Intelligent Design vs. Evolutionary theory

shelbyski

Member
so theres this thing going on at my school to start teaching intelligent design(id) in science rooms along with evolutionary theory. this isnt such a bad idea, but id isnt technically science, plus, although most of them try to deny it, it is religiously based-which i also dont have so much of a problem with, but it is 1) against school, state, and national wide policies seperating church from state, 2) because it will most likely eventually lead to our district being sued, which is money we definetly do not have to spare. the people that are presenting it also say its * for the students, to think critically and anaylze all sides of a situation* what a load of shit- if you really wanted your kids to think critically why not introduce speech and debate-seriously what does the bible have to do with this? and i think its just for the i.d. people to get a foothold in our schoools, so that once we get this in our schools, maybe they will start being able to introduce all other types of things reliougously related, and soon it will be hard to walk around with our bibles shoved up our asses-plus there is no curriculum whatsoever, which there cant be, because this 'theory' cant really say anything without pissing another religion off. and it will possibly have our school lose its accredidations, i mean, we wotn be able to go to college-but hey, well know two ways the world could have started!! yay! lol but, ok im not totally bashing on this- i mean it is a good idea-it just totally doesnt belong in science classrooms-maybe as an elective tho...ok so tell me your thoughts?

*live 4 life*

~Shelby~
 
what is this 'intelligent design' you speak of?

_____________________________________________________

powder gets me pisted off
 
intelligent design is a crock of shit. it isn't science. science is the paramount of objectivity. you cannot be objective when you believe that things come from a creator. intellegent design is such a cop out fancy term for anti-evolutionists. look kid, those teachers in your school are going to feed you a bunch of shit, you can take their word for it if you want, or you can educate yourself and get a different perspective. look up charles lyell (geologist, theorized uniformitarianism), Jean Baptiste Lamark, Thomas Malthus, and of course Darwin. When you're done with high school and you go to college take a class in physical anthropology and then you can realize what a fucking unbelievable load of crap intelligent design is.

the white n word

Alpinecowboy84 is a fucking fag
 
oh one more thing. even the fuckin pope publicy recognized evolution. hes about as close to god as you're gonna get.

the white n word

Alpinecowboy84 is a fucking fag
 
My god, what a waste of time. Paley has cursed students of your school to hours of idiotic monotony. For those who don't know what we're talking about, here is something I wrote about The argument from design, or 'Teleological' proof of God's existence. Problems with it are highlighted, and I failed to mention that the argument also leaves open the possibility of polytheism. There's a Douglas Adams quote at the end.

Paley's teleological argument, more aptly dubbed the argument from design, is essentially comprised of the premises that nature is complex and purposeful, and could not have been created save by an intelligent creator with a purpose. If we were, as Paley hypothetically puts it, to find a watch in the middle of the forest, would we say that it had come into being on its own? Given that it is a very intricate contraption, and is able (conveniently) to tell time, we would naturally assume that a watch-maker had constructed it. Similarly, Paley argues, a great variety of beings that exist are similarly complicated, and serve a purpose:, as do we: to please god. Just as no one would assume that a watch had been formed through natural processes, Paley argues, we must not make such an assumption about the universe, nor ourselves.

Unfortunately, this argument has a number of flaws. Firstly, any competent engineer understands that one of the most fundamental principles of design is that simplicity is preferable to complexity. The simplest functional method of doing something is always the best way. So, if we can detect in anything supposedly created by God any unnecessary overuse of materials, or anything that is tangled with complexity, we can infer that either the creator does not meet the criteria laid out for Godhood, or there is some alternate method of explaining the universe, other than its creation by an ultimate being.

The other aspect of Paley's argument, that creation has a distinct and discernible purpose, can be disproved soundly. If for some reason something which has supposedly been created by God exists in a form such that it is restricted in its purpose, and our theory of creation can provide no principled reason to support its being so, we must conclude that there is another explanation that does account for the state of this thing. In other words, if, given the argument that all things were created by God, we are left asking 'why are things assembled this way, when it is so obviously deficient', then we are correct to seek an alternative theory that would tell us why.

To add perspective, here is a hypothetical situation to counter Paley's. Suppose that you had a dog who, when asked simple arithmetic questions, would bark the answers correctly. You assume, based on this, that the dog has an understanding of mathematics. However, you note that the dog could (suspiciously) only answer correctly if his trainer knew the answers and was present; curiously enough, were any other individual to ask the sum of two small numbers, the dog would remain mute. The concept of the owner's presence is not connected to the concept of mathematics, and yet the dog's ability to solve problems relies on it. Given this, we must say that the dog has no knowledge of mathematics. It is not simply improbable that the dog knows arithmetic, it is conceptually preposterous given the circumstances. To apply this to the discussion at hand, were we to find an example in creation, (though the universe as a whole may on some level seem well conceived) of poor or wasteful design, we can conclude that creation is not intelligently designed, and there is no way of defining 'intelligent design' so that it would apply to creation.

In the interest of furthering these premises, it would be fitting to present several examples of markedly poor and wasteful design, that, had an omniscient creator made them, would be wantonly stupid in their conception. In many birds, the bones of the legs are hollow to facilitate easier flight, an incredibly efficient design that would seem to support Paley. However, why is the same design present in the Ostrich and the Emu, which are not only flightless birds, but depend on leg strength for their transportation? They too have many hollow bones*. There is incredible waste in all parts of nature; many animals' eggs (fish, for instance) are incredibly multitudinous, but few young survive. Of the thousands of acorns dropped from trees, only a few actually grow. Finally, it is an interesting fact of human anatomy that the eye, due to certain cells being in backwards, create a 'blind spot' present in many mammals. Despite this, the same problem does not exist in the Octopus and the squid, assumedly God's chosen creatures. There are hundreds, if not thousands of other examples of inefficient design, and it is because of this fact that we should doubt Paley's explanation as firm proof of God's existence.

We do not even require that any other theory be present in order to reject Paley; for there must simply be some alternative, whether or not we know what it is. To assume that there is simply one answer or another, the popular theories in this case being evolution and creation, would create a false dilemma. To prove one wrong does not immediately affirm the other. Another answer may exist, and we do not require knowledge of it to dismiss those currently under examination. So, despite the fact that it defeats the purpose of religion and leaves us in the dark asking 'why?', the dismissal of Paley's argument from design is the most logical conclusion to its examination.

******************************************************

The follwing is By Douglas Adams.

~

'The Babel fish,' said The Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy quietly, 'is small, yellow and leech-like, and probably the oddest thing in the Universe. It feeds on brainwave energy not from its carrier but from those around it. It absorbs all unconscious mental frequencies from this brainwave energy to nourish itself with. It then excretes into the mind of its carrier a telepathic matrix formed by combining the conscious thought frequencies with nerve signals picked up from the speech centres of the brain which has supplied them. The practical upshot of all this is that if you stick a Babel fish in your ear you can instantly understand anything said to you in any form of language. The speech patterns you actually hear decode the brainwave matrix which has been fed into your mind by your Babel fish.

'Now it is such a bizarrely improbable coincidence that anything so mindboggingly useful could have evolved purely by chance that some thinkers have chosen to see it as the final and clinching proof of the non-existence of God.

'The argument goes something like this: `I refuse to prove that I exist,' says God, `for proof denies faith, and without faith I am nothing.'

'`But,' says Man, `The Babel fish is a dead giveaway, isn't it? It could not have evolved by chance. It proves you exist, and so therefore, by your own arguments, you don't. QED.'

'`Oh dear,' says God, `I hadn't thought of that,' and promptly vanishes in a puff of logic.

'`Oh, that was easy,' says Man, and for an encore goes on to prove that black is white and gets himself killed on the next zebra crossing.

'Meanwhile, the poor Babel Fish, by effectively removing all barriers to communication between different races and cultures, has caused more and bloodier wars than anything else in the history of creation.'

~From 'The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy', By Douglas Adams~

*Ostriches, of the Ratite family, do have some hollow bones, but the majority of their bone structure is pointlessly hollow.

'Anatomy of the Ostrich', Oklahoma State University Instructional material

'Evolution: Regarding Mammalian Eyes', posted by Stephen Jones; American Scientific Affiliation; Discussion of science and Christianity, message boards - evolution: November, 1996

 
Wow man^ I read all that and it really makes sense. Oh and Shelby, do whatever you can to keep that shit out of your school.

You're not like the others with their empty eyes and plastic smiles.
 
It better, I had to hand it in to my phil prof, one of my term papers. Got a bad mark because I didn't put in the stuff about polytheism though.

 
J.D._May, as much as i do agree with you, i feel the need to argue in the alternitive. the creator wasnt just dealing with individual creatures when he designed the universe, he was desiging a system of complex chain reactions, out of the thousands of acons that are made by an oak tree, hundreds are eaten by small animals who with out that as a food source would not be able to survive. These small animals are eaten by other animals, provide breeding grouds for bacteria, even airate the ground so the trees can live longer healther lives. many of the small sprouts are also consumed in the same manner as the acorns. maybe one year no new trees are made, but the original tree is still there to produce more plus it has supported hundreds of diffrent animals, from bacteria to deer. also, im sorry about my spelling, its horrible.

Tom--[Leap firSt]
 
'either the creator does not meet the criteria laid out for Godhood'

who the hell are you to 'lay out' a criteria for god to meet?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------Joel

'I heard that Richard Gere gerbils. That is, he inserts gerbils into a paper towel tube, which he then sticks up his butthole. I don't doubt this, because he asked me if i wanted to come over to his house and gerbil. I insisted that he come over to MY house, since the whole thing seemed weird. As a practical joke, i attached a bucket of water to the top of the door so that when he opened it, I beat him with a mannequin leg.'-Skydaddy
 
Commonly accepted criteria for godhood (as stated by the christian church for 2000 years, and most major monotheistic religions):

1. All powerful

2. All knowing

3. Benificent

I didn't lay them out. I took that from other sources. Hell, St. Thomas Aquinas and St. Anselm both agree with the above, and I'd say they're rather good sources as far as theology goes.

 
you miss one vital point;

church, the bible and christianity is not God. Actually, they have buttfuck nothing to do with God, not a thing.

Church is a form of fellowship where like minded people can get together and talk about God, worship him and chill out. It's not God. The bible is MAN'S interpretation of God's word, it is just that, an interpretation, man is not perfect so neither is the bible, the bible is not God. Christianity is an act of faith, a move of free choice, christianity is not God. God is God and the church sure as hell has no more authority than you do to lay down criteria for 'Godhood'. What a load of bullshit.

Don't even get me started on evolution. I've written my ideas countless times and basically none of you are capable of an actual proper debate with evidence and support, except for Andy, SUPilot, gravtek and maybe a couple other guys.

Of course creation should be taught as well as evolution. Evolution hasn't been proven, in fact it's a completley flawed arguement with zero scientific proof and an incomplete theory.

~~Phunkin Phatt Phreerider~~

#Cut the Jibba Jabba Crazy Fools! Start Skiing!#

*Be greatful, everyday, for snow, mountains, gravity and skiing*

@Talent Is Important, But Image Is God!@

%Jesus Is My Homeboy%
 
thanks guys-it just pisses me of, i wrote a paper on it, but frankly the board members who introduced this are grade a assholes-ok so i respect all of them, most are my freinds parents or sport people, but they are seriously fucked up...excuse this, they are typical small town stuck in their ways religious freaks. nothing will change their minds. which is stupid because for soemthing to pass, we need 3 members to levy for it, and hey-guess what? there are exactly three of them! coincedence? i think not...and this one guy, who shall remain nameless *asshole* already cost our school a bunch of money trying to stay on the board while also being employed by the school-that probably doesnt make any sense but its against policy to be employed by the school and also be on the board or a teacher or whatever (favoritism) but argh...the whole thing pisses me off..cause our school is a dinky ass place that doesnt even have enough money to fix the damn doors-and now they want to risk everything, accredidations, just to get this in here? yeah right-and they mask their religion...hehe losers. first it was divine intervention-didnt work cause involved religion- then intelligent design-still...and now its 'objective origins' which the whole thng is screwed up- cause in fact they did call it all of these things - its crazy. i mean sure- as students we should be learning all sides of this evolutionary theory because it is scientific process, but this is just not even science, or belong in a class room, and then the people speakin for it make it seem like we have evolution force fed down our throats- and none of them have ever been in our classrrooms, or even asked the teachers to find out what really goes on. plus, i think this whole generation is seriously undermined-they dont think that we can think for ourselves-which means we have no say in the matter. what pigs. i was lucky to have good parents, who didnt tell me what was right or wrong, and so i went to both meetings and got to figure out what i thought for myself, providing all the facts. i really dont think many other parents did this at all..sory... im rambling, but its just seriously gay- o yeah and j.d. may- that thing taht parly said about the watch and stuff, well the guy that was speaking as a proactivist for it said that exact same thing-but without mentioning the problms...this whole thing is seriously nervewrackin.....

*live 4 life*

~Shelby~
 
ZERO SCIENTIFIC PROOF? Uh yeah, ok. I'm not even going to touch that one, other than to say 'Inference to the best explanation' and leav it at that. Well then, how would you define god? Philosophically, you should say that God is the thing than which nothing greater can exist, from which can be derived the above.

By the way, before you get all defensive, that paper wasn't attempting to disprove the existence of God, it was attempting to show that the argument from design is an ineffective way to prove that he does exist. Considering the teleological method is founded on the beliefs of the Church, I think I'm perfectly in the right to use the same beliefs as the foundation for my criticism of their theories.

How about you take the time to figure out what I'm saying before jumping to conclusions and going off saying I'm ill equipped to have a debate at your level.

 
my post actually wasn't directed at you mate but anywho, if that's how you want it.

Go on, prove evolution. Tell me now, what proof is there that it happened? Where are all the links between species, where are the fossils of animals that are half one species and half of another? There are none, only little dotted lines on a diagram, tell me, what exactly happens on that dotted line? A mutation? nup, because something useful such as a kidney to process poisons in your body and excrete them doesn't come about through 'countless mutations and stages of uselessness'. Evolution itself states that anything useless is done away with through natural selection. It is a totally flawed arguement that doesn't even support itself. Even my anthropology professer couldn't explain it to me and if he can't, I seriously doubt that you can. So go on, here's the challenge, prove it.

~~Phunkin Phatt Phreerider~~

#Cut the Jibba Jabba Crazy Fools! Start Skiing!#

*Be greatful, everyday, for snow, mountains, gravity and skiing*

@Talent Is Important, But Image Is God!@

%Jesus Is My Homeboy%
 
o right uhh about the 'not qualified for a proper debate' how would you know? maybe im not a scientest, or preist or whatever but just because maybe you are ( or whatever) doesnt mean your word is better than ours. its just basically a matter of opinion- this whole thing has been made into right and wrong-which cant happen because its just illogical with all different view points and such- but one thing you may be missing on teaching i.d.- although people try to deny that its not religious- all of the people presenting this idea and supporting were herded in by churches, or were in the church scene( which is not a bad thing, just fact) which crosses the line of state and church-and also- what in the hell would/could we teach on this? it has no facts, and we cant teach christianity without teaching jewish beliefs, and so one- it would bascically turn into a philosophy class-which i am not against- but there is no curriculum for this idea

*live 4 life*

~Shelby~
 
Oh, sorry. It sounded like you directed it at me...

I can't explain evolution. But it seems to me that even if there's no proof, there seems to be a fairly strong indication based on fact that we have, in evolution, something close to the right answer. But anyways, there was a good reason I said I wasn't touching the Evolution thing... I'm not a biologist or an anthropologist.

 
makes a good point...sure evolution leaves alot of holes to fill in, but it sure is better than nothing

*live 4 life*

~Shelby~
 
By the way, my cousin has, in his wallet, the mathematical proof of the Existence of God (that is, a supreme being, a creator, who may or may not be as classically characterised). He showed it to me, and It worked out to my eyes, but I didn't really understand it because it was Modal Logic at a graduate level. He's a genius and my math skills are sorely lacking, so I'll have to wait. He isn't telling anybody until his prof, who came up with it and told him (cause he was top of his class and they were buddies apparently), gets it perfected, explained, written up, and published. It might be a big deal, or it might be disproved...we'll see.

 
sounds interesting- i myself do believe in god just cause it makes sense- but having it proved to me would kinda ruin it- cause religion is faith, and faith is wel...faith-believing in something without hard evidence or whatever- but if your cousin has this thing, thats pretty cool!

*live 4 life*

~Shelby~
 
Obviously I was drawing a generalisation when I stated that most people in here can't have a decent observation. You haven't been around that long so you probably haven't seen what these debates often turn into.

~~Phunkin Phatt Phreerider~~

#Cut the Jibba Jabba Crazy Fools! Start Skiing!#

*Be greatful, everyday, for snow, mountains, gravity and skiing*

@Talent Is Important, But Image Is God!@

%Jesus Is My Homeboy%
 
but just going off what someone said a couple posts ago, yes, it is much easier to agree with evolution than to believe in God. Evolution at first sight seems to be a straight-forward, logical arguement, and, a lot of people really don't want to believe in God so if there's something else that could explain the mystery then they'll snap at that as an excuse.

~~Phunkin Phatt Phreerider~~

#Cut the Jibba Jabba Crazy Fools! Start Skiing!#

*Be greatful, everyday, for snow, mountains, gravity and skiing*

@Talent Is Important, But Image Is God!@

%Jesus Is My Homeboy%
 
ive said before that i dont see evolutionary theory and the christian veiw of creationism to be all that contradictory. in the bible it simply says that in a matter of 6 dys the world was created. it doesnt say that that is 6 days in the way we preceive it now, it is my thought that the reconing of time to god is a completely different thing than the reconing of time to man.... secondly, it never says in genisis how man was created. perhaps he was just made in a flash and dropped here, but god is subject to his own laws, including the laws of sience and nature. when you look at the arguments for evolution, you can look and see that a chimpanzee has 99% identical dna to a human, a gorilla has around 89% and so on and so forth, even a cow has around 50% identical dna, by simple virtue of the fact that it is a mammal. obviously we as humans are a cut above other animal life, but that doesnt mean that we dont share some kind of common ancestor down the line.... what gets me to be convicted to the thought that there is a god, or an ultimate creator is the question about how a living organism one day appeared. cells dont just become animated by themselfs... even cell mutations dont just occur to the point where we would have evolved from single cell organisms... my thought is that evolution happened,.... theres too much evidence to think otherwise, but i also think that there is someone directing the show, so to speak. the chain of events necissary to end up at life on earth as we now know it from the creation of matter, and its forming into an inhabitable plannet to its being populated by all manner of animal and plant life could not have just happened. thats immpossible. it did happen, and it was by design....

on a more personal note, it baffles me that anyone who has spent time in the mountians can look arount them and not see the hand of some superior being... for me especially being in the back counytry and just looking at my surroundings is proof enough that there is a god...

-you think you can take us on... you and your cronies-
 
It takes more intelligence to NOT believe in evolution , than it takes to believe in it. People who are fanatics in its belief remind me of the church that has kept man in the dark for ages. Teaching such a sketchy theory in schools , is putting horse blinders on young minds.

 
sorry to break it to you buddy, but the evolution theory really has many, many gaping holes in it. in the mid 1850's, when darwin put out 'the origin of species', he expected that in the following 10 years or so, enough so called missing links would be found to totally prove his argument. ten years later? zero. now? zero.

he also said that if this wasnt the case, if no missing links were found, then his theory should be discarded. hmmmmmm. interesting.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------Joel

'I heard that Richard Gere gerbils. That is, he inserts gerbils into a paper towel tube, which he then sticks up his butthole. I don't doubt this, because he asked me if i wanted to come over to his house and gerbil. I insisted that he come over to MY house, since the whole thing seemed weird. As a practical joke, i attached a bucket of water to the top of the door so that when he opened it, I beat him with a mannequin leg.'-Skydaddy
 
Oh man Tim, I remember these kinds of posts, I think this afternoon I might go back and hunt down the links to some of the better ones. Even though we never came close to agreeing, it never turned the debate ugly.

 
There is way to many 'humanisms'(as I like to call them) in the bible that keep me from beleiveing it was written by a man that took it directly from gods word. First of all if you have ever played the game telephone growing up you would know if you say something to one person and they tell a person and so on all the way down the line the story changes so many times none of it makes sence and it has totally lost all merit from original form. Secondly, the bible has so many points of veiw that seem to human suck as 'animals were put on the earth for mans use' HMMM... does that sound like something a god would say or something a human would say hmmm. All the fables of silly events like Adam eating the apple. I realise they are meant to be symbolic but most of them have the overlying tone that man will always fail that destiny of failure is wired in us somehow and we can't do it on our own. I think most religions will eventually become what Greek mythology became. An interesting point of veiw from primitave people who didnt have the answers to questions they asked so they made up funny little stories to explain how the world works. Now please dont say I dont believe in god or evolution neither is true I just think most reiligion is brainwash junkfood for people who can't form their own opinions. You can't say evolution has no merit whatsoever. Also you can't say a god didn't create us instantly. The truth is no ones brian on this earth works better than yours (in some respect of course) you know just as much about how this world was created as the Pope does.

God is an American.
 
I'd like to know how it's possible to have mathematical proof that there is a 'God'..

I kinda find it hard to believe that it can be mathematically proven that 'God' exists. Your cousin would definately become famous if its possible and true..

 
It wouldn't be a mathematical proof, it would be a logical proof. Well I guess a discrete proof can be considered a mathematical proof, but you don't proove it by numbers. You'd prove it through the properties of logic such as modus ponus or modus tollens (although it would never be THAT simple). Another problem I think you would run into trying to prove or disprove the existence of a higher being logically is that noone could agree on a holistic set of major and minor premises that would need to be met. I don't know how I'd prove the existence of myself mathematically with numbers, but I can prove it logically.

For a set of people on earth, if Matt activates an available sense then matt exists

People oin Ohio can see Matt

Therefore Matt exists

This is Universal Modus Ponus

For all x on set X such that P(x)->Q(x)

since P(a)

therefore Q(a)

See... you could maybe possibly argue that the implications for my existence on those premises are not enough. It would be difficult to come up with a complete logical set of premises to prove or disprove the existence of God.

 
^Except that's pre-first year and his stuff is graduate level, so I understand like NONE of the symbols involved... and no it doesn't involve numbers, only symbols. He had to explain them to me. But it wasn't very long, less than a page of actual logical calculation. It would probably take 50 pages to effectively explain the premises behind it though.

 
^ I'll go check it out, I was just trying to keep it as simple as possible for this board to get the gist of shit. I am a computer science and math major, so let's see what I can make of it.

 
Haha nope, nobody gets to see it until it's published. I obviously don't remember it and he wouldn't even let me keep a copy, they're worried about someone else getting credit, because it's a pretty big deal.

 
That's 'kind of' what I'm saying. But I mean 'effects' can be very very subjective. Religious people could come up with all kinds of 'effects.' That's why I illustrated the difficulty in defining a set on a given domain and a conclusion based on a set of perfect premises.

 
yeah- i mean im totally for ( well maybe not totally) religion and faith and all that stuff, but yet teaching it in a classroom (even if tried to be hid by the name 'intelligent design') just spells trouble, i mean seperation of church and state and all that good stuff

*live 4 life*

~Shelby~
 
when they only teach darwinism they are infact teaching religion. it is secular humanism, not a supernatural based or theistic religion, but it is a following of people who believe in the material world alone. they believe that everything can be explained by science. while not a religon in the typical sence it is still a belief and is faith based. evolution was such a shoddy theory that darwin admitted he was wrong on his death bed.

Drivin that Train
 
Hey gravteck, you're right, we never came close to agreeing but I did always enjoy argueing with you

~~Phunkin Phatt Phreerider~~

#Cut the Jibba Jabba Crazy Fools! Start Skiing!#

*Be greatful, everyday, for snow, mountains, gravity and skiing*

@Talent Is Important, But Image Is God!@

%Jesus Is My Homeboy%
 
BigJ: Religion requires a deity, or at the very least a clergy. Materialism is a school of thought. Any comparison between the two should be taken metaphorically. But your point is well taken, belief in God and disbelief in the same are simply two equal and opposite points of view.

 
the base philosophy of education is to give everyone all the options and allow them to decide, just like you parents did Shelby. We did have a worlds religion class at my public high school and we were the FIRST blue ribbon school in the nation (awarded by Congress in DC for excellence in education)... That was in 1996, I believe, and there have been about 200 since. So your comments about it causing the loss of accreditation are unfounded. Link to Blue Ribbon information

This is an argument that will go on for a very long time, until the second coming of Christ, and is very hard to prove or disprove. I would, however, like to make some random points about what I read on here.

The pope has the same opportunity to be close to God as I do. Christianity is the formation of a personal relationship with God and at which point everyone is your brother/sister and equal under God (regardless of your sins if you repent).

-----

Here is my question for the evolutionists; How did the big bang happen? If a point that was infinity small and infinity massive were to have existed there would be no natural force that could have separated it because of it’s infinitely strong gravitational force.

-----

The New Testament was written shortly after the time JC was here on earth. While the majority of the Old Testament was written down during the Babylonian captivity of the jews from their home land by, I believe, Hamurabi. They wrote it down amid fears that it would be lost as the elders past on during their captivity. Before that it was a very carefully practiced oral tradition where every verse and chapter was memorize word for word. Over the hundreds of years a couple words might have changed but the meaning would have stayed the same. Oral tradition is something lost on our culture, it was their sole job to remember the scripture and to pass it on to his replacement.

 
^I have a question for the religious one,

if God is All-powerful, all-knowing and benevolent, why is it that there is evil in the world?

 
because God gave us free will and we went against God at some point, releasing evil into the world.

 
sorry for the double post, but i did answer your question based on my beliefs, now I would appreciate it if you'd answer mine based on yours.

 
i'll give a hand with this

Evil is nothing but the perversion of good, such as in a quest for power, money, etc. God did not create evil but he did give man free will, and it turns out that man inhearently sinfull since the fall(Adam and Eve). It was satan who came in as a fallen angel to mutilate the goodness of the garden, and being that man had free will sin was born. I am gonna leave it open from here but nice prerehersed question

Drivin that Train
 
So why, if he's all powerful, can't he just remove evil and leave us with a perfect world and free will? The argument that he has to leave everything as we made it is inconsistent. He could keep fixing everything as much as he liked, and we'd still have free will, just no adverse consequences.

By the way, your big bang question requires an in-depth knowledge of physics that only a graduate student or PHD could answer effectively... I hope you didn't expect a solid answer on a ski site.

Out of curiosity, can you prove God exists, or do you think that we shouldn't try, and just accept it on faith? That seems to be a popular nonconfrontational school of thought among religious individuals.

 
If you're interested, here's what C.S. Lewis and David hume have to say about the issue:

If God were good, He would wish to make his creatures perfectly happy and if God were almighty He would be able to do what He wished. But the creatures are not happy. Therefore, God lacks either goodness, or power, or both.

While some might complain that this soft-pedals the problem -- it isn't just the lack of happiness but the abundance of misery that creates the conundrum -- it will do. Lewis's approach to the problem is to question a basic metaphysical assumption of the argument -- that an omnipotent being really could wipe away our tears and heal our direst ills. To cast doubt on this assumption, he needs to start by asking just what omnipotence really amounts to and to do that, he needs to investigate the concept of impossibility.

Most so-called impossible things are impossible unless some impediment is removed. For example, Lewis tells us, if I break my leg, then it is impossible for me to get to the top floor of the building unless someone helps me. Sometimes we can see clearly what sort of 'unless' clause is called for. Other times, it isn't clear whether any exceptions are possible. Human vision and the nature of light being what they are, we can't see around corners. Could it have been otherwise? Lewis says -- reasonably enough -- that he doesn't know.

This last example points to a distinction: the distinction between relative impossibility and absolute impossibility. Things being what they are, I can't lift a cow. But there is nothing deeply impossible about this. Other things are impossible, period. It is impossible, period to make a round square.

I've noticed that a lot of people scoff at this idea. They say 'Oh! Maybe God could just do something we can't understand or imagine, but if only we could understand it, we would see that he had made a round square.

Nonsense.

Literally.

A square has straight sides. That's part of what it is to be a square. Round things aren't straight. If they were, they wouldn't be round. There is nothing deep here. To say that something is a round square is to talk nonsense. It means only marginally more than to say that something is a furpled burgledurff. God can't make a furpled burgledurff because it doesn't mean anything. God can't make a round square because what it means is incoherent. Nothing God might do would count as making a round square. And to say that all this is beyond our comprehension is simply wrong. It isn't beyond our comprehension at all that straight things aren't round. It is as obvious as things get.

Lewis's point is that it is no limitation on God's power that God can't do contradictory things. The reason God can't is that there is nothing that would count as doing them, so there is nothing here for God to do. (The original 'There's no there there'...)

It remains true that all things are possible with God: the intrinsic impossibilities are not things but nonentities. It is no more possible for God than for the weakest of His creatures to carry out both of two mutually exclusive alternative; not because His power meets with an obstacle, but because nonsense remains nonsense even when we talk it about God.

Perhaps Lewis is wrong about this. But if you can mount a convincing argument to show that he is, you have a promising career ahead of you as a professional philosopher. Still, what can he do with this observation? After all, it isn't absolutely or intrinsically impossible for God to make a world in which there is no suffering or pain.

Lewis, of course realizes this as well as the next person. His point is not that it is absolutely impossible for God to make a pain-free universe. His point is that it is absolutely impossible for God to make a world like that and to put free, independent creatures in it. His claim is this:

...not even Omnipotence could create a society of free souls without at the same time creating a relatively independent and 'inexorable' nature.

Lewis takes it for granted that a world with a society of free beings is better than a world with no such things. He doesn't argue for this, though there is a hint of an argument when he points out that if something in the world is convenient for me, it is probably not convenient for someone else. This is not a bad thing, Lewis writes:

It furnishes occasions for all those acts of courtesy, respect, and unselfishness by which love and good humor and modesty express themselves.

To which Lewis might have added more glamorous virtues such as courage and heroism.

Although it isn't a primary part of Lewis's argument, this idea is worth lingering over: a world with no pain nor any possibility of pain is a lesser world than one in which we can suffer. The reason is that a world without pain is a world without the deepest sort of good: moral good. Behind this is the point that a world with choices is better than one without. And for choices to mean anything deep, some of the alternatives will have to be bad.

There is an air of paradox about this claim, but it seems hard to deny. The fact that things can be bad makes them better. And there also seems to be no doubt that this can carry us at least some distance towards a solution to the intellectual problem of evil. In one sense, Lewis's essay amounts to bringing some of the details into focus.

Begin with what it is to be a self at all. A self has to have self-consciousness. But Lewis argues that we could only have a sense of self if there was something apart from the self -- an 'other' -- to offer a contrast. This raises a question about God: how could God have a sense of self? Lewis appeals to the Christian idea of the Holy Trinity -- the claim that God is three Persons (Father, Son and Holy Spirit) in one Being: there is 'society' within God's inner nature. Whether or not this is the only solution to the problem, I note in passing that Plotinus, the third-century neoplatonic philosopher, held that the ultimate being, the 'One,' in his philosophy, is not capable of knowledge precise because it involves no differentiation whatsoever.

Of course, we could imagine a world with creatures whose only relationship was with God,. and whose only real choice was to love God more than self or vice-versa. But Lewis takes it for granted that a world with a society of creatures is better yet. And while I have no particular argument in favor of this claim, I have no inclination to doubt it.

If I knew other creatures 'directly' by some sort of immediate acquaintance with their thoughts, I would find it difficult, if not impossible to tell 'them' from 'me.' Is that odd thought I just had a burp from my own unconscious? Or is it a transmission from another being? Lewis thinks it would be hard to tell unless there was an external, material medium -- air, light, paper, whatever -- through which we communicated. Lewis puts it neatly:

Matter, which keeps souls apart, also brings them together. It enables each of us to have an 'outside' as well as an 'inside', so that what are acts of will and thought for you are noises and glances for me; you are enabled not only to be, but to appear, and hence I have the pleasure of making your acquaintance.

This is an argument for the necessity of matter -- of an external (and externalizing) medium in any world that has a society of distinct, free beings who can keep themselves straight from one another. But Lewis continues: this matter will have to have a fixed nature that isn't fixed by our wills. The problem is this: there are many of us. If the world is made to fit my will, it can at least potentially differ from yours. But in that case, my 'will' will not be able to bring anything about; you will determine everything. So matter provides a neutral arena for the exercise of the will.

For choices to be significant, furthermore, some of them will have to be more agreeable than others. If no matter what we choose is pleasant, choices are morally trivial. There has to be a possibility of pain. Furthermore, this is not simply evil. Our pain receptors warn us of danger, and the warnings, while technically painful are not things that we necessarily mind. (As long as I don't get too near the fire, the process of finding out by a little sting of heat that I'm too close doesn't really bother me, Lewis points out.)

But now we return to a point we noted earlier. There is no way that this fixed, neutral external medium in which our choices are played out can make things agreeable to everyone at once. This makes the moral virtues possible, but it makes moral evil possible as well.

Now God does sometimes intervene, according to Lewis. God does sometimes perform miracles that disrupt the course of nature and save us from suffering. But if this were routine, our choices would be too few to add up to anything.

Lewis doesn't claim to have deep insight into just which features of the world are necessary for meaningful moral life; he takes himself to be making plausible speculations. But he does believe that whatever the details may be, they are of the general sort and level of complexity that he indicates. And the upshot is that a world is better for containing the real possibility of evil, because without it there can't be meaningful action. The question is: does this really eliminate the problem? If God can actually perform miracles, then haven't there been more than enough situations in history that called for just that sort of intervention? Presumably God could have stopped the holocaust. A weakened blood vessel inside Hitler's skull at a crucial stage in the process might have been enough. Is our freedom worth the amount of evil that Hitler brought about? We could ask the same of the Inquisition or the Killing Fields of Cambodia. And we could ask the same of disasters that are not the result of anyone's bad moral choices at all. Most of the starving people in the world have no real choice in the matter at all. Perhaps the right balance has been struck. But some people find this hard to believe. To some people, the world simply doesn't seem to be the sort of place that a good God would create. It seems to be a mere moral chaos.

This theme is in the background of the selection from Hume's Dialogues Concerning Natural Religion that deal with the problem of evil. As you will recall, the dialogues have three characters. One is Cleanthes, the defender of the argument from design and opponent of the cosmological argument. Another is Demea, who accepts the cosmological argument but rejects Cleanthes' anthropomorphic conception of God. The central figure - the one who seems most closely to represent Hume - is Philo, the seemingly-mystical, more plausibly skeptical opponent of all anthropomorphism and of all proofs for the existence of God. A the beginning of our selection, Philo and Demea review the evils of the world as a way of making out the claim that God can't be like us, and in particular that to talk of God's 'goodness' in the terms that we understand is ludicrous. Philo puts it this way:

HIs wisdom is infinite; He is never mistaken in choosing the means to any end; But the course of nature tends not to human or animal felicity: Therefore, it is not established for that purpose. Through the whole compass of human knowledge there are no inferences more certain and infallible than these. In what respect, then, do his benevolence and mercy resemble the benevolence and mercy of men?

Cleanthes offers two sorts of responses. At first he protests the pessimism of Philo and Demea, claiming that pleasure and happiness are more common than misery and pain. But Philo protests: pleasure fades. States of happiness are transient. What he means, I take it, is that any pleasure you can think of -- food, sex, music -- fades and becomes disagreeable if we have too much of it. We become sated. But whereas pleasure tends to degenerate into unpleasantness, pain becomes all the more painful the longer it lasts.

Cleanthes' second defense is to object to the idea that God's virtues must be infinite. We have no need for such claims:

The terms 'admirable,' excellent,' superlatively great,' 'wise,' 'holy'; these sufficiently fill the imaginations of men, and anything beyond, besides it leads to absurdities, has no influence on the affections or sentiments.

If we give up any analogies between God and humanity, Cleanthes insists, we give up religion itself, because we no longer know what we are talking about. If we insist on the infinite perfection of God, we can't solve the problem of evil. The solution is to believe in a finite God. That is all the religious imagination needs or even can deal with. And it avoids the problem of evil.

Philo doesn't deny that what we see in the world is consistent with the existence of a very good and powerful finite God. But he insists that the world we see isn't the sort we would imagine if we, so to speak, came to the universe anew with only the knowledge that such a God created it. That means that we could never infer the existence of such a God from what we see in the world. In fact, Philo says, there are four hypotheses about the causes of the universe:

that they are endowed with perfect goodness; that they have perfect malice; that they are opposite and have both goodness and malice; that they have neither goodness nor malice.

Which is most likely? Since we see both good and evil, we can't reason to either of the first two. Hume adds that the uniformity and steadiness of general laws of nature seems to rule out the third. So we are left with the forth: the sources of the universe are neither good nor bad by our lights.

Is this the reasonable conclusion? The bit in the argument about the steadiness of the laws of nature is not very convincing. The only way of interpreting it that seems to make it even remotely plausible is to say that the laws of nature are neither moral nor immoral, and the world seems to operate by laws. But this is unconvincing because the total design including the circumstances on which the laws operate, is what is at issue. Mixed causes could produce mixed results partly by way of laws that are themselves neutral. The world contains goodness and beauty and it contains horror and pain. It is at least consistent to claim that both are there deliberately. But it isn't clear how much damage this does to Philo's point, it is also perfectly consistent with the facts to say that the world is the result of blind causes that have no moral interest in us or anything else. If we have to infer which story is right, we have no clear reason for ruling this possibility out.

Now Philo's claim - at least the one that Hume puts in his mouth - is that we can't infer the existence of God at all. Belief in God is a matter of faith. Hume himself says this in his own words in his essay 'On Miracles' in the Enquiry Concerning Human Understanding. However, one suspects that Hume himself saw such faith as anything but a virtue, as the end of his essay on miracles more than hints:

...upon the whole, we may conclude, that the Christian Religion not only wass at first attended with miracles, but even at this day cannot b believed by any reasonable person without one. Mere reason is insufficient to convince us of its veracity: and whoever is moved by Faith to assent to it, is conscious of a continued miracle in his own person, which subverts all the principles of his understanding, and gives him a determination to believe what is most contrary to custom and experience.

Whatever you make of that, it is not unlikely that no solution to the intellectual problem of evil will ever be entirely satisfactory.

Any questions?

 
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