if god is omnipotent and omniscient

DRISKEY

DRISKEY

Active member
this is a brain buster for all you believers. i understand that catholics believe that god is omnipotent(has the power to do anything, omniscient(knows everything), and that humans have free will. so here it is:

IF GOD IS OMNIPOTENT CAN GOD:

make 2+2=5?

make someone else god, or as powerful as him?

make a rock too heavy for god to lift?

take away his own power?

secondly, if god is omniscient then god knows everything, which would include past, present, and future. if god knows the future then god knows everything that we are going to do. if god knows everything that we are going to do then we dont have free will, because our actions are already written down.

when i hear shit like this, it completely fucks with my head.

OOPS POW SURPRISE! OOOOOHHHHH!!!

-formerly known as publicenemy1023-
 
the whole past, present and future concept plays off on my theory of fate/destiny.

Looking back in time from the standpoint of the future, we will have done a list of things in a particular order. Whether or not we perceive we can control our actions we will pick whatever we pick. And looking back in time that means everything we will do has already been decided to an extent and in that respect I believe in fate/destiny.

Forgive me if I'm explaining this poorly, I'm not good at elaborating my theories.

We pay our debt sometimes.
 
assuming god was omnipotent:

could god make 2+2=5? yes

make someone else as powerful as him? yes

could he make a rock too heavy for himself to lift? what kind of question is that?

take away his own power? i'm sure he could

as far as the omniscient part... i dunno. we have free will. maybe he knows what we are going to do, but WE are the one's who made the choice to do whatever it is we're gonna do.

Or maybe not, whatever.

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Screw this I'm going skiing
 
^the rock question is the best one! if god can do anything then he would be able to make a rock too heavy for himself to lift up. but if he cant lift up the rock, then hes cant do everything

OOPS POW SURPRISE! OOOOOHHHHH!!!

-formerly known as publicenemy1023-
 
My theory is some guy wrote a book a long time ago making up stories and testaments then he hid that book someone found it a couple hunfred years later and Catholism was born!

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here's my opinion on it(i just thought this up in 2 seconds):

god is not a physical being. he's a spiritual one. so he doesn't have a body and, in fact, doesn't even EXIST in our physical world (except jesus, but that's a different story). so if he wants to lift a rock, he lifts it. period. Even if he made a rock with infinite mass, he would be able to lift it. And this does not mean that he isn't omnipotent. the only reason he can't make a rock he can't lift is because mass doesn't even MATTER to him. so it's not like he can't make a rock he isn't strong enough to lift, it's just that mass is an irelevant factor as far as God is concerned.

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Screw this I'm going skiing
 
NOW IT'S ITSANBUL NOT CONSTANTINOPLE!

NOW IT'S ITSANBUL NOT CONSTANTINOPLE!

NOW IT'S ITSANBUL NOT CONSTANTINOPLE!

We pay our debt sometimes.
 
^^ and yea that's the book theory is possible. But I think of it this way:

You can live a christian life, still have lots of fun in life and when you die, if nothing happens, oh well, nothing lost. If you go to heaven, great!

You can live a 'bad' life (using quotes for a reason) and when you die if nothing happens, of well, nothing lost. If you go to hell, oh shit...

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NoPoles: 'Firefox is the big up and comming browser. It's better than IE in just about every way.'
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Screw this I'm going skiing
 
Hell seems a little unreasonable, especially for a benevolent god. An eternity (infinity) of suffering for a few years of being an asshole. Doesn't sound very reasonable

We pay our debt sometimes.
 
I've already answered these questions 15 fucking times. One of the worst things about NS is that you can offer the utterly FINAL verdict on a question and have the same question be asked 2 weeks later. Annoying as hell.

5*****~~~~~~~~~~
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Current Reigning NS Idiot: ''why does this -julian- kid post so much of aj is he like your bestest friend? cuz it says u live in British Columbia, i think thats in like south america, and aj is from the states, in oregon' - wskikid102, Member # 59948
 
nope. but the accepted Catholic theory is that when you stand at the pearly gates, you judge yourself. and if you deem yourself worthy, you go to heaven, if you want to go heaven but don't feel worthy, you go to purgatory for a while and then go to heaven and if you reject God entirely you go to hell.

no cheating allowed either

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Screw this I'm going skiing
 
nope. they accept god as well. I think all religions are beleiving in the same god really, just different culture

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Screw this I'm going skiing
 
Fine. Here's the answer (which applies to all of those questions). AGAIN.

''Whatever implies being and nonbeing simultaneously is incompatible with the absolute possibility which falls under divine omnipotence. Such a contradiction is not subject to it, not from any impotence in God, but because it simply does not have the nature of being feasible or possible. Whatever, then, does not involve a contradiction is in the realm of the possible with respect to which God is omnipotent. Whatever involves a contradiction is not within the scope of omnipotence because it cannot qualify for possibility. Better, however, to say that it cannot be done, rather than God cannot do it.''

-St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologica, Vol. 1

In other words, the question of whether god can make a rock too big for him to lift is what you might refer to as a category mistake. It's a trick of language. Asking it is like asking for the name of a bachelor's wife, or what a round square looks like. It's not a limit on God's power that he can't do contradictory things; if he can make the rock, he can lift it. a lot of people dismiss this idea. They say 'Oh! Maybe God could just do something we can't understand or imagine, but if only we could understand it, we would see that he had made a round square.

Nonsense. Literally.

A square has straight sides. That's part of what it is to be a square. Round things aren't straight. If they were, they wouldn't be round. There is nothing deep here. To say that something is a round square is to talk nonsense. It means only marginally more than to say that something is a furpled burgledurff. God can't make a furpled burgledurff because it doesn't mean anything. God can't make a round square because what it means is incoherent. Nothing God might do would count as making a round square. And to say that all this is beyond our comprehension is simply wrong. It isn't beyond our comprehension at all that straight things aren't round. It is as obvious as things get. The point is, again, that it is no limitation on God's power that God can't do contradictory things. The reason God can't is that there is nothing that would count as doing them, so there is nothing there for God to do.

5*****~~~~~~~~~~
F*****~~~~~~~~~~
R*****~~~~~~~~~~
N~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
T~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Current Reigning NS Idiot: ''why does this -julian- kid post so much of aj is he like your bestest friend? cuz it says u live in British Columbia, i think thats in like south america, and aj is from the states, in oregon' - wskikid102, Member # 59948
 
^there we go

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Screw this I'm going skiing
 
Well powdercanada, I am a slightly evil man, I can't help that it's just too tempting to play with the emotions of the weak. On a side note I have generally good morals, although I don't practice relgion, pray to any gods (I was raised atheist) I don't deny the fact that one or more may exist. Hopefully if there is an afterlife god will cut me some slack, I mean he made me the way I am after all, right?

We pay our debt sometimes.
 
as long as you try to moderately good, i figure you'll go to purgatory for a while (wich is basically as fun as hell, but it's not eternal... apparantly you be there for hundreds of years...)

But i don't have a degree in theology, so don't take my word for granted.

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NoPoles: 'Firefox is the big up and comming browser. It's better than IE in just about every way.'
You heard it straight from the man kids, get Firefox.

Screw this I'm going skiing
 
on a side note... i'll probably end up in purgatory as well

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NoPoles: 'Firefox is the big up and comming browser. It's better than IE in just about every way.'
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Screw this I'm going skiing
 
i hope i can sleep tonight.... theroys scare me

Just because your hung like a moose doesnt mean you have to do porn...
 
complete and absolute separation from God (AKA pretty similar to hell)

it's like a 'cleansing place' to get ready for heaven if you aren't totally ready for heaven but not heading for hell. I have no idea how long you might spend there, but apparantly it's a long while.

Anyways, I'm gonna go out to get drunk and party (oh the irony) so have a good night all.

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NoPoles: 'Firefox is the big up and comming browser. It's better than IE in just about every way.'
You heard it straight from the man kids, get Firefox.

Screw this I'm going skiing
 
purgatory supposed to be a place that you go to if your not good enough for heaven but not bad enough for hell...and yeah i think you just are there for a while then you go to heaven

 
So you're not allowed to party according to the bible, I better not read this thing because then I would now how bad I am in gods eyes, which would make it worse. IGNORANCE IS BLISS LADIES

We pay our debt sometimes.
 
I wasnt aware that one meant all. I guess when you are that brilliant, you only need to answer one, and that is automatically the final verdict.

signatures are for pussies

 
^ adress J.D next time you speak to him! I will give you an example

'Hello lord J.D I seem to have bested you at the art of internet debating!'

We pay our debt sometimes.
 
Ok look, the rock question is bullshit and it is becasue of this reason, you are talking about one rock through the whole question, yes? Let's say he takes a rock and creates it so he cannot lift it, which satisfies the first part. Now assuming you are still talking about the same rock, he can then create that rock so he can than lift it afterwards his failed attempt thus showing that he can lift the rock that he created heavy enough so he couldn't lift it.

----2ond in Command of DANSA-----

To Huck. v. The act of throwing oneself off of a cornice, cliff, rock, or any other thing that results in an attempt to fly.

If you can't dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with bullshit.

GW Award December 3, 2004
 
The question lacks the element of time, which cannot happen in a question concerning an omnipotent being.

----2ond in Command of DANSA-----

To Huck. v. The act of throwing oneself off of a cornice, cliff, rock, or any other thing that results in an attempt to fly.

If you can't dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with bullshit.

GW Award December 3, 2004
 
^ on the fate/destiny issues if ur in highschool take thease too courses if ur school offers them,

introduction to anthropolight, scocioligy and phyciolighy (i dunno how to speel that word) and philosophy thease courses study why people do certin things.. its pretty damn interesting and may change ur thinking an a couple things this 'god' character does.. i personly don't belive in this figure.. so whne i am in hell all u angels can luagh at me for a having sex before marrige.

*~*cCr*~*
 
That last part was written by C.S. Lewis right?

'The true measure of a man is how he treats another who can do absolutely nothing for him.'
-Samuel Johnson

'I refuse to tip-toe through life just to arrive safely at the door of death'- Unknown
 


I love how he's like 'It's so aggrivating when I've answered these questions like 15 times' or something.

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Workers of the world unite! You have nothing to lose but your chains!
 
PS: Aquinas was a fucking moron

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Workers of the world unite! You have nothing to lose but your chains!
 
i don't know whether to label JD's post as brilliant or just plain bitter.

-Strode

Only in my sweetest dreams do my streams lack troubled waters, shallow pools full of shallow fools...
 
^or just plain old fucking common sense...

people having too much free time is what started christianity

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If it aint Gorilla, it aint Steeze

'and then he got bow wow and JDs number so were gonna go party with them this weekend' - ATLskier talk

Real life translation - 'and the he sucked off bow wow and JD for their number so were gonna go suck them off again this weekend' - 1080ryebread
 
Well since everyone is basically on their knees for somewhat obvious reasons, I will dare stand and pose another question. Let's say what he says is true as it does make sense, and lets also clear up that I am not an atheist but an agnostic. So yes, it is clear that it is a contradiction. However, saying that it is not possible and that it is, indeed a contradiction would imply that God has to abide by some sort of rules, presumably this would be universal, as if he/she/it would abide by at least one, then most likely all. However, it is also said that the human mind can not comprehend God. It is out of our capacity. Yet we realize that there is an undenyable set of rules and laws that govern all things physical, chemical and biological. Although we may not know all of them yet, they are certainly in our ability to be understood. Therefore, it would seem that God, as it appears also has to follow a set of rules, is able to be understood. I guess this too, is a contradiction is it not?

signatures are for pussies

 
I think we've already figured out that the bible contradicts itself

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If it aint Gorilla, it aint Steeze

'i got a nigroplasti, im good at basketball but now i suck at skiing' - friday01
 
'Therefore, it would seem that God, as it appears also has to follow a set of rules, is able to be understood. I guess this too, is a contradiction is it not?'

well, i am in no way at the level of JD, but God cannot do what is contrary to His nature, his definition, for example sin. so ya, he does have some rules, because one cannot do what is against ones natures, ones definition. the rock to heavy to lift, the burrito too hot for him to eat, the tabasco too spicy for him to have thing, is, as JD pointed out, contradiction.

i don't really get at what answer you want, but one, God, cannot do what is contrary to his definition, his nature, like sin: He is Godly, and therefore cannot sin. To sin would make him ungodly. Those are some rules to God, indeed.

but JD and CS Lewis destroyed the rock too heavy thing.

-Patty
Vis ton cassage et tais toi!

**Its NS... retards blend in. - J.D._May

**I need only to look outside to see the proof of God existing. - myself in response to asac saying he doesn't need Math to know God doesn't exist.

similarity does not equal relationship
 
Exactly. So if one set of rules is to be followed and are understood, then surely others must also be. Thus, making God understandable- something that is said to not be a characteristic of God. I already conceded the whole rock thing, so you don't have to tell it again.

signatures are for pussies

 
I thought it was a brilliant post because it simply got the point across.

Driskey, in posing this question you must first take a few things into consideration. God being omniscient, omnipotent, and omniprescent means that he is all knowing, all powerful, and present at all places at all times. We as humans are not so. We are finite, we are linear and know time as having a beggining and an end. We are born into this world at x date and we will die at x date. Because of this, our understanding is limited to that which we know, which we can see, and that which we can touch. It is simply not possible for us to grasp the infinite nature of this.

The problem with these questions is that you are trying to place something that is infinite and limitless into a box that has limits - our understanding. That is where these questions fall short and are contradicting. It's not that God can't do it, it's just that even if he were to.. would we understand? (made clear with the round-square analogy)

As far as the free will question. That is something that I have struggled with for years. It's a completely viable, legitimate question. I've always viewed it like this. Picture God as being a kid playing with a toy train set in his room. God made the train, he made the track, and he made everything around it We are the train, and that traintrack represents our life. We approach a fork in the road. God created that train and he knows exactly which way it is going to choose. We may feel that we have the choice to pick which route, but do we really?

Something I have been thinking about though is that we do have free choice and free will to pick a route. He does know which route we will choose, but leaves it to us to do it. Even though he knows, the ball is still in our court.

 
It always takes long to dance around a question/problem without really answering/solving it.

signatures are for pussies

 
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