In response to: "September 11th, a forgotten legacy?"

bret

bret

Active member
This is my response to Stowebum's thread, in which some interesting points regarding September 11th and the subsequent war(s) were raised.

The other thread can be found here:

https://www.newschoolers.com/ns3/web/forums/readthread.php?thread_id=168565&

I wanted to offer an alternative opinion that addresses some of the problems I have with the ideas that permeate the other thread.

So many issues to address. Chronologically seems easiest:

9/11: The most terrible day I can remember. Much mourning and Godspeed to those who lost their lives, and those who were affected.

Right after 9/11: Bush's initial reaction was excellent. Osama bin Laden claimed responsibility for the attacks and was thus set up as the figurehead for the Bush administration's war or terror. Americans support the use of force to seek out terrorists and make America safer.

War in Afghanistan: Completely justified. Intelligence showed that Al Queda's terrorist cells were in Afghanistan. The oppressive theocratic (and most importantly, terrorist-supporting) Taliban is taken out of power. Terrorists disperse to Pakistan (not Iraq, as to be explained later).

War in Iraq: Now everything goes terribly wrong. Bush receives faulty information that leads him to believe that WMDs existed in Iraq. This is later proven beyond a shadow of a doubt to be untrue. People that say they were there, or could still be there: get over it. No evidence has demonstrated the possibility of weapons being there. Nevertheless, I am convinced that the President believed they were there. Coupled with the economic boon that the Iraqi oil reserves could provide for America's oil-driven economy if it were able to be sold here cheaply (remember that Cheney, Bush, and others have vested interests in the petroleum industry, and that advocating energy infrastructure crossover to a renewable plan is still political suicide), this was more than enough of an impetus to go to war with Iraq.

The administration also tried to present to the public the idea of Iraq being somehow connected to terrorism, in the hopes of using the popular support for the Afghanistan war and getting it to cross over to Iraq. However, any connection claimed by the administration is simply not true. People that know about the condition of Muslims in the area know that Saddam Hussein's regime in Iraq was part of the Sunni minority that greatly oppressed the Shi'ite majority. Turns out that the members of Al Queda were also part of the Shi'ite sect. I guarantee that, especially considering the terrorists' religious fanaticism, they had ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with Saddam's Sunni regime which so violently oppressed the members of their sect. Enough of the public bought it, however, so the administration was able to actually overstep the boundaries of the United Nations and launch a "preemptive war" (UNPRECEDENTED IN ALL OF AMERICAN HISTORY, AMERICA IS THE AGGRESSOR, why are people not freaking out about this?!!) against an enemy that has not been shown to possess WMDs and that has no connection to the terrorism on September 11th.

This war was wrong and unjust. The lives being spent in Iraq do not help guarantee your freedom, as they have nothing to do with the terrorism that was manifested on September 11th. Protesting the war, and thus helping to save the misspent lives of our soldiers in Iraq, is the best thing you can do.

Now think about the global repercussions. Greater rifts between the Middle East and America are forming. America has now established a precedent of unfounded aggression (some might even say Middle Eastern imperialism). Bush also characterized the war as a holy war and a crusade. Couple this with the fact that the United States is the champion of Israel, and you see a growing ideological conflict as well. To people who say the war isn't about oil, and say that the U.S. received 0% of its oil from Iraq, I say: "THINK!" Of course the U.S. received no oil from Iraq before the war. Saddam didn't like us, we didn't buy oil from him. But THINK about what happens in the post-war period. Iraq has technically a democratically elected government, except that every candidate on the ballot had to have first been approved by the United States. So the democratically elected government is really a puppet of the US, and more than willing I'm sure to sell us oil cheaply. Boom, there's your oil interest. Not to mention that now that Iraq is destroyed, it's the US corporations that are going to get rich from rebuilding it. Then domestically you have the Patriot Act. Americans are made to think that CITIZENS and others being held without charges for an unlimited amount of time makes us safer. WRONG. This screams GESTAPO and allows citizens to cast unfounded suspicions against each other, as well as giving our government the power to abrogate our personal freedoms. Are we really making ourselves safer, or for that matter, more free, if our government can hold us indefinitely without charging us? Sounds like the kind of "either with us or against us" ideology that permeates not only despotic governments, but also the very fanatical enemy we're supposed to be fighting!

This was really long to type, and I wish there was a better way to end it. Basically, think before you support what the government (or the news media) tells you. Research, look for connections, patterns of interest, and have your own opinion. September 11th was the most terrible day I can imagine, but just THINK, if it creates a new American imperialism and a country of mislead, warmongering citizens, then... well then it would just be that much worse, and the terrorists would have won, huh? Don't trade your humanity for simple-minded patriotism!

 
I think 911 came in very convinient for the Bush admin. I knew when I first saw the pictures of the WTC that day that the world was gonna go through major changes. Damn that monkey in the white house
 
i agree with most of it , and i think some faulty information landed us in iraq, but props to getting saddham hussein have you seen pictures of the mass graves he had his own contreymen buried in. He tortured many people of his country and I am glad he is out, all though i understand that is not why we originally went to war, and once are motives changed and we went to Iraq things got a little messy. But now that we are over there we can't just up and leave Iraq to be after we have put their government in shambles by capturing their dictator. After their government is able to start making a constitution and set things up in accordance with their culture and beliefs, then we should leave but until then we started this mess so we need to stay over there to try and help clean up their system.
 
i tottally agree with ride1080 but then again jenski is right, it is good we got him out and we cant just leave right now because iraq would be more fucked up then we already made it which is pretty bad.
 
i think u guys can all get fucked. fuck george bush and fuck america and its corrupt hypocritical ways. the whole world hates you and you dont even realise it. u r without doubt the most hated race in the world, and its because u r all naive, slef absorbed, arrogant wankers. i feel sorry the small proportion of americans who r decent people. your country had no right to impose itself on any other country. and although i would NEVER condone the deaths that occurred on september 11, i rekon the fact that your infrastructure got fucked over is great. its called karma. u get what u give, and u guys sure have dealt out a lot over the years. a fuckin lot. gotta expect to get it back. and i tell u what, for those who werent previous believers in akrma, check out all these hurricanes and storms that are fucking your fucked up country over. karma. mother natures way of getting back at the people making this world a far more fucked up place. all i can say is im thankful i live in a country where the majority of us are decent people, without our heads stuck up our own arses. the worst thing we ever did was join your gay alliance. only thing is none of our countrys people wanted to join it. wake up america
 
hurricanes? i think that's a little extreme for your point with the whole karma situation. natural disasters, are well....disasters. do you believe that southern asia was doing horrible things to deserve that tsunami or what about the earthquakes in pakistan? how about mass poverty in africa? is that because the country is "Screwing people over"?

i do agree with most of your point that a mass of americans are stupid and greedy but i disagree with the whole karma joint
 
yeah aussiejibbers post is retarded. ride1080 however said that america starting shit with iraq was unprecednded, e.g. that ameria had not before invaded a country on the basis of basically nothing. im not a history major, but you are wrong about this. check our for instance most of south america. vietnam? what started vietnam anyways? actually?

oh and incading iraw has not only NOT made you safer, if has made you a LOT LESS SAFE. its a funny thing, but a very signifigant porportion of iraqis want to go back to saddam, because life was in fact better then. plus even if you dont have many terrorists in a country, once you go in there, kill their government, fuck shit up in their cities, destroy what little infrastructure they have, and basically kill a whack of people, you get terrorists.

that said, anyone who thinks its ok to blow up a car bomb in a crowded market deserves what they get. But they probably wouldnt blow it up if some american soldiers hadnt gunned down the majority of their male relatives a few days earlier.

It's a tricky situation, but I think your current administration is doing an incredibly bad job of dealing with it.
 
ride1080 was saying the same thing basicly, both of your guys' posts are on not supporting the war
 
hey dipshit....17 terrorists arrested in YOUR country yesterday! When they do attack your "peaceful perfect" nation, dont come crying to the USA for help....your simplistic ignorant view of this crisis shows how short sighted you are!

Muslim extremisim is REAL and they hate ALL western countries (yes AUSSIES are part of western civilization)...when they attacked trhe night club in Bali, whose country lost the most lives? YOURS, and yet you smuggly deride our nation for having the balls to do something about it!

go shove off you fucking pussy, go drink some fosters and screw a kangaroo
 
But America is now going for oil, they arent in a war on terror, if they were why would they want to take the oil? SIMPLE

they set up 9-11 as an excuse to invade. Bush thinking it woudld be easy was dead wrong.

Remember when they would try and scare us saying "terrorist are planning another attack?" that was to scare us, make us think the terrorists were really going to invade our soil as we invaded theirs see?

We gave Al Quida billions and billions of dollars, we trained afghanis how to fight, supplied them with weapons etc.

The tape of Osama was good...
 
Now here's the truth about the system that'll fuck up your mind

They gave Al Queda 6 billion dollars in 1989 to 1992

And now the last chapters of Revelations are coming true

And I know a lot of people find it hard to swallow this

Because subliminal bigotry makes you hate my politics

But you act like America wouldn't destroy two buildings

In a country that was sponsoring bombs dropped on our children

I was watching the Towers, and though I wasn't the closest

I saw them crumble to the Earth like they was full of explosives

And they thought nobody noticed the news report that they did

About the bombs planted on the George Washington bridge

Four Non-Arabs arrested during the emergency

And then it disappeared from the news permanently
 
you have absolutely no right to stereotype americans ... Yes we are the most hated nation in the world but do you realize how much money in support we give out to other nations around the world ....? When the tsunami hit we were the first country to immediately sent millions of dollars, yet when katrina hit our country how many other countries helped us with out horrible deficit? and you call us hypocrits? you don't know even 1/1000000000 of our population so how dare you try and put us all into one category, and by the way our gov't is not a dictatorship therefore it is not all Bush who made the decisions... if your country would have been attacked as hugely as 911 you wouldn't necessarily back down either would you ... cuz you if you would thats pretty gay. Many americans realize that maybet his Iraq thing has gone on too long but it started with good intentions and we need to leave when Iraq is able to hold itself up. Countries can hate us as much as they want but many countries wouldn't be able to survive in their history or righ tnow if we hadn't helped out ... so maybe you need to get a grip and realize that everyone over here is a human being to hate one nation or society is so extrememely closeminded because in a whole its gonna come down one day to us working together for something, and until you have met over half of out country which is impossible do not put us all in one category, and look at your argument and look at your reasons for hating us ... how much bad have we really done? and how much have we been there in support for other countries?
 
Canada gives more and doesn't intervene in other countries business.

Reading some lyrics I came across:

"Attack on Democracy,

It's an invasion

we take a country,

It's Liberation"

Think about it...
 
i cando a grab,, bret way to go on the politicaly charged thread im proud, now go help mack study japanese furnature.. I can do a Grab!!
 
The Hurricanes are coming from Revelations. It's all tying together, and soon we will all probably be dead. Just wait until the earthquakes hit...
 
Ride 1080-

You're right on most parts, but you said there was no demonstrative evidence that there was WMD's in Iraq. What do you think the reason hundreds of trucks leaving Iraqi known military bases had in them when they knew America was coming? You think they were carrying chocolates, flowers, and teddy bears to their oh so friendly neighbors Isreal? There were indeed WMD'S which have already been proven there. We already discovered barrels of chemical and biological weapons/formulas. We knew they were only years away from a steady nuclear program. We knew if nothing was to be done Saddam may have provided terrorists with weapons that will destroy an entire city. Which by the way, I'm pretty sure 200 barrels of anthrax would have done quite a number if spread over a city with a crop duster. The UN took bribes for years, and were told to basically "fuck off". They took it as a rude statement and just kind of left. They knew what was there. You will soon see Iraq's weapons turn up again. While I do agree with you this war's been blown way out of proportion and it has lost a lot of it's intent. Anyway, it's great you actually understand what was happening pre-Iraq "war". Saddam was definately a war criminal. He committed 14 accounts of genocide for which he needed to be tried for. We got him, that's good. Where is it going to end? That is the true question.

Jenski- It isn't that easy to just put two groups in a country and make them get along. It is going to take a long time for them to make a "constitution" and set up an "equal" government. Even if we do make a government there, it will probably be over-thrown the second we leave.

Stowebum- Just to back you up a little...Look at the Japanese imprisonments during ww2. Their rights were stripped and they were thrown into a holding camp. Also, with Senator McCarthy and his commi hunt. He got hundreds of people imprisoned or put on a black list just because he thought they were of the communist party.

aussiejibber- Coming from someone who lives in a country that was made up of prison mates, you definately didn't take advantage of a decent education. So tracing your roots, Britian enslaving most of India and Polynesian areas was any better than us invading Iraq while at least having some reasons? Damn you sure like to think things out before you present them. Here's and idea...Go back to 3rd grade. Start over on sentence structure, and then try to propose an argument that actually has some facts based on it.

B-cat- Who's life really better for in Iraq? Is it better for the people that were committing the genocide, or the ones that were being slaughtered? You should probably realize that it's similar to a prsion. Obviously yhe captives that are freed are going to be happy, while the guardsmen won't be.

Oh and you are definately right we "invaded Vietnam". Basically it came down to this. Vietnam was looking for a peaceful alternate to war, but because they were commis they had to die.

I would love for you to explain how we are "gunning down" their relatives. I hope you don't mean innocent people that just run at you with a gun. It's quite funny how easy it is to say something when you're watching it on TV then if you're really there.

Timmyg- Stop taking immortal techniques lyrics as everything you believe. Kids like you hear this song, and they think he knows everything. He doesn't, I don't, No one does. We did give the TALIBAN money. Do you know why? Iran and Russia were allies. These are countries we have hated for quite a while. Back in the 80's we saw an opportunity for Afghanistan to maybe kick Russia back and over-throw Iran. So we suppourted them. We did pretty much the same thing with Iraq, supplying them to go to war with Iran so we didn't look like the bad guys.

Freestyler540- You might want to research your fact. We give out so much more money in food,supplies, health aid, and I'm not positive but I think we may actually even give out more money (could be wrong).
 
i have done some research ... i have also posted the links that support my information if you would like to further check it out, and at the end are some interesting facts to know ...

USA:

THE SIGUR CENTER ASIA PAPERS

THE 2004 INDIAN OCEAN TSUNAMI:

SIX MONTH REPORT

JUNE 2000 U.S. Assistance: Generous Promises Moving Ahead

The U.S. government will spend about $857 million on tsunami-related aid. In addition to reimbursing the $225.6 million in expenses incurred by the Defense Department during the provision of relief goods and services, a supplemental appropriations bill signed by President Bush on May 11, 2005, earmarks $631 million for tsunami aid in a “Recovery and Reconstruction Fund.” As of June 8, $143 million had been committed to specific projects.18 On May 8, U.S. Deputy Secretary of State Robert Zoellick signed a memorandum of understanding with the Indonesian government for a $245 million road project in Aceh. U.S. NGOs have raised at least $1.48 billion in private funds and in-kind gifts, $254.2 million of which was spent in the three months immediately following the disaster.19

The U.S. military and 14 other foreign militaries were key contributors to relief efforts. At the height of operations, over 15,000 U.S. service members, 25 ships and 94 aircraft were involved in providing assistance.20 The U.S. military ceased tsunami relief operations on February 14, having treated 2,238 patients and delivered over 24 million pounds of supplies.21 A small number of ships and personnel remain in the area to assist as needed. A U.S. Navy hospital ship provided humanitarian assistance off the coast of Nias for 25 days following the March 28 earthquake.

Source: USAID, InterAction, and “Emergency Supplemental Appropriations Act for Defense, the Global War on Terror, and Tsunami Relief, 2005”. Note: The $245 million cost of the Aceh road project is not included in the committed figure as it has been offered but not officially committed. The supplemental bill also includes $25 million for the USGS and NOAA for research and construction of a tsunami warning system for the United States, and another $25 million in the USG Recovery and Reconstruction Fund earmarked for a program to prevent the spread of the avian influenza virus. Since these two items are not tsunami aid for the Indian Ocean countries they are not included in the above graph. Total approved funds for tsunami-affected countries are $857 million, or $93 million less than President Bush’s $950 million request (debt relief for affected countries was excluded).

-http://www.gwu.edu/~elliott/news/tsunamiinderfurth.pdf

CANADA:

Canada

Federal CAD 425M (USD 344.96M)[24] [25] Provincial CAD 18.5M (USD 15.02M) [26]

0.70 Public CAD 230 (USD 185.8M) [27], BusinessCAD 36.3M (USD 29.47M) 0.28 (743.68)this is the estimated amount of money given in millions.

other interesting facts:

1. In 2004, the United States Federal government gave $18.9 billion in humanitarian financial aid.

2. In 2004, Japan the second largest governmental donator, gave only $8.8 billion(USD); less than half the amount given by the United States

3. According to the American Association of Fundraising Counsel's Trust for Philanthropy in Indianapolis, private American citizens gave an estimated $240.92 billion in gifts equalling 2.3 percent of US gross domestic product, to charities of all types.

4. The United States has spent trillions on the defense of Western Europe, Canada, Japan, Korea, Taiwan, Australia, and the Middle East, without ever asking for anything in payment other than friendship.

http://blogcritics.org/archives/2005/09/01/052417.php

i have posted the links that support my argument
 
^^^^^ read my post before that .... that proves that we have in fact donated more than canada, in response to freestyler540
 
Thanks jenski, I knew we gave more in a lot of aspects. Now I actually have some proof so my previous statement sounds legit.
 
Sure America has helped out a lot of nations but I can't help feeling that it's insistence on "helping other nations"/"interference" (depends on your view) doesn't occasionally cause more trouble than it solves.

Like Chile in the early 1970s. The American government was hugely responisble for the coup in 1973 that overthrew democratically elected socialist leader Salvador Allende and replaced him with a military Junta, out of which emerged the dictator Augusto Pinochet who tortured and killed thousands of innocent people.

Similarly American interfered in Afghanistan in the late 70s. The US armed forces trained Mujahideen to fight against the soviets. These american and pakistani trained Mujahideen groups ultimately formed the Taliban, the very group that the US has been fighting against more recently in Afghanistan.

These are just two examples of what can go wrong when America "helps out a nation". There are many more...
 
i've read both postings now, and they both make really valid points, but overall i find myself agreeing with you. i share basically the same opinion and hopefully the last segment of your posting won't happen (unless it already has).
 
I have done some research too.

Also Canada gives about 3% of GDP in 2005

The US gives 1.9% of GDP.

http://www.cgdev.org/section/initiatives/_active/cdi/_components/aid/

Donation by percentage of GDP is usually more important than fixed prices.

I have also check your sources.All you said is true, but I believe that your source "http://blogcritics.org/archives/2005/09/01/052417.php" is a bit biased. Those are critics and not hard facts. They are opinions. If you read the comment section, you will see that not every facts Bill give is not correct. John Bill also does not have good credentuals (specialty in reseach).

I don't really care about how much gives who, the important fact is that we help each other.
 
Yes that is of GDP, but we still give more in supplies to even it out that our cost is over what Canada's cost is. You don't realize how much food, medicine, vaccines, clothing, and other stuff is given to other countries from the US.
 
As soon as we entered the war,

I was strongly against bush, not that I was for John Kerry either. When I started to listen to Technique, it really fueld the emotions I had against this war, and america itself.

Much of the reggae I listen to is also agaonst all political stand points, that is a key factor in Rasta.

heres some Marley lyrics

"Don't involve Rasta in your say, say"

or

"Rasta no work for no, CIA"

I used to want to join a branch of the service, I felt I had no other choice because of my grades I received in school. I soon realized that was not a good enough reason for me to want to fight for them.
 
since when was poverty a natural disaster. and the tsunamis can be looked at as natures way of keeping the population down in an extremely overcrowded country. not that i overly believe that tho
 
My god you're an idiot aussieskier...He said that poverty sarcastically is a result of karma. He didn't say it was a natural disaster...moron.
 
But I'm not down for supporting anyone who wants to spill blood for oil. They arent trying to free iraq, they even dont want us to free them. We are trying to take their oil. There are laws against that shit. I'm not supporting any country.

I'm on this earth for one reason: To live. Everything around is known as Babylon, and I am trapped in it and it will never go away. I'm going to stand by what I beleive in. I beleive everyone should be left in peace. But there will only be un peaceful people like bush and the rest of those right wing fucks.
 
Naw I like to piss people off. so heres my stand point...

I am an american I was shocked by what went down during sept 11. I was all for war. But after hearing Anti-Flags mobalize cd. I reliezed there might be something wrong with the goverment. So I turned off fox and watched the bbc. They had the worlds viewpoint on the war. Then I got Rock aginst bush cds and watched the dvd footage of all the children and innicent people being slaughtered by unguied missles. It sickened me knowing that the american media does not tell us this. So I spent many sleepless nights thinking why would we do this to people who did nothing wrong but to live in the same country as the bad guys. I then started protesting. But my friends thought it was stupid and I got chased by some bikers. I think bush is a liar, thief and a crimainal with protection of the law. He did not have a fair competer in the 04 election. bush might have pulled us out of economic slump but he put us right back in. We might prosper from the war like all the politians. or go in to depression.

I personally think we are in recession right now.

But back to bush. He is slowly turning this counrty in to a conseritive nation. Thats how all these stupid politions get into office. He also has relegion on his side thats probebly how he won the election. you are suppose to have church and state seperated but he used god to win. How sick is that. I think it is very sick knowing how diverse this country is. I don't like how bush has run this country. Butt it is not all his fault. Its the fucking media. they don't tell us whats going on in the goverment or the world. they just tell us whats going on around us. like fairs and parades. fuck. open our eyes people are dieing all around us. and we don't hear anything about it. I really don't like how they potray hings. this is the most i have ever written. so hope you enjoy. I know what I am talking abouat
 
I could go on forever but i would rather talk abouat it instead of type. so Its gonna bug me for along time for not telling my full views
 
So you personaly went to Iraq and asked all of them if they wanted to be liberated. Well as I have said numerous times. It depends what ethnic group you're in. If your people are getting slaughtered and shunned out of elections then I think you may want a reform in government. I'm not sure about you, but if I can't get a say in the government and im getting slaughterd, I'm pretty sure I would want someone to help. You are just as close-minded as the group you generalized as "fucks". You're so closed on your ideas that we are doing this out of our own personal interest that you don't even make an attempt to look at it another way. Everyone is on the earth to live, but it's human nature to want to live better than your neighbor. They weren't being left in peace in Iraq, just like in Africa right now. Every day war clans prowl the streets killing anyone they consider not in their "group". You think they are being left in peace. I think they have just as much reason to need our help. Try walking in someone else's shoes, it may help you out.
 
There is no reason we should have war. I am against war, and everything else associated with it. I stay away from politics because I could give a fuck about what other person wants to try and run a few million people. See its close minded people like george bush that bring us down. I never personally asked any iraqis anything.... why would you go liberate people with m16's? if your going in for peace, you shouldnt need a weapon. They wanted the OIL.

I could give a fuck what you say try to put me and my beliefs down, you cant. I know what is right from wrong. I know that killing people is wrong.
 
Sigh, I'm really sick of ripping people apart, but i guess one more won't hurt.

Once again you like so many other people hear a band play songs. You base your opinion on exactly what they think because it's "cool" music or something. Anti-Flag will pretty much just take whatever they can and try and twist it to sound bad against the government. Rock against Bush is probably the most retarded thing I have ever heard of. Let's all get a bunch of bands and complain how we don't like Bush, yet we were so enthusiastic to write songs about Sept 11. People change their opinions every other day. Children being slaughtered? Jesus christ you chose the wrong set of words for that. I hate it when people like you assume that someone in civilian clothing is innocent. You've never been in urban warfare. Everyone is dressed like a civilian, and most are armed. The US is probably one of the best countries with avoiding civilian casualties in conflicts (save vietnam and previous wars). Vietnam was just a sick act of aggression in which we dropped bombs on anything that moved. The American government and media tells us this. They announce when they have hit a wrong target (pretty rare). You are being fooled. What they don't show you is where they really hide. The targets we are going after make their bases in hospitals and schools. Then they take the people THEY slaughtered and throw them in the building. (this is not for every circumstance, just a few.) What exactly are you protesting, I think you should figure it out for yourself. As I have said so many times, look at it from a different prospective. The BBC is just as biased as any other media. Bush does not control the economy. He has very little effect on it. Who do you consider "stupid politicians"? The ones that attend law schools at Harvard and Yale. Maybe you're the stupid and uneducated one. If you don't like how Bush is running the country you have two choices. Leave or do something about it. You can advertise who you want for president for next election, send them letters, join their committees, just do something! So the media doesn't display bad things about Bush? Wrong! They always have negative things twords Bush because they can. I hear on the news EVERY morning. Today the death toll has risen, or civilians were killed. Stop generalizing. You do it way too much. You really don't know what you're talking about. I don't have 100% solid fact either, but I am making a hell of a lot more sense than you. I am also looking at the spectrum from multiple ways. Try it, or remain ignorant...your call.
 
At the same time you have to look at the overall population of the countries. Canadians donate more per capita and more out of the overall GDP than americans do. California alone has more people residing there than all the citizens of Canada.

What americans seem to forget is that this was not solely an AMERICAN target either, it was an attack on the WORLD Trade Towers. At the same time, how many people died in the Tsunami? Or the earthquake in Pakistan, or in on-going genocides in Sudan, and Rwanda? Oh but wait american lives are worth more than anyone elses... it's the whole self centered ego-tistical approach to life that makes the rest of the world sick.

At the same time, I've met some pretty awesome Americans skiing in Chile, or while on 3rd world medical expeditions in guatemala. The problem is that most people are too arrogant or ignorant to form opinions of their own, they just follow whatever the media and their "glorious leader" say.
 
You know there are times you can't avoid war. You're even more close minded than George Bush. You're being such a hypocrite it isn't even funny. You say why do we need guns to liberate people? Think about it dumbass. People aren't just going to let people they oppress against all of a sudden have equal rights. They have hatred, it's human nature to always hold another group lower than you. You are so naive to this situation that you should stay out of arguments like this. Killing will never stop no matter how much you want it to. People will always oppress and people will always kill. Get out from under your rock and realize there is some good in here.
 
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