Instructor Question

[SkierPT]

I’ve been thinking about getting me level 1/2 ski instructor cert this year. For anyone who does instruct, I have a question.

Most lessons are given through the resort, but are private lessons allowed as a private contractor?

I’ve always wondered if coaches and such I see are employed by the resort or what? I’m assuming major liability and legal issues, so I’m coming to NS for answers!

 

[Corey_O132]

Depends where you are, but generally speaking - no, you can't go off and work as a private contractor.

However, there's some organizations like Ski Club Vail that use private instructors, pay them more, and require certs.

I have a buddy who's instructed for years, received his cert 1 and makes $25 an hour working for Vail (FUCK Vail)

At the end of the day though you have to instruct a good amount to make back what you paid for your certs. It can be worth it, but fuck PSIA. It's a fucking garbage organization that doesn't actually look out for the good of instructors, and sucks money out of people to certify ski instructor & then has memebership dues every year. Plus they have a ton of old fucks who think they're gods at skiing because of their technical form, but can't ski anything that's not a groomer. They push "proper form" when skiing at a high level should be more of an expression of style, not form.

I think maybe 10-15 years ago it might've been a decent organization from what I've heard from some old heads. However, now it's devolved to trash and is super money driven. FUCK PSIA, save your money or just get your cert 1, meet some rich folks and instruct their kids every season & get tipped good.

I’ve been thinking about getting me level 1/2 ski instructor cert this year. For anyone who does instruct, I have a question.

Most lessons are given through the resort, but are private lessons allowed as a private contractor?

I’ve always wondered if coaches and such I see are employed by the resort or what? I’m assuming major liability and legal issues, so I’m coming to NS for answers!

 

[BigmoneyMatt]

I’ve been thinking about getting me level 1/2 ski instructor cert this year. For anyone who does instruct, I have a question.

Most lessons are given through the resort, but are private lessons allowed as a private contractor?

I’ve always wondered if coaches and such I see are employed by the resort or what? I’m assuming major liability and legal issues, so I’m coming to NS for answers!

Many ski areas have a anti-"poaching" policy. Meaning you cannot use their facility's for coaching/instructing, and that all coaching/instructing is done by the company.

 

[hoodratz47]

Psia 2 here. Psia sucks so much. Everyone has to be homogenized. Which is just not possible.

 

[BradFiAusNzCoCa]

I’ve instructed in the past. I hate PSIA for exactly what you said. I quickly learned, too, that good instructor =/= good skier.

OP, most resorts will not let you instruct if you’re not affiliated with them and will actively prosecute if they catch you

Psia 2 here. Psia sucks so much. Everyone has to be homogenized. Which is just not possible.

 

[SkierPT]

Damn it. So probably not worth for me to get level 1 if it’s a side hustle type gig then

 

[GayWolf420]

Damn it. So probably not worth for me to get level 1 if it’s a side hustle type gig then

It depends. Coaching is amazing if you have the patience and can ski decently (Spent the last few winters as a L100 IFSA Jr. coach), but private contracting as an instructor will land you in some really hot water and will get you banned from resorts for life, at least what I've been told.

 

[icy_park_jump]

Damn it. So probably not worth for me to get level 1 if it’s a side hustle type gig then

Level 1 is super easy, and it definitely gives you some credibility as an instructor if u want to try to get a job somewhere else, some places it gets you a pay raise.

 

[Christian_Bale]

I coach in Canada so it might be different here. Private lessons aren't allowed at my local hill. All the coaching is either through the resort itself or through a club that has permission from the resort. I coach for the freestyle club and I find it super rewarding. I also don't have to worry about insurance

 

[nmwninjart]

At the end of the day though you have to instruct a good amount to make back what you paid for your certs. It can be worth it, but fuck PSIA. It's a fucking garbage organization that doesn't actually look out for the good of instructors, and sucks money out of people to certify ski instructor & then has memebership dues every year. Plus they have a ton of old fucks who think they're gods at skiing because of their technical form, but can't ski anything that's not a groomer. They push "proper form" when skiing at a high level should be more of an expression of style, not form.

I think maybe 10-15 years ago it might've been a decent organization from what I've heard from some old heads. However, now it's devolved to trash and is super money driven. FUCK PSIA, save your money or just get your cert 1, meet some rich folks and instruct their kids every season & get tipped good.

How much are these certificates and membership fees?

 

[icy_park_jump]

How much are these certificates and membership fees?

It's like $150 a year and It was $200 for my level 1 exam. It is a large chunk of what you earn in a season if you are only teaching weekends or smth. I did use the level 1 exam as a lift ticket for 2 days, so you can get back some of the cost. I would definitely not enjoy paying that to take the level 2 exam and failing lol. They do give you pro deals on equipment but so far I haven't bought anything with it yet.

**This post was edited on Oct 23rd 2022 at 10:02:09pm

**This post was edited on Oct 23rd 2022 at 10:04:01pm

 

[SkierPT]

What was the process like for level 1? Level 2? The site isn’t very clear….

 

[icy_park_jump]

What was the process like for level 1? Level 2? The site isn’t very clear….

Level 1 we just went out skiing and did some drills on day 1, then we had to teach something to the rest of the group on day 2, or show how we teach something. If you have some experience teaching wedge and basic parallel turns you should be good.

 

[jompcock]

Many ski areas have a anti-"poaching" policy. Meaning you cannot use their facility's for coaching/instructing, and that all coaching/instructing is done by the company.

Does this mean a ski team can't use their mountain for training? Seems kinda absurd and hard to enforce.

 

[b_in_subtle]

A lot of places will get upset if you try that.

I’d try to get an instructor job without psia first to save some time/money. psia is a bit of a scam IMO but a lot of larger resorts really push people to get them in order to instruct.

If they do want you to have it just do it through the resort, take your free pass and pro codes and be happy.

also you don’t want to legal smoke of someone getting hurt during a lesson outside of the Ski school that has insurance for those events. Both the injured person and the resort would have grounds for a lawsuit

 

[hoodratz47]

So I work weekends at Anthony lakes. I work full time at a hospital in LaGrande. I work up there so I get my pass and letters to other ski areas. If I teach a lesson or two it pays for my gas up to ski. That's why I do it. Also I get really stoked on teaching kids and helping adults fine tune there skills. And for full honesty I only ski the psia way when we have yearly recertification.

It can be fun. It can also be really lame

Damn it. So probably not worth for me to get level 1 if it’s a side hustle type gig then

 

[b0ss]

Private lesson work is good enough and that way you are legally protected. Wouldn't mess with under the table lessons unless client is flying me out to their destination and we ski as “friends”.

 

[SkierPT]

Private lesson work is good enough and that way you are legally protected. Wouldn't mess with under the table lessons unless client is flying me out to their destination and we ski as “friends”.

This is more or less my thinking as far as my future potential business model. Along with providing concierge physical therapy services

 

[FigNewton]

I work as the Head Freeski Coach at Jackson Hole and own a private coaching company (Alpenglow Ski Academy). I do all my coaching online, so I don't have to deal with resorts, but I did do some research and most resorts deny "private coaching", but if you start a legitimate business you do have the opportunity to get an agreement with a resort. Many of the big resorts allow multiple teams to practice. The Woodward resorts seem to be pretty good about this.

As far as certs go, I have done both IFSA and USASA Level 100's with plans to do 200's this season. The IFSA 100 is all online and pretty cheap. It's good if you want to coach comp kids and not just teach beginners. The USASA is half online, half on-snow, but covers way more technical knowledge.

 

[theabortionator]

You're not allowed to coach/teach at most ski areas. You're completely able to do it anyway though if you wanted to. Being low key about it is a good move. If you have a way to get customers you can send it, link up at the mountain and get some $$.

Would be kind of shitty to do at small mtns but the big ones that charge insane $$$ and only gove a little bit to the instructors? Yeah fuck em. Save people some loot and make yourself a few bucks too

 

[cydwhit]

Agree with everything everyone else said. Resorts lock down who can and can't coach there, for good reason. Same goes for guides, although plenty of folks moonlight as unlicensed guides and get paid in gift cards. When shit hits the fan, you're in big trouble.

The only sorta workaround I've seen is nannying. In big mountain towns nannying can be a sweet gig. Plenty of rich folks don't want to have to see/ski with their kids all day. So they'll hire somebody to babysit them. If that somebody makes their kids better at skiing while they're at it, awesome! I went on a tinder date with a girl who had a pretty sweet gig, she'd pick up these kids from their slope side McMansion, and get paid $25 an hour all day to ski with them, coach them a little, and feed them lunch and crap. Shit, some folks even have live-in nannies.

 

[SkierPT]

Agree with everything everyone else said. Resorts lock down who can and can't coach there, for good reason. Same goes for guides, although plenty of folks moonlight as unlicensed guides and get paid in gift cards. When shit hits the fan, you're in big trouble.

The only sorta workaround I've seen is nannying. In big mountain towns nannying can be a sweet gig. Plenty of rich folks don't want to have to see/ski with their kids all day. So they'll hire somebody to babysit them. If that somebody makes their kids better at skiing while they're at it, awesome! I went on a tinder date with a girl who had a pretty sweet gig, she'd pick up these kids from their slope side McMansion, and get paid $25 an hour all day to ski with them, coach them a little, and feed them lunch and crap. Shit, some folks even have live-in nannies.

Giving it more thought the last few days, this was actually an idea I had. A nanny or “chaperone” title.

 

[GayWolf420]

Giving it more thought the last few days, this was actually an idea I had. A nanny or “chaperone” title.

Coaching for a program is the same thing too, haha. Lot's of chaperoning and making sure they're not doing anything dumb, saying bad stuff, being mean to their teammates, and stuff like that. Think of it as a form of childcare on skis. Its fun if you're into it. Some kids are tough to deal with however.

 

[SkierPT]

Coaching for a program is the same thing too, haha. Lot's of chaperoning and making sure they're not doing anything dumb, saying bad stuff, being mean to their teammates, and stuff like that. Think of it as a form of childcare on skis. Its fun if you're into it. Some kids are tough to deal with however.

And this, as a private contractor, isn’t illegal or frowned on?

 

[WoFlowz]

Coaching for a program is the same thing too, haha. Lot's of chaperoning and making sure they're not doing anything dumb, saying bad stuff, being mean to their teammates, and stuff like that. Think of it as a form of childcare on skis. Its fun if you're into it. Some kids are tough to deal with however.

what he said^^^

 

[GayWolf420]

And this, as a private contractor, isn’t illegal or frowned on?

"Frowned upon" in the sense that other head coaches and program directors don't like it because they prefer people working for them, but I have peers of mine that have gone onto the private coaching thing and have had great success if that's what you're asking.

 

[ajbski]

best to set up a LLC and get permission/contract from a ski resort to conduct business there.

-At lake louise, no instruction beyond the ski school, ski club and CSIA functions were permitted officially.

-At mslm in ontario (a privatley owned ski hill), basically everyone is able to get permission. they run louis ski school, goldenhawks ski school, freestyle ontario, agenda freeski, axis freestyle (defunct) and a bunch more out of the hill. many of these ski schools dont have csia accredited instructors.

unofficially anything goes. if approached you can just say "im teaching my friends" and there is nothing wrong with that. just make sure you have the right coverage incase shit goes south.

 

[theabortionator]

best to set up a LLC and get permission/contract from a ski resort to conduct business there.

-At lake louise, no instruction beyond the ski school, ski club and CSIA functions were permitted officially.

-At mslm in ontario (a privatley owned ski hill), basically everyone is able to get permission. they run louis ski school, goldenhawks ski school, freestyle ontario, agenda freeski, axis freestyle (defunct) and a bunch more out of the hill. many of these ski schools dont have csia accredited instructors.

unofficially anything goes. if approached you can just say "im teaching my friends" and there is nothing wrong with that. just make sure you have the right coverage incase shit goes south.

I guess it depends on where you live. In America i don't think there's very many that would give you a permission and a bunch that would be a very hard no.

Unless you already know a place is cool I wouldn't ask here.

When I worked in NZ thwre were coaching programs that weren't through the mtn and they had jackets and stuff. But I've never heard of a mtn in the states being cool with it.

 

[ajbski]

also, in csia:

-level 1 course is just about how to teach beginners. first timers to people who have been skiing a couple of times. initiating the fundamentals without the technical knowledge.

-level 2 course is about teaching people to transition from beginner to intermediate. getting the students to ask and be able to self reflect whether they are using techniques or not. (initiating the turn from the lower body, separation for angulation, mobility in the hips knees ankles for balance, rhythm and coordination)

-level 3 is about teaching people to consolidate the techniques. i.e where to balance at which point for different types of turn shapes and terrain

-level 4 is about teaching refinement. how to get more performance on more challenging terrain. most instructors never actually make it to this level.

at each of these levels you have to be able to not only demonstrate that your skiing abilities/technique/understanding is there, but also that you can teach it. drills, exercises, non vocal feedback and so on. then you go through all the levels again for teaching new instructors how to teach.

I would strongly recommend to anyone to take a ski instructors course if they want to understand the kinematics that are involved in skiing. On the other hand it really does ruin a lot of the fun you have skiing. think of someone who obsessed with their golf swing to the point where golfing is more of a chore than leisure. since becoming a coach and instructor, im constantly thinking/being critical about my turn shape and my body position instead of just going out and having fun.

 

[jompcock]

Coach a freestyle team if you can. Better pay, get to actually shred the mtn, ski park etc.

 

[icy_park_jump]

Coach a freestyle team if you can. Better pay, get to actually shred the mtn, ski park etc.

We actually get a ton of down time to ski at my instructor job, but I know that's not the same everywhere. My boss actually said we weren't supposed to wear instructor jackets in the park, and separately said we weren't supposed to be skiing without our jackets. I'm over it though because all the snowboarders do it so I just go with them. I'm definitely not good enough to teach freestyle though.

 

[cool_name]

Who the fuck would hire a ski instructor if it didn’t let you skip the lines?

 

[powpatrol]

also, in csia:

-level 1 course is just about how to teach beginners. first timers to people who have been skiing a couple of times. initiating the fundamentals without the technical knowledge.

-level 2 course is about teaching people to transition from beginner to intermediate. getting the students to ask and be able to self reflect whether they are using techniques or not. (initiating the turn from the lower body, separation for angulation, mobility in the hips knees ankles for balance, rhythm and coordination)

-level 3 is about teaching people to consolidate the techniques. i.e where to balance at which point for different types of turn shapes and terrain

-level 4 is about teaching refinement. how to get more performance on more challenging terrain. most instructors never actually make it to this level.

at each of these levels you have to be able to not only demonstrate that your skiing abilities/technique/understanding is there, but also that you can teach it. drills, exercises, non vocal feedback and so on. then you go through all the levels again for teaching new instructors how to teach.

I would strongly recommend to anyone to take a ski instructors course if they want to understand the kinematics that are involved in skiing. On the other hand it really does ruin a lot of the fun you have skiing. think of someone who obsessed with their golf swing to the point where golfing is more of a chore than leisure. since becoming a coach and instructor, im constantly thinking/being critical about my turn shape and my body position instead of just going out and having fun.

i’m doing my csia level 3 this year, any tips? i’m confident in getting the ski section but feel like the teach might need some refinement.

 

[ajbski]

i’m doing my csia level 3 this year, any tips? i’m confident in getting the ski section but feel like the teach might need some refinement.

The two times I’ve done my level three, I actually failed my skiing and not the teach.

- for the ski, when you do the ski-off with another instructor, don’t let the pressure get to you. Just keep up with the others pace and relax. Everyone tenses up and looks kind of robotic and stiff.

-For the teach, put more emphasis on figuring out which skills need work. Most course conductors hate it when someone claims they can figure out what someone is doing wrong in one run. I’ve always liked to use a narrowing corridor test to expose the flaws in people’s technique. Find a long pitch with the same slope throughout, get them to start with 3 cat track width and by the end of the pitch be at 1 cat track while maintaining the same speed. Do the same in a place with variable terrain.

if you can, do the level 3 at your own mountain.

 

[GayWolf420]

Who the fuck would hire a ski instructor if it didn’t let you skip the lines?

Honestly some days as a coach we would just all rush the ski school lane and no one could stop us.

 

[r00kie]

Obligatory screw PSIA. When I worked all of my hills team were hired as private contractors for the hills ski school. Could you possibly do that on your own? Maybe but you'd have to pay for your pass and keep all things under the table real hush hush which makes it too hard to build a client base that would make it worth it. Also you get the benefit of assumed credibility when working through the resort. Hard to trust somebody doing it on their own in a gray market kind of way.

 

[r00kie]

So I work weekends at Anthony lakes. I work full time at a hospital in LaGrande. I work up there so I get my pass and letters to other ski areas. If I teach a lesson or two it pays for my gas up to ski. That's why I do it. Also I get really stoked on teaching kids and helping adults fine tune there skills. And for full honesty I only ski the psia way when we have yearly recertification.

It can be fun. It can also be really lame

Anthony Lakes? Taking a group of students from the organization I work with up there in March and getting them in lessons before we ski the rest of the day. Hope to see ya there!

 

[icy_park_jump]

Obligatory screw PSIA. When I worked all of my hills team were hired as private contractors for the hills ski school. Could you possibly do that on your own? Maybe but you'd have to pay for your pass and keep all things under the table real hush hush which makes it too hard to build a client base that would make it worth it. Also you get the benefit of assumed credibility when working through the resort. Hard to trust somebody doing it on their own in a gray market kind of way.

pssst ... wanna pay me for a ski lesson?? I'm really good i promise

 

[freestyler540]

Level 1: easy, dont worry about it. As long as you keep your mouth shut, everyone passes.

Level 2 is really up to the instructor. I had a really bad experience. Dude though he was the second coming of christ on skis, but couldnt ski moguls or park. My parents had a series of great, loving instructors.

My best piece of advice for private “unaffiliated” lessons is dont. The main reason is liability. If something goes wrong and your student hurts themselves, even if completly out of your control, you are liable. Lawsuits and fucking expensives and losses will bankcrupt you.

With official ski instructing with a school, insurance will cover you no matter what. Once money is involved, crazy shit can happen.

My work around is mentoring. As long as everybody agrees that personal responsability is the way to go, you can coach people. Without charging money, you free yourself from legal responsability and repercussion.

Some clients actually sue the instructor because they got hurt in the park after their first lesson. At least with the ski school, you will get free lawyers and wont have to pay if you lose.

 

[hoodratz47]

I would love to help with that!!!! I definitely use some psia stuff. But for me. I try to make each student ski the best way thier own bodies can handle. No human is exactly the same. No stance is the same. No ankle flexion is the same. I hate the Pisa homogenized attitude. I've had psia tech team guys either be. ONE WAY TO DO IT. And there are the really good ones who are very subjective.

Tldr you will enjoy Anthony lakes. I'll be in a green and black jacket with green goggles and NS stickers on my skis. Just ask how to get to chads gap

Anthony Lakes? Taking a group of stuodents from the organization I work with up there in March and getting them in lessons before we ski the rest of the day. Hope to see ya there!

 

[r00kie]

I would love to help with that!!!! I definitely use some psia stuff. But for me. I try to make each student ski the best way thier own bodies can handle. No human is exactly the same. No stance is the same. No ankle flexion is the same. I hate the Pisa homogenized attitude. I've had psia tech team guys either be. ONE WAY TO DO IT. And there are the really good ones who are very subjective.

Tldr you will enjoy Anthony lakes. I'll be in a green and black jacket with green goggles and NS stickers on my skis. Just ask how to get to chads gap

Sounds good! Don't worry we tip well and hope to see ya there whether you're helping us out or just out ripping.

 

[SkierPT]

Thoughts on the term “Ski Nanny” or “babysitter” or “chaperone” ?

 

[hoodratz47]

Some of my best tips have been from babysitting and just playing in the snow with a kid

Thoughts on the term “Ski Nanny” or “babysitter” or “chaperone” ?

 

[ajbski]

Thoughts on the term “Ski Nanny” or “babysitter” or “chaperone” ?

You mean other people calling instructors that?

yea it’s absolutely right. Basically until you have your level three and/or you’ve been working at a ski school for a long time, most of the lessons you’ll do are kids lessons.

Ski schools biggest revenue comes from parents just getting rid of their kids so they can go shred. I wouldn’t let it deter you from becoming a ski instructor unless you hate kids. It’s challenging but also rewarding. Kids learn a lot quicker than adults and you can get results in just one lesson. On the other hand you can get kids that just don’t want to be there and it’s tough to get them to have fun and enjoy it.

when you do get to the stage where your clients shred. it’s a great job! Most of the time, those clients hire an instructor kind of like a guide, to show them around, show them little pow stashes and cool spots. They get assurance that they’ll get some good skiing within their abilities.

if you’re working full time with a ski school, you do actually get to ski ALOT. I would say ski school knows more of a mountain than basically anyone else working on the hill, even patrol.