but im providing an explanation for the radicals...mainly id have to say taht its because its a new religion...you know like all religions have had an age with many radicals...islam is having that age....i dont think democrracy there is possible for atleast 20 more years

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'dont fuck with me cause the last person that fucked with me....well they lived a pretty normal life'- misty7

'ok im gonnago play pocket tanks...the only game that runs on my computer'-cruz

'maybe i shold turn lesbien and get the girls'-misty7

'i can have sex with the snow'-misty7 on how winter will end his lonelyness
 
^yes and christianity started before christ right? just not in large numbers? im not too sure on taht but the jewish (hebrew) religion started back in ur about 2,000 bc and the basis for hinduism about 1500 bc

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'dont fuck with me cause the last person that fucked with me....well they lived a pretty normal life'- misty7

'ok im gonnago play pocket tanks...the only game that runs on my computer'-cruz

'maybe i shold turn lesbien and get the girls'-misty7

'i can have sex with the snow'-misty7 on how winter will end his lonelyness
 
The groundwork for Hinduism can be traced back to 3000BC. But I don't see how Christianity would have started 'just before Christ'... heh. Anyways, the idea that they're going through a radical phase is an interesting one. So there's nothing in the kinds of calues set forth by the religion (or not even the religion necessarily, just how it's interpreted; a lot of people have come to the conclusion that Sharia law has been altered significantly to benefit certain private interests) that's counterproductive tot he fostering of democracy? I find it difficult to believe that it's the people themselves, considering the range of muslim countries. I mean, Suharto in indonesia also argued that his society's value were too rooted in social cohesiveness for democracy to work. So I dont think it can be just the people... it's too big a geographic range.

------------

In a haze

A stormy haze

I’ll be around

I’ll be loving you

Always

Always

Here I am

And I’ll take my time

Here I am

And I’ll wait in line

Always

Always...
 
I think all religons have radicals. Not for a period. But constantly.

The problem is that, for example, the christian radical minority, isn't speaking for the majority of christians.

Unfortunately the muslim radical minority is speaking for the majority of muslims.

You're still herding swine as a profession -Anewmorning

Dont start with me...

Ill get drunk tonite and make posts that will make your eyes bleed -Lord_Piot

But, you can always fall back on your degree in... Communications! Oh, dear Lord!

I know! Is phony major. Lubchenko learn nothing. Nothing!

Our greatest glory consists not in never falling. But in rising every time we fall.

 
^ahhhhh your just tooo smart for me jd.....i guess its just those middleeasterners.....but i mean we do know why the palestinians and israelies fight......but why do other countries have all these car bombs? i mean in islam its all a 'brotherhood' as stated in the quran....muslims shouldnt be harming eachotehr....so you tell me why they all fight jd?

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member 9020

newbies are our future unless if we stop them now!

'dont fuck with me cause the last person that fucked with me....well they lived a pretty normal life'- misty7

'ok im gonnago play pocket tanks...the only game that runs on my computer'-cruz

'maybe i shold turn lesbien and get the girls'-misty7

'i can have sex with the snow'-misty7 on how winter will end his lonelyness
 
oh yea and word to what you said trevor

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member 9020

newbies are our future unless if we stop them now!

'dont fuck with me cause the last person that fucked with me....well they lived a pretty normal life'- misty7

'ok im gonnago play pocket tanks...the only game that runs on my computer'-cruz

'maybe i shold turn lesbien and get the girls'-misty7

'i can have sex with the snow'-misty7 on how winter will end his lonelyness
 
To the both of you... it's certainly true that minority religious sects are at odds with the mainstream. In fact, in Egypt, Syria and elsewhere, Muslim extremists have been arrested for, of all things, actions against the law of the Koran (so I don't think Dave is entirely right in saying that the radicals are speaking for the muslim majority). This is what I was saying, there is significant disagreement over what a good Muslim really is. In Pakistan in the early 90s, they asked a few dozen leading Islamic thinkers to define the religion and come up with the ideal muslim and ideal muslim state. They got such a huge variety of answers, they couldn't put together a satisfactory conclusion. So it's probably the disagreement over the specifics of the religion (and some of the broader notions, even) that are fueling contention between different muslims.

Heh, still wondering babout democracy here. That was the original question, anyone can post any thoughts on that, as well.

------------

In a haze

A stormy haze

I’ll be around

I’ll be loving you

Always

Always

Here I am

And I’ll take my time

Here I am

And I’ll wait in line

Always

Always...
 
jd to answer the question about an ideal muslim ill give it too you considering im a pretty good muslim....

-believe in the 5 pillars of islam

-respect OTHERS

-be curteous

its actually hard to say just because the 5 pillars explains it pretty well and what most people dont realize is that one of the 5 pillars is to believe in the books (bible, torah, and quran) and to believe in all the prophets (yes even jesus and moses)

dont go to new york. all it has to offer is i love ny stickers

member 9020

newbies are our future unless if we stop them now!

'dont fuck with me cause the last person that fucked with me....well they lived a pretty normal life'- misty7

'ok im gonnago play pocket tanks...the only game that runs on my computer'-cruz

'maybe i shold turn lesbien and get the girls'-misty7

'i can have sex with the snow'-misty7 on how winter will end his lonelyness
 
See, but that's very superficial. As I say, most prominent muslim thinkers and religious authorities can't come to a consensus on anything remotely specific... and if they can't, no one can. Anyways, though, that's not the point of the thread.

------------

In a haze

A stormy haze

I’ll be around

I’ll be loving you

Always

Always

Here I am

And I’ll take my time

Here I am

And I’ll wait in line

Always

Always...
 
^dude thats fuckin gay...its nothing alike...the kkk persecuted because of race.....the palestinians dont like the israelies because around 1500bc or 2000 bc they stole the philistines land which is now the palestinians.......and because of the holocaust in ww2 the us and other countries felt sorry and gave the hebrews the land...thats why they fight war

dont go to new york. all it has to offer is i love ny stickers

member 9020

newbies are our future unless if we stop them now!

'dont fuck with me cause the last person that fucked with me....well they lived a pretty normal life'- misty7

'ok im gonnago play pocket tanks...the only game that runs on my computer'-cruz

'maybe i shold turn lesbien and get the girls'-misty7

'i can have sex with the snow'-misty7 on how winter will end his lonelyness
 
im refering to the pic not you jd

dont go to new york. all it has to offer is i love ny stickers

member 9020

newbies are our future unless if we stop them now!

'dont fuck with me cause the last person that fucked with me....well they lived a pretty normal life'- misty7

'ok im gonnago play pocket tanks...the only game that runs on my computer'-cruz

'maybe i shold turn lesbien and get the girls'-misty7

'i can have sex with the snow'-misty7 on how winter will end his lonelyness
 
i think it can work, although we need to silence the people that preach radical islam. also i think the root of the problem is not having a bi partisan education, where they arenot just taught theocratic ideals and are taught about their religion but also about the way the rest of the world acts. I think a moreeducated and informed islamic people would realize that what these extremists preach is wrong, and is a bad representation of Islam.

I think a great model that shows secularism and religion can both coexist is lebanon before the israeli invasion, and malaysia, which is a very secular islamic republic. Also there is a large movement in Iran that yearns to be part of the western world although they are silenced greatly by their tyrannical government. It shows that islams youth want to be like the rest of the world instead of in a theocratic vacum, for when someone shaves a beard or lets a women wear what she wants that they get beaten, but rather a society where everyone is free to do what they would like

KNUCK IF YOU BUCK BOY

The Michael Jordan, the Babe Ruth, The Wayne Gretzky of Newschoolers.com idiots needs no introduction.... but here\\\'s one anyways. John Andrew Steward, a rich kid from Georgia, will not hesitate for a moment to tell you exactly what he\\\'s thinking (and I use that term loosely). His over 2000 posts make him one of the most prolific retards on our list, and he\\\'s become something of a legend on this website, representing the ever-growing intellectually devoid section of the membership here at NS.com. In fact, when the Golden Wheelchair award was first conceived, there was some talk of naming it after him, as a dedication. Also among his qualifications are his being named so often to Crystal-Needs-A-Park\\\'s honorary hall of fame for stupid posts, that the proprietor was forced to abandon the project: Atlantaski simply flooded it too quickly. Further, he had more entries into the original Hall of Fame for Stupid Posts than any other member of Newschoolers.com. Though he went into temporary retirement a few months ago, he has recently returned with a vengeance and, far from missing a beat, has stepped his stupidity up to new heights, recently capturing a GW award for mocking Trevor Peterson. He is fully deserving of his place near the top of this list

 
HOLY FUCK, that a lot of reading

hmm, I don't know what to say.... I agree with J.D.May

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...Told you this would be successful JD. =)

Sarah

Reppin' 907

'what's wrong with princess. I wish I was a princess'

-Jay (rebel)

 
My brother who was in the army and who was stationed in Pakistan for some time outlined a few of the fundamental flaws in an Islamic society, namely those that arrest development. One primary reason for lack of growth and setbacks in the muslim world is that they have laws concerning inheritance that do not allow for progression of business and companies. Instead of just passing down a family institution to one member to run, it must be divided up under some Islamic bylaw if you will. Therefore the business is usually sold off or liquidated due to struggles among those who received inheritance.

Now why this may not seem relevant immediately you must step back and look at the entire situation. Democracy relies on freedom, including a free market. The fundamental backbone of a free market is capitalism, and in turn growth. Now if capitalism is arrested due to the dilapidated inheritance procedures, not allowing for growth, capitalism will fail. If there is no opportunity for a truly capitalistic society to develop then democracies development and progression will also be held back.

I do not believe that democracy will truly be able to take hold unless the culture is somewhat westernized and the capitalistic spirt of growth is truly attained by the populous. Until then I doubt that a strong democracy will develop in the middle east.

Politicaly Active Since 1992

'Soberity is not an option.'

Drivin that Train
 
i agree with one of da guys above about him saying that most religions are crap, but thats my oppinion, and other ppl are entitled to theirs. i honestly think there is somethin better u cud do than worshipping some unknown person that died ages ago or was made up. also i think most people get a very one sided view of religions(like me) because of who they were brought up with/a whole lot of other things.

but this is just my oppinion and im cud be completly wrong

 
BigJ, I agree with you....Milton Friedman won a Nobel Prize for arguing the same thing, so you must be on the same track. By the Way, JDMay is my frigging idol.

 
^Gavin, you tool... I don't need a fan club.

------------

In a haze

A stormy haze

I’ll be around

I’ll be loving you

Always

Always

Here I am

And I’ll take my time

Here I am

And I’ll wait in line

Always

Always...
 
Don't fight it man, you're soooo cool. I can't believe people think I'm an alter-ego of you. How big of a loser would you have to be to praise yourself on an internet forum? Although it would be really funny if you did.

 
Bahahahaha funny shit. JDLover. Oooh JD, what was that you were saying about e-crushes earlier? I think I've found one, hahahah.

Sarah

Reppin' 907

'what's wrong with princess. I wish I was a princess'

-Jay (rebel)

 
To say that both Indian and Muslim societies have division is a basic observation, and does not mean that because Indians were successful, that Muslim’s can be too.

The difference is, Indian's willingly engage and accept their form of division. The caste system, though has its enemies, is a broadly accepted element of Indian society. Where as in Muslim society, the people factionalized themselves, made up their own doctrines, and then proceed to intimidate, and engage in conflict of varying degrees with opposing groups.

It is a fallacy however, to say that all Muslim people belong to a faction, matter of fact, I would be hesitant to say that a majority does. All in all, I don't think the factions that do exist would be willing to cooperate with each other in a cohesive democracy. Essentially I think the numbers of Muslim groups against: democracy, the US, and ulterior control of their country, are too large a contingency, blockading the survival of an Americanized democracy.

Additionally, the temperament of Muslim society is often borderline, I think that if you tried to shepherd (ie install democracy) all the people under one government those who didn't agree with it would not only be inflamed themselves, but have the ability to turn the non-partial angst of others into a turbulent clot.

All the same, there are those within Muslim society who themselves are factionalized but for the purpose of installing democracy. But that even further attributes to my point, there are such huge differences in perceptions for what is best for the Muslim world that a single solution is not only improbable, but fringing on impossibility.

-AndrewP

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Per solitudinem ardere in remedium formidinis dictitabat.

'It is often said that the best remedy for fear is to burn alone.'

 
See, think back to Fed 10, JD. Madison said that factions don’t necessarily have to be huge and apt to violence, they can be small, and they can be small and be effective instigators. Mainstream Islam, is a faction. A faction is “A group of persons forming a cohesive, usually contentious minority within a larger group.� You would probably next argue me that mainstream islam is a majority, and therefore not a faction. But I’m going to disagree; I think that simply because Muslim society is so huge and non-centralized it is inherently impossible to dub which is a majority and which is not. Doubly so, due to its non-centralization it would be very hard to collectivize an entire nation under a single government.

Think of this scenario, Muslim factions, especially with the insurgency in Iraq, have a tendency to group. So lets say that “mainstream Islam� constitutes 40% of Muslim society. There are these following groups:

5% Group C (al qaeda supporters)

10% Group B (support a theocratic democracy)

20% Group D (anti-Americanists)

25% Group E (generally impartial, but have tendency to support anti-democratic groups) So in the face of the US installing a democracy, 40% would align in support, while somewhere around 60% would not. Given these are made up statistics, but I hope I got my point across?

…

This scenario is completely fictitious but… remember after the Iraq invasion. Insurgent groups that had previously fought each other, united against the US Military. Now would you be entirely surprised to see the same thing happen with democracy? I know I wouldn’t.

Remember, installing a democracy is one thing, making that democracy survive is a completely different and much more arduous task.

-AndrewP

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Per solitudinem ardere in remedium formidinis dictitabat.

'It is often said that the best remedy for fear is to burn alone.'

 
Sic - (For those with fine tooth combs, and for the sake of the continuity of my point)

'It is a fallacy however, to say that all Muslim people belong to a faction, matter of fact, I would be hesitant to say that a majority does.'

Everyone belongs to a faction by definition. But what I should have said, is that not all Muslim people belong to a VIOLENT faction. My mistake.

-AndrewP

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Per solitudinem ardere in remedium formidinis dictitabat.

'It is often said that the best remedy for fear is to burn alone.'

 
the key part to democracy is equality. i don't know if anyone's ever read Democracy in America by Alexis de Tocqueville, but one of his arguments is that equality is necessary to democracy. because america promotes equality so much through civil rights movements, etc. (sure, it is not perfect, but we try), america has a more stable democracy. muslim people are not as fundamentally obsessed with civil rights/equality, so their democracy would not function as well. furthermore, many of their traditions do divide people (such as regulations on women and stereotypes on social status). While most Americans classify themselves as middle class, muslim people are more aware of social divisions. in general, i instating a muslim democracy would, because of the general atmosphere of inequality, deteriorate into an aristocracy or dictatorship eventually.

Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of

arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly

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