Is cheating death a selfish endeavour?

That's a great essay but I wouldn't agree fully. Yes, risk taking is a selfish endeavour. Why would you be doing it for anyone else? Their point about loving yourself more than anyone else is interesting. There is a lot of time in your day to spend truly devoted to someone else when you are not partaking in some adrenaline sport. I don't think the two are mutually exclusive. And what about loving yourself before you can love others?

While I agree that Corliss and Honnold aren't revolutionizing the world, they are part of a group of people inspiring others to look at life a different way. Helping people realize life isn't about the house, the car and the 9-5. Inspiration is crucial, especially in the comfortable times we are living in.

The writer is also blowing the risk taking out of the water. I ski tour a ton, get to some beautiful places, feel really small and it makes me feel alive. But you don't have to go about it like a jack ass. Yes, your risk is higher than the average office worker but why do you need to be recklessly cheating death every move you make? It sounds like this person has been in the Red Bull world too long and is a little jaded as well.
 
I know this is generalizing what he was saying, but I really don't agree that the only reasons risks are taken are for "carbonated drinks and B rated movies".

For some people it's just their love, and to be honest I think this article takes a lot of stuff out of perspective. You have a 1 in 470 chance of dying in a car crash in your life. Skiing is a 1 in over 900,000 chance in participants.

Isn't driving then more risky then skiing? Should we all stop driving because that is just giving money to car companies who make cars that kill people?

I don't think so. Let people do what they love. This guy seemed pretty jaded
 
13655010:hemlockjibber8 said:
It sounds like this person has been in the Red Bull world too long and is a little jaded as well.
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13655013:Lonely said:
I know this is generalizing what he was saying, but I really don't agree that the only reasons risks are taken are for "carbonated drinks and B rated movies".

For some people it's just their love, and to be honest I think this article takes a lot of stuff out of perspective.
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I definitely agree the B Movies and energy drinks part of the argument is completely blown out of proportion and for me kind of spoils the article. He seems bitter about something to do with that industry but to me that isn't the important point.

13655010:hemlockjibber8 said:
The writer is also blowing the risk taking out of the water. I ski tour a ton, get to some beautiful places, feel really small and it makes me feel alive. But you don't have to go about it like a jack ass. Yes, your risk is higher than the average office worker but why do you need to be recklessly cheating death every move you make?
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13655013:Lonely said:
You have a 1 in 470 chance of dying in a car crash in your life. Skiing is a 1 in over 900,000 chance in participants.

Isn't driving then more risky then skiing? Should we all stop driving because that is just giving money to car companies who make cars that kill people?

I don't think so. Let people do what they love. This guy seemed pretty jaded
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I think the really interesting argument is about justifying your actions in the face of the possible pain inflicted on those you love and care deeply about. I don't think he's talking about 1 in 900,000 risk level or even the risk level of most touring, but the risks taken by the guys at the most extreme ends of the sport where you do need to be 'recklessly cheating death' to remain relevant.

I'm not saying the guy has the right attitude or even that there is a correct stance to take on this. But I think it raises interesting questions about where to draw the line between the reward and the risk of pain inflicted on those you care about. And about whether to hero worship those who chose to take these risks is a rational thing to do. What about those who push the sport without risking life and limb? Should they be more or less admired?

I believe everyone should be completely free to make these decisions for themselves, I just think it's an interesting discussion.
 
True, it is good food for thought. Personally I don't really follow people who are essentially stunt monkeys. I would rather see something done tastefully, artistically, with a certain attitude and portrayed in a entertaining way. Pollard for example. His stunting hasn't been death defying or extremely cutting edge in years but I think he is just as valuable as an athlete and I still love his shit. The ski industry in general could learn some respect in this regard. We toss away legends thinking they are of no value. Outside of the mega mo - nitro circus - mass public gaper following, legends and respect can pull their weight. We don't all thrive off the next best thing, especially in the core circle, which many companies market to.

sorry, side rant.
 
It was an interesting read, but I had the hardest time reading this.

Here is my take on this topic; a lot of people have approached me about the risk taking behavior. Some have predicted loosing my knees, mind or body completely. So far, in over 10 years of deliberately putting myself in high consequence situations; I have never gotten hurt seriously. I want to attribute the fact that skill and technical ability always trumps sheer luck, although we do get lucky...very lucky. Shane made it to 40. That is along time that the odds were running against him every day. Shane was good, he was better than anyone else in what he did. I just want to remind everyone that skill and ability makes crazy situation less crazy and keeps you more in control.

The second is the self discovery I have made about myself and people surrounding me. I get to see the best and worst in people in stressful situations. Its how you perceive yourself in the tough time and the lessons learnt from both success and failure. Risk taking has given me more insight on how life can be reduced to seconds in front of you, to appreciate the times that you are not trying to keep calm and remember the times of extreme sensations. I love to balance the down time with friends and the superman times in the air. Risk taking is not selfish behavior, its being in a moment of comfort, where comfort can be pulled away a any time.

The last is how I relate high risk activity experience with safety all around me. At work, it seems I can see the dangers of the job easier and I can protect myself and others around me. Climbing, skiing, DHing is all about planning a course and following through. Timing is a factor at high speeds, but when I get the time to think it through, it seems I am the only one to see 3 steps ahead. Even walking down the street or driving, my situational awareness is always active. Feels like I am more aware than the average person of my surroundings.

There is a spiritual aspect I like to see in high risk sports. I always feel humbled by fate and experience the laws of physics at the greatest. I study physics a bit and being in nature, feeling the forces on the body and mind makes me understand what I am studying. I am studying the work of God, by experiencing the creation. Most questions about the divine come to me in intense times. I can gather these strokes of wisdom and share with people around me.

There is so much more than hucking for cash. Thank you
 
I just can't believe people pay for redbull / monster. That stuff is vile.

I think guys like Honnold, and the every changing, and dying wing suit pilots inspire generations of people to pursue their dreams, and to live a passionate life. It is completely selfish, but life is selfish, we are all selfish. Eating is selfish, we eat for self preservation, we make money for self preservation. If your loved ones can't understand your pursuit of risky passions, that is on them. Without pursuing new, exciting and risky passions I think I would be quite depressed, lethargic, and perhaps more like your alcoholic uncle, or that aunt who smokes a pack a day, both very risk selfish pursuits.

Everyone has a ever changing and flexible risk threshold. Go find yours!

On another not just because you have survived for 10 years doesn't mean you won't get buried tomorrow, or strike that cliff this afternoon. No amount of risk mitigation is absolute, and we see this time and time again at the highest level of all sports. It may not be you, but it will be someone exactly like you, who never thought it would happen to them because of their extensive risk management.

People die, that's life, accept it and go live!
 
Heard this on here not too long ago

"Imagine you have 2 jars. One is labeled luck and it is filled to the top with sand. The other is labeled skill, and it is empty. Everytime you set out on an endeavor, you take a little sand out of the luck jar and put it in the skill jar. The skill jar gradually becomes more full; But one day, your luck runs out"
 
13655066:freestyler540 said:
It was an interesting read, but I had the hardest time reading this.

Here is my take on this topic; a lot of people have approached me about the risk taking behavior. Some have predicted loosing my knees, mind or body completely. So far, in over 10 years of deliberately putting myself in high consequence situations; I have never gotten hurt seriously. I want to attribute the fact that skill and technical ability always trumps sheer luck, although we do get lucky...very lucky. Shane made it to 40. That is along time that the odds were running against him every day. Shane was good, he was better than anyone else in what he did. I just want to remind everyone that skill and ability makes crazy situation less crazy and keeps you more in control.

The second is the self discovery I have made about myself and people surrounding me. I get to see the best and worst in people in stressful situations. Its how you perceive yourself in the tough time and the lessons learnt from both success and failure. Risk taking has given me more insight on how life can be reduced to seconds in front of you, to appreciate the times that you are not trying to keep calm and remember the times of extreme sensations. I love to balance the down time with friends and the superman times in the air. Risk taking is not selfish behavior, its being in a moment of comfort, where comfort can be pulled away a any time.

The last is how I relate high risk activity experience with safety all around me. At work, it seems I can see the dangers of the job easier and I can protect myself and others around me. Climbing, skiing, DHing is all about planning a course and following through. Timing is a factor at high speeds, but when I get the time to think it through, it seems I am the only one to see 3 steps ahead. Even walking down the street or driving, my situational awareness is always active. Feels like I am more aware than the average person of my surroundings.

There is a spiritual aspect I like to see in high risk sports. I always feel humbled by fate and experience the laws of physics at the greatest. I study physics a bit and being in nature, feeling the forces on the body and mind makes me understand what I am studying. I am studying the work of God, by experiencing the creation. Most questions about the divine come to me in intense times. I can gather these strokes of wisdom and share with people around me.

There is so much more than hucking for cash. Thank you
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This was almost a better read than the article

13655329:THEDIRTYBUBBLE said:
Heard this on here not too long ago

"Imagine you have 2 jars. One is labeled luck and it is filled to the top with sand. The other is labeled skill, and it is empty. Everytime you set out on an endeavor, you take a little sand out of the luck jar and put it in the skill jar. The skill jar gradually becomes more full; But one day, your luck runs out"
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Words to live by right here.
 
13655313:PoLaRpEaK said:
I just can't believe people pay for redbull / monster. That stuff is vile.

I think guys like Honnold, and the every changing, and dying wing suit pilots inspire generations of people to pursue their dreams, and to live a passionate life. It is completely selfish, but life is selfish, we are all selfish. Eating is selfish, we eat for self preservation, we make money for self preservation. If your loved ones can't understand your pursuit of risky passions, that is on them. Without pursuing new, exciting and risky passions I think I would be quite depressed, lethargic, and perhaps more like your alcoholic uncle, or that aunt who smokes a pack a day, both very risk selfish pursuits.
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I'm still waiting for the Shellfish punchline.
 
Isn't evolution selfish?

Why is selfish bad?

(not saying I agree with either of those points, but I feel like it's relevant to the debate)
 
Of course it is but its your body to do with as you wish. If you die and leave your kids without financial support then tough luck. They'll have to get jobs instead of being freeloading children.
 
13655066:freestyler540 said:
The last is how I relate high risk activity experience with safety all around me. At work, it seems I can see the dangers of the job easier and I can protect myself and others around me. Climbing, skiing, DHing is all about planning a course and following through. Timing is a factor at high speeds, but when I get the time to think it through, it seems I am the only one to see 3 steps ahead. Even walking down the street or driving, my situational awareness is always active. Feels like I am more aware than the average person of my surroundings.
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This so much. I feel like I'm way more aware of everything and much of my conscience is diverted to anticipating movement and listening for cues.
 
I think that it is up to the individual athlete and his/her own agenda to push themselves. If my passion for the sport and my abilities allow me to be the best of the best, while dodging the 9-5 grind, with a risk of death, IMO I'm gonna go with that. Conversely, If soda companies are sweeping up young, less than bright athletes and sending them to hell's gates, I'm gonna have to make a case that this process is wrong. I would say that it is merely a lifestyle choice of the individual, trying to expand and share a wonderful sport with those people less fortunate through the media. It sounds like the author almost blames the sponsors for making athletes go bigger, but we will not never know the bounds of these sports unless the limits are pushed, techniques are refined and the features cannot get any bigger. I would call it a collective effort to expand the sports with each party (athlete, sponsor, media) playing a role. Not to end on a dark note but when these people pass on, they should be doing what they love for the sport that they love, and for no other reason besides that. Rewards come with risks, and that's that.
 
Is it not selfish of your loved ones and those around you to try and stop you from doing your passion, because they want to keep you in their life?
 
13655439:cydwhit said:
Isn't evolution selfish?

Why is selfish bad?

(not saying I agree with either of those points, but I feel like it's relevant to the debate)
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I would say that evolution is selfish at the expense of our environment, If we have no impact on our environment then evolution is not selfish, because we merely coexist and transform within the balance of nature.

Being selfish is good because pushing yourself pushes others through jealousy and thus pushes society as a whole.
 
^ following the above comment, I personally think this would vary between athletes because there is a huge difference between a major athlete whose only motivation is to get the next best viral video, or push himself to his edge for sponsorships or athletes like Alex Honnold who ended up getting famous because somebody found out how great he was. And he's the kind of guy who pushes himself because he want to have more fun climbing big shit.
 
13655645:ScottB said:
Is it not selfish of your loved ones and those around you to try and stop you from doing your passion, because they want to keep you in their life?
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IMO Totally selfish. Others cannot hold you back from participating in an activity that makes you happy, unless that habit is self destructive. It could be argued that these sports are self destructive but life is a journey and it comes with risks. I feel like that's why people make the 9-5 scramble because it provides security and predictability. Others choose a more unpredictable way of life and that's their own choice.
 
That a fucking asshole.

I can't believe I finished reading this.

This guy seems so arrogant. But first I'll reply to simply the title.

Life is a selfish endeavor. There is reason to care about and help other, but you do things that you want to, pursue goals that you want to, eat some ice cream because you want to etc.

These sports are selfish but not in a bad way.Life is selfish.

This guy is bitter about something. He has a lot going on in his head, and it's selfish(in a bad way) that he's trying to inject it into the life's of other people, and memories of those who have passed.
 
13655645:ScottB said:
Is it not selfish of your loved ones and those around you to try and stop you from doing your passion, because they want to keep you in their life?
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The point I would add to this discussion is that things get enormously more complicated when you have kids.

Without kids, sure do whatever the fuck you want and its your life to lead how you see fit. Fuck 'em if they're telling you its too dangerous.

However, after having kids things will and should change. You chose to bring new humans into this world, and they are completely reliant on you for support. As well, their entire personality will be shaped by what you teach them, and if you die you will forever strip them of having two parents to teach them how the world works. They are financially reliant on you, and most people who get into extremely risky behavior are no longer able to get life insurance of any sort which in relation to the car accident example - is a big difference.

The affect of losing a parent on a child is enormous, both emotionally and financially.

So though I do not agree with the idea that taking risks is inherently selfish, if you put it in the context of those who have grown older and started families - I can't help but agree that there is a selfish element when you're doing it to the extreme.

Driving is dangerous, smoking is dangerous, drinking is dangerous - hell everything is dangerous. Skiing is dangerous. There's nothing wrong with a little bit of calculated risk - but when taken to the absolute extreme with a family relying on you... I think there is a selfish element.

Now of course, you also have to weigh in the fact that if you totally take something like that away from the person, the net effects could be much worse. Perhaps if they are addicted to risk taking behavior, alcoholism, drug abuse or many other nasty personality traits could take hold. That is a whole other side to this, one which I imagine the research isn't so great.
 
I started to write an opinion article on this and stopped myself.

I honestly can't believe how big of a douche this guy comes across as. You're going to talk about extreme sports with the air of nostalgia. How you miss your days surfing. You're now working for a company that sponsors some of these athletes. Then you go on to trivialize the lives and deaths of people who died pursuing their sports, and aren't here to defend themselves against your bullshit.

To come across as if they did what they did simply to please their sponsors. That's bullshit.

I understand what the author is saying. Every time somebody dies in extreme sports we have some discussion along those lines. That said, it's their life.

This article is one of the worst things I've read regarding extreme sports. I hope I never read anything that writes again.
 
13656019:Mr.Bishop said:
The point I would add to this discussion is that things get enormously more complicated when you have kids.
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That's a whole new side that didn't even occur to me, and I totally agree with what you said.
 
13656072:ScottB said:
That's a whole new side that didn't even occur to me, and I totally agree with what you said.
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Its never something you think about until you actually have them.

Basically everything you've ever thought and known is re-processed the moment your first kid shows up. You re-build what you know and believe from there, and loads of it stays the same. However all of a sudden you're a parent... and loads of what you thought was stupid that your parents used to say makes sense.
 
I can't decide if I want to partner with someone and have kids. It seems way to committing and consuming. I think I'd rather live in a van and be a climbing bum and ski bum.
 
"I only have so much empathy and there is not enough of it to spend on those who knowingly flirt with their own mortality."

I like this a lot. Knowingly pursue adventures that may consume you for the payout of feeling alive.
 
13656799:Mr.Bishop said:
Its never something you think about until you actually have them.

Basically everything you've ever thought and known is re-processed the moment your first kid shows up. You re-build what you know and believe from there, and loads of it stays the same. However all of a sudden you're a parent... and loads of what you thought was stupid that your parents used to say makes sense.
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I`m so old I don`t even post here anymore but this got me. I have 2 kids now and all I can think about is how it has changed my perspective.

I`m not calling anyone out, but two of my idols (and I mean idols, posters movies, everything) were JP and Shane. I modeled my my whole ski life around them. Fuck, my buddies and I to this day recite lines from Something About Mcconkey to each other. But with that said, I feel the risk that the pro`s with kids put them in is incredibly selfish. It breaks my heart to hear and see photos of their kids knowing that they won`t have a dad. When it happened I teared up, not only for the passing of my idols, but also their kids.

With that said, these people changed lives and an industry. They were special and they couldn't stop. And 10 years ago I would have said, fuck it, rather die young doing what you love, but as Doug said, kids change everything. For the better! Seeing my kid do his first box this year and follow me over small jumps is the best feeling in the world. And for me the risk the pros who have kids put themselves in, is as selfish as it gets.
 
Where do you draw the line though. It's a tricky situation and I understand both sides. Well every side other than the OP of that piece of shit "article",

How dangerous is too dangerous? Their are lots of action sports legends riding or retired that carved out a great living for their families in addition to the legacies they built.

I mean where do we draw the line of what is selfish? Was tony hawk selfish? He seemed to make a pretty good life out of things. Maybe that wasn't dangerous enough? Well some people were mentioned that died in avalanches. There are a shit ton of non pros in the backcountry pretty regularly. Sure they may be taking every precaution, but things happen. If they get unlucky are they selfish for having been there?

What if they weren't even out of bounds and were just skiing through the trees, hooked an edge, or a ski under the snow and caught a tree. Is that selfish?

It's easy to reflect and call somebody out in hindsight. They're dead so obviously something went wrong. That said, what is so different between them and the pursuits of the living?

I guess the best answer I can come up with is that there's a certain balance to the madness. A scaling back of adrenaline fueled adventures for a more tame, though still active lifestyle. Where that lies really depends on the person, although many judge in these situations, it's a personal choice.

Extreme sports are more dangerous than other sports, especially when you make a career out of them. That said, for all the people that have a tragically abrupt ending, there are far more who go on to retire old and in relatively good health.

I may not understand, or have the ability to push the envelope as some of these people do, but I empathize with them. To me, a certain part of is similar to the difference between our view of what we do, and what a mom type would say. "OMG YOULL BREAK YOUR NECK!" getting 2 feet high off a small jump. Even worse, doing a backflip!!!!!! Then for us it's no big deal to spin a 7 over a 40' jump, flip that jump, maybe even double. We've gradually worked up not courage, but the ability and muscle memory to perform at that level. We didn't one day just say "Hey I'm going to to all these tricks" our first week on skis. We slowly got better, learned how to do basic tricks as well as learning how to fall properly.

I feel some of that transfers over. There will always be people better than us, pushing the boundaries farther and sometimes seeming crazy to us. That doesn't necessarily mean they're out of control and have a death wish. Sure some people vibe off that adrenaline to an extent that pushes them to the threshold, but I feel that a lot of these people are far more, or have done a far better job realizing their talent than us.

Some of these pros can throw a triple with less difficulty than some of us can 5 a small jump. Sure a triple is a more intense trick, but if they're riding at that level, does that mean they're absolutely insanely risky? Anymore than even the basic park skier from the person just shredding groomers?

Idk, sorry for my jumbled pile of thoughts.
 
Where do you draw the line though. It's a tricky situation and I understand both sides. Well every side other than the OP of that piece of shit "article",

How dangerous is too dangerous? Their are lots of action sports legends riding or retired that carved out a great living for their families in addition to the legacies they built.

I mean where do we draw the line of what is selfish? Was tony hawk selfish? He seemed to make a pretty good life out of things. Maybe that wasn't dangerous enough? Well some people were mentioned that died in avalanches. There are a shit ton of non pros in the backcountry pretty regularly. Sure they may be taking every precaution, but things happen. If they get unlucky are they selfish for having been there?

What if they weren't even out of bounds and were just skiing through the trees, hooked an edge, or a ski under the snow and caught a tree. Is that selfish?

It's easy to reflect and call somebody out in hindsight. They're dead so obviously something went wrong. That said, what is so different between them and the pursuits of the living?

I guess the best answer I can come up with is that there's a certain balance to the madness. A scaling back of adrenaline fueled adventures for a more tame, though still active lifestyle. Where that lies really depends on the person, although many judge in these situations, it's a personal choice.

Extreme sports are more dangerous than other sports, especially when you make a career out of them. That said, for all the people that have a tragically abrupt ending, there are far more who go on to retire old and in relatively good health.

I may not understand, or have the ability to push the envelope as some of these people do, but I empathize with them. To me, a certain part of is similar to the difference between our view of what we do, and what a mom type would say. "OMG YOULL BREAK YOUR NECK!" getting 2 feet high off a small jump. Even worse, doing a backflip!!!!!! Then for us it's no big deal to spin a 7 over a 40' jump, flip that jump, maybe even double. We've gradually worked up not courage, but the ability and muscle memory to perform at that level. We didn't one day just say "Hey I'm going to to all these tricks" our first week on skis. We slowly got better, learned how to do basic tricks as well as learning how to fall properly.

I feel some of that transfers over. There will always be people better than us, pushing the boundaries farther and sometimes seeming crazy to us. That doesn't necessarily mean they're out of control and have a death wish. Sure some people vibe off that adrenaline to an extent that pushes them to the threshold, but I feel that a lot of these people are far more, or have done a far better job realizing their talent than us.

Some of these pros can throw a triple with less difficulty than some of us can 5 a small jump. Sure a triple is a more intense trick, but if they're riding at that level, does that mean they're absolutely insanely risky? Anymore than even the basic park skier from the person just shredding groomers?

Idk, sorry for my jumbled pile of thoughts.
 
Where do you draw the line though. It's a tricky situation and I understand both sides. Well every side other than the OP of that piece of shit "article",

How dangerous is too dangerous? Their are lots of action sports legends riding or retired that carved out a great living for their families in addition to the legacies they built.

I mean where do we draw the line of what is selfish? Was tony hawk selfish? He seemed to make a pretty good life out of things. Maybe that wasn't dangerous enough? Well some people were mentioned that died in avalanches. There are a shit ton of non pros in the backcountry pretty regularly. Sure they may be taking every precaution, but things happen. If they get unlucky are they selfish for having been there?

What if they weren't even out of bounds and were just skiing through the trees, hooked an edge, or a ski under the snow and caught a tree. Is that selfish?

It's easy to reflect and call somebody out in hindsight. They're dead so obviously something went wrong. That said, what is so different between them and the pursuits of the living?

I guess the best answer I can come up with is that there's a certain balance to the madness. A scaling back of adrenaline fueled adventures for a more tame, though still active lifestyle. Where that lies really depends on the person, although many judge in these situations, it's a personal choice.

Extreme sports are more dangerous than other sports, especially when you make a career out of them. That said, for all the people that have a tragically abrupt ending, there are far more who go on to retire old and in relatively good health.

I may not understand, or have the ability to push the envelope as some of these people do, but I empathize with them. To me, a certain part of is similar to the difference between our view of what we do, and what a mom type would say. "OMG YOULL BREAK YOUR NECK!" getting 2 feet high off a small jump. Even worse, doing a backflip!!!!!! Then for us it's no big deal to spin a 7 over a 40' jump, flip that jump, maybe even double. We've gradually worked up not courage, but the ability and muscle memory to perform at that level. We didn't one day just say "Hey I'm going to to all these tricks" our first week on skis. We slowly got better, learned how to do basic tricks as well as learning how to fall properly.

I feel some of that transfers over. There will always be people better than us, pushing the boundaries farther and sometimes seeming crazy to us. That doesn't necessarily mean they're out of control and have a death wish. Sure some people vibe off that adrenaline to an extent that pushes them to the threshold, but I feel that a lot of these people are far more, or have done a far better job realizing their talent than us.

Some of these pros can throw a triple with less difficulty than some of us can 5 a small jump. Sure a triple is a more intense trick, but if they're riding at that level, does that mean they're absolutely insanely risky? Anymore than even the basic park skier from the person just shredding groomers?

Idk, sorry for my jumbled pile of thoughts.
 
That's cool man. Ironically, it's pretty selfish that you think your opinion of what and why people do things matters more than theirs. Live and let live, nobody wants your empathy, I know I sure don't if I smash into one of those granite faces you are talking about. Or get slammed by a drunk driver on the highway for that matter. Not all of us out there are flying pieces of nylon for money and if you don't understand that, then why are you in this industry?
 
It is what it is. Things happen. I believe the key is, if you truly feel it in your heart, then you are doing no wrong. Know the risks, but don't ever hold yourself back. To live with withholdings is not why we're here.
 
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