In response to: "September 11th, a forgotten legacy?"

American lives matter more to American people just like any other country. They were the world trade towers, yes. This doesn't mean that it really had an effect on the whole world (which it kind of did). It hit America hard. People realized finally that it doesn't take much to wake a nation. I love being American. I love knowing what happened in Rwanda, Sudan, Somalia, Serbia, Bosnia, etc. I love knowing this because I care about what happens over seas. Other countries are so obsessed with finding reasons to pick apart America that they really don't even try and see the good. They base all their opinions on one man. It's quite sad that you can't even strike up a friendly conversation with someone from a different country because you are American. Yet, so many people want to move here. So many people are given refuge here. I wish the world would stop basing everything on one man. It truly makes the world no better than the people they think they are better than. I really hope you're not assuming all Americans are ignorant. If you are you probably should just stop talking right now.
 
If I remember correctly, about two weeks after the tsunami, we were doing a fund raising effort for the tsunami (my teacher had been in thailand when it hit, but on the east coast), and at that point australia was the biggest donor of financial aid in dollars. Not just by a % of GDP, but actually in dollars. Japan was second. So the US was not actually the fastest provider of aid.

I am currently reading THE TRUTH...with jokes. in the opening section of the book, franken adresses this exxact topic... 9/11, saddam, iraq, and the surprisingly unmentioned Osama bin Laden.

A quote from Rudi Guiliani at the RNC:

It was here in 2001 in lower manhattan that GWB stood amid the fallen towers of the WTC and said to the barbaric terrorists who attacked us "They will hear from us"

They hve heard from us in iraq and we ended Saddam Husseins reign of terror.

End quote

In fact, at the RNC, saddam was mentioned 62 times, terror (ism/ists) was mentioned 79 times, and 9/11 was mentioned 37 times. Osama was mentioned once by New York Gov George Pataki.

It is clear that the objective is to convince the public that we were attacked not by Osama, but by other countries (with oil). This is deceptive.

I absolutely believe that saddam was a terrible man and it was neccessary that he be removed. However, we went to war with by telling the public that we were getting revenge and that it was neccessary to do it immediately and that we would be greeted with flowers in the streets.

In a march 7th poll (CBS/ NY times), it was found that 45% of americans believed that "Saddam Hussein was personally involved in the sept 11, 2001 terrorist attacks."

This is put into perspective when you consider that many in the bush administration had stated that iraq was not a threat shortly before the 9/11 attacks. It is clear that they had a different motive (like oil).

Colin Powell, feb 2001: the sanctions exist -- not for the purpose of hurting the Iraqi people, but for the purpose of keeping in check Saddam Hussein's ambitions toward developing weapons of mass destruction. We should constantly be reviewing our policies, constantly be looking at those sanctions to make sure that they are directed toward that purpose. That purpose is every bit as important now as it was ten years ago when we began it. And frankly they have worked. He has not developed any significant capability with respect to weapons of mass destruction. He is unable to project conventional power against his neighbors. So in effect, our policies have strengthened the security of the neighbors of Iraq...

condoleezza rice, july 2001: But in terms of Saddam Hussein being there, let's remember that his country is divided, in effect. He does not control the northern part of his country. We are able to keep arms from him. His military forces have not been rebuilt.

Dick Cheney, Aug 2002: Simply stated, there is no doubt that Saddam Hussein now has weapons of mass destruction.

Thats fucking fishy
 
You're statement does not make any sense whatsoever. According to you if I donate 10% of whatever money i have, my contribution will be more significant then if Bill Gates for example gave like one tenth of a percent of his billions of dollars. So, in essence, it doesn't matter how many people you can help, but instead we should listen to your opinion on all matters.

I can already predict that you will say a million people agree with you, but they're called communists.
 
why the hell does no one ever post back in these after i try and have a valid debate with them...sheesh
 
Read the last paragraph. I've met some awesome Americans, it's just the select few that give a bad name to everyone else. Saying all Americans are ignorant is just hypocritical. There are two sides to a coin, the good, the bad and the downright nasty. I just don't agree that taking more lives justifies what happened september 11th. The region is even more unstable than it was before. True, a heinous dictator is gone, but now they're leaderless and free to do whatever they want. There were more suicide bombings in the last 3 years than the 10 leading up to the invasion.
 
Yeah I knew you weren't really basing your opinion on all Americans, I just wanted to hear you say it flat out to make sure. You never do know...it is kind of hard to read people's minds through the internet. I agree with you Saddam is dead, and it did need to be done. I think we really didn't plan this part. We need help solving it and everyone hates us and we are too stubbourn to ask. It's a shithole and it may have been a mistake, but to those people out there who we did save...im glad they are able to live today because of something we helped with.
 
The differences between countries in raw aid quantity are dramatic, and as a result they heavily influence the overall aid scores. The Netherlands and the Scandinavian countries take the top four slots on aid, while Japan and the U.S. end up near the bottom. But quality matters too. Denmark earns its big lead on aid by eschewing small projects. And the U.S. would score higher if it did not tie 70% of its aid and gave less to autocrats in Russia, Jordan, Pakistan, and other countries

i believe this was in one of your sources ... proving our quality of aid is better , and if it wasn't an issue why'd u bring it up
 
Ah yes and Rwanda...

We may not have sent in a lot of military help, but we did get the story out there. The British left as soon as violence broke out and the French fled too. It left the place unarmed and chaotic. I agree we should have been in there the first day, but it was just complete chaos. It's very tragic when over 800,000 people lose their lives in under a hundred days. That is pretty much a Sept. 11 happening every day for a year. These were innocent women and children cut open and gutted in front of their families. It was one of the most gruesome and ungodly actions to ever take place in history. It's really sad that we didn't help. No one did. I wish the whole world would open it's eyes to this stuff that happens every day, but what's more important is if someone is getting oil at a cheaper price than you.
 
What disgusts me the most is that the American government wouldn't send troops to Rwanda because they valued 1 american life to 70,000 Rwandan lives. This is an actual number they used. The horrible thing is that now, even under RPF control the genocide is still ongoing. That whole incident is a true show of how the world doesnt care if the country in trouble has nothing to offer. (Oil!)

The fact the UN mission was only given a chapter 6 peacekeeping mandate is a joke too. A pressence without means to physically do anything. They couldnt even use force to protect themselves.
 
Ah but as I have said before...The US intervened into situations such as Bosnia, Kosovo, and Somalia. There was no oil to be found here. The US is not to blame for not helping Rwanda. The whole world is. The whole world turned it's back not just us. Evacuating what UN troops there was such a horrible thing. They could have saved thousands of lives and not lost a single UN life, but they didn't want to take the risk. It really does sadden me to see the world would turn it's back on a country in need of so much help.
 
The whole reason the US didnt want involvement in Rwanda was because of the incident in Somalia. (Black Hawk Down) They went outside their UN protocol and decided to take things into their own hands, and as a result they got their asses kicked. It's a tragedy that it happened, and that so many young american lives were wasted, but because of it, they were afraid the same would happen again in Rwanda.
 
Yes and no. Asses kicked as in 21 Americans died, maybe. At least we intervened in something and didn't just sit back like Pakistani troops in the safe zone. We stepped up. NO ONE would have been able to fight off an entire city of camoflauged enemies. The US army is the best one in the world. There's nothing to contest against. I'm not bragging it's just a fact we spend more on military than any other country. Our services go through more training. We completed the objective of taking prisoners gathering information on Aidid, and killing him. Can you blame us for not taking full responsibility again. I agree we should have done something, but it's kind of hard with no help (we seemed to do it in Iraq with motives yes). Seriously though, it was the UN and Nato's job to make sure these countries were helped. The countries in that league didn't do their job and millions of people lost their lives.
 
You can't blame any one country for what happened in Rwanda, the whole world turned a blind eye to what happened there. As for Somalia, they shouldnt have gone in, it was a logistical mistake. Yes, something needed to be done, but not like that. It's just a pitty that many lives were lost.
 
Well here's the situation...You've been in Somalia for 3 weeks. You haven't done a single thing. Taxpayers are complaining their money is going to waste. Finally someone gives you a tip off. What are you going to do? Sit there for more weeks or jump on the chance you have. Idealy, it was a good plan. The thing was the Somali Militia was ready for it.

Sorry if I seem like an asshole for trying to argue against everything...I just like to look at both sides of the spectrum.
 
Haha, no worries. It's good having a decent debate without someone being all "OMG U R PRO-TERRORIZM LOL WUT 2 DeW wit Uu?" On a side note, sorry for momentarily hijacking the thread.
 
Not like it's had anyone intelligent posting in it for a while until now. Yeah, I love having (I would call it more of a discussion than debate) with someone who doesn't have to make something up or down Bush in every point they make.
 
sorry scratch, I do not see any good in any of this. Sure I'm not the smartest person in the world when it comes to this shit, but I do know what I beleive in.

So tell me what good there is in this war. What good comes from people killing other people?

The way I see it, is 9-11 was a well thought out plan to go and violate the oil trade or whatever. Tell me I'm wrong thats fine, I stand by my own beleifs... bye
 
some great words!

one thing is certain, the american presidnet found a great excuse, most of da americans believed, 2 get the oil of iraq!

stupid americans: u see only ur side of the conflict. hav u ever thought about why the muslims did that. do u think they r killing 4 fun?

do u know how many innocent civilians got killed by the americans???
 
I am thoroughly enjoying this, its actually intelligent a milestone for NS in my opinion. A few of my points then,

1 ScatchXXX... The American media is truly a corrupt and biased source of information and i would take it all with a grain of salt, which is seems you do. I don’t deny BBC has its own bias as does all mass media. It is however considerably more balanced; I just finished a paper critiquing the American media and its response to the hurricanes and with the research I did, it actually started to piss me off.

2. Now in response to the American actions in the Middle East, what do you foresee with Iran, a country that hates you more then Iraq did, one with a fundamentalist government, oh and nukes. A country that frankly scares the crap out of me with no qualms about using torture to force confessions and one with blood all over its hands.

3. How about 9 of your congress voting against a bill attempting to ban torture by Americans to gain information, a bill which your Vice President is vehemently trying to defeat. Even your President responded when questioned about the use of terrorism, replied that he felt that whatever was necessary to protect Americans is justified, although he did say that they don’t use torture. Dude likes to contradict himself a lot.

I apologise if this is full of grammar or spelling mistakes but its 2:30 in the morning and I don’t feel like editing.
 
You're truly an idiot. We saved hundreds of thousands of Somalis from a sure death under the thumb of Mohamed Aidid. How is it not good removing a genocidal maniac. He used to throw food down in front of the people. Then he would shoot any of the starving people that tried to eat it. He killed thousands of Somalis, and we overthrew him at a cost of American lives, but was it worth it? Yeah it was in my opinion.

You're so biased to the fact that the American government has never done anything good...do some research.
 
I totally agree American media is corrupt. I never said it wasn't. I'm saying both of them are corrupt, it's national media.
 
Lately the media (including, and likely beginning with, the bbc) has refered to australia as the 'America of the South'
 
Nice sweeping statement there. Actually I think you'd find that most British people would rather live in Australia than Britain.

Going back to the thread:

Sure, America has "helped out" loads of countries, and gotten rid of many oppresive "dictators", and for that they should be applauded. But what about where they have got it wrong? Was Salvador Allende (democratically elected socialist president in Chile in the early 1970s until being overthrown by a US government and CIA endorsed coup in 1973) a genocidal maniac? No, of course not, his wrong was being a socialist (ie not having the same political beliefs as the US government). What was Chile's punishment for voting for a socialist leader? Pinochet. Over the 17 years of his dictatorship thousands of people were tortured (and tortured in some truly vile ways) and killed. Many hundreds to this day are still missing. Based on evidence from 24,000 files that were finally declassified during the Clinton administration, it seems unlikely that this ever would have happened without US intervention in Chilean politics and economy (according to a handwritten memo by CIA director of the time, Richard Helms, after Allende had been elected, President Nixon's exact words were that he wanted to "make [the Chilean] economy scream"...how pleasant.

This is one example of where the US has got it so very wrong, there are of course many more, most less well documented. I think that part of the problem is that people haven't forgotten these incidents, and that is one of the reasons why these days we are incredibly weary of the US getting involved in other countries politics and economy.
 
^ dude I love how you are like ranting about past wars and shit, and you seem so into america and whats happening... its not that your all wise and shit you just trying to stand up for America. I'm not going to stand up for a murderer though.

I AM AN IDIOT, I HATE WAR. IM ALSO STUPID BECAUSE I THINK KILLING ANY PERSON IS BAD OH GOD. Dude scratch your the fuckin idiot. You dont understand you cant change other peoples views, especially mine. So keep sitting at your comp. freakin out and Ill keep hatin on this war
 
I do not type as good as some poeple and like to debate in person not by typing. I often forget to add detail and stuff in my typing. O yes, My friend has 2 brothers in iraq and they are home for 2 weeks . we have talked and I stood up for my views and they truely understood. they showed me pics of dead bodies. they were terrorists I was glad they were dead but the way they were portrayed was sick. one of his friends had his dick near the teroists dead face . another he was spiting on the toreists. They were people. they just didn't know how to express there hate.

I may not remember all the facts of my views because of my short term memory but you do have good facts. I really am better debateing in real life.
 
the iraqis asked to be liberated HAHAHA sure of course they called bush themselves and told them come on if they wanted to be "liberated" meaning being occupied by the us then they wouldnt be fighting against the united states?

i think anyone that supports the war should look at the pictures of all those dead in iraq. look at their ages. there are plenty of 17 year olds and 18 year olds dead for what? nothing. they missed out on life and whos to blame? well you might say noone but i sure as hell think its bush.

the reason you dont hear much about afghanistan is because the us is mostly in iraq. The united states promised to build schools and hospitals. i think the number was in the 100s... you know how many have been built? about 30. and this is since early 2002. great job america
 
are you calling everyone that opposed the vietnam war a little bitch? many didnt go.

i am not against anyone that is fighting overthere i am against the people that sent them there for a reason that did not exist.
 
yeah...if you ran to canada to escape the war thats a bitch move..if your not willing to defend our country than you SHOULDNT LIVE HERE!!!
 
id defend this country. but not in iraq. defend it from what exactly? i would have gone to afghanistan but def. not iraq. thats just bull shit.
 
It was sarcasm. I wasn't being serious.

Now I do not deny we fucked up in Chile and Argentina. If we look at the bad that every country has done in the past it will get us nowhere. Yes back in the 70's there was a widespread fear of socialism and communism. I agree my relatives were morons for believing that commi's were going to come bomb everyone in the US and hiding under your desk was going to save you. Nixon was an idiot. He was probably one of the worst president's we have seen "in my opinion". I could really go off in history about all the times Britian has fucked up too, but it wouldn't do any good. It really needs to change. People are taking a generation and assuming that we are still the same.

Today, we are controlled by fear. Fear of non existent things. I can only hope that the youth of today can change America for the better.
 
i sure as hell cant wait until i can vote and make some sort of change. i cant do anyhting now but i know that as soon as i turn 18 i am voting.
 
The thing that sucks is the only chance they get to relieve anger, is on them. They have so much hate for being there, who they are, why they're there, etc etc. It's sort of the same on the other side..only a little more graphic. What do you think happens to US soldiers body when recovered by Sunni extremeists? You think they just spit on it and walk off. It's one of those situations that you can't really blame them until you've been there in their shoes. Sure its easy to critique and say they were acting like inconsedirate pieces of shit, but on the verge of insanity what would you do? It's something to think about.

I know putting your thoughts into a typed passage is hard. It's hard for me to transfer what I want to say through the internet. I don't assume anyone is the same in life as on the internet (except lil g being the wanna be thug that he is). It's cool being able to hop online and share ideas with other people. It really helps increase everyone's knowledge. You guys say these threads are so stupid and useless when they really aren't. I've learned a lot of stuff on NS in political debates and I hope I learn more stuff.
 
That's good. I wish America had the same attitude. Maybe you should start planning out who you think is going to run and who you think you will vote for. I personally have already decided who I'm voting for if he runs this upcoming election.
 
Funny you should say im freaking out, and yet you're calling yourself and idiot and typing in all caps. Look buddy, I like America. I also dislike America. The only reason I'm posting so pro-America is because nobody else is. Everyone was posting against it so what good would it be to not offer some of the facts I think justifies some American good. I am not trying to change your beliefs. I couldn't care any less what you believe. I am telling you my belief. You should let your guard down a little bit and listen to others. You think everyone is trying to change your thoughts when we are just trying to share ours. You made a stupid statement and I corrected it. I don't see any problem with that. Just relax a little and try to look through other people's eyes, that's what I do.
 
I think YOU should look at pictures of what happened to entire families of people in Kuwait. I never said the people came out and asked for it. I said that they had problems with genocide and ethnic violence. Before downing everything that I say look where I'm coming from.
 
nah im just kidding right now im really looking at Rod Blagojevich hes a democrat but I think he will do a great job. I've heard his answer to a lot of questions and I really like his stand of most political views, or I might try John Edwards.
 
hopefully people will become more informed on politics and what is going on before they vote.
 
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