If we dont hit iran...

Iran doesn't want to fuck with the USA. People have tried to directly fuck with the USA in the past (WWII) and they have not come out victorious. what makes you guys think Iran wants to have anything to do with us? Yes they want to become a world power through their flourishing oil industry, but that is it. Iran is in no way dangerous to us at this point in time and we should not try to mess with any of their business just because we're the USA world police. an attack on Iran would be completely pointless and would give the next president (whom I hope will be Barack Obama) an even bigger hole to dig us out of regardless of our internal issues in our country today.
 
so much disrespect in this thread. it pains me to see it. we are all brothers and sisters. some of you identify iran as the enemy. some of you identify bush as the bad guy. everyone is entitled to their own opinion. but ther is no need for disrespect. dont call eachother "disgraceful americans", dont exclaim that it is shameful to live in the U.S or that "how can you be proud to be an american" you know who you are. none of us are enemies with eachother until you decide that you want to be. im not saying that everyone should think the same thing. im just saying that its a bigger probelom that ordanary people like us, people who grow up in the same country, or continent or whatever, bicker and fight like this. if indeed we do go to war. think about how we're going to fight the enemy if we are fighting with eachotehr. (im not pro-or anti-war. ther is not enough information). again, everyone is entitled to ther own opinion. but be respectful, if the person you are argueing insults you, or puts you down. dont let them get the better of you. because this is what happens. shame on you guys
 
I believe bush etc beleived the Iraq war would be a pushover despite the advice of gen Shinseki and others that it would be a hardcore insurgency.

I believe if it went according to plan, yes, we may have struck Iran's nuclear facilities. However, seeing the current situation, I believe they've had no choice but to call off this plan. Most of the people who stood to benefit from control of Iran are no longer in the machine (think Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz, etc).

So I'd say it's a no go. Just my $.02

(btw, I didn't read the thread as its just a troll-fest anyway)
 
We wouldn't have to worry about our troops being tired and our track record sucking if our neighbor Canada helped a nigga out, shiiit
 
Let me explain to you everything you need to know. If you take the time to read this (which you won't), your questions WILL be answered. This is a 10 minute breakdown of the entire situation.

But I will add that I can't understand people who call for an immediate pull-out. We went into Iraq on false pretenses and that was wrong, and the country has been trashed by insurgency because we simply don't have the manpower to post a guard at every telephone and power pole, and every water main. That said, this is why people like Shinseki gave the figure of 'Several hundred thousand' troops to secure Iraq after the initial invasion. Its also worthy to mention that Rumsfeld dismissed these figures as 'grossly over-estimated'. Now we are realizing our generals were correct, and these little troop surges are the best we can do without a draft. So, thank Rumsfeld and Bush for poor, poor execution.

The situation is this: we have allowed a great, amazing, educated nation with tremendous potential, that was just starting to come into its own, to fall into ruin because we had problems with saddam as a person. Don't tell me its because he used chem weapons on 5000 Kurds, because there are FAR worse dictators killing FAR more people now that we simply ignore (hint: because the people who are dying are black and don't have oil). This is personal and this is for-profit. But still, we trashed it, and now we hold the reigns to the Sunni and Shi'a. If we just leave, a million of each will be killed in one week. Not to mention disease is rampant, hospitals non-existant, no drinking water in a city of millions, etc.

Iran will UNQUESTIONABLY move in and fill the power vacuum, and if you think Iraq honestly had 'WMDs', wait till you see Iran. Iran will quell, if not completely execute the remaining Sunni leadership and population in Iraq and form a puppet government with the friendly Shi'a majority. This government will then ACTUALLY be a 'terror threat' to the United States, and will effectively beat back any progress we may have made in Iraq or Afghanistan. What's more, they will have free range now to conduct attacks against Israel with Iraq as an additional vantage point, which is probably their long term goal. We will come to see the advent of the Iranian nuke, boosted with the funding from developing and selling Iraq's oil. After the deaths and/or diaspora of Sunni, an arms race will occurr between Israel and Iran, which will increase the boil-over potential of the nuclear crisis exponentially.

Saddam Hussein was a douche, but he did 2 things:

1) Kept an uneducated populace in line. You can't have democracy without an educated people. Iraq was BECOMING educated, but had a long way to go. Now we also ousted the only experienced leaders (saddam's cadre), so the people running the place are the few remaining sunni politicians and greenhorn shi'a with little practical clout.

2) Kept Iran in check. Iraq and Iran were natural enemies, saddam maintained a military presence big enough to keep Iran back effectively.

So, yay he's gone, but you know what? He kept the power on, the water running, and the people could go about their business without much fear unless they were vocal dissidents.

The mid east has every reason to hate us now, but wait until you see what happens when we just arbitrarily leave without first ensuring SOME measure of stability, and public works that actually... well, work. If you think they're mad at us for our imperialism now, if you think you're actually in danger now, theres gonna be VERY MANY more disgruntled arabs when 2 million iraqis die because the completely clueless US representative bodies and new pres. candidates yank us out of there for no reason other than it's unpopular.

This is America goddamn it, the new president should first admit that this whole thing is a mistake, but we have to acknowledge that we are going to clean up the mess that WE FREAKING MADE. What a fall from grace we've had. It's like the day WW2 came to a close, everything just went to shit. I'm truly ashamed that this was allowed to happen at all, but I will be so much moreso if we just leave the place in shambles. What a terrible waste.

And that's it. That's mostly everything that will happen in the next five years. Unless Bush goes haywire and another 'terrorist attack' occurs right before his term ends, allowing him to exercise that nifty executive powers clause he's added. :/
 
Fuck that. Bush is a total trigger-happy hick. He needs to back off of Iran. He's going to be the reason for alot of deaths if he goes through with this Iran bullshit.
 
World War III

Mon, 2007-09-03

By David Swanson

source

The administration of George W. Bush and Dick Cheney is set on a course that leads directly to a third world war. And a third world war leads almost inevitably to most of us dying horrible deaths. And we're not talking about it.

The White House has made clear it is seriously considering attacking Iran with massive bombing aimed at destroying the nation's military and changing its government. Iran will certainly retaliate. If attacked, and possibly even if not attacked, Israel will join in the fighting. The resistance in Iraq will intensify dramatically. Controlling the oil of Iran and Iraq will be out of the question short of thorough genocide. Anti-American furor will sweep the Muslim world. The nuclear nation of Pakistan will be a prime target for an Islamic revolution.

If we don't have a world war on our hands immediately, one will be very hard to avoid. We will have taught every nation, again, that the only path to safety is acquisition of nuclear weapons. We will have isolated the United States from most of the world, including many of our traditional allies. Terrorist attacks against American targets will come, and the United States will retaliate, again, not with law enforcement but with additional aggressive warfare.

If the United States attacks Iran, we will be openly at war with the world in a nuclear age. If the thought isn't terrifying, something's wrong with our ability to fear. Our politics is almost always driven in the wrong direction by fear of the wrong things. I'd love for once to see fear knock some sense into us.

The founders of the United States feared these moments for us. To protect us, they gave Congress the sole power to declare war. The current Congress, building on the misdeeds of others in recent decades, has given up its power. In fact, we've reached the point where Congress cannot easily take it back. Were Congress to declare with a veto-proof majority that Bush must not bomb Iran, is anyone sure Bush would listen?

Back at the start of this Congress, eight months ago, some of the new committee chairs from the progressive caucus spoke on a panel organized by the Institute for Policy Studies. Congressman John Conyers, the new chairman of the House Judiciary Committee, said on this occasion that he would take up the impeachment of Bush and Cheney if they attacked Iran. Congressman Dennis Kucinich at the time was saying the same thing. He has since introduced articles of impeachment against Cheney (H Res 333) that include the charge of threatening aggressive war against Iran (which happens to be a crime). Currently 20 Congress Members support H Res 333, but none of them with any sense of urgency. None of them are lobbying their colleagues to sign on or to introduce their own articles of impeachment. Nobody in Congress, and certainly not the leadership, is pushing hard for impeachment as the means to prevent an attack on Iran.

But impeachment is the only leverage the Congress has over an outlaw executive branch. Conyers recently said that he opposes impeachment because he carries the Constitution in one hand and a calculator in the other, and he uses the calculator to tell himself he doesn't "have the votes" to pass impeachment. Of course, by that argument, he should take his name off his bill for single-payer health care, his bill for slavery reparations, etc. But, more importantly, an impeachment effort can serve a purpose short of successfully impeaching anyone. A serious movement to impeach Gonzales helped show him the door. A serious movement to impeach Bush and Cheney is the only way Congress can deter an attack on Iran or end the prolonged attack on Iraq. If articles of impeachment had 100 cosponsors, Bush and Cheney would understand that attacking Iran would move that number to 218.

Has Bush even told the Congressional leadership of his plans to attack Iran? If he has not, will they have the decency to feel indignation? And will they do so BEFORE the bombing? If he has told them, then Congressional leaders have a duty to the citizens of this nation to immediately expose and oppose such plans. Congress exists to determine our nation's course of action, not to be informed of it. Any member of Congress who has been informed of new plans for illegal war and not spoken out should be tried as an accomplice in war crimes.

As the White House continues to leak news of its likely attack on Iran, our demand must be for impeachment now, not after the slaughter when we have all been made less safe than ever. And we must not get caught up in the nonsense questions in the media over exactly who lied about exactly how many nuclear facilities in Iran. If possessing some particular number of nuclear reactors, or for that matter nuclear bombs, justified other nations in launching aggressive war, then any nation would be justified in attacking the United States. Nothing, in fact, can justify a war of aggression, legally or morally, because such a war is certain to be worse than whatever might be found to try to justify it.

We cannot, of course, be certain at this point that Bush and Cheney will attack Iran. Whether they do or not, the task of Congress remains the same: impeach these dictators and end the occupation of Iraq. But if our nation continues on this path of unchecked executive power and military aggression, the path of Afghanistan and Guantanamo and Iraq, then expanded war is inevitable, and that means war that eventually hits the United States. The clearest I can possibly frame our situation is as a choice between one word and another. We are unlikely to get neither or both. We are likely to get one or the other. Impeach or die
 
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