I'm working on a new tool for the backcountry, let me know what you think

canadianskier

canadianskier

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So I posted this in the backcountry section already, but I think it will be helpful for me to get more eyes on it here.

For the last while I've been developing a portable rope tow system intended for backcountry skiing and splitboarding. My plan is to continue prototyping and launch a kickstarter campaign sometime next season. I'm hoping to get more feedback on the idea now in order to make sure I'm building something people will actually want.

If you have a sec, I'd appreciate it if you could fill out a super short survey for me here. Thanks in advance to anyone who takes the time!

You can also learn more about it at www.zoaeng.com

Let me know what you think and if you have any questions.
 
Thats actually genius, could be sick for backyard stuff in the winter and backcountry seems perfect for it
 
Looking forward to a prototype but given the need for light travel in the BC and usage in steep descents, not sure how useful this will be for touring
 
14136480:BigPurpleSkiSuit said:
Seems more applicable to take to a jump sesh than a real tour
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Yeah this would be super sweet if you were to be sessioning something instead of doing snowmobile laps or bootpacking
 
Editing my original post cause I didn’t bother checking the website and got called out. Design is totally different from other rope tow ideas I’ve seen and actually pretty smart looking.

My apologies.

**This post was edited on May 2nd 2020 at 3:39:01am

**This post was edited on May 2nd 2020 at 3:40:13am
 
Not to discourage you, but I’m wondering how portable a rope tow could really be. Say you wanted to lap something that’s 100 feet, you need 200 feet of cable and just that alone is a lot to carry into the backcountry. Are you gonna power it with a battery or are you bringing a generator? Seems dope for backyard setups but I don’t know about actual backcountry? Again, I don’t want to discourage you but maybe you can tell us a little more about how you plan on implementing it?
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I feel like you didn't even look at the website before commenting... it pretty clearly shows that the system itself only needs the 100 feet of rope to get to your spot with the battery/ handle functioning as the rope tow system to pull itself and in turn the skier up the mountain. Looks like a sick idea that definitely fills the niche of snowmobile laps. I think it would work great at a place like Berthoud or really anywhere you can build a little park.
 
14136465:Dogfart said:
Looking forward to a prototype but given the need for light travel in the BC and usage in steep descents, not sure how useful this will be for touring
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Not something I would take on huge touring days where I am only doing a line or two but that doesn't really seem to be the point. For days just messing around on one cliff face or building a little park it seems much better than boot-packing every time. Also weight in your backpack is not really as big a deal as weight on your legs (skis/bindings).
 
It could be good for jump builds in the bc. Not sure if I would ever take it touring tho, seems like a lot of rope just to save yourself skinning 100ft.
 
Do you have more info about the battery or is it all still theory? What is the charge time? How will it charge? Would it be possible to swap batteries? Swapping batteries would make sense if people wish to hot lap with this tool as 800 m can go by extremely fast, especially if that is an at best rating not at sub zero temperatures.

Is it waterproof or shockproof?

What if the cord gets wet or dirty (important for spring)? How will it affect the pulley system?

Can the cord be tied at both ends

For your step by step guide wouldn't it make more sense to lay the cord down on your assent so you don't waste your first run? I know it's kind of a stupid question but it might help more people get behind it.

Cool product idea with a lot of potential though. Depending on how it turns out I would definitely purchase

**This post was edited on May 2nd 2020 at 8:52:43am
 
Just did the survey, really cool concept and great website. As cool as this would be in the BC, I could see this as being super popular for backyard setups, spring rail/jump sessions
 
This. is. RAD! Let me know when it goes into production, I bet we'd love to sell a couple at Slope Style. I could definitely see this being popular for rail yard sessions or similar stuff. Heck, I'd love it even for hitting some mellow pow fields in the backcountry.
 
14136545:Poikenz said:
Do you have more info about the battery or is it all still theory? What is the charge time? How will it charge? Would it be possible to swap batteries? Swapping batteries would make sense if people wish to hot lap with this tool as 800 m can go by extremely fast, especially if that is an at best rating not at sub zero temperatures.

Is it waterproof or shockproof?

What if the cord gets wet or dirty (important for spring)? How will it affect the pulley system?

Can the cord be tied at both ends

For your step by step guide wouldn't it make more sense to lay the cord down on your assent so you don't waste your first run? I know it's kind of a stupid question but it might help more people get behind it.

Cool product idea with a lot of potential though. Depending on how it turns out I would definitely purchase

**This post was edited on May 2nd 2020 at 8:52:43am
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Thanks for the feedback!

The range is based on the capacity of the 44.4V battery setup I am currently using in my prototype. On the current prototype it is still a bit of a pain to change the battery, and there is a bit of a process to charge it as well. I would like to make swapping batteries and charging them easier for production models. For the production models, they would come with a power supply you could plug into the wall to charge the battery in an hour or two.

It will be water resistant. Should be fine to fall in the snow and get wet, but if it's submerged in water you could likely have issues. It will have some shock resistance as well. The outer frame is urethane.

As long as there isn't substantial debris that could jam anything up and the cord isn't damaged, you should be OK pulling it. It will grip a wet rope fine.

You could potentially lay out the rope as you go up, but during testing I've found it to be easier to lay it out as you go down. There's a couple reasons for this: focusing on laying out the rope as you skin up is a pain; I don't recommend fixing the rope at the bottom, because then it is a potential hazard, so you have to be more active in laying out the rope; If you don't use the full length, it is easier to tie it off at the top.
 
Why not tie it off at both top and bottom?

14136568:canadianskier said:
Thanks for the feedback!

The range is based on the capacity of the 44.4V battery setup I am currently using in my prototype. On the current prototype it is still a bit of a pain to change the battery, and there is a bit of a process to charge it as well. I would like to make swapping batteries and charging them easier for production models. For the production models, they would come with a power supply you could plug into the wall to charge the battery in an hour or two.

It will be water resistant. Should be fine to fall in the snow and get wet, but if it's submerged in water you could likely have issues. It will have some shock resistance as well. The outer frame is urethane.

As long as there isn't substantial debris that could jam anything up and the cord isn't damaged, you should be OK pulling it. It will grip a wet rope fine.

You could potentially lay out the rope as you go up, but during testing I've found it to be easier to lay it out as you go down. There's a couple reasons for this: focusing on laying out the rope as you skin up is a pain; I don't recommend fixing the rope at the bottom, because then it is a potential hazard, so you have to be more active in laying out the rope; If you don't use the full length, it is easier to tie it off at the top.
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14136569:BigPurpleSkiSuit said:
Why not tie it off at both top and bottom?
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Primarily I'm worried it could be a hazard for other people if it's fixed on both ends. You don't want to be responsible for a skier or snowmobiler getting clotheslined.

A minor point is that it could limit the line you take on the ascent. Right now if you're on a slope that's too steep for it to pull you up in a straight line, you can cut across to reduce the load.

All that said, the device should still function the same with the bottom fixed.
 
What is the grade on the max vertical per charge?

**This post was edited on May 2nd 2020 at 1:33:40pm
 
This is a sick idea. Something I was thinking is that with how long people like their backcountry runs to be, how the small motor has to pull you up a slope through fresh snow, and how heavy rope is, I think this is much more applicable to a jump session or lapping a rail like said above. I think you're onto something with this idea but personally dont see it catching on in the backcountry.

Also for the jump session/rail lapping idea, it would have to be a type of rope-tow system where you don't have to bring the motor back down each run.
 
When I think of portable rope tow. I think of 2 shop vac like items to help up on sleds. I've seen people on NSers try to make their own rope tow with a lawnmower engine

14136610:bueno said:
This is a sick idea. Something I was thinking is that with how long people like their backcountry runs to be, how the small motor has to pull you up a slope through fresh snow, and how heavy rope is, I think this is much more applicable to a jump session or lapping a rail like said above. I think you're onto something with this idea but personally dont see it catching on in the backcountry.

Also for the jump session/rail lapping idea, it would have to be a type of rope-tow system where you don't have to bring the motor back down each run.
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I feel like this is the most important question that nobody has asked. How do you bring the device back down to the bottom of the rope? Are you supposed to take it off the rope and put it in your backpack till you get to the bottom? It’s the only logical answer I can think of
 
14136465:Dogfart said:
Looking forward to a prototype but given the need for light travel in the BC and usage in steep descents, not sure how useful this will be for touring
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Bring a second rope and zipline this back down, dawg.
 
14136615:Kevin_Bang said:
I feel like this is the most important question that nobody has asked. How do you bring the device back down to the bottom of the rope? Are you supposed to take it off the rope and put it in your backpack till you get to the bottom? It’s the only logical answer I can think of
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I believe that is the idea, doesn't matter too much if you are using it for backcountry. You could always just use a double length rope, tie the end to the device so when you get to the bottom of the loop you just pull down the end that's tied to the device.
 
If the rope was fixed on both ends and tense, could you let the motor slide down on its own?

Then you could get some serious party laps, otherwise you'd have to take turns.

Cool idea! If this works, maybe consider a portable system that can be affixed designed for multiple people.
 
[tag=59057]@canadianskier[/tag] as you mentioned a removable battery would be a really sick idea, this means if people wanna buy an extra battery for an extra 800m vertical they could, it also means if you’re that fussy about weight and you’re going up with mates then you can distribute the load (one person carry battery) as it’s usually the battery that is quite heavy
 
14136631:elm. said:
If the rope was fixed on both ends and tense, could you let the motor slide down on its own?

Then you could get some serious party laps, otherwise you'd have to take turns.

Cool idea! If this works, maybe consider a portable system that can be affixed designed for multiple people.
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^^ my main concern/thought

This would sell me on it if I had a backyard setup or wanted to lap one feature/section of a park. I wouldn't want to carry it down if I was lapping a rail. Having it reel back down would be huge, and is gonna allow multiple people use it as elm said.
 
Really cool idea, and I really appreciate it as a chartered engineer. Innovation like this really gets me going (uphill)

Some quick thoughts:

1) electric motors capable of high torque are very bulky and expensive - I presume your drive train is geared?

2) what speed can it generate?

3) how does the unit get back down the mountain?

4) the loose end of the rope will have a propensity to be dragged up the mountain - maybe include a snow anchor at the bottom?

5) battery performance in cold ambient temperature

6) rope should be attached on the centreline to prevent yaw

7) hide away moving components so people don’t injure themselves (nightmare in the back country)

8) rope selection and minimum bend radius is important - does this work on any paracord or is a bespoke cord included with the unit?

9) GOOD LUCK WITH THE DEVELOPMENT THIS IS SICK
 
topic:canadianskier said:
View attachment 963618

So I posted this in the backcountry section already, but I think it will be helpful for me to get more eyes on it here.

For the last while I've been developing a portable rope tow system intended for backcountry skiing and splitboarding. My plan is to continue prototyping and launch a kickstarter campaign sometime next season. I'm hoping to get more feedback on the idea now in order to make sure I'm building something people will actually want.

If you have a sec, I'd appreciate it if you could fill out a super short survey for me here. Thanks in advance to anyone who takes the time!

You can also learn more about it at www.zoaeng.com

Let me know what you think and if you have any questions.
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Dude I can put this in my local park and I won’t have to wait for chairlifts anymore
 
14136806:teamdummy said:
So I get to lug an extra 10 pound box around with me all day? Yay.
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Piss off, since when is it cool to not support other skiers when they have cool, real, ideas with a lot of potential? Skiers are a community bro, don’t be that asshole
 
14136813:animator said:
Piss off, since when is it cool to not support other skiers when they have cool, real, ideas with a lot of potential? Skiers are a community bro, don’t be that asshole
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So this little box is gonna tow 150 pound skiers, up hill, through who knows what kind of snow- pow, corn, slush, at backcountry kind of slope angles? The torque needed for that kind of force is going to come from a hand held “box”? There’s some pretty large physics problems to overcome for this to work. Have you seen the size of the winches that companies like Level 1 use to tow dudes into urban features? Gas powered motors to generate enough force. And that’s usually across flat ground into a feature. Seems kinda like vapor ware to me.
 
14136825:teamdummy said:
So this little box is gonna tow 150 pound skiers, up hill, through who knows what kind of snow- pow, corn, slush, at backcountry kind of slope angles? The torque needed for that kind of force is going to come from a hand held “box”? There’s some pretty large physics problems to overcome for this to work. Have you seen the size of the winches that companies like Level 1 use to tow dudes into urban features? Gas powered motors to generate enough force. And that’s usually across flat ground into a feature. Seems kinda like vapor ware to me.
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Electric motors can produce way more torque than gasoline engines, the problem is really with fuel storage (gasoline vs battery power) Have you ever seen an electric car or motorcycle accelerate compared with a gasoline engine? Locomotives have been powered by electricity for decades, they just burn diesel to generate electricity.
 
14136826:Caveman. said:
Electric motors can produce way more torque than gasoline engines, the problem is really with fuel storage (gasoline vs battery power) Have you ever seen an electric car or motorcycle accelerate compared with a gasoline engine? Locomotives have been powered by electricity for decades, they just burn diesel to generate electricity.
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This, I could also see some issues arise with batteries and the cold temperature
 
The rope would need to be really long to make it worth it. 200 or 300ft in distance is nothing.

Also, the concern that other skiers cross the line when it is tensioned (ie somebody going uphill) definitely needs to be considered. People have gotten sliced in half by groomer winch cables.
 
interesting concept! could be good for people with some disabilities too who still want to recreate outside the ski resort. Though, I think the best application is what others have said - for lapping a jump or rail yard.

I spend about 75% of my season in the backcountry now - many (i'd reckon most) backcountry enthusiasts enjoy the uphill as much as the downhill. Just something to keep in mind when looking for your target consumer group.
 
14136465:TRVP_ANGEL said:
Looking forward to a prototype but given the need for light travel in the BC and usage in steep descents, not sure how useful this will be for touring
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It could be just the thing for a booter sesh or mini golf style section. Most people who ski in the backcountry probably aren't skiing the steepest terrain anyway.
 
My buddy actually showed me a video of someone using this exact concept!

This guy in Montana who owns a bunch of land, or at least has access to it, has set up ropes going up these tree runs. He then modified a chainsaw, took off the blade and chain, to accept the rope and uses in to pull him up. He then proceeds to take the chainsaw body and ski down with it, to then do it all over again.

I can't find the video, it was pretty obscure, but the idea is there!
 
The only people who will buy this are those with backyard rail setups.

Sorry but this idea is terrible.
 
14137051:chris.goodhue said:
My buddy actually showed me a video of someone using this exact concept!

This guy in Montana who owns a bunch of land, or at least has access to it, has set up ropes going up these tree runs. He then modified a chainsaw, took off the blade and chain, to accept the rope and uses in to pull him up. He then proceeds to take the chainsaw body and ski down with it, to then do it all over again.

I can't find the video, it was pretty obscure, but the idea is there!
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Ahhh Yes crazy mountain bob,. The gas powered and static lines of his concept makes sense because more party laps. He told me he was going to show me the system one day, but I have yet to take the trek out to his compound. I always see him in the beartooths.


**This post was edited on May 4th 2020 at 11:41:52am
 
14136834:deathcookie said:
The rope would need to be really long to make it worth it. 200 or 300ft in distance is nothing.

Also, the concern that other skiers cross the line when it is tensioned (ie somebody going uphill) definitely needs to be considered. People have gotten sliced in half by groomer winch cables.
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The rope we're using is very lightweight, so 1000ft of rope weighs about 4.4 lbs and packs pretty compact. You will probably have a hard time finding single lengths greater than that, but you can also set up two lines or more if you want a longer continuous run.

The rope only needs to be fixed at the top. While in use the maximum tension on the line will never exceed the load required to pull up the skier. If you run into the line while skiing perpendicular to it, you have a massive mechanical advantage over that load, so you are more likely to knock the device out of the rider's arms or jolt them uphill then anything else.

There is potential danger for other people if they are setting this up in sketchier terrain, where getting tangled up in a rope is dangerous on its own, or if the rope is winding through very tight trees. Users will have to use the tool responsibly, but that is true of most backcountry equipment.
 
Some dude -> [tag=271815]@Liam_Gets_Stoked[/tag] hit me up a few month ago talking about a similar idea. I totally disregarded him (sorry Liam, hard to tell fact from fiction with this type of thing) Any chance y'all are working together? Seems like it could be a cool way to lap a pillow zone or a jump.
 
Wait dude 1 18650 cell is 3.5Ah * 3.6V, which is around 12.600Wh *3600 = 45360J, E=mgh, h = E/mg one dude weighs around 80kg so h=45360J / 9.81 * 80 = 57m assuming 100% efficiency. Gotta subtract friction from skis, inefficiencies in motor, (huge: cold as fuck so derate the battery at LEAST 50%), and other shit you device looks pretty small, what's the target weight I'm drunk and fuck so check my math boyo
 
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