Ideal Conditions To Avoid Avalanches?

[freeballer]

Someone mentioned something similar to this in an above post. I have only been to the Canyons when my family goes west and I guess we only stayed on the lower parts of the resort. Since all of you guys have been giving me all this info I really see how dangerous it could be out there.

It sounds more to me like you want to ski some steeper terrain with better snow. You don't have to go to the backcountry for that. Coming from out East, stay in-bounds but try out Jackson, Alta, Snowbird, Whistler, Squaw, Telluride, or Crested Butte. You'll have a blast and it will be so much different than what you are used to, even at the lower part of Canyons. You'll have fun wherever you go and it will be a lot different than what you are used to. If you really like it, move out West for a few seasons and cut your teeth on steep terrain. Then you can take some avy courses and meet a nice group of people that might take you out to the BC when you are ready. For me, that was the end of March my first season. The BC is really something that you should ease into, and not really for someone coming out West for a week, unless that's a guided type of thing like heli-skiing and Silverton and the like. Don't worry too much about the backcountry, just enjoy the larger, steeper Western mountains on your trip. Hopefully, you'll get a serious pow pow day when you are here.

 

[J.D.]

Holy fuck at that Loveland video.

Can we do away with the myth that Slackcountry is the same as backcountry?

It's not just as dangerous. It's more dangerous.

By mechanically skipping over the path you'd otherwise have to take up the hill, first of all you often START your BC journey above the tree line in the highest risk section of the hill. But more importantly, you miss all sorts of opportunities to assess snowpack conditions and evaluate where you're going and discuss things with a group (I h no evidence button think it's safe to say that more solo skiing in avy terrain is resort accessed compared to the trailhead). Not to mention the diminished awe for nature that psychologically results from feeling like the resort and therefore civilization is "right over there". There are myriad factors, psychological and otherwise, that make Slackcountry skiing effectively more dangerous.

A slight more controversial statement perhaps would be that the guys who are willing to hike 6 hours for their turns are less likely to be the type of people who cut corners and are therefore more likely to be prepared, conscientious users of backcountry terrain and have done their due diligence. There are good counter arguments to that, but it's plausible.

 

[SpookyCat]

A slight more controversial statement perhaps would be that the guys who are willing to hike 6 hours for their turns are less likely to be the type of people who cut corners and are therefore more likely to be prepared, conscientious users of backcountry terrain and have done their due diligence. There are good counter arguments to that, but it's plausible.

How is that controversial at all? Its scientifically proven that lazy, fat ass gapers hate putting effort into anything at all. If they're not willing to put in an hour or two of a more relaxing version of hiking into making turns, what makes people think they'll spend money on taking a class or on safety gear? Its like being surprised that fat fucks who frequent fast food joints don't take the time to look over the nutritional value of their food.

 

[.Morton]

By mechanically skipping over the path you'd otherwise have to take up the hill, first of all you often START your BC journey above the tree line in the highest risk section of the hill. But more importantly, you miss all sorts of opportunities to assess snowpack conditions and evaluate where you're going and discuss things with a group (I h no evidence button think it's safe to say that more solo skiing in avy terrain is resort accessed compared to the trailhead). Not to mention the diminished awe for nature that psychologically results from feeling like the resort and therefore civilization is "right over there". There are myriad factors, psychological and otherwise, that make Slackcountry skiing effectively more dangerous.

A slight more controversial statement perhaps would be that the guys who are willing to hike 6 hours for their turns are less likely to be the type of people who cut corners and are therefore more likely to be prepared, conscientious users of backcountry terrain and have done their due diligence.

I can definitely see your point with this. Thanks for all the help.

 

[gnarballsianm]

My family and I are going out West this spring break and we have gone before but this year I would like to get into the backcountry. As I am learning more about skiing backcountry I have come to learn about how dangerous avalanches are. My question is what would be the ideal conditions to avoid avalanches. I know the snow can cause avalanches when the top hardens over the soft bottom. So should the snow be warmer, or is coldest possible better? Or should it be in the middle?

Ski In Peace to the skiers that were killed in the recent avalanche. Ronnie Berlack and Bryce Astle. No one deserves to die that young.

Don't get yourself killed, take an avy course, well worth your time, look out for wind loaded surfaces, watch out for heavy snowfall on top of variable conditions, this will create a loaded face and could fracture without any action on the part of us skiers, this is most common where I am from and it is how many skiers die annually throughout the NW mountains.

Avoid low tree cover zones and ski with others at all times, taking turns, watching each other make it to a pre planned safe zone near a clump of trees on a ridge, safely in a zone that is less exposed and will create a barrier and a get out location if an avy does happen. Study the layers before skiing extensively in the backcountry.

Ski with people who know the areas well before jumping in with your buddies. Use all the gear all the time (atgatt) make sure you have a beacon, prob, shovel, the ten essentials(map, compass, matches, lighter, knife, first aid kit, sun pretection / heat blanket, and energy bars), and a pack that allows these items to be easily accessible in emergency situations.

To answer your question though, outside temps don't matter for the avy conditions at that time. You need to look at previous days and understand avalanche forecasts online and once you are at the mountain. These variables can change throughout the day. I have been in a few avy situations and many times I have felt like the day was perfect, we checked in the morning, the snow was looking stable but little did me and my buddies know that we had nearly been killed by the Tunnel Creek Avalanche that took the lives of 3 skiers a few years back.

Another time, we were skiing rooster comb at Stevens and we came to a ridge and my brother took a cut as a precautionary measure and was almost taken away by a 2' deep slab, if he hadn't grabbed a small tree he probably would have been buried.

Morally of the story, be safe, know before you go and don't make life more difficult for experienced backcountry skiers, patrollers, and your family by getting yourself hurt or killed. Don't just follow my words but go out and take the avy course and learn from true experts and the guys who my have to save your life if you aren't smart.

 

[californiagrown]

To answer your question though, outside temps don't matter for the avy conditions at that time.

Da Fuck?

 

[casual]

Da Fuck?

He's sort of right. At any given second, the current ambient temp is borderline irrelevant. You're balking because you know that temp gradient both within the snowpack itself and over the course of a few hours/days is hugely important. So, he's kind of right. The current temp doesn't mean a whole lot by itself, but it can be a huge clue/factor in decision making if there's been rapid warming, or maybe overnight it was cold and dry as fuck, and now it's lunchtime the next day, and it's warmed a little and it's dumping. Then, sure, temp is a clue as to what may be happening.

The OP asked some version of "Is it better to go in the bc when it's cold or warm?". That's an unanswerable question, because temperature at any given moment isn't nearly as important as dozens of other variables.

OP, it's less about the temp on a given day, and more about what the temp trend has been, and what that means for the pack. When you hear people discuss temps, (unless it is spring corn harvest season and people are on the sunnyish aspects more and then they're actually talking about temps), they're usually talking about temp gradient within the snowpack, between specific layers. It's known as a lemon or red flag if two consecutive layers have a temp difference greater than 1 degree celsius. That'd be like having two consecutive layers having greater than 1 step in hardness (fist to one finger or even pen for example).

 

[RubberSoul]

Yup...the snowpack I work on every day......shit is spooky. I have some gnarly pics of shit we have controlled and a couple natural slides, but I'm kind of afraid to post them.

i think you should definitely post them

 

[gnarballsianm]

He's sort of right. At any given second, the current ambient temp is borderline irrelevant. You're balking because you know that temp gradient both within the snowpack itself and over the course of a few hours/days is hugely important. So, he's kind of right. The current temp doesn't mean a whole lot by itself, but it can be a huge clue/factor in decision making if there's been rapid warming, or maybe overnight it was cold and dry as fuck, and now it's lunchtime the next day, and it's warmed a little and it's dumping. Then, sure, temp is a clue as to what may be happening.

The OP asked some version of "Is it better to go in the bc when it's cold or warm?". That's an unanswerable question, because temperature at any given moment isn't nearly as important as dozens of other variables.

OP, it's less about the temp on a given day, and more about what the temp trend has been, and what that means for the pack. When you hear people discuss temps, (unless it is spring corn harvest season and people are on the sunnyish aspects more and then they're actually talking about temps), they're usually talking about temp gradient within the snowpack, between specific layers. It's known as a lemon or red flag if two consecutive layers have a temp difference greater than 1 degree celsius. That'd be like having two consecutive layers having greater than 1 step in hardness (fist to one finger or even pen for example).

Exactly what I mean, sorry if I wasn't as clear, I figured I was running on ski would cut it short. I then went onto say that the variables will change throughiut the day, I apologize if I wasn't clear.

 

[BengoUnchained]

Sorry to keep this thread going but I keep feeling the need to respond. Thanks for the info and the website. Your profile says you're in Ontario which if I am correct is toward the east side of N. America. Do you know any places maybe in VT that would possibly do AST 1 or would I have to go out west?

I haven't looked around for courses in VT but here's a link for a list of guide services and schools that offer AIARE courses around Mt. Washington.http://www.mountwashingtonavalanche...anche-courses-in-the-mount-washington-valley/

I've been slowly researching and acquiring gear over the past year and am finally signed up for a course at the beginning of February and I'm so pumped.

 

[casual]

This'll give you an idea. This was just after Xmas, storm snow --> followed by some consistent 30 mph winds with gust as high as 70mph = gnarly scary windslabs that step down to the ground because the usual aspects are rotten for the bottom 25-30 cm (of at the time a pack that was something like 90 cm deep......fuck). This is a SE aspect, I think probably 35-38 degrees on avg. with a slightly steeper start zone. There's a rock reef/feature at the bottom of the shady part of the crown face, you can see that it broke on an invisible anchor/and along the shallow part of the pack along a scoured rock reef, so about as typical for the area as you can get. You can see the chair for scale on the left. Crown height approx. 8ft at deepest.

The CAIC video was filmed in the mine dumps, out a BC gate above our lift 1, that is E-NE, so not exactly the same, and we haven't had quite as dramatic results on most aspects with our ECT's, nothing Q1, sub 10, and with that kind of cash register jump out anyway, but everything is so fucking weird right now, it's just kind of eerie.

Now, everything is so fucking bullerproof and impenetrateable, it's like, "now what?". Any real storm cycle, particularly Jan cold cycle, isn't going to bond at all, and I feel like very bad things could be coming.

Please. anyone in the area, be really fucking careful out there.[/quote]

 

[casual]

 

[californiagrown]

This'll give you an idea. This was just after Xmas, storm snow --> followed by some consistent 30 mph winds with gust as high as 70mph = gnarly scary windslabs that step down to the ground because the usual aspects are rotten for the bottom 25-30 cm (of at the time a pack that was something like 90 cm deep......fuck). This is a SE aspect, I think probably 35-38 degrees on avg. with a slightly steeper start zone. There's a rock reef/feature at the bottom of the shady part of the crown face, you can see that it broke on an invisible anchor/and along the shallow part of the pack along a scoured rock reef, so about as typical for the area as you can get. You can see the chair for scale on the left. Crown height approx. 8ft at deepest.

The CAIC video was filmed in the mine dumps, out a BC gate above our lift 1, that is E-NE, so not exactly the same, and we haven't had quite as dramatic results on most aspects with our ECT's, nothing Q1, sub 10, and with that kind of cash register jump out anyway, but everything is so fucking weird right now, it's just kind of eerie.

Now, everything is so fucking bullerproof and impenetrateable, it's like, "now what?". Any real storm cycle, particularly Jan cold cycle, isn't going to bond at all, and I feel like very bad things could be coming.

Please. anyone in the area, be really fucking careful out there.

View attachment 747755

Patrollers should do weekly(or at least after every storm/storm cycle) blogs like this at every mtn. Its cool to see the job these guys do, and a good reminder of danger lurking out there...everywhere. And the more you are exposed to material like this, the better off you are.

But honestly, its also because its fucking cool. think about if patrollers wore gopros, and showed highlights of their bombruns, filmed at sunrise. that would look so cool. do a short narrative of the cool stuff/ incidents/nutty weather that went down. throw up some pictures, avi dogs etc.

 

[casual]

I hear ya, snow science is really fucking fascinating stuff, and I would love an inside look at how some of the biggest and baddest patrols take care of business. I've watched a bunch of stuff on youtube. A lot of the shit is really lame, and literally makes me cringe, but I ran across a few that were actually pretty cool. Shit, I wouldn't want to post anything of myself because I'm afraid people such as yourself would find all the mistakes I make on a daily basis haha

On a tangent, OP and other guys/gals interested in devouring all things snow/avalanche related, there's also really good instructional/tutorials on youtube about everything from how to dig different kind of pits, do various tests (Reutsch blocks are fucking fun!), and even some route selection type stuff. Obviously I'm not advocating getting "educated" via you tube, but it's still great info, and a great way to be thinking the right way and to stay "fresh" if you're not able to get out and physically work those skills you learned through AIARE 1 or whatever. Even if you're totally BC naive, there's no harm in digging a pit just to do it and doing tests (In a flat as fuck area faaar away from avy paths of any kind) just to see.

Oh yeah, I tried to quote RubberSoul in that fail of a pic/post about conditions around Loveland, that's where that came from.

 

[SpookyCat]

View attachment 747755

Pft, a 12-year-old doing a pizza coulda outran that thing.

 

[casual]

Pft, a 12-year-old doing a pizza coulda outran that thing.

Yup, it's a mini path. I picked that photo because I don't think it can really get me into any trouble.

 

[Literature]

Thread is dildos without video. BTW this was from Loveland Pass 2 days ago.

Holy faceted doom, batman. You want a Q1? That's the video.